USA Elections Whole New Ballgame

[koolking1]

today so it

would be a good idea to call your CongressPerson this morning, the vote goes off at 1PM. The Senate will vote on

Wednesday.

[Bruce]

Whoa! Stock market totally tanked,

eh?

[Bruce]

Wow, check this

out
http://www.truthout.org/092908B
I didn't read the whole thing, just the point about the 612

billion.

[koolking1]

with the people making it clear that we don't wan't to bailout Wall Street bankers it will eventually make the

politicians realize that there's no alternative but to cut spending which will eventually stop the wars.

[belgareth]

with

the people making it clear that we don't wan't to bailout Wall Street bankers it will eventually make the

politicians realize that there's no alternative but to cut spending which will eventually stop the

wars.

Nice thought but I wouldn't bet on it. They are already talking about a new bailout package. Notice

though that Wall Street took a serious dive then recovered somewhat. The markets worldwide may take a pounding

without the bailout but, just like in all the other crashes, the country is still sound. There's a concept that

people seem to miss: Money does not evaporate nor does it appear out of thin air. The money is still here and it

hasn't really changed in any way other than who is holding it. There will be changes and possibly some more

failures but in the long term the national economy will recover after some changes. Bailing out the feeble or poorly

managed will not improve the quality of the businesses in the long term. Think of Darwinian selection as applied to

financial institutions.

[Bruce]

If by "money" you mean wealth, it

seems to have been increasingly falling into the hands of the few privileged. Have a look

at
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_inequality
for the basic concept. Related links show graphs

of increasing disparity in the US. Let's hope this is a correction rather than a Darwinian selection of the

shrewdest business folks

[belgareth]

Correction is a funny term and

can have a lot of meanings. Redistribution might be the actual concept involved here but I don't think that's the

solution to the problem either. To be honest, I don't know what the solution to too much money in too few hands is.

Government forced redistribution is not the answer and will only make matters far worse and hasten the eventual

collapse of our society.

Money is really no more than a concept, a tool for keeping track, like poker chips.

Same with wealth and both only have value due to a belief that they have value. Were the population to stop

believing in the wealth and start trading in clamshells it would completely crash the markets. That's why consumer

confidence reports weigh so heavily on the market. It is also what caused the stock market crashes in the past and

the great depression. It's a chain reaction. Market reports are bad scaring people who in turn stop buying things

and start hording money in their mattresses. Since people aren't buying things factory orders go down causing

layoffs which frightens more people.

That's a simplification but is more or less what really happens. The Dow

Jones Average or S&P or any others are only well known stock reports that are used to provide something for the

public to read about in the newspaper. It gives something to the people for them to believe in, no more. The fact is

that we still pump oil out of the ground and still make all sorts of products. It's just that nobody is buying

because they are afraid they won't have any more money. Since millions of people all do that at once due to what

they read and see, it becomes a self fulfilling prophesy.

That's where leadership comes in. If we had leaders

we belived in, that we really believed were working in our interests to stabilize things the people would relax a

little and buy more things. The trend would reverse. That's why the jobs program at the end of the great depression

worked. People believed. $700 billion dollars put towards creating jobs and markets would do a world of good for our

economy but not in the form of bailing out bankers who screwed up.

[Mtnjim]

That's why

the jobs program at the end of the great depression worked. People believed.

Ummm, the "jobs program"

that got us out of the dumper is called "World War II". It saved our

Bacon.

[idesign]

Agree with Jim about WWII, but I

think Bel's basic premise is correct.

I too wonder about wealth "disparity", but then think of the absolute

affluence of our society. If you think of it in goods and services there really aren't too many Americans

suffering at below standard levels.

Of course we have a habit of *wanting* more.

[koolking1]

http://www.dailypaul.com/

scroll down a bit and watch the video. "Americans prefer freedom over

bread"

[belgareth]

Ummm, the

"jobs program" that got us out of the dumper is called "World War II". It saved our

Bacon.

Ummm... Not really but it did help. The

nation was already recovering and in large part that was due to the mental state of the citizens. They had hope and

the jobs created by world war II only made things better, possibly too fast. You can argue that without the war the

economy would have continued to stagnate but I believe the war only brought about a faster recovery that later led

to additional problems after the war. I think the economy would have taken longer to recover but would have been

stronger for it. It was the psycological condition that improved the economy, not the war. What would have happened

had we not lost so many people in the war, if they had come back looking for work with all the industries still on a

wartime

footing?
http://www.todaysteacher.com/TheGrea...efOverview.htm

Roosevelt's program was called the "New Deal." The words "New Deal" signified a new relationship between

the American people and their government. This new relationship included the creation of several new federal

agencies, called "alphabet agencies" because of their use of acronyms. A few of the more significant of these New

Deal programs was the CCC (Civilian Conservation Corps) which gave jobs to unemployed youths and to improve the

environment, the WPA (Works Progress Administration) gave jobs to thousands of unemployed in everything from

construction to the arts, and the NRA (National Recovery Administration) drew up regulations and codes to help

revitalize industry. Later on came the creation of the Social Security System, unemployment insurance and more

agencies and programs designed to help Americans during times of economic hardship. Under President Roosevelt the

federal government took on many new responsibilities for the welfare of the people. The new relationship forged in

the New Deal was one of closeness between the government and the people: a closeness which had never existed to such

a degree before.

[belgareth]

http://www.dailypaul.com/

scroll down a bit and watch the video. "Americans

prefer freedom over bread"

He makes a lot of sense.

[Bruce]

Yeah, smart guy. I watched his

"take on the bailout vote". Every day I realize how little I know about the way the government is run and the

meaning of these recent events

[belgareth]

I see that after the huge wall

street sell off yesterday there has been a huge buy back today. It will probably fluctuate for a week or so, maybe

longer depending on the government's antics, then settle down but a couple hundred points lower. Analysts have been

predicting a downward correction anyway.

[idesign]

Every day I

realize how little I know about the way the government is run and the meaning of these recent events

Amen

Bro, and I wonder how many of our elected "leaders" have a even a clue about the full dynamics of this. My guess is

very few if any.

Once you think you have a handle on some part of this thing, you read something else and have to

re-think it all over again.

As an adjunct thought, we here in this discussion have a big problem with the

political philosophy behind a gov't bailout. I wonder how many of the "American People" understand this, or are

just knee-jerking against "rich people". Or both.

[idesign]

http://www.dailypaul.com/

scroll down a bit and watch the video. "Americans

prefer freedom over bread"

I've never heard of this guy! (McCotter)

He's worth watching. Then

again, he comes across as smart and direct, bad news for a "leader".

[belgareth]

There are a lot of jerks with

knees here but an awful lot of them are jerking in the wrong direction or just don't understand, IMO

[belgareth]

If you

think of it in goods and services there really aren't too many Americans suffering at below standard levels.



Of course we have a habit of *wanting* more.

Isn't wanting more the major force in progress?

[belgareth]

At the time of this writing,

the U.S. House and Senate are poised to
pass a $700 billion bailout to Wall Street. At the behest of

President
George W. Bush, the U.S. taxpayers are going to be on the hook for what
can only be referred to as the

biggest fraud in U.S. history.
Virtually our entire financial system is based on an illusion. We spend
more than

we earn, we consume more than we produce, we borrow more than
we save, and we cling to the fantasy that this can go

on forever. The
glue that holds this crumbling scheme together is a fiat currency known
as the Federal Reserve

Note, which was created out of thin air by an
international banking cartel called the Federal Reserve.
According

to Congressman Ron Paul, in the last three years, the Federal
Reserve has created over $4 trillion in new money.

The result of all
this "money-out-of-thin-air" fraud is never-ending inflation. And the
more prices rise, the more

the dollar collapses. Folks, this is not
sustainable.
Already, Bear Stearns was awarded a $29 billion bailout,

followed
quickly by the bailout of Freddie and Fannie that will cost the
taxpayers up to $200 billion. Then the

Fed announced the bailout of AIG
to the tune of $85 billion. Mind you, AIG is an enormous global entity
with

assets totaling more than $1.1 trillion. Moreover, the Feds agreed
to pump $180 billion into global money markets.

And the Treasury
Department promised $50 billion to insure the holdings of money market
mutual funds for a year.

Now, taxpayers are being asked to provide $700
billion to Wall Street. (I hope readers are aware that, not only

will
American banks be bailed out, but foreign banks will also be bailed out.
Then again, at least half of the

Federal Reserve is comprised of foreign
banks, anyway.) In other words, the Federal Reserve is preparing to
spend

upwards of $1 trillion or more. Remember again, this is fiat
money, meaning it is money printed out of thin

air.
All of this began when the U.S. Congress abrogated its responsibility to
maintain sound money principles on

behalf of the American people (as
required by the Constitution) and created the Federal Reserve. This took
place

in 1913. The President was Woodrow Wilson. (I strongly encourage
readers to buy G. Edward Griffin's book, The

Creature from Jekyll
Island.) Since then, the U.S. economy has suffered through one Great
Depression and several

recessions--all of which have been orchestrated
by this international banking cartel. Now, we are facing total

economic
collapse.
But don't worry: the international bankers will lose nothing--not even
their bonuses. They

will maintain their mansions, yachts, private jets,
and Swiss bank accounts. No matter how bad it gets on Main

Street, the
banksters on Wall Street will still have the best of it--President Bush
and the Congress will make

sure of that. This is one thing Republicans
and Democrats can agree on.
America's founders were rightfully

skeptical of granting too much power
to bankers. Thomas Jefferson said, "If the American people ever allow
private

banks to control the issuance of their currency, first by
inflation and then by deflation, the banks and

corporations that will
grow up around them will deprive the people of all their property until
their children will

wake up homeless on the continent their fathers
conquered."
Jefferson also believed that "banking establishments

are more dangerous
than standing armies; and that the principle of spending money to be
paid by posterity, under

the name of funding, is but swindling futurity
on a large scale."
Daniel Webster warned, "Of all the contrivances

for cheating the
laboring classes of mankind, none has been more effectual than that
which deludes them with paper

money."
Webster also said, "We are in danger of being overwhelmed with
irredeemable paper, mere paper,

representing not gold nor silver; no,
Sir, representing nothing but broken promises, bad faith,

bankrupt
corporations, cheated creditors, and a ruined people."
Our first and greatest President George Washington

said, "Paper money
has had the effect in your State [Rhode Island] that it ever will have,
to ruin

commerce--oppress the honest, and open the door to every species
of fraud and injustice."
If George W. Bush, John

McCain, or Barack Obama had any honesty and
integrity, they would approach the current banking malady in much

the
same way that President Andrew Jackson did. In discussing the Bank
Renewal bill with a delegation of bankers

in 1832, Jackson said,
"Gentlemen, I have had men watching you for a long time, and I am
convinced that you have

used the funds of the bank to speculate in the
breadstuffs of the country. When you won, you divided the

profits
amongst you, and when you lost, you charged it to the bank. You tell me
that if I take the deposits from

the bank and annul its charter, I shall
ruin ten thousand families. That may be true, gentlemen, but that is
your

sin! Should I let you go on, you will ruin fifty thousand families,
and that would be my sin! You are a den of

vipers and thieves. I intend
to rout you out, and by the eternal God, I will rout you out."
What President Andrew

Jackson said to the bankers in 1832 is exactly
what an American President should say to these criminal

international
bankers today. But what George Bush, John McCain, and Barack Obama want
to do is provide amnesty for

the international bankers, just as they
want to provide amnesty for illegal aliens. I say, No amnesty for

Wall
Street, and no amnesty for illegal aliens, either. Instead of sending
these banksters on extended vacations

to the Bahamas with millions of
taxpayer dollars in their pockets, we should be sending them straight

to
jail!
The only way to fix this economic mess that the international bankers
have created is to return America

to sound money principles, as
prescribed in the U.S. Constitution. This means dismantling the Federal
Reserve and

the Internal Revenue Service, overturning the 16th Amendment
and the personal income tax, and returning the

American monetary system
to hard assets: gold and silver. Anything short of this will only delay
and worsen the

inevitable collapse that has already begun.
*If you appreciate this column and want to help me distribute

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editorial opinions to an ever-growing audience, donations may now be
made by credit card, check, or Money

Order. Use this

link:
http://www

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*Disclaimer: I am currently a

candidate for President of the United
States on the Constitution Party ticket. My official campaign web site
is

located

at:
http://www.baldwin08.c

om/
© Chuck Baldwin
This column is archived

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[belgareth]

Subject: Fannie Mae

Executives---With Link To Snopes


3Men Who Brought Down Wall Street Be sure to read the 'where they
arenow'!!


Hereis a quick look into 3 former Fannie Mae executives who have brought
down WallStreet.
FranklinRaines was a

Chairman and Chief Executive Officer at Fannie Mae.
Raineswas forced to retire from his position with Fannie Mae

when
auditingdiscovered severe irregulaties in Fannie Mae's accounting
activities. At thetime of his departure

The Wall Street Journal noted, '
Raines, who longdefended the company's accounting despite mounting
evidence

that it wasn'tproper, issued a statement late Tuesday
conceding that 'mistakeswere made' and saying he would

assume
responsibility as he had earlierpromised. News reports indicate the
company was under growing pressure

fromregulators to shake up its
management in the wake of findings that the company'sbooks ran afoul of
generally

accepted accounting principles for fouryears.' Fannie Mae had
to reduce its surplus by $9 billion.
Rainesleft

with a 'golden parachute valued at $240 Million in benefits.
TheGovernment filed suit against Raines when the

depth of the accounting
scandalbecame clear.

http://hou

singdoom.com/2006/12/18/fannie-charges/
<http://housingdoom.com/2006/1

2/18/fannie-charges/> . The
Governmentnoted, 'The 101 charges

reveal how the individuals improperly
manipulatedearnings to maximize their bonuses, while knowingly
neglecting

accountingsystems and internal controls, misapplying over
twenty accounting principlesand misleading the regulator

and the public.
The Notice explains how theysubmitted six years of misleading and
inaccurate accounting statements

andinaccurate capital reports that
enabled them to grow Fannie Mae in an unsafeand unsound manner.' These
charges

were made in 2006. TheCourt ordered Raines to return $50
Million Dollars he received in bonuses basedon the

miss-stated Fannie
Mae profits.
TimHoward - Was the Chief Financial Officer of Fannie Mae. Howard 'wasa
strong

internal proponent of using accounting strategies that would
ensure a'stable pattern of earnings' at Fannie. In

everyday English - he
wascooking the books . The Government Investigation determined
that,'Chief Financial

Officer, Tim Howard, failed to provide adequate
oversightto key control and reporting functions within Fannie

Mae,'
OnJune 16, 2006, Rep. Richard Baker, R-La., asked the Justice Department
toinvestigate his allegations

that two former Fannie Mae executives lied
toCongress in October 2004 when they denied manipulating

the
mortgage-financegiant's income statement to achieve management pay
bonuses. Investigations byfederal

regulators and the company's board of
directors since concluded thatmanagement did manipulate 1998 earnings

to
trigger bonuses. Raines and Howardresigned under pressure in late 2004.
Howard'sGolden Parachute was

estimated at $20 Million!
JimJohnson - A former executive at Lehman Brothers and who was
laterforced from his

position as Fannie Mae CEO. A look at the Office
ofFederal Housing Enterprise Oversight's May 2006 report

on
mismanagement andcorruption inside Fannie Mae, and you'll see some
interesting things aboutJohnson.

Investigators found that Fannie Mae had
hidden a substantial amount ofJohnson's 1998 compensation from

the
public, reporting that it was between $6million and $7 million when it
fact it was $21 million.' Johnson is

currently under investigation for
taking illegal loans fromCountrywide while serving as CEO of Fannie

Mae.
Johnson'sGolden Parachute was estimated at $28 Million.

WHERE ARE THEY NOW?
FRANKLIN RAINES? Raines

works for the Obama Campaign as ChiefEconomic
Advisor
TIM HOWARD? Howard is also a Chief Economic Advisor to

Obama
JIM JOHNSON? Johnson hired as a Senior Obama Finance Advisorand was
selected to run Obama's Vice

Presidential Search Committee

IF OBAMA PLANS ON CLEANING UP THE MESS - HIS ADVISORS HAVE THEEXPERTISE
- THEY

MADE THE MESS IN THE FIRST PLACE. Would you trustthe men who
tore Wall Street down to build the New Wall Street ?



Snopes says that this info linking Obama is not entirely true butit
still stinks.
bf

snopes.com: Obama's

Fannie MaeEconomic

Advisors
<[COLOR

=#0000ff]http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/fanniemae.asp[/COLOR]>

[idesign]

Good posts Bel, and they only

scratch the surface.

Its a damnable shame on the MSM that real investigative reporting is so skewed now that

the public is ill-served pretty much to the point of propaganda. Anyone, give me evidence to the contrary and I'll

listen.

Its a secret hidden only from the public that Freddie and Fannie have been in bed with the Dems for

years, going back to the Clinton admin. Gov't policies to push lenders to underwrite high-risk mortgages - with

loads of mismanaged cash guarantees from Fred and Fannie - have been popular in Congress since Christ anointed Dan

Rather but, unfortunately, didn't fall with his eventual demise.

Couple gov't produced artificial markets with

natural greed and you get a crisis. Congress pressured the market with policy, Investment Bankers sucked the tit,

and you and I get sour milk. Throw in the Fed Reserve Bank driving rates down and you get more artificial money

incentivising bad debt.

There are many more factors at play here of course. But I think one has to look

broadly at what fundamentally informs our positions. The debate in front of us should be more philosophically

driven, and not based on "fixes".

I'm only mildly amazed that a bailout bill was voted down due to popular

opposition, and then gets passed after loading it up with a bunch of trash. I simply want to tear out my few

remaining hairs. Good thing I've learned to properly place my emotional priorities.

[belgareth]

They basically support what I

have been saying for some time now. The current way of doing business is not sustainable and is leading to a point

of collapse. Better the collapse now than later because the longer we wait the worse the impact is going to be.

[Bruce]

I would love to see this guy at the

helm
http://de.youtube.com/watch?v=WRUo0ycRWic&feature=dir

[koolking1]

I'm not bothering myself

over this election anymore. I'll write-in Ron Paul for President, vote for my Congresswoman Carol Shea-Porter,

Dem, who stood her ground and voted twice not to support the bailout, and then write in either Beavis or Butthead

for the rest of slate.

[stuttgart-man]

have found an interesting

site about US election:
http://www.electoral-vote.com/icon.html

[belgareth]

I'm

not bothering myself over this election anymore. I'll write-in Ron Paul for President, vote for my Congresswoman

Carol Shea-Porter, Dem, who stood her ground and voted twice not to support the bailout, and then write in either

Beavis or Butthead for the rest of slate.

Yeah, I pretty much feel the same way. More likely to vote for a

Disney or Warner Brothers character than anybody whom the media have decided can run for president.

[Holmes]

I'm not

bothering myself over this election anymore. I'll write-in Ron Paul for President, vote for my Congresswoman Carol

Shea-Porter, Dem, who stood her ground and voted twice not to support the bailout, and then write in either Beavis

or Butthead for the rest of slate.

Hahaha... sounds like a plan.

+1

[idesign]

Where's Pat Paulson when you

need him? Anyone remember him and care to admit it?

[koolking1]

I was but a mere

child, that's all I'll admit to.

Beavis and Butthead '08

[koolking1]

geez, seems like

it's been going on forever. I don't expect things to get better no matter who wins.