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  1. #1
    Moderator idesign's Avatar
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    Default New President

    visit-red-300x50PNG
    Barack Obama must be

    congratulated on his achievement. There are very few men who could rise to this stature from any background, much

    less as a member of a minority group. Agree or disagree with his policies or ideology, we have to recognize the

    importance of what he's managed to do, which is to be the first to overcome what has been - all too recently - a

    cultural bias against anyone not white and privileged.

    Its less than 50 years ago that I remember seeing a

    "white only" water fountain in a drug store in rural North Carolina. I remember forced busing of black kids into

    the Virginia school system where I went to high school, and hearing talk about "bringing in trouble". They were

    right, there was trouble.

    Now we have a President who may not have been a part of this ugly past, but has become

    a symbol of what's been overcome. Many young people who voted for Obama have no clue about what his election

    means. But there are many Americans who suffered the awful stigma of race who can now celebrate a kind of

    coming-of-age, the arrival of a welcoming national sensibility in the same country which enslaved their

    fathers.

    This has as much, if not more, to say about America as a Democracy. One can gush about freedom and

    opportunity and seem naive. One can also speak about and believe these things and be right. There's no shame in

    patriotism, and it need not be blind. The things that make one proud to be part of a country that gives opportunity

    equally necessarily grows from trials and failures. Its a testament to the world that America has formerly denied,

    and now given this opportunity.

    There's no lack of criticism and sarcasm that could accompany this post, most of

    which I've already though of. I just wanted to feel good for a few minutes, and honestly so.


  2. #2
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    I like what you said.

    I

    voted for a change in history. No one that has been president since my first day of breathing, has impressed me. A

    lot of things has changed, but there are still ugliness amongst us.

    I know there were a lot of people that

    called in sick on 5 November 2008. They'll just have to deal with it until someone kills him, or the next election.

    It's so terrible that people chose to pass their ignorant seeds on to their supposedly loved ones. Just the other

    day, I was talking to one of my cousins that delivers furniture for different stores. He had to deliver a bed to

    this elderly couple (late 60S he said). When he walked into their bed room ... there were statues of black people

    hanging from trees. He didn't say anything, but when he had finished putting together the bed. The old man asked if

    he'd drop his old bed off at his brothers house. He told him no. Left the other bed in the front yard and got the

    hell out of there. I've said all that to say ... some changes are worthy, lots are not. Passing on hatred is

    IGNORANT, and there are LOTS of IGNORANT people strill roaming this Earth. I have to deal with that, and I accept

    people for being who they are ... even if they're IGNORANT. I use to hate those people ... black and white. Now ...

    I feel sorry for them.

    This is one major step taken ... one more to go. Will I see a woman president before I

    die? I hope so, but I doubt it.

    The only difference besides skin color between the two, is that one has more

    experience in lying. Please excuse my ignorance when it comes to politics, but that's how I feel.

    For those of

    you that may have that sickening feeling in your stomach, and may have not be able to sleep for a while ... it's

    going to be alright.

    God blessed America! Will anything GOOD/DIFFERENT out of the ordinary come from it? Time

    will tell. If it doesn't ... what's new with newly elected presidents?
    Never argue with ignorant people! They pull you down to THEIR level, and then they BEAT YOU with experience. Who said that!? I don't know, but tis gold I tell'ya!!

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    Phero Guru Rbt's Avatar
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    I'm waiting for all the whiners to

    complain how a black got into a high office BEFORE a woman did.
    The opposite of love isn't hate.
    It's apathy
    .

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rbt View Post
    I'm waiting

    for all the whiners to complain how a black got into a high office BEFORE a woman did.
    I wouldn't be

    shocked; annnnd they're not whiners, Rbt ... they're ignorant people, but it's what they were taught (black and

    white), and didn't learn any better, so ...

    It's a touchy world, and sometimes I feel so ashamed. My son sent

    me what I considered a bit racist text on 5 Nov, which pretty much said that people were pissed. I text him back

    this exact message. "When will the ignorance stop? Probably never. Pass it on." It hurts me to know

    he thinks that way, but I'll continue to attempt to wipe that ignorance from him until I'm plucked from this

    Earth.

    They're going to be a lot of uncomfortable people walking around for a good while. I just hope he lives

    through his term, but you never know. They're are some hateful & evil people on this big round ball.
    Never argue with ignorant people! They pull you down to THEIR level, and then they BEAT YOU with experience. Who said that!? I don't know, but tis gold I tell'ya!!

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    Moderator belgareth's Avatar
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    I really didn't want to see

    Obama president but not because of his color. Hell, I'd have voted for Condolesa Rice in an instant. I just

    disagree with his politics and think he's a bad choice to lead this country. I did not vote for McCain either but

    would have preferred him over Obama. However, the deed is done for good or ill and only time will tell if he was a

    good or bad choice. What I'd like to see now is all the stupid, devisive crap stop. We are still one country and

    one people. We need to stop fighting each other and start working on fixing the problems, together.
    To compel a man to subsidize with his taxes the propagation of ideas which he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical.

    Thomas Jefferson

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    Moderator Mtnjim's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by belgareth View Post
    What I'd

    like to see now is all the stupid, devisive crap stop. We are still one country and one people. We need to stop

    fighting each other and start working on fixing the problems, together.

    It's not going to happen.

    The Republican** FUD team is already getting started (remember the Clinton's "vast right wing conspiricy"?). Oddly

    enough, they are starting out by going after Palin.



    **By "Republican" I'm not refering to the guy next

    door who happens to vote Republican, but to the professional whack job destroy the government and let the

    corperations run America Washington machine "Republicans".
    Freedom begins when you tell Mrs. Grundy to go fly a kite.
    --Lazarus Long

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    Doctor of Scentology DrSmellThis's Avatar
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    Congratulations are in order,

    not just for Obama, but for all the people in the world, who are mostly celebrating at this moment. This is a

    planetary event, even to the extent that living here to some extent obscures the effect.

    This seems the biggest

    presidential election in my lifetime. I cried like a baby when the victory was announced. That doesn't mean I agree

    with Obama on policies that much more than most other politicians.

    What I liked about Obama, and the reason I

    voted for him without hesitation, was more about various intangibles, than about policy or ideology. Other than his

    antiwar stance and openness to some form of public role in health care, his politics seemed rather corporate and

    middle of the road to me; and even though he has a track record of voting against Bush on most things. On the other

    hand, I could never have voted for McCain, as he seemed to have a lot of the same faults as Obama, only worse given

    he voted with Bush so much on so many cringe-inducing things; without the intangibles.

    I'm quite sure I will

    continue to disagree with the Pres Elect on certain issues. But certain things transcend ideology or typical

    political issues for me.

    First, I believe race relations will never be the same again in this country after

    Tuesday. It's a new day, as dramatic as it sounds. The whole American community and culture is being transformed;

    is going to look significantly different, due to the psychological impact.

    There is going to be a huge leap

    upward, and toward a tighter culture. Crime is going to go down significantly, for example, as hard as that might be

    to believe, because of greater inclusion. Quotas are going to become less of an issue. Prejudice will no longer be

    so socially supported. The empowerment people of color (and other kinds of minorities, given the inclusive feel) are

    going to be experiencing will change everything, on every level, and in every circumstance where race is involved.

    Prejudice is still a huge issue in so many silly and destructive ways, but this is a real change, and feels

    indescribably good for a vast array of people. It is an emotional catharsis that is perhaps unmatched in my lifetime

    (and way surpasses the general emotional impact of the first moon landing, which is perhaps the next closest

    example, or perhaps the end of WWII and its "happy days are here again"). I love the fact he is AA, and is such a

    great role model for African Americans.

    Second, people everywhere in the world are celebrating (OK, maybe not the

    Russian president yet, but he wasn't overjoyed with us anyway, and the wounds are still deep and unhealed with him

    over Georgia), and are absolutely opening their hearts to the US again, similar to the way it was just after 9-11

    (though certainly with a note of "show me" skepticism). The bump in good will and preparedness to cooperate is

    palpable. The message this sends is one of inclusion, openness, and more. Obama's style of diplomacy is going to be

    radically different and more effective than what we've experienced. People everywhere are already looking intently

    to the US for more substantive world citizenship, and they are feeling very optimistic in this regard. It's a small

    world now in every way, to the point of virtual collective consciousness (literally, in the case of the web, but

    also less tangibly); and the old ways and attitudes do not work.

    Third I really like his young attitude and

    consciousness. His whole level of awareness and world view just seems way more in touch with the consciousness that

    has evolved in much of the US, for lack of better terms. There is a sort of "contemporary reasonableness" and "in

    touch" quality (in touch with how thoughtful people are thinking these days) that is extremely tangible for me and

    many others. You don't at all feel like you are talking to someone from WWII, with that world view, for

    example.

    Fourth through eighth, I also love his reasonableness; his calmness, his judgement, and his

    intelligence. I think that he will excel as a "generic problem solver", wherever applicable (as opposed to knee-jerk

    ideological "solutions" to everything, for example.). I think he is generally trustworthy, for a politician; and

    will have the American People's Back behind closed doors (factoring out ideology). He is going to do his best to

    solve problems in a practical manner, genuinely accepting input form broad sources, and in the context of sincere

    dialogue. He has a certain level of integrity, and is genuinely passionate about his service. Yet he is not going to

    be afraid to compromise his presumed ideology to solve a problem in a timely, practical manner.

    People everywhere

    in the world are already trusting him way more than one would expect of a typical new president.

    Further, he a

    gifted politician to the extent that no one else since JFK was; and I am well aware of the excellent skills of

    Reagan and Clinton. He probably surpasses JFK in this regard too. Far from some superficial quality, this charisma

    and collection of inspirational, motivational, people, and verbal skills is going to pay very real dividends in

    countless locales around the world, as well as at home. We need a little infusion of spirit and hope. We really,

    really need it desperately. And he brings it.

    We are going to experience an almost immediate leap in

    international relations, in line with a shrinking world and the spirit of the times.

    He is going to be committed

    to a mastery of subject matters, and will have the mental energy to adequately study issues before acting.

    The

    last intangible I should mention is simply the American people. People are clamoring for real change, and are ready

    to accomplish some of that, even if they have to drag Obama along kicking and screaming. The movement he brought

    together clearly transcends him, and is itself the biggest force for change.

    None of these personal and/or

    intangible qualities have anything to do with his ideologic politics, from my perspective. Yet for me, they define

    him.

    Colin Powell called Obama a "transformational figure", which was right on. I reacted to Obama's candidacy

    similarly to General Powell, who also was moved by the intangibles..

    There is a certain amount of ideology and

    political positions on issues I am willing to trade for certain "mega issues" or process issues that are important

    to see in politicians for the present and future. I believe Obama has many of these important intangible issues

    covered, enough to where he won my support.
    Last edited by DrSmellThis; 11-08-2008 at 12:07 AM.
    DrSmellThis (creator of P H E R O S)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rbt View Post
    I'm waiting for

    all the whiners to complain how a black got into a high office BEFORE a woman did.
    He's biracial,

    actually.

    I don't care what color or gender he is. What's somehow more important (to me) is whether or not he

    will be able to put his money where his mouth is.

    We'll see what happens.

    Oh, and good riddance, GWB.
    Last edited by Holmes; 11-09-2008 at 12:29 PM. Reason: omission
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    Bad Motha Holmes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrSmellThis View Post
    Colin

    Powell called Obama a "transformational figure", which was right on. I reacted to Obama's candidacy similarly to

    General Powell, who also was moved by the intangibles...
    "Transformational figure" is sometimes, as

    history has shown us, a dubious distinction.

    Let's hope the President-elect is truly transformational in the

    best possible sense, for everyone.
    If a guy's a cocksucker in his life, when he dies, he don't become a saint. - Morris Levy, Hitmen

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    There's never been a president

    that has done as he promised. And many things Obama has promised are bad things, in my opinion. The biggest and, in

    my opinion, stupidest mistake he is going to make is attempting to nationalize health care. Have you ever seen a

    governemnt program that really worked and was cost effective? Like in EVERY country where healthcare has been

    nationalized, cost will soar for everybody while quality goes in the toilet. I already buy almost all medical

    supplies overseas and the practice is going to soar, as will the practice of the wealthy going elsewhere for medical

    care, just like it is already happening in other countries with nationalized healthcare. The poor will get poor care

    and the wealthy will go elsewhere.
    To compel a man to subsidize with his taxes the propagation of ideas which he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical.

    Thomas Jefferson

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    I'm always amazed that the

    level of thought and conversation on this board surpasses any other board I post on.

    "We need a little

    infusion of spirit and hope. We really, really need it desperately. And he brings it."

    That's a great

    thought and I hope it comes to pass. While I didn't vote for President-elect Obama I have a level of optimistic

    hope that has been missing from my life for a good long time. I told Sue, my girlfriend, that my litmus test for

    him was written in stone and, just today, Obama has stated he will close down Gitmo, so he's passed my test, I'm

    quite proud of him already. That policy has been the absolutely worst thing I've seen my country do in very recent

    history.

    Rumsfield and Rove are being dogged by ordinary citizens whereever they show up, the same will

    happen to Bush and Cheney.
    There is a cure for electile dysfuntion!!!!

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    Phero Guru Rbt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Holmes View Post
    He's biracial,

    actually.

    I don't care what color or gender he is. What's somehow more important (to me) is whether or not he

    will be able to put his money where his mouth is.

    We'll see what happens.

    Oh, and good riddance,

    GWB.
    I probably should have put "black" in quotes. Kenyan father, Hawaiian mother. But there is such a

    tendency, especially amongst those with the highest degree of bigotry IMO to skip the details and go for whatever

    negative description they can find to bolster their "cause." I've already seen the news storied about cars with

    Obama bumper stickers being vandalized with "W" scratched into the paint (a representation for "W"hite power?).

    Never mind that some of the world's great civilizations were ruled by "non-whites" (and the citizens weren't white

    either...).

    One thing for sure. Obama is about the most charasmatic (soon to be) president we've had in quite

    a while. But that "halo" could prove to be more hinderance than help as he is forced to battle this country's

    problems without appearing to favor any one group over another. Those that think all their problems will go away

    with a sweep of his legislative pen are in for some disappointments and disillusionment.

    Time will tell.
    The opposite of love isn't hate.
    It's apathy
    .

  13. #13
    Moderator idesign's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rbt View Post

    One thing

    for sure. Obama is about the most charasmatic (soon to be) president we've had in quite a while. But that "halo"

    could prove to be more hinderance than help as he is forced to battle this country's problems without appearing to

    favor any one group over another. Those that think all their problems will go away with a sweep of his legislative

    pen are in for some disappointments and disillusionment.

    Time will tell.
    Have to agree with this Rbt,

    especially now that the press has shifted from surrogate press offices to emulation factories. One more tome

    portraying Obama as FDR, JFK, or Lincoln and I think I'll literally get sick. A more accurate comparison would be

    Don King. A media frenzy billing a man who has DONE NOTHING as some kind of savior is ludicrous at best and

    downright dangerous when you consider the power the media has on simple minds, which we apparantly have in bumper

    crop numbers.

    To those who are smart, and only misguided, don't be fooled unless you want to be. A hope in

    gov't is no hope at all. It seems that Obama is all about gov't, with an ideology that offers no incentive for

    anyone to produce anything other than policy based on dependence, and its sad result. I guess the comparison to FDR

    could be somewhat accurate.

    Every time I think of Obama the word "collective" inevitablly comes to mind. Does

    that sound dangerous to anyone but me?


  14. #14
    Moderator idesign's Avatar
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    After a few cabinet picks we can

    see that Obama responds well to his handlers. This is getting old before its even started. I can only hope that

    Obama is the yawn before waking up again.

    But I'm too cynical.
    Last edited by idesign; 11-29-2008 at 11:13 AM.


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    Phero Guru Rbt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by idesign View Post
    After a few

    cabinet picks we can see that Obama responds well to his handlers. This is getting old before its even started. I

    can only hope that Obama is the yawn before waking up again.

    But I'm too cynical.
    Hey, this is US

    "politics as usual." Did you really expect anything substantially different? Bush has been reacting to his "powers

    behind the throne" for the past 8 years, just like just about every other President I can remember.

    The only

    real positive I'm seeing from this at the moment is the sigh of relief from the rest of the world that Bush and his

    cronies are on the way out. We here may not see much diff, but the effect this election is having on the rest of the

    planet seems to be positive, at least for the moment. Count what blessings we are able to get.
    The opposite of love isn't hate.
    It's apathy
    .

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    Quote Originally Posted by idesign View Post
    After a few cabinet picks we can see that Obama responds well to his handlers. This is

    getting old before its even started. I can only hope that Obama is the yawn before waking up again.

    But I'm

    too cynical.
    After the cabinet names started coming out, The Who's Won't Get Fooled Again

    keeps playing in my mind. Meet the new boss, same as the old boss. That's not to say that I think he's like

    Bush, but that his platform was "change" and he's using so many Clinton veterans.

    I voted for Bob Barr, who

    got a big 300+ votes in my county. Have voted Libertarian for President since I was old enough to vote in the late

    1970s. (Chuck Baldwin, Ron Paul's recommendation got seven votes.) But now that Obama's elected, I wish him the

    best (and for the U.S. too). It is historic that he was elected, we've come a long way with racial issues. And at

    least maybe he'll bring more respect from other countries than Bush did. I hated Reagan at the time, but Bush

    really made me appreciate what Reagan was compared to the Presidents we've had since.

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    (off topic)Hey IPB, long

    time!!
    Good to see ya, hope to see more posts from you!!
    (/off topic)
    Freedom begins when you tell Mrs. Grundy to go fly a kite.
    --Lazarus Long

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    Quote Originally Posted by InternationalPlayboy View Post
    After the cabinet names started coming out, The Who's Won't Get Fooled

    Again
    keeps playing in my mind. Meet the new boss, same as the old boss. That's not to say that I think

    he's like Bush, but that his platform was "change" and he's using so many Clinton veterans.
    Ayup, you

    seem to have a good grasp. Doesn't it say somewhere in the bible about "Nothing new under the sun"?
    To compel a man to subsidize with his taxes the propagation of ideas which he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical.

    Thomas Jefferson

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    Moderator idesign's Avatar
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    I mostly agree with you guys,

    once Obama started getting his briefings from various agencies and the White House he made a major shift from his

    campaign rhetoric. Can you say "reality check?" We'll have to see what he does once he gets inaugurated.

    One

    thing I notice, his appointments are pretty much eliminating the Dem field for 2012. Clinton, Biden, Richardson et

    al are not going to run from Cabinet positions against an incumbent, unless Obama flops really bad. Which he won't

    if he just plays President. The financial and housing markets will be back up in 4 years if Obama keeps his hands

    off as much as possible.

    As for "world opinion". I read a lot of European sources these days, and now that the

    initial adulation is waning, I'm seeing a lot of "lets see" attitudes. Lets face it, Obama has to actually do

    something now, and I'm not sure that he can live up to his self-aggrandizing preaching.


  20. #20
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    Default housing market

    "The financial

    and housing markets will be back up in 4 years if Obama keeps his hands off as much as possible."

    There's a

    plan afoot already to get the housing market going by introducing a fixed 4.5% loan for homebuyers. (lead article

    on Huffingpost.com today). Given there's a real glut of homes on the market with no buyers approaching, it sounds

    like a good plan to me, especially were it to be extended to existing homeowners and not to speculators and with no

    provision to "take some equity out".
    There is a cure for electile dysfuntion!!!!

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    Boy, did I pick the wrong time to go

    into the spec home business. :-)
    Actually, it's not quite so bad here in Eugene as in the rest of the US. I

    heard that about the loan rates improving. Kind of weird that the whole mess got kicked off by the lack of loan

    availability, and now nobody wants to buy noway nohow, and lenders have nobody to lend to.
    To enjoy good health, to bring true happiness to one's family, to bring peace to all, one must first discipline and control one's own mind. If a man can control his mind he can find the way to Enlightenment, and all wisdom and virtue will naturally come to him.

    - Buddha


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    Phero Guru Rbt's Avatar
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    Bruce: if by "spec" home biz you

    mean more or less custom "special built" type thing you may end up better off than others.

    I've been seeing in

    some of the biz mags that one of the few areas that seems to be doing well even now is anything that "builds to

    order." People are getting so tight that they no longer want to buy "off the rack," getting stuck with paying for

    things they don't want just to get the things they do want (like when buying a car off the dealer's lot).

    The

    custom sneaker/athletic shoe biz is supposedly booming (where you can design your own color combinations etc), and

    things like Chase's "build you own credit card" are supposedly doing well too. It's also said that this is a real

    boon to American businesses, as the custom stuff is usually made "locally" and not imported (too expensive to

    ship).

    Like most anything, it will be those who can adapt best who will survive.


    .
    The opposite of love isn't hate.
    It's apathy
    .

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    Default gas prices

    dropping too are

    helping. If you don't get laid off, those extra gas bucks will help a lot.
    There is a cure for electile dysfuntion!!!!

  24. #24
    Administrator Bruce's Avatar
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    I had to look it up to make sure of

    the origin of the "spec" in "spec homes", but it seems to come from the word "speculate". In any case, the builder

    builds a home without having a buyer, spec-ulatiing, that he will be able to sell it to someone at a profit. So,

    this is something different from a custom built home "to order" where you have the buyer all lined up and he tells

    you exactly what he wants before you even break ground. In my case, I was hoping/expecting to have a buyer on board

    before I got to the part where you pick out the flooring, paint, tile, cabinets and other kitchen stuff etc etc. ,

    but as has been oft noted "the best laid plans of mice and men oft go astray" eh?

    B
    To enjoy good health, to bring true happiness to one's family, to bring peace to all, one must first discipline and control one's own mind. If a man can control his mind he can find the way to Enlightenment, and all wisdom and virtue will naturally come to him.

    - Buddha


    Yoga in Eugene
    Fair Trade crafts from Peru

  25. #25
    Moderator idesign's Avatar
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    That's what we mean by "spec"

    house in this neck of the woods too. I used to do a ton of spec houses in years past, but in the last 2 years

    almost nothing. As a coastal/resort demographic our market rose and dropped earlier than most. Now 75% of

    everything I do is high-end remodel, the remaining 25% high-end custom homes, fitting right in with Rbt's point.

    Its a nice niche to be in. I'm a kitchen/bath/office etc designer/dealer and my average job price has risen

    dramatically while total sales have dropped slightly. The good news is that profitability has increased. Gotta

    love the rich, they keep us small peanuts players going.

    In former days the contractors I did business with did

    just what Bruce described, and pre-sold houses in time for color/material selections, and made more money on

    upgrades. Now they're either out of business or holding or renting their properties at a loss.

    Hope things are

    looking up in your market Bruce.
    Last edited by idesign; 12-05-2008 at 05:22 PM.


  26. #26
    Moderator idesign's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by koolking1 View Post
    "The

    financial and housing markets will be back up in 4 years if Obama keeps his hands off as much as

    possible."

    There's a plan afoot already to get the housing market going by introducing a fixed 4.5% loan for

    homebuyers. (lead article on Huffingpost.com today). Given there's a real glut of homes on the market with no

    buyers approaching, it sounds like a good plan to me, especially were it to be extended to existing homeowners and

    not to speculators and with no provision to "take some equity out".

    That plan is still open to debate,

    and who knows where the final plan will go. Like KK said, a big part of the problem of this plan is new buyers v.

    existing owners. And as Bruce touched on, there's not a lot of willingness for anyone to act in the home market

    now. The current plan disqualifies refinancing of existing mortgages, which is both good and bad, depending on how

    viable the refinance is. Which is pretty darned hard to prove to the banks these days. The main problem with this

    whole gov't bailout scenario of gov't. They don't do anything right.

    Unless your assets are $700 billion

    and/or irresponsibly unlimited. If you have those kind of funds you can tell anyone you want to go to hell, then,

    after mismanaging your public trust, sanctimoniously shift blame for the problem and find new and more creative ways

    to keep your position.

    Offering a plan to new buyers at historically low rates might sell some homes, but then

    again might exacerbate the problem that exists. After all, most of the housing problems we have now is low rates,

    gov't programs (see Freddie and Fanny, see Chris Dodd) and easy money driving unqualified buyers into the

    market.

    All of that is moot if you consider the inevitable outcome of the plan. The US gov't will have de facto

    ownership of private homes. This is so far beyond the Freddie and Fanny bailouts (bad enough) and is part of a

    dangerous trend toward gov't ownership of private assets either through loans or direct investment. An ugly door

    was opened when the financial companies were given carte blanche to gov't (our) funds to save their asses. The

    message was sent that access to the public (our's again) debt is available to the rich and poor alike.

    Responsibility has long left gov't, and now business, at our own behest.

    I don't like it one bit, any of

    it.

    Don't even get me started on the Detroit (read Union, read private entitlement) problems. Or Organized

    Labor's (read "show me the money") drive to eliminate private voting for membership. Who wants the 9.99 DVD

    bargain bin to be 20.99?
    Last edited by idesign; 12-05-2008 at 08:18 PM.


  27. #27
    Moderator belgareth's Avatar
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    As you may have guessed, I was

    and am opposed to the bailouts as another screwing of the taxpayer and government boondogle. Below is another

    example. Bank of America gets $25 Billion while the workers get locked out and screwed. And people wonder why I am

    so negative about the government that we have and will continue with the next person in office:

    Angry

    laid-off workers occupy factory in Chicago


    By RUPA SHENOY, Associated Press Writer Rupa Shenoy, Associated

    Press Writer 1 hr 7 mins ago
    CHICAGO – Workers who got three days' notice their factory was shutting its

    doors have occupied the building and say they won't go home without assurances they'll get severance and vacation

    pay they say they are owed.
    About 200 union workers occupied the Republic Windows and Doors plant in shifts

    Saturday while union leaders outside criticized a Wall Street bailout they say is leaving laborers behind.
    Leah

    Fried, an organizer with the United Electrical Workers, said the Chicago-based vinyl window manufacturer failed to

    give 60 days' notice required by law before shutting down.
    During the peaceful takeover, workers have been

    shoveling snow and cleaning the building, Fried said.
    "We're doing something we haven't since the 1930s, so

    we're trying to make it work," Fried said.
    Protest organizers said the company can't pay employees because its

    creditor, Charlotte, N.C.-based Bank of America, won't let them. Crain's Chicago Business reported that Republic

    Windows' monthly sales had fallen to $2.9 million from $4 million during the past month. In a memo to the union,

    obtained by the business journal, Republic CEO Rich Gillman said the company had "no choice but to shut our

    doors."
    Bank of America received $25 billion from the government's financial bailout package.
    "Across cultures,

    religions, union and nonunion, we all say this bailout was a shame," said Richard Berg, president of Teamsters Local

    743. "If this bailout should go to anything, it should go to the workers of this country."
    Outside the plant,

    protesters wore stickers and carried signs that said, "You got bailed out, we got sold out."
    Larry Spivack,

    regional director for American Federation of State, County and Municipal Employees, Council 31, said the peaceful

    action will add to Chicago's rich history in the labor movement, which includes the 1886 Haymarket affair, when

    Chicago laborers and anarchists gathering in a square on the city's west side drew national attention when an

    unidentified person threw a bomb at police.
    "The history of workers is built on issues like this here today,"

    Spivack said.
    Representatives of Republic Windows did not immediately respond Saturday to calls and e-mails seeking

    comment.
    Police spokeswoman Laura Kubiak said authorities were aware of the situation and officers were patrolling

    the area.
    Workers were angered when company officials didn't show up for a meeting Friday that had been arranged

    by U.S. Rep. Luis Gutierrez, a Chicago Democrat, Fried said. Union officials said another meeting with the company

    is scheduled for Monday afternoon.
    "We're going to stay here until we win justice," said Blanca Funes, 55, of

    Chicago, after occupying the building for several hours. Speaking in Spanish, Funes said she fears losing her home

    without the wages she feels she's owed. A 13-year employee of Republic, she estimated her family can make do for

    three months without her paycheck. Most of the factory's workers are Hispanic.
    To compel a man to subsidize with his taxes the propagation of ideas which he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical.

    Thomas Jefferson

  28. #28
    Moderator belgareth's Avatar
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    INTERESTING

    FACTS ----- NOTICE LINK
    AND

    MAP
    AT BOTTOM


    Some unreported stats about the

    2008 election

    Professor Joseph

    Olson of Hemline University School of Law, St. Paul , Minnesota

    ,

    points out some interesting facts concerning the

    2008 Presidential election:


    -Number of States won by: Democrats: 20; Republicans:

    30

    -Square miles of land won by: Democrats: 580,000; Republicans: 2,427,000

    -Population of counties won by:

    Democrats: 127 million; Republicans: 143 million

    -Murder rate per 100,000 residents in counties won by:

    Democrats: 13.2; Republicans: 2.1

    Professor Olson adds: "In aggregate, the map of the territory Republican won

    was

    mostly the land owned by the taxpaying citizens. Democrat territory

    mostly

    encompassed those citizens living in rented or government-owned tenements

    and

    living off various forms of government welfare..."
    Olson believes the United

    States is now somewhere between the "complacency

    and apathy" phase of Professor Tyler's definition

    of democracy, with some forty

    percent of the nation's population already having reached the

    "governmental

    dependency" phase.
    *******************************
    [IMG]http://www.pherolibrary.com/forum/cid:874E992D-E6B0-

    4651-9791-819CC849543C[/IMG]
    Notice that

    only in the states of Alaska and Oklahoma : All counties were won by McCain/Palin.


    The original posting with this

    information is below this Newsweek article at this link:

    h

    ttp://www.newsweek.com/id/163337
    .





    To compel a man to subsidize with his taxes the propagation of ideas which he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical.

    Thomas Jefferson

  29. #29
    & Double Naught Spy InternationalPlayboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mtnjim View Post
    (off topic)Hey IPB, long time!!
    Good to see ya, hope to see more posts from you!!


    (/off topic)

    Thanks Mtnjim, I was doing most of my posting at work and they are monitoring

    computer usage more and also blocking sites. I can no longer get into my meditation teacher's website there as

    it's considered "occult/alternate spirituality." Can still get to Christian websites though.

    The talk about

    the housing market reminded me of something I've noticed on TV. The Discovery channel had a show, "Flip This

    House," where they would feature people who buy fixer-uppers and try to turn them around for profit within a few

    weeks. The show's real estate agent who was kind of the resident expert now has a new show in the same time slot,

    where existing homeowners make home improvements to try to get a better mortgage or sell it outright.

    And as

    my remarks about "same as the old boss," I read a column recently by a conservative writer that says not to let your

    guard down. Though Obama has surrounded himself with old school politicians, he will still be the one making the

    final decisions. So they may be camoflage to hide his socialist agenda.

  30. #30
    Moderator idesign's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by InternationalPlayboy View Post

    And as my remarks about "same as the old boss," I read a column recently by

    a conservative writer that says not to let your guard down. Though Obama has surrounded himself with old school

    politicians, he will still be the one making the final decisions. So they may be camoflage to hide his socialist

    agenda.

    Interesting remarks. Your "same as the old boss" comment would be true no matter who the new

    Pres. would be. Political realities at this level will override the ideology of even the most ridiculous of zealots

    once they understand that the world is not a static set of assumptions.

    The danger with Obama is that he's a

    completely unknown entity based on an unaccomplished past. If you consider his campaign rhetoric he's an

    unthinking panderer at worst, or a skillfully shifting "finger in the wind" politician at best. He's shown the

    qualities of both, but not much else. His much vaunted intellect is not in evidence, indeed, he seems to be

    robotically setting up the next Clinton/Bush admistration, if that makes any sense, and I don't see anything good

    coming from anywhere.

    He's going to have a big problem with someone qualified willing to accept CIA. He

    burned those bridges with Holder as Attorney General. Maybe Powell, but its a glaring hole in Obama's Nat'l

    Security admin, for good reason, and there must be some soul searching going on in some quarters.

    One big danger

    lies in the Obama/Reid/Pilosi triumvirate. In this scenario, one could even picture Obama being a moderating

    influence on Congress within a brotherhood of thieves. One can only hope, but its not me.

    An interesting

    aspect of all this is the press. If anything, they deplore being proven wrong, and their selling their souls to

    Obama may turn ugly if things don't improve. At least that would be entertaining while eating beans and rice.


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