Androstadienone raw form found

[**DONOTDELETE**]

I have seen no used product shop that you spoke of in the forum Bruce.

I have purchased about $185 dollars in the products at love-scent but have not had that great of results yet.
Usually I get intrigued with something, obsess about it and after a month or so forget about it because I have studied so much about it there is nothing else to learn.

I have been reading all there is about Androstadienone. There is quite a controversy. People with different invested interests involved( money ). I read the patent for realm and some research and think that it does need to be tried and not let go as Kohl suggests. I have just ordered a 5 mgm powder form of 4,16-androstadien-3-one from steraloids. They will ship it to a private party if it is not a controlled substance. How should I mix the stuff, with ethanol. I want to hear from Bruce on this. I will post this in the forum.
What mixtures and such. If you do not feel qualified to answer could you find someone with more chemical knowledge than I to help. I don’t know if I’m the first to try this but like I said I am intrigued and have to know. This was an email I sent bruce but I would like feedback from all. Thanks, Thunder

[ February 18, 2002: Message edited by: Thunder ]

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Great Thunder! Someone actually got the -dienone from Steraloids. So, how did you place the order? They gave you no hassle? Does it only come in powdered form, or can they mix it in ethanol for you? I think it\'s about $60 for 5 mgs, right? That\'s in the ballpark of what we\'re paying for pheros here.

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I just called and asked procedure. Credit Card billing questions. Oerdering confirmations. They seemed a little 3rd world in terms of professionalism and voice accent. When I ordered they asked for my research group. I said \"why do you not sell to the public ?, it is not a controlled substance.\" They said no it is not controlled but they were just wondering if I was with a group or not. They were not open today but someone took my card info and made me fax them a copy of the exact order codes billing address, shipping address, name and number. They said they would start to process it tomorrow. Mind you I have not recieved it yet but it looks very promising. I also asked for a ETA on delivery, which I will hopefully know tommorow. It took a bit of research to get the exact right compound as there are many androstadien combonations in molecular structure. The right one according to all the research done is 4,16-androstadien-3-one.
This is the one Realm has a patent on. But if I\'m right only on the fragrance mixed with it. I believe I read that also from another post on the forum to. I don\'t want to plagiarize. Yes for the 5 mg it was $60 for 10mg it was $110. They had bigger amounts available as well. I\'m not rich and have spent a lot of money on other none, nol, rone products already and I really do not know how much to use. If I don\'t hear from anyone how much to use and what to mix it with my first idea was to mix a little into my Andro 4.2 since it has an enormous amount of alcohol in it already. Thoughts?
Oh yeah, only in powder form.

[ February 18, 2002: Message edited by: Thunder ]

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Thunder have you tried stone independent research labs on this they supply perfect ten alter ego PPA i think to this site also they may be able to tell you some more we have james kohl here but not phil stone although i think bruce has a direct link to this guy as he orders hes products from the wholesaler. As far as androstedienone it should work but as you said finding it can be diffucult and bruce is worried about suppling it as far as legal concerns over patents etc. But i dont know about the powdered form but you could try mixing a little small amount in with youre andro 4.2 to see if it will work. Id be interested to see how it worked and also if you were successful in mixing it straight in also keep the forum updated as to youre results.

Also thunder what sort of results and products have you tried from this site what amounts etc some of us may be able to help you out some more in fine tuning the ratios applications etc.
Keep us posted [img]images/icons/laugh.gif[/img]

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Yes, I also found the androstadienone through a little searching around on Steraloids.com, so that\'s how I knew the price. I think 5 mg is a good quantity to start with. There are some guidelines in the Realm patents on how much to use in a fragrance (of course, these concentrations are part of the patent!). I think the range was from about the concentration of NPA mixed in cologne 1:5 to 1/20th this concentration. As androstadienone is a strong odorent (like androstenone), I\'d start with the same guidelines for -none (about 0.02 mg per application). Tell us when you get the powder. I think 5 mg is very little powder. You may need a fine scale.

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Hey i came up with .4 mg i think in another post read the one on the 0.02 of none + y rone and x nol i expanded something that could work just some ideas for the exact science types to help us out with plus we could also suggest endorphins to be added to pheros products to make people even more sustebile.

[oscar]

Thunder,

Congratulations!
So it was just a matter of calling and ordering it, huh?
Why the hell didn\'t I think of that! [img]images/icons/crazy.gif[/img]

I\'m sure you\'ll be hearing from the serious science guys on how to get it into usable form, but while you\'re waiting for your shipment, you may want to find some Pharmco or Everclear Grain Alcohol (Ethanol 95%), and perhaps a bottle of quality distilled water.

I would put a drop of each, alcohol and water on a clean surface and drop just a couple of granules of the powder onto each drop to see which dissolves the powder more readily.

Good Luck!
Oscar [img]images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

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Hey oscar whats youre take on my new formula for phero application in the other thread about using .02 mg of none as a baseline and everything else coming along as something or anything. The formula may work but im still prepared to say that rone - stadinenone is still to be explored im sure someone with a chem set rone and the new stadienone will come up with results at some stage a future direction as well.

[oscar]

DrDuck,

I saw that recipe. I REALLY hope you left out a zero on the front end of the A-Rone quantity, if you\'re talking about a one dose formula. The kit A-Rone is seriously stinky, almost as intense as the A-None.

I\'ve got no idea about the Dienone yet.
Truth\'s idea about using Dienone and/or A-None totalling .02mg/dose sounded like a good jumping-off point to me. But then, I do lean toward the conservative side.

Using .04mg of the Dienone might be an OD, but it would be a good way to see how well it works. I\'m very anxious to hear some results.

Funny, but when I think of the difference between 1/25000th of a gram and 1/50000th of a gram, and that margin being the difference between success and failure, I envision nightmares of mirrors and razor blades! [img]images/icons/crazy.gif[/img]

At $12,000 bucks a gram, you sure as hell don\'t wanna sneeze!

Oscar [img]images/icons/wink.gif[/img]

[jvkohl]

Usually, the follow-up on purchase of androsterone from Sigma, included a call-back the day after I ordered. Then, I was \"grilled\" as to intended use, and told on one
occassion that it could not be sent unless I had either a university or research institution address.

I suspect Thunder will hear the same thing; if not, I expect that Bruce and I will need to talk about this.

BTW; I have nothing against androstadienone; I just think that it would be very difficult to come up with a good mix, since in studies only picogram amounts are used (not something measurable on anything less than research laboratory scales).

[drchaos]

picograms applied to right under the target\'s nose, usually.

It\'s easy to get picograms from milligrams.

Mix one milligram in large amount of dilutant.
Keep track of how much that is.

Take a centileter of that, and dilute it again and keep track of the presumed concentration.

are you sure it\'s really picograms and micrograms?

in any case if dienone really is \'the\' VNO activating pheromone then I\'d imagine it would be extremely potent.

I take it that your position is that human reactions to the -none and -nol are learned (though apparently learned automatically by just living and with dimorphic effects) and the stimulus is transmitted to the brain from the conventional olfactory center?

[Nutt]

I would imagine the best bet for dilution would be splitting the quantity in half with a razor blade or similar, then adding this to 100mL ( or whatever) of alchol and then diluting the dissolved mix from there, allowing you to preform molarity calculations to get the concentration.

I dont know enough about preperation of pheros to say all yo have to do is add it to the alchol though. werent people talking about \'antifreeze\' type molecules used to delay phero release, would you need something like this in the mix?

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Well, androsterone was a classified anabolic steroid until recently, but it should be OK now.

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Kohl, I did recieve a phone call the next day (today) and asked for my business name. I told her that the poeple I spoke with yesterday said it was shippable to public. The lady told me they do not ship to the public. I told her what kind of research I was doing with scents and the product and that it is not controlled. She had a discussion with the president of the company and it was agreed upon that for this particlar situation they would break procedure and set up a special account under my name instead of a business name. Looks like me and bruce should be the ones doing the talking.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Thunder, so are you doing real, publishable research on scents or the type of research that the rest of us on the forum are doing? :-).

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Well, might as well pipe in... First on the making of solutions, here are a few notes to remember. The chemistry kits have 1 mg/mL and there are crystals at the bottom of the bottle. This basically means that it is about at the saturation point. So 1 mg or less per mL will be an appropriate amount of ethanol. Other things will dissolve more per quanity of soln, (ie chlorofrom, but I guess we will avoid that one, eh?) but in general, the viscosicty of the other solvents makes it hard to apply with an atomizer, so you can avoid them. Someone said to see how much will dissolve in water, don\'t try it. These things do not like water.

Another thing to think about. If you make up a soln of 0.5 mg/mL this will be approximatly the same strength as NPA. From a practicle standpoint, there has been a lot of experimenting with that product. It is pseudo logical to start there. (Equal strength, both have quite an oder, previous results encouraging)

The last note to make. 20 drops is approximatly one mL of Water. This is the only instance that it holds up. And it is Approximate, really approximate... So, please do not try to use it in making mixtures for quantitative purposes. Go find a syringe and use that, much better to do. Get quite a few and use one per product, that would be best. Now, syringes are commonly labeled in \"Units\" (maybe it is just me, but isn\'t that a terrible unit to use for volumn?) and units are related to mL\'s by this...

100 Units = 1 mL

I could use the apropriate SI units to write that out, but it gets messy. OK, good luck Thunder, let us know what is up.

[ February 19, 2002: Message edited by: Walter Mitty ]

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Walter , you Rock....Thanks for the advice.

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Ok well parker if you manage to pull it off and do some testing with it let everyone know how it turns out if it could be organised to try this stuff and it proves to work then things could get interesting.
Has anyone considered putting endorphins into pheormone mixes or products as an extra idea (would it have any effect etc)

[**DONOTDELETE**]

So, where do you get endorphins? I don\'t know much about them. Can you point me to some info?

[jvkohl]

Thunder,

Good to hear you will get the chance to experiment. And yes, I think that if you are able to come up with anything scientifically sound, you and Bruce should talk. Another word of caution, however. Nearly all chemical products state (in some form) not for use on humans/in humans etc. If the androstadienone carries this statement, you might want to be able to support human testing by referring to published works by others, whose studies have passed ethical review (Martha McClintock, Noam Sobel, I. Savic, and others).

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Endorphins are the feel good chemicals of the body im just thinking that if one was to put them in phero products that others would have a feel good attitude and response could be useful along with the sexual responses of androgen compounds and couplins. Just some food for thought, i would be interested to hear how thunders experiments turn out to.

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Yeah endorphins are the feel good chemicals in the bod. But they are derived from a precursor protein/peptide beta-LPH, or beta-lipotrophin. If you cut that peptide at amino acid (AA) 104 you will end up with beta endorphine. If you hydrolyse off the tail at 118 or 117 you get gamma or alpha endorphin (respectivly.) The take home message is that now we are dealing with proteins, and these are much less stable than pheros. If you need a model (and something that is not too large of a protein) look at insulin. Its activity is completely lost after 5 days at room temp (ref around here somewhere) Now, not all proteins behave this way, but it is something to consider.

Oh yeah, this system would never work as a scent. Proteins are charged, and I don\'t often see aroma plasma. Now if there are steriod based endorphines (otherwise known as opiates, ie morphine or heroin. They bind to the same sites as endorphins, but at 18-30 times less the ability to cause the \"feel good\" response,) the arguement above doesn\'t apply. But if you are depending on proteins, to quote Ash, \"You ain\'t got but Jack and Shit. And Jack left town...\"

[ February 20, 2002: Message edited by: Walter Mitty ]

[oscar]

Walter,

I\'m curious.
What is 5mg going to look like? I\'m thinking that since it\'s only 1/200th of a gram, that it\'s going to be something like a \"matchhead\" or two worth of powder.
Would this be close?

Thunder,

I hadn\'t fully realized the high cost of the stuff, and the minute quantity you\'d be getting when I suggested experimenting with the distilled water. Good thing Walter\'s here.
I would suggest you take the full 5mg and throw it into 5ml of ethanol, and then dilute 1ml quantities or less if desired to .5mg/ml. I don\'t think you\'re ever going to want it any MORE concentrated than 1mg/ml, so this is a move that you\'re not likely to look back upon with regret.
And if you\'re going to mix it with cologne, this concentration (1mg/ml) will allow you to work with less alcohol being unnecessarily added to your fragrance. That is, provided the stuff doesn\'t crystallize at this concentration, in which case you\'ll need to further dilute it. Though the alcohol in a cologne would help to further dilute it also.

James,

I\'d imagine that with ALL the different pheros we\'re using we\'re probably delivering only picogram quantities to the subjects receptors, but need to \"seed\" the air with microgram quantities or greater in order to accomplish this. Wouldn\'t you think? We ARE more or less \"casting our fates to the winds\". Are we not? [img]images/icons/wink.gif[/img]

Oscar [img]images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

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W.O., it is very hard to give a reasonable answer to that, because things crystalize in all kinds of ways. The most common crystal that folks think of is table salt. Very dense, pretty much cubic, and so on. But, some things are a lot more like snowflakes, and incorperate a lot of air. The crystals at the bottom of the vials in the chem kits resemble this, and since all of these molecules are very similar, I\'d expect it to do the same. 5 mg is not much though, but I can\'t really answer what it should look like.

On that note, 5 mg is not much at all. Be very careful, if you exhale on the vial you run the risk of blowing it all over the place. I\'d have the ethanol (alcohol) ready to go, and just barely open the top of the vial to accomidate your delivery sys for the booze. Hopefully they do not send it in an ampule. Unfortunatly, this is quite common. It is a sealed glass container, yup sealed, the top is melted shut. You have to get a pair of kitchen gloves on, a paper towel, and wrap the ampule in the paper towel. The top of the ampule is distinct, and there is a part of it that curves inward. Place your thumbs behind that part and slowly but firmly press until the top snaps off. Then add alcohol. It will not have enough volume in the ampule to dissolve all of the pheros, don\'t worry. Once they are wetted by the initial quantity they won\'t move easily by something like an exhale.

OK, I have done more voodoo than help it seems, but I hope that they send the goods in a vial. In the chem world, either is common.

[ February 20, 2002: Message edited by: Walter Mitty ]

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Thanks everyone. I went to the chem store today to get all the necessary equip. Have the alcohol ready. I hope it\'s not a pop top to because those sometimes shatter.

[jvkohl]

Thunder,
Echoes of Walter Mitty: plus....
Typically, these chemicals arrive as crystals/powder in a vacuum-sealed glass vial. When you remove a tin seal, a rubber top is exposed. When you pop the rubber top, you must be very careful not to let the vacuum pressure release without most of the top still sealing the vial. That is: slowly lift one small portion of the rubber top. Otherwise, the vacuum can cause significant loss of the chemical in an aerosol. You\'ll see a very expensive puff of chemical, unless you\'re careful. And, as WM said, control your breathing when you have the vial nearby. Wonder what would happen if someone \"snorted\" a gram or two of this stuff--maybe Donald Trump or Bill Gates will give it a try--since few people could afford it.

Dr. Chaos,
Initially, the testing of androstadienone was performed using a patented device that delivered picogram amounts directly into the human VNO. I\'d need to review the more recent studies with regard to additional deliver methods, which have become somewhat less sophisticated. And yes, I do believe that it is the conditioned response to pheromones that\'s most important to behavior. That means that androsterone, for example, should be just as effective in adults, as androstadienone is, and perhaps androsterone is better--since the androstadienone response is most likely to be a part of early conditioning (before puberty for example). It also can be expected to lead to the androsterone as a pheromone-conditioned response that is manifest later in life. Tricky stuff, mostly speculation--but biologically based speculation typically is quite valid.

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JVK, good point, I didn\'t think about the vacuum part. But, since that sucker has two very oxidizable double bonds they\'ll probably do that. I suppose this is when it is actually nice to have the needle from a syringe, but not a total requirement. The point I want to make is to go REAL slow. When you get impatient, remind yourself how much it cost you, and you\'ll be able to slow down. I learned the hard way, losing most of a couple of hundred bucks worth of enzyme at work. The boss wasn\'t all that happy with me for a while

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Seems like the effect of rone levels is to indicate sex drive in males - hence the link to DHEA and the leveling off later in life but not of testorstrone. Anyone care to take up this theroy that is why rone may work so well in SOE without the aggressiveness of none based products.

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I have recieved the Androstadien. It came in a glass bottle the looked like it had about 10 grains of salt in it. Almost looked empty. Didn\'t even cover the bottom of the very small bottle. Mixed it with 95% ethanol. 14.5ml to 5mg product. Comes to Aprox. .34mg per ml. Even though it looked like nothing was there it is very strong. Has almost exact smell of Androstenone. Thinking it needs even more dilution. My whole small lab reeks of it. I just need to get a girl in there right. Walter and other chemists I need your input on testing strategies. Laboratorily and socially. I under stand the patented instrument for dilivery of picograms. Help me with the math on the proper dilution for picogram application. Email me directly if you please at rickarmstrong3@attbi.com I need to start gathering data.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Hey, so problems with opening the vial and pouring in the crystals? Are you really going to deliver picogram quantities to the nose of some female volunteers? Do you work in a laboratory?

I think most of us would be more interested in studies using micro/milli-gram quantities in the real world. Given that you\'ve confirmed that -dienone smells a lot like -none, the 0.02 mg dose might be a good place to start.