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  1. #1
    PheroWizard oscar's Avatar
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    Default VNO/Olfactory Crossover and DIHL theories.

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    LONG POST WARNING!

    Like many of you I\'ve read a good deal on Pheromones and the Vomeronasal Organ. Certainly not everything, but then I doubt anyone has. While I have no credentials that entitle me to present hypotheses, I do have this forum where I can do so nonetheless. Much of what I\'m about to present is conjecture, some is based on reading I\'ve done on theories that may have been subsequently proven or even disproven. Some is stolen direcly from you, my fellow forum members. I tender thanks and apologies where applicable.

    To begin, I offer a little story which, while NOT related directly to Pheromones, will hopefully illustrate the incredible powers of adaptivity of the human brain.

    A pregnant woman has a craving for lox. The dutiful father-to-be finds an all-night deli, and heroically returns home with the object of his wifes desires, and all is well.
    On the next routine visit to the obstetrician, insightful Ob/Gyn Doc asks mom-to-be if she\'s had any cravings. She relates the lox saga. The doctor states that he\'ll prescribe a potassium supplement, as that\'s a nutrient often depleted during pregnancy, and the craving for lox was likely the body\'s way of conveying this message. Lox is evidently loaded with potassium.

    If you try to figure out what happened here, you cannot help but come away with an incredible degree of respect for the power of the human brain.
    First, a message of need was transmitted. From where? A particular organ in the woman\'s body? An organ in the fetus? The brain of the fetus? I don\'t know.
    Next that message was received and translated into a practical solution by the brain, and a remedy was \"prescribed\".
    The pregnant woman had no clue that lox contained potassium, or that she even needed potassium, but her brain put the signal into terms that became workable. Her brain somehow knew that lox was a familiar means of acquiring the necessary nutrient, and thus created the craving.
    If she had been a primitive living in the rainforest, she might have been more likely to send her husband out for bananas, but perhaps in this case the mom\'s brain realized there were no all-night produce stands nearby.

    We see a great deal of conflicting information regarding the existence and/or functionality of the human Vomeronasal Organ. I\'m willing to believe that we all have a fully functional VNO, but I also wish to present a theory that would allow for the effectiveness of Pheromones even if our VNO\'s were non-functional.

    What if our VNO\'s HAD begun to become mere vestigial organs at some point in our evolutionary past? Wouldn\'t our brains with their incredible powers of adaptability have found some way of creating a back-up system, a redundancy to provide the ability to utilize this feature in some way should it be required at some point in the future?

    I would suggest that just the smell of Pheromones will provide the activation of the Hyperthalamus that the VNO is reputed to have an exclusive lock on. That is to say that there\'s a programmed response to Pheromones triggered by our olfactory sense and cross-wired to the hyperthalamus, by-passing the VNO altogether. The programming being NOT a conditioned response but rather an input of information from one piece of biological hardware to another by a means that is different from the original configuration.

    They have a motto at the Disney company, \"If you can dream it, you can do it.\" I\'ll propose that our brains work on a similar premise. We cannot begin to imagine the capabilities within our heads. Or maybe we CAN.

    I cannot concede that in the process of our allegedly losing the use of our VNO for the purpose for which it was intended, that our brains didn\'t create (or ALREADY have in place) a back-up system.

    This could account for the results seen in the experiments where it was supposedly found that Androstenone and Androstenol don\'t activate the VNO. They may only trigger Hyperthalmic response when received by olfactory sensors. So, I\'ll ask the question before truth can, \"So what about the positive effect of Androstadienone on the VNO?\". Maybe that\'s the only embodiement of androgens that our devolved VNO\'s CAN detect. I really don\'t know. I\'d like to, but I don\'t.

    DIHL

    We all daydream. We\'ve seen people daydreaming. It looks to the observer that the daydreamer is \"somewhere else\" mentally. Perhaps the daydreamer is in some \"place\" deep within the mind.

    The state of daydreaming and the effect we call the \"Deer in the Headlights Look\" are probably quite similar, though they likely don\'t occur in the same \"place\".

    The Hyperthalamus is a primitive part of our brains that we no longer rely upon to the extent that our early ancestors did. While we know that it still regulates body temperature and other necessary functions, it\'s rarely called upon to make a \"Fight or Flight\"* decision, and the role of Pheromone input has surely diminished over the millenia.
    But when it IS called upon, it works damn well.
    *I\'ve long wondered, if we were suddenly exposed to the scent of a Sabre-toothed Tiger while we were sleeping, if we\'d suddely bolt upright and go crashing through the nearest window to escape. (Haven\'t lost any sleep over this though.)

    When I\'ve been fortunate enough to see what I\'d refer to as a \"Textbook DIHL\", what I\'ve observed is a woman going to another place, somewhere DEEP within herself, totally negating the effect of the conscious mind.

    I would liken it to driving on a mountainous country road while listening to the radio. Suddenly, instead of Creed or Bush, you\'re listening to a Bluegrass station, and it doesn\'t go away until you\'ve crested the next hill, unless you can actively tune your own station back in.

    That\'s where females who are truly in DIHL mode are, somewhere in the deep primitive recesses of their minds, awaiting a signal to bring them back.
    Something like a transmission slipping.

    The little Hyperthalamus has taken over control of the ship, and the more developed parts of her brain need to muster their forces to put down the mutiny. How long this takes can give you an idea of how well developed those forces really are.
    Sometimes the transmission keeps slipping. [img]images/icons/crazy.gif[/img]

    Thank you to those that stayed with me through the ramblings above. I had more to present, but realized that this was already an epic. Perhaps I\'ve only restated the obvious, I don\'t know. Perhaps I\'m SO far off base that it\'s laughable. Again, I don\'t know. I only ask that if you\'d like to argue these points, that you do so in plain English. The only letters after my name are \"Jr\".

    Oscar [img]images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

  2. #2
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    Default Re: VNO/Olfactory Crossover and DIHL theories.

    Sounds like a damn good theroy to me, it was also me (its ok to take my theories further i think it was me) that suggested that their were two systems working where by one if rendered inactive would be taken over by another or on the other hand that they work together or independently its all semi science so far we still need more research but only by crossing out those things that are wrong (theroies ideas experiements etc) that we eventually get a bettter idea the whole premise of science. The DIHL is a textbook daydream of a sexually advanced prospect or just the primative part of the brain working overtime to rule out the conscious mind either way it sounds good. Apology accepted he he [img]images/icons/laugh.gif[/img] good work wilde oscar keep it coming.

  3. #3
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    Default Re: VNO/Olfactory Crossover and DIHL theories.

    Well, I think this theory (that pheromones can act through both the VNO and olfactory system) is compatible with all the current research. When they blocked the VNO in pigs, the females still mated when presented with androstenone. The question that is hard to get at is if the olfactory response is conditioned by the VNO response. Of course, the conditioned response may be so strong that most of us would not care about the answer to which came first. However, if the conditioned response is true, it may explain why -none, -nol, and -rone work better on older women, who presumably have stronger conditioned responses to them. Then it might give us a rationale to use -dienone on the younger gals. [img]images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

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    Default Re: VNO/Olfactory Crossover and DIHL theories.

    Or stadeninenone and nol on younger girls and leave the none out although on rone dont know it sort of acts like an accelerant anyway. But its coming together the conditioned response is the same with all human behaviour based on previous experience and memories attitudes etc. Also some genetic factors etc. That explains the wide ranging responses to pheromones from all ages. Although older women more often then not have more sexual experience) which means they are more likley to react (70+ even although for me its a bit [img]images/icons/mad.gif[/img] annoying but the science as per say without morals and religious input is there.)

  5. #5
    Banned User jvkohl's Avatar
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    Default Re: VNO/Olfactory Crossover and DIHL theories.

    In every interview, I am asked: \"what about the VNO?\" My answer is: pheromones alter LH levels in other people, whether or not the VNO is functional or vestigial. If functional, it probably plays a lesser role once the hormone response is conditioned to occur.

    I like Wilde Oscar\'s comments on cravings (tho its hypothalamus-not hyperthalamus). Simply put, such cravings are chemically driven, whether or not we\'re aware of what chemical is driving them. This makes the increased ovulatory sensitivity to, and specificity to musky scents more effective. It\'s as if the female brain is saying: pay attention to this scent; crave it even; do what you need to do to get close to it. When associated with a good sexual experience, this could lead to craving sex.

  6. #6
    Carpal Tunnel Whitehall's Avatar
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    Default Re: VNO/Olfactory Crossover and DIHL theories.

    There are two issues of practical interest here - state of mind during a DIHL and the nature of \"musk.\" The issue of VNO - yes or no is taxonomy and I\'ll leave it to others - it seems to have little practical use for us horndogs out in the field.

    I think that Oscar\'s comparison of DIHL to daydreaming has merit. I believe the word is \"reverie\" - what is she daydreaming about? Having sex with you, one hopes. Women probably don\'t think about sex the same way men do and they vary with age and hormonal condition (see \"The Alchemy of Love and Lust\" for a great chronology of a woman\'s sexual development.) Like our friends at \"Fast Seduction.com\" point out, one wants to create a state of mind. A DIHL would then be a sudden tidal wave of that state of mind.

    A practical question often asked is \"How do you exploit a DIHL.\" Talking plan, not experience here, as a minimum one should \"anchor\" the state to yourself so that she will associate her DIHL state with you. Speak softly and with a deep voice, locking eyes, and moving closer. If you can, deepen and lenghten the state - you don\'t want her to snap out of it, do you? Ever see the photo of Monica Lewensky and Clinton togther? Bet she did a DIHL to Bill.

    The second issue of practical interest is the nature of \"musk.\" There are many, many, synthetic \"musk\" compounds and quite a few natural sourced musks. Musk has a long reputation of evocating sexual feelings and being associated with sex and lust. Why this is remains a mystery to me. If it\'s learned, it\'s learned very early but who teaches it?

    I would posit that there are scent archetypes hardwired into the limbic system - a formal pheromone is only one example. One can think a smell is disgusting on first whiff, with no pre-conditioning. These can be near universal but might vary as MHC immune genes do.

    I\'d hold, in disagreeement with James, that there are visual and conceptual archetypes too. Certain visual stimuli are universal - show a picture of a baby seal and every women I\'ve ever meet goes \"Ohhh.\" Mathematics is the classic example of hardwiring - every human understands binary logic.

    So, who\'s scienced-out musk smells? Which ones work best? I\'m becoming more and more the fan of my mixture of Jovan Musk2 with NPA - the musk smell is always greated well by others and I enjoy smelling it on myself over the day. How do they differ between species for the natural sources and between chemical species for the synthetics? My web searches haven\'t turned up much useful as of yet and I\'d appreciate any pointers on the subject.

  7. #7
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    Default Re: VNO/Olfactory Crossover and DIHL theories.

    Whatever is in SOe and alter ego works well also attraction and andro 4.2 i can buy these two cheaper locally in australia for cheaper but the stuff from bruce is great bruce have you ever considered suppling locally here in oz to avoid all this import shit just ship it to a warehouse down here and supply it by domestic mail or you could base all of youre asian orders out of here, its easier to ship stuff out of australia into asia as we have some thing about free trade zone down here or something just an idea. The DIHL well just play withi forks it is mmm interesting.

  8. #8
    Phero Pharaoh a.k.a.'s Avatar
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    Default Re: VNO/Olfactory Crossover and DIHL theories.

    But who has actually gotten lucky with a girl that had DIHL?

    I consider myself good at reading people, but DIHL mystifies me. In pick up clubs I tend to approach girls that give the classic signal: a glance and a smile. In everyday settings, I tend to approach girls that are pretending not to notice me. (This isn’t a strategy. These are usually the women I find myself attracted to.)

    Once I OD’s with PI and noticed one girl with DIHL in a coffeeshop. Several days later, at the same coffee-shop, with amoderate dosage, I noticed the same girl giving me sideways glances. I walked up and started a conversation. She seemed real excited to talk to me and even thanked me (?) for introducing myself.
    Did my (previous) OD make a lasting impression, or was my (current) moderate dosage effective?

    Another time a girl that was bagging my groceries gave me a long DIHL. I smiled and she said, “Sorry for staring, but you look so familiar.”
    Did my pheros create some kind of association in her mind, or was that a pick-up line?

    A third time I was at the mall wearing a combo of AE + PI. This was the most intense day of hits I’ve ever had. (Haven’t experienced anything like it since.) I was getting smiles, glances and DIHL everywhere I went. I walked into a pizza place that was completely empty, ordered a slice and sat down. Within minutes every table was full of women and they were all staring at me. It was almost as if they were turning their heads with every move I made. A very beautiful woman was giving me intense DIHL as I was walking out. As I passed by her table, she smiled and said “Hi.”
    I smiled, said hi, and asked if we’d met before.
    She got instantly flustered and said a whole string of negative words all at once. (Something like, “No. Sorry. Nevermind. Excuse me.)
    Was she repulsed or was she more attracted than she could handle?

    A fourth time I was at a Targets, wearing TE, and noticed a girl from work giving me the DIHL. I walked over to say hi and she seemed to be angry with me. She asked me what I was doing there, in a gruff sort of way. When I said I was looking for socks, she showed me which aisle to go down, as if to say, “Go buy your socks and leave me alone.”

    In other words, I’ve never managed to associate DIHL with any single or particular kind of thought or feeling.

  9. #9
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    Default Re: VNO/Olfactory Crossover and DIHL theories.

    Well i dont know ive got sex information and reactions when talking to them but apart from that well its probably just the brain being brought into play the unconscious we know the effects more open i guess other factors come into play previous exposure experience. How they associate the scent with you now there is an important point NLP related to. Ive noticed its important to associate sex in some way with yourself even if its a general comment about attitudes or even religion to sex just theoriesing about different things just as long as you get the word SEX or HARD or penetrate in it can create some interest that is why verbal communication is so important folks all the way. Use the stuff to youre advantage by playing to its strengths that can be the difference between a successful user and someone who sits back says nothing and justs gets reactions. or DIHLs only.

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    Default Re: VNO/Olfactory Crossover and DIHL theories.

    Remember everyone 97% of adults will get sex before they die thats right 97 out of every 100 people will get a root before they die that is they will not be virgins when they die so take soliste in that fact. Lol but it still feels good lol

  11. #11
    Phero Pharaoh a.k.a.'s Avatar
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    Default Re: VNO/Olfactory Crossover and DIHL theories.

    Hmmm...
    But if everybody could commit to initiating just one virgin in their lifetime, we could probably bring the figure up to 100%.

    Now I’m feeling guilty because I’m getting up in years and still haven’t done my part.

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    Default Re: VNO/Olfactory Crossover and DIHL theories.

    Maybe some women need to get the same ideas into their heads because for most of us except those that are gay or root animals it means needing someone of the opposite sex. MMM but does that happen (well sex workers are the exception and if someone goes that route then they have to pay) apart from that it means using whatever means one has available (no wonder women complain about lack of sex but its thier nature to be selective so i guess they cant have it both ways but they try and get depressed in the process anyway will leave that one alone.)G
    good male logic though. lol

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    Carpal Tunnel Whitehall's Avatar
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    Default Re: VNO/Olfactory Crossover and DIHL theories.

    Women have to have stronger sexual inhibitions then men - their limited reproductive potential has to be rationed carefully - or at least more so than men.

    What part of the brain contains those inhibitory mechanisms? I\'d suggest the forebrain, where the cognative functions (\"consciousness\") originate. Sexual desire and smell are housed in lower, more primitive levels like the limbic and hypothalamus. Perhaps, a DIHL is the lower brain taking overall control for a while. Eventually, she \"snaps out of it\" and consciousness reasserts itself. Guilt in an inhibitory mechanism that can cause an \"over-reaction\"\" that would explain the negative reactions and the negative comments. Love to see a PET scan of a DIHL.

    The classic disinhibitor is ethanol (\"Rice is nice, but liquor is quicker.\") Are tipsey women more prone to DIHL? That would be my working hypothesis but most examples on the Forum seem to be with sober women - am I right in that impression?

    Still, it seems a good strategy to lock in her memory your presence when she\'s in a DIHL. At the next meeting, she might recreate the DIHL in her memory that way - that should get you off to a good start.

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    Default Re: VNO/Olfactory Crossover and DIHL theories.

    a.k.a.

    \"is that a pickup line?\"

    Are you kidding?

    That\'s as much of a pickupline as a woman ever ever gives!

    i.e. if it were a guy you could translate it as \"oh honey mama i want to make hot monkey love in my castle with your luscious melons\"

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    Default Re: VNO/Olfactory Crossover and DIHL theories.

    Dr. Chaos,

    That\'s pretty good. Mind if I use that next time I\'m on the web being rude to drunk women? [img]images/icons/tongue.gif[/img]

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