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  1. #361
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    Default The House votes

    visit-red-300x50PNG
    today so it

    would be a good idea to call your CongressPerson this morning, the vote goes off at 1PM. The Senate will vote on

    Wednesday.
    There is a cure for electile dysfuntion!!!!

  2. #362
    Administrator Bruce's Avatar
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    Whoa! Stock market totally tanked,

    eh?
    To enjoy good health, to bring true happiness to one's family, to bring peace to all, one must first discipline and control one's own mind. If a man can control his mind he can find the way to Enlightenment, and all wisdom and virtue will naturally come to him.

    - Buddha


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  3. #363
    Administrator Bruce's Avatar
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    Wow, check this

    out
    http://www.truthout.org/092908B
    I didn't read the whole thing, just the point about the 612

    billion.
    To enjoy good health, to bring true happiness to one's family, to bring peace to all, one must first discipline and control one's own mind. If a man can control his mind he can find the way to Enlightenment, and all wisdom and virtue will naturally come to him.

    - Buddha


    Yoga in Eugene
    Fair Trade crafts from Peru

  4. #364
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    Default just the first baby steps....

    with the people making it clear that we don't wan't to bailout Wall Street bankers it will eventually make the

    politicians realize that there's no alternative but to cut spending which will eventually stop the wars.
    There is a cure for electile dysfuntion!!!!

  5. #365
    Moderator belgareth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by koolking1 View Post
    with

    the people making it clear that we don't wan't to bailout Wall Street bankers it will eventually make the

    politicians realize that there's no alternative but to cut spending which will eventually stop the

    wars.
    Nice thought but I wouldn't bet on it. They are already talking about a new bailout package. Notice

    though that Wall Street took a serious dive then recovered somewhat. The markets worldwide may take a pounding

    without the bailout but, just like in all the other crashes, the country is still sound. There's a concept that

    people seem to miss: Money does not evaporate nor does it appear out of thin air. The money is still here and it

    hasn't really changed in any way other than who is holding it. There will be changes and possibly some more

    failures but in the long term the national economy will recover after some changes. Bailing out the feeble or poorly

    managed will not improve the quality of the businesses in the long term. Think of Darwinian selection as applied to

    financial institutions.
    Last edited by belgareth; 09-30-2008 at 06:31 AM.
    To compel a man to subsidize with his taxes the propagation of ideas which he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical.

    Thomas Jefferson

  6. #366
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    If by "money" you mean wealth, it

    seems to have been increasingly falling into the hands of the few privileged. Have a look

    at
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_inequality
    for the basic concept. Related links show graphs

    of increasing disparity in the US. Let's hope this is a correction rather than a Darwinian selection of the

    shrewdest business folks
    To enjoy good health, to bring true happiness to one's family, to bring peace to all, one must first discipline and control one's own mind. If a man can control his mind he can find the way to Enlightenment, and all wisdom and virtue will naturally come to him.

    - Buddha


    Yoga in Eugene
    Fair Trade crafts from Peru

  7. #367
    Moderator belgareth's Avatar
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    Correction is a funny term and

    can have a lot of meanings. Redistribution might be the actual concept involved here but I don't think that's the

    solution to the problem either. To be honest, I don't know what the solution to too much money in too few hands is.

    Government forced redistribution is not the answer and will only make matters far worse and hasten the eventual

    collapse of our society.

    Money is really no more than a concept, a tool for keeping track, like poker chips.

    Same with wealth and both only have value due to a belief that they have value. Were the population to stop

    believing in the wealth and start trading in clamshells it would completely crash the markets. That's why consumer

    confidence reports weigh so heavily on the market. It is also what caused the stock market crashes in the past and

    the great depression. It's a chain reaction. Market reports are bad scaring people who in turn stop buying things

    and start hording money in their mattresses. Since people aren't buying things factory orders go down causing

    layoffs which frightens more people.

    That's a simplification but is more or less what really happens. The Dow

    Jones Average or S&P or any others are only well known stock reports that are used to provide something for the

    public to read about in the newspaper. It gives something to the people for them to believe in, no more. The fact is

    that we still pump oil out of the ground and still make all sorts of products. It's just that nobody is buying

    because they are afraid they won't have any more money. Since millions of people all do that at once due to what

    they read and see, it becomes a self fulfilling prophesy.

    That's where leadership comes in. If we had leaders

    we belived in, that we really believed were working in our interests to stabilize things the people would relax a

    little and buy more things. The trend would reverse. That's why the jobs program at the end of the great depression

    worked. People believed. $700 billion dollars put towards creating jobs and markets would do a world of good for our

    economy but not in the form of bailing out bankers who screwed up.
    To compel a man to subsidize with his taxes the propagation of ideas which he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical.

    Thomas Jefferson

  8. #368
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    Quote Originally Posted by belgareth View Post
    That's why

    the jobs program at the end of the great depression worked. People believed.
    Ummm, the "jobs program"

    that got us out of the dumper is called "World War II". It saved our

    Bacon.
    Freedom begins when you tell Mrs. Grundy to go fly a kite.
    --Lazarus Long

  9. #369
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    Agree with Jim about WWII, but I

    think Bel's basic premise is correct.

    I too wonder about wealth "disparity", but then think of the absolute

    affluence of our society. If you think of it in goods and services there really aren't too many Americans

    suffering at below standard levels.

    Of course we have a habit of *wanting* more.


  10. #370
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    Default I like this guy!

    http://www.dailypaul.com/

    scroll down a bit and watch the video. "Americans prefer freedom over

    bread"
    There is a cure for electile dysfuntion!!!!

  11. #371
    Moderator belgareth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mtnjim View Post
    Ummm, the

    "jobs program" that got us out of the dumper is called "World War II". It saved our

    Bacon.
    Ummm... Not really but it did help. The

    nation was already recovering and in large part that was due to the mental state of the citizens. They had hope and

    the jobs created by world war II only made things better, possibly too fast. You can argue that without the war the

    economy would have continued to stagnate but I believe the war only brought about a faster recovery that later led

    to additional problems after the war. I think the economy would have taken longer to recover but would have been

    stronger for it. It was the psycological condition that improved the economy, not the war. What would have happened

    had we not lost so many people in the war, if they had come back looking for work with all the industries still on a

    wartime

    footing?
    http://www.todaysteacher.com/TheGrea...efOverview.htm
    Roosevelt's program was called the "New Deal." The words "New Deal" signified a new relationship between

    the American people and their government. This new relationship included the creation of several new federal

    agencies, called "alphabet agencies" because of their use of acronyms. A few of the more significant of these New

    Deal programs was the CCC (Civilian Conservation Corps) which gave jobs to unemployed youths and to improve the

    environment, the WPA (Works Progress Administration) gave jobs to thousands of unemployed in everything from

    construction to the arts, and the NRA (National Recovery Administration) drew up regulations and codes to help

    revitalize industry. Later on came the creation of the Social Security System, unemployment insurance and more

    agencies and programs designed to help Americans during times of economic hardship. Under President Roosevelt the

    federal government took on many new responsibilities for the welfare of the people. The new relationship forged in

    the New Deal was one of closeness between the government and the people: a closeness which had never existed to such

    a degree before.
    Last edited by belgareth; 09-30-2008 at 12:27 PM.
    To compel a man to subsidize with his taxes the propagation of ideas which he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical.

    Thomas Jefferson

  12. #372
    Moderator belgareth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by koolking1 View Post
    http://www.dailypaul.com/

    scroll down a bit and watch the video. "Americans

    prefer freedom over bread"
    He makes a lot of sense.
    To compel a man to subsidize with his taxes the propagation of ideas which he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical.

    Thomas Jefferson

  13. #373
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    Yeah, smart guy. I watched his

    "take on the bailout vote". Every day I realize how little I know about the way the government is run and the

    meaning of these recent events
    To enjoy good health, to bring true happiness to one's family, to bring peace to all, one must first discipline and control one's own mind. If a man can control his mind he can find the way to Enlightenment, and all wisdom and virtue will naturally come to him.

    - Buddha


    Yoga in Eugene
    Fair Trade crafts from Peru

  14. #374
    Moderator belgareth's Avatar
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    I see that after the huge wall

    street sell off yesterday there has been a huge buy back today. It will probably fluctuate for a week or so, maybe

    longer depending on the government's antics, then settle down but a couple hundred points lower. Analysts have been

    predicting a downward correction anyway.
    To compel a man to subsidize with his taxes the propagation of ideas which he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical.

    Thomas Jefferson

  15. #375
    Moderator idesign's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce View Post
    Every day I

    realize how little I know about the way the government is run and the meaning of these recent events
    Amen

    Bro, and I wonder how many of our elected "leaders" have a even a clue about the full dynamics of this. My guess is

    very few if any.

    Once you think you have a handle on some part of this thing, you read something else and have to

    re-think it all over again.

    As an adjunct thought, we here in this discussion have a big problem with the

    political philosophy behind a gov't bailout. I wonder how many of the "American People" understand this, or are

    just knee-jerking against "rich people". Or both.


  16. #376
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    Quote Originally Posted by koolking1 View Post
    http://www.dailypaul.com/

    scroll down a bit and watch the video. "Americans

    prefer freedom over bread"
    I've never heard of this guy! (McCotter)

    He's worth watching. Then

    again, he comes across as smart and direct, bad news for a "leader".


  17. #377
    Moderator belgareth's Avatar
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    There are a lot of jerks with

    knees here but an awful lot of them are jerking in the wrong direction or just don't understand, IMO
    To compel a man to subsidize with his taxes the propagation of ideas which he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical.

    Thomas Jefferson

  18. #378
    Moderator belgareth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by idesign View Post
    If you

    think of it in goods and services there really aren't too many Americans suffering at below standard levels.



    Of course we have a habit of *wanting* more.
    Isn't wanting more the major force in progress?
    To compel a man to subsidize with his taxes the propagation of ideas which he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical.

    Thomas Jefferson

  19. #379
    Moderator belgareth's Avatar
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    At the time of this writing,

    the U.S. House and Senate are poised to
    pass a $700 billion bailout to Wall Street. At the behest of

    President
    George W. Bush, the U.S. taxpayers are going to be on the hook for what
    can only be referred to as the

    biggest fraud in U.S. history.
    Virtually our entire financial system is based on an illusion. We spend
    more than

    we earn, we consume more than we produce, we borrow more than
    we save, and we cling to the fantasy that this can go

    on forever. The
    glue that holds this crumbling scheme together is a fiat currency known
    as the Federal Reserve

    Note, which was created out of thin air by an
    international banking cartel called the Federal Reserve.
    According

    to Congressman Ron Paul, in the last three years, the Federal
    Reserve has created over $4 trillion in new money.

    The result of all
    this "money-out-of-thin-air" fraud is never-ending inflation. And the
    more prices rise, the more

    the dollar collapses. Folks, this is not
    sustainable.
    Already, Bear Stearns was awarded a $29 billion bailout,

    followed
    quickly by the bailout of Freddie and Fannie that will cost the
    taxpayers up to $200 billion. Then the

    Fed announced the bailout of AIG
    to the tune of $85 billion. Mind you, AIG is an enormous global entity
    with

    assets totaling more than $1.1 trillion. Moreover, the Feds agreed
    to pump $180 billion into global money markets.

    And the Treasury
    Department promised $50 billion to insure the holdings of money market
    mutual funds for a year.

    Now, taxpayers are being asked to provide $700
    billion to Wall Street. (I hope readers are aware that, not only

    will
    American banks be bailed out, but foreign banks will also be bailed out.
    Then again, at least half of the

    Federal Reserve is comprised of foreign
    banks, anyway.) In other words, the Federal Reserve is preparing to
    spend

    upwards of $1 trillion or more. Remember again, this is fiat
    money, meaning it is money printed out of thin

    air.
    All of this began when the U.S. Congress abrogated its responsibility to
    maintain sound money principles on

    behalf of the American people (as
    required by the Constitution) and created the Federal Reserve. This took
    place

    in 1913. The President was Woodrow Wilson. (I strongly encourage
    readers to buy G. Edward Griffin's book, The

    Creature from Jekyll
    Island.) Since then, the U.S. economy has suffered through one Great
    Depression and several

    recessions--all of which have been orchestrated
    by this international banking cartel. Now, we are facing total

    economic
    collapse.
    But don't worry: the international bankers will lose nothing--not even
    their bonuses. They

    will maintain their mansions, yachts, private jets,
    and Swiss bank accounts. No matter how bad it gets on Main

    Street, the
    banksters on Wall Street will still have the best of it--President Bush
    and the Congress will make

    sure of that. This is one thing Republicans
    and Democrats can agree on.
    America's founders were rightfully

    skeptical of granting too much power
    to bankers. Thomas Jefferson said, "If the American people ever allow
    private

    banks to control the issuance of their currency, first by
    inflation and then by deflation, the banks and

    corporations that will
    grow up around them will deprive the people of all their property until
    their children will

    wake up homeless on the continent their fathers
    conquered."
    Jefferson also believed that "banking establishments

    are more dangerous
    than standing armies; and that the principle of spending money to be
    paid by posterity, under

    the name of funding, is but swindling futurity
    on a large scale."
    Daniel Webster warned, "Of all the contrivances

    for cheating the
    laboring classes of mankind, none has been more effectual than that
    which deludes them with paper

    money."
    Webster also said, "We are in danger of being overwhelmed with
    irredeemable paper, mere paper,

    representing not gold nor silver; no,
    Sir, representing nothing but broken promises, bad faith,

    bankrupt
    corporations, cheated creditors, and a ruined people."
    Our first and greatest President George Washington

    said, "Paper money
    has had the effect in your State [Rhode Island] that it ever will have,
    to ruin

    commerce--oppress the honest, and open the door to every species
    of fraud and injustice."
    If George W. Bush, John

    McCain, or Barack Obama had any honesty and
    integrity, they would approach the current banking malady in much

    the
    same way that President Andrew Jackson did. In discussing the Bank
    Renewal bill with a delegation of bankers

    in 1832, Jackson said,
    "Gentlemen, I have had men watching you for a long time, and I am
    convinced that you have

    used the funds of the bank to speculate in the
    breadstuffs of the country. When you won, you divided the

    profits
    amongst you, and when you lost, you charged it to the bank. You tell me
    that if I take the deposits from

    the bank and annul its charter, I shall
    ruin ten thousand families. That may be true, gentlemen, but that is
    your

    sin! Should I let you go on, you will ruin fifty thousand families,
    and that would be my sin! You are a den of

    vipers and thieves. I intend
    to rout you out, and by the eternal God, I will rout you out."
    What President Andrew

    Jackson said to the bankers in 1832 is exactly
    what an American President should say to these criminal

    international
    bankers today. But what George Bush, John McCain, and Barack Obama want
    to do is provide amnesty for

    the international bankers, just as they
    want to provide amnesty for illegal aliens. I say, No amnesty for

    Wall
    Street, and no amnesty for illegal aliens, either. Instead of sending
    these banksters on extended vacations

    to the Bahamas with millions of
    taxpayer dollars in their pockets, we should be sending them straight

    to
    jail!
    The only way to fix this economic mess that the international bankers
    have created is to return America

    to sound money principles, as
    prescribed in the U.S. Constitution. This means dismantling the Federal
    Reserve and

    the Internal Revenue Service, overturning the 16th Amendment
    and the personal income tax, and returning the

    American monetary system
    to hard assets: gold and silver. Anything short of this will only delay
    and worsen the

    inevitable collapse that has already begun.
    *If you appreciate this column and want to help me distribute

    these
    editorial opinions to an ever-growing audience, donations may now be
    made by credit card, check, or Money

    Order. Use this

    link:
    http://www

    .chuckbaldwinlive.com/donate.php

    *Disclaimer: I am currently a

    candidate for President of the United
    States on the Constitution Party ticket. My official campaign web site
    is

    located

    at:
    http://www.baldwin08.c

    om/

    © Chuck Baldwin
    This column is archived

    as
    [C

    OLOR=#0000ff]http://www.chuckbaldwinlive.com/c2008/cbarchive_20080926.html
    [/COLOR]
    [S

    IZE=2] [/SIZE]

    To compel a man to subsidize with his taxes the propagation of ideas which he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical.

    Thomas Jefferson

  20. #380
    Moderator belgareth's Avatar
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    Subject: Fannie Mae

    Executives---With Link To Snopes


    3Men Who Brought Down Wall Street Be sure to read the 'where they
    arenow'!!


    Hereis a quick look into 3 former Fannie Mae executives who have brought
    down WallStreet.
    FranklinRaines was a

    Chairman and Chief Executive Officer at Fannie Mae.
    Raineswas forced to retire from his position with Fannie Mae

    when
    auditingdiscovered severe irregulaties in Fannie Mae's accounting
    activities. At thetime of his departure

    The Wall Street Journal noted, '
    Raines, who longdefended the company's accounting despite mounting
    evidence

    that it wasn'tproper, issued a statement late Tuesday
    conceding that 'mistakeswere made' and saying he would

    assume
    responsibility as he had earlierpromised. News reports indicate the
    company was under growing pressure

    fromregulators to shake up its
    management in the wake of findings that the company'sbooks ran afoul of
    generally

    accepted accounting principles for fouryears.' Fannie Mae had
    to reduce its surplus by $9 billion.
    Rainesleft

    with a 'golden parachute valued at $240 Million in benefits.
    TheGovernment filed suit against Raines when the

    depth of the accounting
    scandalbecame clear.

    http://hou

    singdoom.com/2006/12/18/fannie-charges/

    <http://housingdoom.com/2006/1

    2/18/fannie-charges/
    > . The
    Governmentnoted, 'The 101 charges

    reveal how the individuals improperly
    manipulatedearnings to maximize their bonuses, while knowingly
    neglecting

    accountingsystems and internal controls, misapplying over
    twenty accounting principlesand misleading the regulator

    and the public.
    The Notice explains how theysubmitted six years of misleading and
    inaccurate accounting statements

    andinaccurate capital reports that
    enabled them to grow Fannie Mae in an unsafeand unsound manner.' These
    charges

    were made in 2006. TheCourt ordered Raines to return $50
    Million Dollars he received in bonuses basedon the

    miss-stated Fannie
    Mae profits.
    TimHoward - Was the Chief Financial Officer of Fannie Mae. Howard 'wasa
    strong

    internal proponent of using accounting strategies that would
    ensure a'stable pattern of earnings' at Fannie. In

    everyday English - he
    wascooking the books . The Government Investigation determined
    that,'Chief Financial

    Officer, Tim Howard, failed to provide adequate
    oversightto key control and reporting functions within Fannie

    Mae,'
    OnJune 16, 2006, Rep. Richard Baker, R-La., asked the Justice Department
    toinvestigate his allegations

    that two former Fannie Mae executives lied
    toCongress in October 2004 when they denied manipulating

    the
    mortgage-financegiant's income statement to achieve management pay
    bonuses. Investigations byfederal

    regulators and the company's board of
    directors since concluded thatmanagement did manipulate 1998 earnings

    to
    trigger bonuses. Raines and Howardresigned under pressure in late 2004.
    Howard'sGolden Parachute was

    estimated at $20 Million!
    JimJohnson - A former executive at Lehman Brothers and who was
    laterforced from his

    position as Fannie Mae CEO. A look at the Office
    ofFederal Housing Enterprise Oversight's May 2006 report

    on
    mismanagement andcorruption inside Fannie Mae, and you'll see some
    interesting things aboutJohnson.

    Investigators found that Fannie Mae had
    hidden a substantial amount ofJohnson's 1998 compensation from

    the
    public, reporting that it was between $6million and $7 million when it
    fact it was $21 million.' Johnson is

    currently under investigation for
    taking illegal loans fromCountrywide while serving as CEO of Fannie

    Mae.
    Johnson'sGolden Parachute was estimated at $28 Million.

    WHERE ARE THEY NOW?
    FRANKLIN RAINES? Raines

    works for the Obama Campaign as ChiefEconomic
    Advisor
    TIM HOWARD? Howard is also a Chief Economic Advisor to

    Obama
    JIM JOHNSON? Johnson hired as a Senior Obama Finance Advisorand was
    selected to run Obama's Vice

    Presidential Search Committee

    IF OBAMA PLANS ON CLEANING UP THE MESS - HIS ADVISORS HAVE THEEXPERTISE
    - THEY

    MADE THE MESS IN THE FIRST PLACE. Would you trustthe men who
    tore Wall Street down to build the New Wall Street ?



    Snopes says that this info linking Obama is not entirely true butit
    still stinks.
    bf

    snopes.com: Obama's

    Fannie MaeEconomic

    Advisors
    <
    [COLOR

    =#0000ff]http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/fanniemae.asp
    [/COLOR]
    >


    To compel a man to subsidize with his taxes the propagation of ideas which he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical.

    Thomas Jefferson

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    Moderator idesign's Avatar
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    Good posts Bel, and they only

    scratch the surface.

    Its a damnable shame on the MSM that real investigative reporting is so skewed now that

    the public is ill-served pretty much to the point of propaganda. Anyone, give me evidence to the contrary and I'll

    listen.

    Its a secret hidden only from the public that Freddie and Fannie have been in bed with the Dems for

    years, going back to the Clinton admin. Gov't policies to push lenders to underwrite high-risk mortgages - with

    loads of mismanaged cash guarantees from Fred and Fannie - have been popular in Congress since Christ anointed Dan

    Rather but, unfortunately, didn't fall with his eventual demise.

    Couple gov't produced artificial markets with

    natural greed and you get a crisis. Congress pressured the market with policy, Investment Bankers sucked the tit,

    and you and I get sour milk. Throw in the Fed Reserve Bank driving rates down and you get more artificial money

    incentivising bad debt.

    There are many more factors at play here of course. But I think one has to look

    broadly at what fundamentally informs our positions. The debate in front of us should be more philosophically

    driven, and not based on "fixes".

    I'm only mildly amazed that a bailout bill was voted down due to popular

    opposition, and then gets passed after loading it up with a bunch of trash. I simply want to tear out my few

    remaining hairs. Good thing I've learned to properly place my emotional priorities.
    Last edited by idesign; 10-03-2008 at 07:59 PM. Reason: I can't think of everything


  22. #382
    Moderator belgareth's Avatar
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    They basically support what I

    have been saying for some time now. The current way of doing business is not sustainable and is leading to a point

    of collapse. Better the collapse now than later because the longer we wait the worse the impact is going to be.
    To compel a man to subsidize with his taxes the propagation of ideas which he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical.

    Thomas Jefferson

  23. #383
    Administrator Bruce's Avatar
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    I would love to see this guy at the

    helm
    http://de.youtube.com/watch?v=WRUo0ycRWic&feature=dir
    To enjoy good health, to bring true happiness to one's family, to bring peace to all, one must first discipline and control one's own mind. If a man can control his mind he can find the way to Enlightenment, and all wisdom and virtue will naturally come to him.

    - Buddha


    Yoga in Eugene
    Fair Trade crafts from Peru

  24. #384
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    I'm not bothering myself

    over this election anymore. I'll write-in Ron Paul for President, vote for my Congresswoman Carol Shea-Porter,

    Dem, who stood her ground and voted twice not to support the bailout, and then write in either Beavis or Butthead

    for the rest of slate.
    There is a cure for electile dysfuntion!!!!

  25. #385
    Phero Enthusiast stuttgart-man's Avatar
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    have found an interesting

    site about US election:
    http://www.electoral-vote.com/icon.html

  26. #386
    Moderator belgareth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by koolking1 View Post
    I'm

    not bothering myself over this election anymore. I'll write-in Ron Paul for President, vote for my Congresswoman

    Carol Shea-Porter, Dem, who stood her ground and voted twice not to support the bailout, and then write in either

    Beavis or Butthead for the rest of slate.
    Yeah, I pretty much feel the same way. More likely to vote for a

    Disney or Warner Brothers character than anybody whom the media have decided can run for president.
    To compel a man to subsidize with his taxes the propagation of ideas which he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical.

    Thomas Jefferson

  27. #387
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    Quote Originally Posted by koolking1 View Post
    I'm not

    bothering myself over this election anymore. I'll write-in Ron Paul for President, vote for my Congresswoman Carol

    Shea-Porter, Dem, who stood her ground and voted twice not to support the bailout, and then write in either Beavis

    or Butthead for the rest of slate.
    Hahaha... sounds like a plan.

    +1
    If a guy's a cocksucker in his life, when he dies, he don't become a saint. - Morris Levy, Hitmen

    Holmes' Theme Song

  28. #388
    Moderator idesign's Avatar
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    Where's Pat Paulson when you

    need him? Anyone remember him and care to admit it?


  29. #389
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    Default Pat Paulson

    I was but a mere

    child, that's all I'll admit to.

    Beavis and Butthead '08
    There is a cure for electile dysfuntion!!!!

  30. #390
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    Default one day to go,

    geez, seems like

    it's been going on forever. I don't expect things to get better no matter who wins.
    There is a cure for electile dysfuntion!!!!

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