Question for James V. Kohl

[jvkohl]

There are no exact effects of -rone, since the effect depends on conditioning across a lifetime of experience (different contexts). Predictably, however, since men produce more -rone, it is perceived as a masculine substance--even if it is not \"consciously\" perceived. So, what you can expect from -rone is an \"air\" of enhanced masculinity.

From 1993 on, I experimented with -rone by itself; never even considered adding a fragrance (which would have been very unscientific). By itself, -rone elicited all the responses that I expected.

What makes you think that -ol doesn\'t have any odor? It\'s frequently described as musky, which explains why it can be attractive when consciously perceived. However, even when it\'s not consciously perceived, it still has been shown to alter levels of luteinizing hormone in women, which makes it a very likely human pheromone.

I\'ve repeatedly said that the VNO is of little or no consideration; it\'s basically a marketing tool.

Even conditioned responses occur in context; the reason to use a carrier fragrance is to help ensure the right context. Since fragrance is commonly used (because it has pleasant effects), it is best to include a pheromone in a fragrance to get the best of both conscious and unconscious perception.

Good luck with product development [img]images/icons/wink.gif[/img]

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Thanks....The reason I did not think -nol did not have much fragrance is because the bottle of womens with 11 mg. in it is by me pretty undetectable. I\'ve been sniffing so many phero\'s lateley my receptors are probably burnt out. Have you been following the huge thread of -dienone. What\'s your take...honestly....I\'m ready to throw in the towel. But I do not want to be a quitter and pass up a chance to have something. I\'m going to use it for my own use I know that. I\'m also going to give a try of straight -rone, which should be here tomorrow.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

posted March 03, 2002 23:38
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Why is it that everyone has such a small ratio of Androsterone when mixed with others like -nol, or maybe even -none. say like 4 parts -nol and one part -rone. What are the exact effects Androsterone aree supposed to have. I\'m haveing difficulity finding fax on the net and a little conflicting info here. Kohl, would you care to expound on this. I read something about it in one of your post but it was a while ago. Can it be used alone. What would be the effects.
P.S. since -nol doesn\'t really smell is a cologne necessary at all. Should have the exact same effect since it is supposed to be subconscious if it used the VNO, but Kohl would say it is a conditioned response to scent so would you need a carrier?

[**DONOTDELETE**]

I remember at least one person said that they couldn\'t get any results with -rone combined with anything (i.e., NPA and PI worked for him, but when combined with AE, nothing). That was interesting, and I was wondering if anyone else had that experience.

Important question for James -- Where in the literature has -rone been found in human sweat? You can\'t argue for a biologically-based phermone that\'s not in significant concentration in sweat.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

TRUTH,

Now, although many people seem to think that the very idea of us human types putting out scent-messages to each other is ridiculous, there is a fair amount of indirect evidence to back it up. Humans have a specialized type of sweat gland (apocrine sweat glands) located primarily in the axillae (AKA armpits), the anogential region, on the areole of the breast, and in the face and scalp. They secrete steroids related to the sex hormones: notably androsterone and androsterol. Bacteria on our skin break these compounds down into odiferous substances. The secretions from these glands are similar to compounds that are believed to influence behavior in non-human mammals. And the glands are only active after puberty, and become inactive in post-menopausal women (Doty, 1981). It\'s no surprise that when faced with evidence supporting the existence of human menstrual synchrony, scientists went looking for armpit pheromones.

null

[travis]

James,

Isn\'t it older people produce lower \"rone\", shouldn\'t you add more \"rone\" to SOE for older guys?

Travis

[jvkohl]

Thunder,
Individuals can be anosmic to particular chemicals (or supersensitive); you can\'t be sure whether a compound has a detectable odor unless more than a few have tried it.

Yes, I\'ve followed the thread on -dienone. The fact that I didn\'t go for a patent on androsterone--even though I had the research to back up claims, and it is unique--tells you a bit about my thoughts. Basically, a patent entitles you to get into an expensive legal battle that you may not win, either as plaintiff or defendent. Besides, in the fragrance industry, results matter more than patents. If you think you can get (and hopefully show) results with -dienone, you should pursue it. One caveat, it took me nearly 10 years with androsterone to be confident enough and motivated enough to go commercial.

Truth: I\'m sure there will be plenty of people who can\'t get results with -rone, or any other pheromone--alone or in a mix. The majority, however, will get the enhanced masculinity effect.

You\'re attempting to add to the definition of a pheromone: \"You can\'t argue for a biologically-based phermone that\'s not in significant concentration in sweat.\" Erox/Pherin says their vomeropherins are found in skin cells, and don\'t focus on concentration at all.I don\'t know how they arrived at the amount to be used in testing. Regardless, here are the citations that either mention or lead to the conclusion that androsterone is in sweat.
Koelega, H.S., & Koster, E.P. (1974) Some experiments on sex differences in odor perception. Annals of New York Academy of Sciences, 237,, 234-246

Smith, K.U., Thompson, G.F., & Koster, H. (1969) Sweat in schizophrenic patients: Identification of the odorous substance. Science, 166,, 398-399.

Koster, E.P., & deWijk, R.A. (1991) Olfactory adaptation. In: Laing, D.G., Doty, R.L., & Breipohl, W. (eds.) The Human Sense of Smell. (pages 199-216) New York: Springer-Verlag.

I\'ve forgotten whether there was direct mention of androsterone in sweat, but the biological argument for it being there is scientifically sound, since it is a by-product of andrenal androgen metabolism; found in urine--and because the metabolic byproducts of hormones that are found in urine typically also can be found in sweat.

Dehydroepiandrosterone (DHEA) levels decline in a straight line with age. DHEA is the precursor to androsterone. Thus -rone should decline with age. It\'s probably a good idea for older men to use more -rone, but I haven\'t seen any studies that state this. Some things you must be intuitive about--like the entire mammalian model of pheromone-hormone-behavior interaction that I presented in 1992, and extended to humans. There was almost no data that allowed extension to humans, but it was extremely clear that the biological argument was sound. Much of this same approach applies to -rone, though it may take another 10 years to prove anything beyond a scientific doubt.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Thanks for your time J.V.K. I know pursuing all these threads does get very timely.

[jvkohl]

Thanks for posting your question, directly. I\'ve followed the -dienone: raw form thread with some interest, and see that you have also spent much time with Q+A and data/opinion gathering. Erox/Pherin\'s patent pursuits are justified by the seminal research their associates have done. Without their lead, we would be several years further behind in attempts to apply mammalian pheromones to human behavior than we are now.
Regardless, you and others seem to take the approach that -dienone is a long sought after aphrodisiac that will have such effects as to be truly marketable. There is simply no justification for this approach; if there were, you can bet that Erox/Pherin would be taking it. These folks aren\'t stupid; Berliner\'s put together an excellent team whose work helps to ensure ongoing funding (not from government grants). What we\'ve seen with recent studies are vague implications that -dienone alters autonomic function/behavior, and activates different parts of the brain (hypothalamus) in men and women. It\'s a long way from such studies to making claims that -dienone alters sexual behavior in a manner designed to get us guys laid more frequently--or by better quality ladies.

Overall, I think you\'re spinning your wheels, though I do admire your concentrated efforts. Still, if you do a Medline search on -dienone, you\'ll turn up researchers like Martha McClintock, Noam Sobel, and I. Savic, who have studied effects of -dienone in controlled settings. None of these folks would even attempt to introduce a product based on any findings to date, or to initiate a patent app. Frankly, we all know of the need to come up with something different--like androsterone for example. [img]images/icons/shocked.gif[/img]

Don\'t mean to be too cocky, just cautionary. This kind of thing takes years, not days/months, of concentrated effort. But if you want to skip all that, there\'s no reason not to introduce whatever product you want--with whatever you want to put in it--to the market. Take Winnifred Cutler\'s approach for example; she\'s told people for years that she can\'t tell them what\'s in the Athena products, due to patent application restrictions. Bull sh--! If she told us what was in it (I\'m pretty sure it\'s dehydroepiandrosterone [img]images/icons/laugh.gif[/img]HEA), most of us would have a good laugh, since DHEA has about as little potential as a human pheromone as any other random chemical produced in the body. Besides, what\'s the hold up with her patent, since Berliner\'s group has had repeated success? Also, I\'m still waiting to see Winnifred meet with any of her peers at an olfactory conference, or publish in any of the olfactory research journals. It won\'t happen, since she can\'t buffalo colleagues. As for the general public; they\'ll bite on just about anything--depending on how well it\'s marketed. \"Just do it\" comes to mind, or begin the research necessary to pursue the pheromonal knowledge you\'ll need to develop a unique product.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

The only reason I can think of Pherin not pursuing the marketing of -dienone to attract women is the social controversy it might generate. They are trying to do serious research, and they don\'t want to taint their image.

As far as whether -dienone can work as an aphrodisiac, most of think it should just be real-world tested. No need to wait 10 years. Right now, we have an \"n of 1\" with Thunder, and the feedback from members who used an unknown concentration of -dienone in Realm for Women.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Well, the poster said that he got good results with -none without -rone. However, any -rone in the mix gave him nothing.

[jvkohl]

Mixing makes it very difficult to predict affect. I\'m still not in favor of usine -none, especially in a mix with -rone and -ol, but to each his own.

[a.k.a.]

James,

I agree that SOE works best on its own. ( At least for me. Others are having better luck mixing it.) But why don’t you just try some -none; just to see how it works?

I’d recommend trying it on its own at first. Concentrations of .25mg/ml or less, three small dabs (about what it takes to wet the tip of your finger), with a nice cologne.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Yeah, we want James to try -none, then give us his opinion!

[jvkohl]

no, no, no; no -none for me guys. You ain\'t going to get me to go out smelling like that stuff [img]images/icons/mad.gif[/img] [img]images/icons/wink.gif[/img] Circle 4 (pig) farms are the main employer in this area; and I certainly don\'t want to smell like one of the guys from the farm--or give the ladies at the local pub the impression that they\'re still on the job. I\'d rather mix up some copulins and go out smelling like a pussy (sorry for the slang, ladies; this is guy talk, here)! Besides, I think the -ol breakdown to -none in SoE, has sensitized me to -none, and sometimes I even find an unpleasant after odor to SoE, my own product. Still, it\'s effective so I\'m not complaining. Actually it\'s nice to be able to smell what some of you have reported. Still can\'t smell it in the 1mg/ml androsterone/mineral oil mix I\'ve been using for experimentation though--so it\'s pretty clear that the -none odor is coming from the breakdown of -ol, not the breakdown of -rone.

This just in: people who live down-wind from pig farms have increased incidence of depression. Who knows, you guys wearing -none containing products may be contributing to a nationwide increase in depression. Horrors; can you imagine if this gets out--\"Hey you, yeah you wearing those pig pheromones; get out of here--you\'re depressing me. Come back when you get some of Kohl\'s SoE.\"

Hope all of you realize I\'m just having fun here; yes I do have a sense of humor. On a more scientic note, can you imagine what would happen if I used -none and found it to be effective? How could I explain the effect? It might take me another 10 years to figure out why it worked, if it worked--and now that I\'m single again, I don\'t have as much time for research pursuits. So, I\'ll leave the -none use to you (anyone who thinks they get a better effect than with the -ol/-rone combination). If adding -none gets better results, I\'ll let you revel in your success, while sticking to what I know best (and at least can explain). No phenomena for this researcher.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

As a pheromone researcher, James, I think you\'re obligated to try -none. Stick to a small amount, and you won\'t smell like a pig farm. And if it does work, I think you\'ll find a way to explain it, eventually.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Yeah but truth, another ten years? Sheesh, I\'d use it and have fun with the effects, but if ya\'ll wanted me to spend ten years to explain a bit of fun, I\'d say, \"Oh yeah it was the touch of -rone...\" [img]images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Mixed with Curve cologne it actally gives off a sort of questionable odor (meaning, when I have women smell my neck to test they say wow, that\'s like nothing I\'ve ever smelled before, but I like it. They it\'s really unique and it gives them a sort of mystery about the whole thing. A women trying to figure you out, in my opinion, is one you are still dating. When the complete story is told, it old, and on to the next.

[Irish]

Isn\'t -nol also a pig phero? More prevalent in pig saliva than -none? Several times more prevalent?? If we\'re worried about smelling like pigs we might have to get rid of the -nol too?

I don\'t really care what we have in common with pigs, as long is is a natural product in humans, and there\'s some evidence it\'s an attractant. None of these -rone -nol -none smell good to me, I imagine they\'re all repellent at high enough concentrations, like some fragrances added to perfumes. I\'m not using them as cologne - I\'m trying for a different effect, and will mask their offensive conscious smell if that\'s what it takes.

We need to focus on what works in the field mode. By my thinking that would be what a healthy young male in his prime would present, perhaps boosted in strength as much as possible before od or cologne coverage failure.

[Buddydust]

Hey James,I have a couple of questions of my own,bare with me here,I\'m still a newbie.I was wondering if you could get \"hits\" with AndrosteRONE by itself? And if you OD on it,will you still smell like BO and cat piss?

[**DONOTDELETE**]

I agree with irish we need to try different things and what works in the field for the majority works better than science labs but the science labs need to research just to provide this new stuff so its a two way relationship everyone contributes to the development no matter how wacky it may seem (most people used to think pheros were wacky as well.)

[jvkohl]

-ol, unlike -none is always reported to smell musky, rather than urinous. That\'s why I think that -ol, though associated with pigs as is -none, is the most likely of the two choices. Besides, -ol, unlike -none also has been shown to alter levels of a key hormone (luteinizing hormone) in women. A recent study by a colleague in Vienna also found that -none was perceived negatively no matter what stage of the menstrual cycle women were in--albeit it was the least foul smelling when women were near ovulation.

I suspect that a little -none might be good
for older guys, but it depends on what kind of physical shape they\'re in. At 50 y/o, I\'m more muscular than I\'ve ever been 165lbs and 13% body fat, so I don\'t think -none would do anything but hinder my chances with a woman of my choice.

But regardless, all my talk of -none is simply my opinion; I haven\'t researched its effect. I have done extensive research on -rone, and others have done the work on -ol. I play it safe, and my results keep me happy.

In any case, I did not make my decision to incorporate only -ol and -rone in SoE, without considering many factors. And there are some things that I don\'t think I need to experiment with--especially when the studies already have been done--like with -none. I do not doubt that some of you have had good effects with -none, but I wouldn\'t wear it and can\'t advise others to include it. Obviously, I\'m very biased. But, if -none is effective, I suspect that the breakdown of -ol to -none will have significant impact with users of SoE. Still waiting for reports on this--there was talk of layering, which I think would be effective, since the -none would be the latter signal, after a woman already was hormonally primed by the -ol and the -rone.

Don\'t know if an OD on -rone is likely, but it probably is in high concentrations, so I wouldn\'t use -rone straight from the chemistry set, unless I was going to a smoke-filled bar--even then, it\'s iffy.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

James, You sound like you are trying to take credit for \"inventing\" the first commercial product to contain androsterone - \"The fact that I didn\'t go for a patent on androsterone--even though I had the research to back up claims, and it is unique--tells you a bit about my thoughts.\"

But in fact Stone Labs had Alter Ego had already been out for well over a year..?.. [img]images/icons/crazy.gif[/img] Sounds more to me like you couldn\'t have gotten a patent even if you wanted to because THEY already had a product in the marketplace, and maybe Stone Labs would have been taking you to court?

Just trying to keep everyone honest here [img]images/icons/wink.gif[/img] Let\'s not forget where the Androsterone idea originally came from....maybe we should be getting some input on the use of Androsterone from them?

[jvkohl]

Cruiser,

I began experimenting with androsterone in 1993, thought of patenting it in 1994-2000;
heard that Stone Labs was using it in 2001.
Talked to Phil Stone a couple months ago, and can assure you I was the first to think of androsterone as a human pheromone. Still, I was surprised to learn that Phil already was using it in a product, since there was absolutely nothing in the scientific (or any other literature) that would suggest it\'s use. Phil said he figured it was the next logical step because one article mentioned it smelled like -ol and -none. This was very subjective. I had already collaborated on two studies trying to take a more objective approach, and last April proposed and presented that androsterone is a human pheromone at the Association for Chemoreception Sciences annual conference in Florida.

Trying to keep everyone honest is good, but unless you know the entire story, that\'s a tough task. I can assure you that everyone I know, or know of, only began looking closely at human pheromones after 1992, when I had already presented (in detail) at the Society for the Scientific Study of Sexuality. I think that gives me the right to make lots of claims. It\'s a long way from merely using a chemical in a pheromone product to a scientific explanation for it\'s use. Re: the thread on Athena: that\'s what bothers me about Winnifred Cutler. She uses DHEA, hides the fact that she\'s using DHEA, and never offers any explanation for what is used; how it\'s used, and why it should be effective.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Mr. Kohl,

I\'m not sure what you\'re trying to say here, but I\'ll let you in on a little secret: the only reason I have any loyalty to Stone Labs was because I participated in a study they did back in 1998 at my college using Androstenone in a sex attractant product (the prototype for what became Alter Ego) - that was my first exposure to pheromones and the power they posess. I have personally met Mr. Stone a number of times - the guy was absolutely amazing. Though I don\'t think he had a doctorate at the time, he DID hold hold something like five different degrees, including an MS in some kind of polymer chemistry. He actually worked in the same field as Berliner doing some kind of drug encapsulation work back in the mid-90\'s. I know for a fact that his team had been studying it for at least two years prior to doing the study, and it was hardly done on a whim. I know they must\'ve spent thousands on the study I was in, as we each got paid $70 for our time, and there were over one hundred participants, and a dozen interviewers.

It\'s a long way from merely using a chemical in a pheromone product to a scientific explanation for it\'s use -

WOW! [img]images/icons/shocked.gif[/img] that\'s pompous! Just so you know, I\'m going to pop off a little note to Stone Labs so Mr. Stone can read this one for himself. You make it sound like the company that brought us Alter Ego and AFA is nothing more than a perfumery! Unbelievable. I must say, you\'re input now has a whole new meaning to me.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

in some cases here in the forum there\'s been a few reports of ODing with S.O.E.. That makes me very cautious when wearing it.

Is it the rone causing this effect?? Or what could be causing this.

i think the theory for the making of S.O.E. is great.

I like to wear products that i won\'t have to worry about ODing. Products like APC, PF, and Attraction. Can i add S.O.E. to my list???

[Bruce]

Buba,
I honestly think you can put SOE on your safe list. I was one of the people posting SOE OD, and I think the reason is that I was lulled into a feeling os safey from the lack of an immediate \"BO\" type smell in the SOE product as it comes out of the bottle. When you use Edge for example: \"what you smell is what you get.\" With SOE and with AE to a lesser extent the BO smell comes out LATER after you have had it on your skin. It sort of \"sneaks up on you\" and that is the special problem with SOE, especially if you put it on warm parts of the body. I put some on my wrists about 4 hours ago and I can just smell a nice warm musky smell coming up through the fading fragrance. On the occassion of my famous gym OD, I smeared it on my armpits like a deodorant. Now that was working great for about an hour and almost suddenly I started stinking to high heaven. That is something to watch out for. What we used to call the \"creeper\" effect (back in the 60s [img]images/icons/wink.gif[/img] )
Bruce

[Bruce]

Cruiser,
I am quite sure James didn\'t mean any disrespect towards Phil. The three of us have all spoken with each other ad nauseum on the subject, and neither James nor I were aware of Phil\'s research with aRONE. I\'m glad you brought it up, but I don\'t think Phil is going to cross James off his Christmas list over it. We simply did not know about the research and stand enlightened.
Regards,
Bruce

[Watcher]

Im staying out of this one dont want to get banned again. All i know is rone works so keep using AE and SOe they work great and you get small amounts of none in there as well.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

To Bruce

so your saying that S.O.E. turned to an O.D. because you used it on your skin?? which the nol would be converted to none, right??

so i should be safe with it on my clothing with any amount i put on.

maybe we just discovered something here. nol on clothes to keep it as nol. and none on skin to enhance the effect. anyone have inputs on this??