Close

Page 2 of 4 FirstFirst ... 2 ... LastLast
Results 31 to 60 of 109
  1. #31
    Phero Guru
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Posts
    1,661
    Rep Power
    8003

    Default "Good question Alexey. A super-model I think..."

    visit-red-300x50PNG
    that was funny but unfortunately too close to the truth if our media is to be "The

    Decider".

    I'm enjoying this thread!!!!
    There is a cure for electile dysfuntion!!!!

  2. #32
    Moderator idesign's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Middle Kingdom
    Posts
    2,400
    Rep Power
    6373

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Alex157 View Post

    Yes, many say about her the same

    things… It is strange, her husband is nobody’s fool, I think



    It seems that he is everybody's fool, as we

    see now, and, in my opinion, during his presidency.








  3. #33
    Phero Pro
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Posts
    815
    Rep Power
    8265

    Default

    The guy cheats at golf too.


  4. #34
    Moderator idesign's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Middle Kingdom
    Posts
    2,400
    Rep Power
    6373

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by tounge View Post
    The guy

    cheats at golf too.

    Be careful tongue, it all depends on the meaning of what the word "is" is.

    It can get you a few "strokes" on the golf course....

  5. #35
    Phero Pro
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Posts
    815
    Rep Power
    8265

    Default

    Like my Granddaddy told me,when he

    taught me the wonderful game of Golf.

    " A person who cheats at golf, can't be trusted at anything."

  6. #36
    Journeyman
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    52
    Rep Power
    5920

    Default





    You might also add

    the lawyers...




    Yes, Greg, I know that Americans don’t like lawyers very much







    Ok Alex, we will not drink and play cards in the same evening,

    unless you are like Pushkin.
    But

    if I win, you could pay your debt with a poem that would win the heart of a lovely Russian woman.




    Should I write in English? It will win the heart of a

    lovely Russian woman more likely




    My name is Joseph Gregory. My father is Odell.


    So your Russian

    name is Joseph Odellovich. Nothing difficult

    There are no second

    names in Russia





    Johnny Walker is a good drink, but I prefer single malt scotch,

    there are many.




    Yesterday a friend of my father brought Chivas Regal. Not bad stuff too,

    I think.


    I will

    bring you a bottle of Glenmorangie. Scotch is definitely not a lady's drink, but some women will drink it.


    Well, I think that

    the male drink is rum.




    I will tell you a story when we are drinking Scotch together.

    OK, when are going to vizit Moscow?




    I understand, it

    is the same worry that the West has with Putin. He is seen as a figure who is not known, and not predictable. Also,

    the history of Russia will always be "an enigma wrapped in a mystery". As with all countries, history and culture

    are a weight which moves slowly and with much effort.




    The problem is that PUtin (and his guys too) is the most predictable one

    from all our politicians. He has a quite clear idea. To make Russia more stable and rich and then to start

    experiments with democracy.

    Actually, I am a pro-Western person, but I

    am against democracy here now. We haven’t a middle class and without it it is a risky business.




    So, you are saying that the prostitutes are in good physical

    shape? Maybe I will visit you soon.

    [COLOR=

    black][/COLOR]
    Yeah, in great shape, everybody is welcome






    Yes, capitalism suffers when capital leaves the country. Its too

    bad. Political stability is the first requirement, you know this. That is the main question with the Putin dynasty.

    They must create an environment of national stability and growth.

    They

    try…


    You are right, politics will lead economics, and in Russia

    there has never been an environment conducive to capitalism.

    Well, I think that in the end of the XIX century Russia was

    a more or less normal European Empire. However as well as Germans and Japanese we had monarchy too long. It is not

    healthy.



    Again,

    spoken like nobody but a Russian can speak. You are a wonderful people waiting to be born into the world. What can

    you do? I suppose you can wait for time to deliver changes which may or may not happen. You've never had politics

    in your homes, and now you see the world but have no choices.




    The main problem is that talented youth prefer to leave the country, not

    to try to improve it. So far we have no chances for more or less good life in near future.




    I hope he is not cut from the same cloth as Putin.

    Believe me, the other our politicians are much worse. There

    are half-fascists as Zhirionvisy or the communist morons. But the worse thing is our stupid, worthless and ignorant

    so called ‘democrats’…





    Good question Alexey. A super-model I think...


    Well, now a joke is

    popular here - ‘whom you are going to vote for on the elections of Medvedev?’.


    It seems that your situation is a bit more complicated…


  7. #37
    Moderator idesign's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Middle Kingdom
    Posts
    2,400
    Rep Power
    6373

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Alex157 View Post

    The problem is that

    PUtin (and his guys too) is the most predictable one from all our politicians. He has a quite clear idea. To make

    Russia more stable and rich and then to start experiments with democracy.



    Actually, I am a pro-Western person, but I am against democracy here now. We

    haven’t a middle class and without it it is a risky business.



    Well, I think that in the

    end of the XIX century Russia was a more or less normal European Empire. However as well as Germans and Japanese we

    had monarchy too long. It is not healthy.


    Believe me, the other our

    politicians are much worse. There are half-fascists as Zhirionvisy or the communist morons. But the worse thing is

    our stupid, worthless and ignorant so called ‘democrats’…

    I

    understand what you say about Putin. For you, it is a question of progress, and it is imperative for certain things

    to be established after a long communist rule. Its true that without a middle class Russia could change from one

    socialism to another form of socialism.

    Do you see opportunities for a middle-class to grow? Is there a good

    environment for small business to start and prosper? What businesses are growing? Is employment increasing? Do

    you have any pets?

    I imagine that its difficult for a Russian to think about Democracy. We have talked about

    this. Your election choice of Medvedev is only slightly different than our "choices" of two parties. You have a

    choice with one face, ours has several.

    OK, let me be sure about it, I will visit, we will drink and play cards,

    I will win, you will write a beautiful poem to a beautiful Russian woman, I will meet her and be happy. I will

    bring the Scotch, do you prefer her to be blonde or brunette?
    Last edited by idesign; 02-10-2008 at 06:04 PM.

  8. #38
    Journeyman
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    52
    Rep Power
    5920

    Default





    I understand what

    you say about Putin. For you, it is a question of progress, and it is imperative for certain things to be

    established after a long communist rule. Its true that without a middle class Russia could change from one socialism

    to another form of socialism.






    I wouldn’t say that I am against socialism. My sister lives in France

    and they have much more socialism than we had in the Soviet Union. Actually, I think that the US have much of it

    too.



    Do you see

    opportunities for a middle-class to grow? Is there a good environment for small business to start and prosper?





    It is a difficult question. Under Yeltsin average mobsters in the Moscow

    region had some thousand dollars a moth (it was very good money – for comparison girls in the library near my house

    got $20 a month for full day work). Everything was so criminalized that it was difficult to distinguish business

    from crime.

    Plus don’t forget about fantastic corruption on all levels.

    Now the government got back the control over the country, but it means that you have to have your men in power to be

    protected. If your business becomes a problem for your rivals you will be crushed by them with a support of the

    authorities. For example, it is always easy to find out that you broke some rules of fire-safety or something like

    this. Your factory will be closed for inspection for a couple of months and it will be enough you never can raise

    again.


    What

    businesses are growing? Is employment increasing?





    I cannot say for special

    branches but salaries definitely grow. But again, nobody knows what happened tomorrow.



    Once again, till they

    haven’t built some political system it may fall any moment.





    Do you have any

    pets?


    You mean

    domestic animals? Well, I don’t like cats that much and a dog needs to be walked with it everyday – it is not

    possible for me

    What about you?



    I imagine that its difficult for a Russian to think about

    Democracy. We have talked about this. Your election choice of Medvedev is only slightly different than our "choices"

    of two parties.





    Well, first that’s because you are too right country . Actually, you

    have two similar right parties. In France, for example, they have really left and right parties. But all the same it

    is a choice. I think that a choice is possible between politically close candidates only. Yes, you can choose

    between Hitler and Lenin but one time only . The next elections are going to be some 70 years later.







    OK, let me be sure

    about it, I will visit, we will drink and play cards, I will win, you will write a beautiful poem to a beautiful

    Russian woman, I will meet her and be happy.




    OK, but if I win, you write a poem and I marry her. OK?






    I will bring the Scotch, do you prefer her to be blonde or

    brunette?


    I

    prefer red-hair girls

  9. #39
    Moderator idesign's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Middle Kingdom
    Posts
    2,400
    Rep Power
    6373

    Default

    Hi Alexey, I've been thinking

    about our conversation and I am deeply perplexed and disturbed. After reading your insightful posts I thought you

    were a smart man. Your last comments make me think you are not so intelligent. How can you prefer a red-hair girl?

    Everyone knows that a brunette is better.

    History has proven that red is inflammatory, look at Lenin and his

    passion for "Red". What a disaster!



    Seriously Alexey, I've been thinking about our discussion, and will

    contribute something hopefully meaningful.

  10. #40
    Moderator belgareth's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Location
    Lower Slovobia
    Posts
    7,961
    Rep Power
    8506

    Default

    Be nice now, my wife is a

    redhead!
    To compel a man to subsidize with his taxes the propagation of ideas which he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical.

    Thomas Jefferson

  11. #41
    Doctor of Scentology DrSmellThis's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Location
    Oregon
    Posts
    6,233
    Rep Power
    8656

    Default

    Redheads!!
    DrSmellThis (creator of P H E R O S)

  12. #42
    Journeyman
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    52
    Rep Power
    5920

    Default


    Hi Alexey, I've been thinking about our conversation and I

    am deeply perplexed and disturbed. After reading your insightful posts I thought you were a smart man. Your last

    comments make me think you are not so intelligent. How can you prefer a red-hair girl?





    Hi, Greg. I think that it is just a misunderstanding. I am really smart and it is a

    linguistic problem. There is a word

    рыжий[/FONT

    ]
    in Russian. It is something average between

    orange and yellow, I think. How hairs could be red in the first place if a person is not a punk or something like

    this?




    Everyone knows that a brunette is better.



    Well, brunettes are good too as well as blonds




    History has proven that red is inflammatory, look at Lenin

    and his passion for "Red". What a disaster!



    If Lenin was

    running about with a

    рыжий[FON

    T=Verdana]’ flag, I doubt that he would succeed…





    Seriously Alexey, I've been thinking about our discussion, and will contribute

    something hopefully meaningful.


    So you will

    be able to answer my question? Who is going to be your next president? I can tell you as a secret that the name

    of our one will be Medvedev. By the way, he is half-Jew. Maybe it is time for you to elect the half-black guy?



  13. #43
    Doctor of Scentology DrSmellThis's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Location
    Oregon
    Posts
    6,233
    Rep Power
    8656

    Default

    I like Kasparov a lot, at

    least as a man. I know a bit about his politics, but not enough to evaluate him thoughly. Too bad he has no chance

    in Russia, just like our best candidates have no chance here.
    DrSmellThis (creator of P H E R O S)

  14. #44
    Moderator idesign's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Middle Kingdom
    Posts
    2,400
    Rep Power
    6373

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Alex157 View Post

    Hi, Greg. I think that it is just a

    misunderstanding. I am really smart and it is a linguistic problem.



    Alexey, it is definitely a

    misunderstanding, and it is my mistake. My comments about "smart" and "intelligent" were only a joke about

    preferring red haired girls. Also, you can see that you have allies in your opinion!

    In our conversations I have

    always understood and appreciated your intelligence. I understand the linguistic problem with our communication,

    and I value our talks very much.



    Quote Originally Posted by Alex157 View Post
    Well, brunettes are

    good too as well as blonds


    I

    agree, hair color is less important than other things.





    Quote Originally Posted by Alex157 View Post
    So you will be able

    to answer my question? Who is going to be your next president? I can tell you as a secret that the name of our

    one will be Medvedev. By the way, he is half-Jew. Maybe it is time for you to elect the half-black guy?


    Medvedev? It is good to know such secrets! Yes, I understand about the

    half-black guy (Obama). Unfortunately he is an empty vessel.

    Do you think since Medvedev is half-Jew that

    Russian policy will change with the Arab countries? It is amazing that even a half-Jew will be President of Russia.

    Stalin will have diarrhea in his grave, as he deserves.

    I'm avoiding your question about our next President,

    and will will continue that strategy. My opinion about a future President is worth a cup of coffee, measured in

    rubles or US dollars, it is the same now. If you read other places on this forum you will see my opinion, but here

    it is a secret.
    Last edited by idesign; 02-28-2008 at 08:34 PM.

  15. #45
    Moderator idesign's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Middle Kingdom
    Posts
    2,400
    Rep Power
    6373

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by belgareth View Post
    Be nice

    now, my wife is a redhead!
    Quote Originally Posted by DrSmellThis View Post
    Redheads!!
    Did I say brunettes were

    better? Shame on me.

  16. #46
    Journeyman
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    52
    Rep Power
    5920

    Default

    I like

    Kasparov a lot, at least as a man. I know a bit about his politics, but not enough to evaluate him thoughly. Too bad

    he has no chance in Russia



    Yes, he has not a least chance.









    [F

    ONT=Arial][/FO

    NT]

    [FONT=Arial][/FON

    T]

    His most close ally is Limonov, a leader of the National-Bolshevik party with the

    Soviet emblem on the Hitler’s flag. He encourages young guys for hooligan actions against the authorities and

    when they are put in jail, he tries to capitalize on their broken lives. He got a sentence for organization of an

    armed Nazi gang, but was pardoned then, of course, the Kremlin needs such guys.


    The third guy in this beautiful company is a former Putin’s prime

    minister Michael Kasyanov, a thief with a nickname ‘Misha two percents’.


    Kasparov has a good command of English and manages to show himself as a

    leader of Russian democracy (he had 10 of his articles published in the Washington Post for a month!!!!) but in

    reality his popularity even among democrats is close to zero.

    We really

    had quite enough of people with Hitler’s and Bolshevik’s flags in their hands…



    But he was a good chess player and I am sure that

    now he really thinks that he is absolutely right… Alas, it is a key characteristic of the soviet mentality.


  17. #47
    Journeyman
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    52
    Rep Power
    5920

    Default

    Alexey, it

    is definitely a misunderstanding, and it is my mistake. My comments about "smart" and "intelligent" were only a joke

    about preferring red haired girls.





    Greg, I understood your joke but unfortunately my answer was not a joke. It was a sheer lie.

    I am not smart and since it is impossible to cover it for a long time it is a good opportunity now to say about it

    But also I cannot say that I am stupid – it is something average and I think that it is not the worst case




    Also, you can see that you have allies

    in your opinion!




    That’s why I said it. I know that many

    like red-hair girls and tried to make friends here.



    In our

    conversations I have always understood and appreciated your intelligence.





    Well, as I said my intelligence is an optimal balance between

    smartness and idiocy I won’t invent a wheel but not a complete idiot. : ) Putin likes such ones most of all.




    I understand the linguistic problem

    with our communication, and I value our talks very much.





    Me too. I like the place. I also attend the AWE forum where people exchange with floods of

    four-letter insults but there is a more homely atmosphere here





    I agree, hair color is less important than other things.


    You mean a color of eyes? Yes, maybe it is even more

    important than if is a girl a blond or a brunette…






    Medvedev? It is good to know such secrets! Yes, I understand about the

    half-black guy (Obama). Unfortunately he is an empty vessel.







    Really? So Mrs. Clinton will be a Democrat candidate?


    It is strange but everybody here discusses Obama and Clinton, but I

    don’t even know who will be run from Republicans.





    Do you think since

    Medvedev is half-Jew that Russian policy will change with the Arab countries?






    Actually, we have good

    relations with Israel as it is. However, maybe you are right and he’ll change a bit the foreign policy. It hadn’t

    come in my head…





    It is amazing that even a half-Jew will be President of Russia.

    Stalin will have diarrhea in his grave, as he deserves.







    Well, I am not sure that Stalin was an anti-Semite. There were many Jews

    in his company. Stalin exterminated anybody who he considered as a threat, not by racial reasons. Indeed his started

    an anti-Semite campaign and as they said even planned public execution of Jews (personally, I think that it was one

    of the reasons why he was killed – it was too much for the communists), but at that time he was already so crazy

    that it might be any other nation. Judging by the documentaries he hardly understood what he was doing that time.






    I'm avoiding your

    question about our next President, and will will continue that strategy.

    My opinion about a future

    President is worth a cup of coffee, measured in rubles or US dollars







    It was a joke about the currency rate in the Soviet Union among pounds,

    dollars and rubles – a pound of well-dried rubles costs a dollar.





    it is the same now.

    If you read other places on this forum you will see my opinion, but here it is a secret.






    Well, maybe you’ll tell me the name a bit later



  18. #48
    Doctor of Scentology DrSmellThis's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Location
    Oregon
    Posts
    6,233
    Rep Power
    8656

    Default

    Thanks for the interesting

    perspective on Mr. Gary Kasparov.

    My exposure to him came through international chess culture, within which he

    seemed like a great guy, an admirer of Western things, and defender of democracy. I hung out on his website a lot

    for a while. Within that arena, he demonstrated a lot of integrity where others didn't, was very rational, and was

    respectful of others regardless of background.

    Certainly, if he is a Nazi, that is a problem.
    DrSmellThis (creator of P H E R O S)

  19. #49
    Journeyman
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    52
    Rep Power
    5920

    Default

    Certainly, if he is a Nazi, that is a problem.




    Of course not! Nothing of the kind.
    Actually, I wouldn’t call Limonov a Nazi too now.
    He is

    for democracy now and I would agree with most of what he SAYS. However, it has nothing in common with what he thinks

    if he does it at all. When he shot from a gun on Sarajevo he was a ‘patriot’, then he was a

    ‘nationalist’, now he is a ‘democrat’. In reality he is a yellow writer and does anything

    possible to be popular.

    What is on the photo is not real Nazis or

    Bolsheviks – it is a political circus. As well as our ‘democrats’ are just clowns. I say it so

    confident since I worked with one of our two ‘democratic’ parties and know everything there. When I

    watched them on TV I thought the same you think about Kasparov. When I talked to them I saw who they are…



    As for Kasparov he is so blind in his desire to fight against the

    regime that cannot understand that the connection with such persons kills any chances to be supported by people.




    an admirer of Western things, and defender of democracy. I

    hung out on his website a lot for a while. Within that arena, he demonstrated a lot of integrity where others

    didn't, was very rational, and was respectful of others regardless of background.






    in words yes. But when it comes to a question who should be a leader of the

    organization and how to decide what to do, all Russian democrats forget in a second about democracy. Who will be a

    leader of the Russian democratic party (it is obvious that there is no pro-Western electorate for 10 or even 2 such

    parties)? Me! Me!!! Me!!!!! Me!!!!!!!!!!!

    All they said is very logical

    and rational except for one very verrrry small thing. They forget that people wanted democracy here. But our

    democrats were so selfish, greedy, worthless and ignorant that people just hadn’t any choice but to vote for

    the FSB colonel.


    Imagine that you live in town where an average

    salary is $20 a month and all town is under the bandits who kill, rape and rob everybody. And some day guys in

    uniform come and say – do you want democracy further, lads, or you allow us to put some order here? We

    don’t promise you freedom and democracy but you don’t deserve it as you can see it

    yourselves.

    What will be an answer? Russians said yes, we want some

    order.


    Now Kasparov (under Hitler’s flags in addition) is

    trying to explain Russians that their choice was wrong. The only thing I can answer him – yes, you are right

    and I am wrong, but I prefer to be wrong.

    The former KGB agents under

    the Putin’s command fought against the bandits and they won. And, yes, they did it according their lights.

    They just shoot anybody who didn’t understand that times changed.




    Before I understand what Kasparov and other democrats want – either bandits again

    or us to fight them while they will babble – I won’t raise a finger as well as the absolute majority of

    the Russians

  20. #50
    Journeyman
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    52
    Rep Power
    5920

    Default

    anyway I asked Kasparov's

    supporters what they themselves think of it

    http://forum.kasparov.ru/viewtopic.php?p=65004#65004

  21. #51
    Doctor of Scentology DrSmellThis's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Location
    Oregon
    Posts
    6,233
    Rep Power
    8656

    Default

    I certainly can't comment on

    Limonov, other than to say I'd like eventually to learn more.

    But a lot of what I hear you saying is that

    Kasparov is an idealist without a practical method of helping Russians achieve democracy. One major problem you

    bring up is that criminals and thugs are in power positions under the guise of democracy, and abusing the people in

    every unspeakable way.

    The apparent conflict between democracy and safety happens lots of places around the

    world. For lots of reasons, I'd never want to tell another people what kind of government and legal system they

    should have.

    The fact of having a formal democracy -- in name -- in no way means one's rulership and political

    system can't be horrible. That's just one variable.

    To everyone, some measure of safety and security is of

    paramount importance when you don't have it.

    Is it possible to instill public safety and basic human rights

    while constructing a democracy in populations where lawlessness and corruption rule?

    I think so, but that

    doesn't mean things in Russia are set up with the right leaders and popular support to do it now. My sincere hope

    for Russia is that it happens sooner rather than later; and that you will see practical steps taken on a regular

    basis. It has to come from the people.

    You have to have rule of law for everyone, including the rich and

    powerful.

    We have problems related to that here, but they now look very different. Democracy always carries with

    it the problem of the powerful exploiting the weak, since in an absolute form of democracy, people and entities are

    free to take as much power as they can, no matter how greedy they are. That is why we have laws regulating

    corporations, and problems here with the widening gap between the rich and poor. Here our "Democrats" have one

    approach to the problem, and Republicans another, for example. (Some would argue their approaches are too similar,

    and both fail.)

    Democracy without justice is failed democracy.

    But in the early days of our country, with

    the "wild west" (population where law had not yet been established) and Native American wars, there was rampant

    lawlessness and violence in many places.

    I'd never recommend anyone to do it the way we did, even though it

    more or less worked out over time.

    You all have to find your own path.

    As a nation, we certainly need to

    keep practicality in mind when supporting the Russian people, and not blindly try to force some ideal of democracy

    down people's throats. As a nation, we've been too "black and white" in our thinking and behavior in this

    respect.
    Last edited by DrSmellThis; 02-29-2008 at 06:11 PM.
    DrSmellThis (creator of P H E R O S)

  22. #52
    Moderator idesign's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Middle Kingdom
    Posts
    2,400
    Rep Power
    6373

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Alex157 View Post
    I wouldn’t call Limonov a Nazi too now.


    He is for democracy now and I would agree with most of what he SAYS.

    However, it has nothing in common with what he thinks if he does it at all. When he shot from a gun on Sarajevo he

    was a ‘patriot’, then he was a ‘nationalist’, now he is a ‘democrat’. In reality

    he is a yellow writer and does anything possible to be popular.


    It seems that your politicians are learning the American style of politics. However, in our "advanced"

    politics, the candidates will say as little as possible about what they really think. Limonov changes his position

    to be popular, our candidates work 24 hours to find ways to be popular without taking a real position.



    Quote Originally Posted by Alex157 View Post
    As for Kasparov he is so blind in his desire

    to fight against the regime that cannot understand that the connection with such persons kills any chances to be

    supported by people.
    Kasparov is an amateur, he will find

    more moderate allies in the future, if he is as smart in politics as he is in chess.





    Quote Originally Posted by Alex157 View Post
    But when it comes to a question who should be a leader of the

    organization and how to decide what to do, all Russian democrats forget in a second about democracy. Who will be a

    leader of the Russian democratic party (it is obvious that there is no pro-Western electorate for 10 or even 2 such

    parties)? Me! Me!!! Me!!!!! Me!!!!!!!!!!!

    All they said is very logical

    and rational except for one very verrrry small thing. They forget that people wanted democracy here.



    I wonder if this is because Russians have no experience,

    perhaps even no idea about how the democratic process works? A young Democracy requires unselfish leaders who have

    more interest in advancing freedom than their own particular interests. This is very distant from any Russian

    social or political experience.

    I think that in Russia, Democracy will not be "born", but will grow. But only if

    there is a leader to articulate and inspire such an idea to the people. DrSmellThis said this, it is a movement of

    the people, with a leader who thinks about freedom more than self

    interest.


    Quote Originally Posted by Alex157 View Post
    But our democrats were so selfish,

    greedy, worthless and ignorant that people just hadn’t any choice but to vote for the FSB colonel.



    see above comments about Democrats.

    Perhaps Putin is a

    necessary transitional figure. Do you think Russia needs such a leader to establish order so that other political

    parties have time to mature?

    Quote Originally Posted by Alex157 View Post
    Before I

    understand what Kasparov and other democrats want – either bandits again or us to fight them while they will

    babble – I won’t raise a finger as well as the absolute majority of the Russians

    DST has written most eloquently on this question, I cannot improve on his

    comments.



    I cannot forecast to you the action of

    Russia. It is a riddle wrapped in a mystery inside an enigma: but perhaps there is a key. That key is Russian

    national interest.



    Sir Winston Churchill (1874 - 1965), Radio speech, 1939


    Alexey, what do you think of

    this quote as it applies to modern Russia?

  23. #53
    Moderator idesign's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Middle Kingdom
    Posts
    2,400
    Rep Power
    6373

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by DrSmellThis View Post



    As a nation, we certainly need to keep practicality in mind when supporting the Russian people, and not blindly

    try to force some ideal of democracy down people's throats. As a nation, we've been too "black and white" in our

    thinking and behavior in this respect.
    Doc, great post. I printed it so I can read it at leisure and

    develop thoughts.

    As for this last section, I totally agree that we need to support and help countries develop

    their *own* manner of governing. I do think that the idea of Democracy is flexible enough to encompass any number

    of "tailored" systems, some perhaps more centrally controlled, some less so.

  24. #54
    Moderator belgareth's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Location
    Lower Slovobia
    Posts
    7,961
    Rep Power
    8506

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by DrSmellThis View Post
    I

    certainly can't comment on Limonov, other than to say I'd like eventually to learn more.

    But a lot of what I

    hear you saying is that Kasparov is an idealist without a practical method of helping Russians achieve democracy.

    One major problem you bring up is that criminals and thugs are in power positions under the guise of democracy, and

    abusing the people in every unspeakable way.

    The apparent conflict between democracy and safety happens lots of

    places around the world. For lots of reasons, I'd never want to tell another people what kind of government and

    legal system they should have.

    The fact of having a formal democracy -- in name -- in no way means one's

    rulership and political system can't be horrible. That's just one variable.

    To everyone, some measure of

    safety and security is of paramount importance when you don't have it.

    Is it possible to instill public safety

    and basic human rights while constructing a democracy in populations where lawlessness and corruption rule?

    I

    think so, but that doesn't mean things in Russia are set up with the right leaders and popular support to do it

    now. My sincere hope for Russia is that it happens sooner rather than later; and that you will see practical steps

    taken on a regular basis. It has to come from the people.

    You have to have rule of law for everyone, including

    the rich and powerful.

    We have problems related to that here, but they now look very different. Democracy always

    carries with it the problem of the powerful exploiting the weak, since in an absolute form of democracy, people and

    entities are free to take as much power as they can, no matter how greedy they are. That is why we have laws

    regulating corporations, and problems here with the widening gap between the rich and poor. Here our "Democrats"

    have one approach to the problem, and Republicans another, for example. (Some would argue their approaches are too

    similar, and both fail.)

    Democracy without justice is failed democracy.

    But in the early days of our

    country, with the "wild west" (population where law had not yet been established) and Native American wars, there

    was rampant lawlessness and violence in many places.

    I'd never recommend anyone to do it the way we did, even

    though it more or less worked out over time.

    You all have to find your own path.

    As a nation, we certainly

    need to keep practicality in mind when supporting the Russian people, and not blindly try to force some ideal of

    democracy down people's throats. As a nation, we've been too "black and white" in our thinking and behavior in

    this respect.
    Mostly I agree with what you are saying but I think you are putting forth a misconception

    about the early days of this country. There was far less lawlessness here than the movies would have you believe,

    for many reasons. One is that people were more spread out and conflict happened less often. People had to rely on

    their neighbors far more than they do today which discouraged lawlessness, or if not lawlessness, bad behavoir.

    Being rejected by your neighbors often was a death sentence of sorts because nobody can be totally self sufficient

    so people have more reasons to get along.

    Another factor was the type of people and the realities of life on the

    frontier. People were more able to defend themselves, many being former soldiers. Many a would be criminal ended

    their days hung from a large tree or shot.

    A good point that you seem to be trying to make further on is about

    democracy. In the truest sense of the word, as a democratic society, we have no right to tell other nations what

    type of government they can or should have. They should be left to freely choose whatever they wish for themselves.

    Of course, there are all sorts of 'if', 'ands' and 'buts' involved in that concept. However, generally

    speaking, we need to get our noses out of other nations' governments unless we wish to admit to our own

    hypocrisy.
    To compel a man to subsidize with his taxes the propagation of ideas which he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical.

    Thomas Jefferson

  25. #55
    Moderator idesign's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Middle Kingdom
    Posts
    2,400
    Rep Power
    6373

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by belgareth View Post
    Of

    course, there are all sorts of 'if', 'ands' and 'buts' involved in that concept. However, generally speaking,

    we need to get our noses out of other nations' governments unless we wish to admit to our own

    hypocrisy.
    You don't have to be perfect to give advice or, indeed, to intervene.

  26. #56
    Journeyman
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    52
    Rep Power
    5920

    Default

    DrSmellThis,




    I certainly can't

    comment on Limonov, other than to say I'd like eventually to learn more.




    Well, if this guy is

    worth of any close attention His influence is close to zero. By they way, he had been living in the US for a long

    time and I think that some his books are translated in English.





    But a lot of what I hear you saying is that Kasparov is an

    idealist without a practical method of helping Russians achieve democracy.





    Yes, absolutely. I would say more – his real actions (as well as ones of

    other our democrats) have nothing to do with his own ideals.

    When he

    writes articles for the Western media or talks something on our ‘democratic’ radio station Echo of Moscow he is a

    democrat.

    He would try to create a democratic party in Russia. But he

    knows that nobody would deal with Limonov and he chooses Limonov since it is easier for him to have such an ally

    (who gives immediately guys who are ready to go on the streets and protest against Putin) then to try to make some

    real steps for creating such a party. If it is a really democratic party there will be internal elections there. And

    where is a guarantee that Kasparov will be elected a leader? So it is much more convenient to agree with Limonov and

    that crook Kasyanov that there will be not a party but just a public organization with three leaders who appointed

    themselves.


    The same

    happened with another our ‘democrat’ Yavlinsky. He is much more clever and incomparably more popular in Russia than

    Kasparov. But only position he can accept is to be a LEADER of the party. He knows that he is only proper man for

    this post.

    So he had been TALKING about democracy for 15 YEARS.


    And he had been DOING all possible and impossible so that his own party

    hadn’t been democratic. And the most interesting thing is that only among people with belief in democracy here still

    there are some people (however less and less) who don’t understand that he is a liar and an accomplished crook. “He

    says right things’ is theirs answer. They prefer to believe in democracy than to see obvious things.



    Yes, Kasparov says ‘right

    things’ too. But he neither wants nor is able to do anything toward these right things.



    Look at his forum. Only

    three persons answered something to my questions in English. I never got from Dpinrock (Deep Purple in Rock)

    something sensible neither in Russian nor now in English (I had been to the forum a year ago). Jersy lives in

    Poland.

    And it reflects the situation. The forum is famous for rudeness

    and ignorance of its moderators and participants. As soon as you write something bad about Kasparov you get a squall

    of insults. Everything they don’t like moderators moved to special threads named ‘a pile of rubbish#1’, ‘a pile of

    rubbish#2’ and so on. Nobody wants to talk with them and they are not able to talk to anybody who is not a fanatic

    of Kasparov.


    So there are

    two great advantages of Kasparov in the West. He knows English well and Americans don’t know Russian





    Greg,




    It seems

    that your politicians are learning the American style of politics. However, in our "advanced" politics, the

    candidates will say as little as possible about what they really think. Limonov changes his position to be popular,

    our candidates work 24 hours to find ways to be popular without taking a real position.


    Oh, yes. I

    think that it is a key point. Limonov has some popularity indeed (rather he had it), but it is very cheap one.


    He gets some supporters (less and less after the next changing

    of his position) but simultaneously loses much more every time.

    I am sure that you indeed are not able to be in ‘advanced’ politics if you state what you think. You have to

    know what your electorate thinks.

    If you read the Kasparov forum

    the discussion between me and Jerzy boils down to a question is Limonov’s flag a ‘Hitler’s’ one.


    I argue that yes, and he argues, that no, it is not a Hitler’s

    flag.

    No doubt that both of us will think that we are right even

    if we are arguing for year. It is OK as long as we are just citizens.

    But I am sure that if Kasparov takes participation in our conversation (he wrote there some time ago) he would

    prove me that he is absolutely right and the flag is not Hitler’s one.

    That is, I would be able to do nothing but to say to him ‘Garry, you are right and I am wrong since I just

    have no strengths to argue with you anymore. You won, my congratulations. Well, of course, I will never vote for

    you, but I think that it won’t upset you much. You can always say that the elections were fixed and damned Putin

    took my vote from you’.

    I saw it everyday on the site of the

    democratic party Yabloko. I even participated in trying to organize Internet meetings between representatives of the

    party and electors (rather, I did it practically alone ). They are not able to do it neither in reality nor in

    the Net. They have Yavlinksy who is able to come to TV and to criticize the authorities. But none of them is able to

    talk to electors since all electors have wrong opinions of their own and our ‘democratic’ politicians are above

    talking to people with wrong views. What sense in it? They find some idiots who are ready for free to hang around on

    forums, appoint them administrators and moderators and they explain electors that they are fools with wrong views.

    Of course, since they have a possibility to delete electors’ posts and ban them they usually win. I remember as

    a regional leader of Yabloko after an idiotic insult in my address in his Live Journal suggested me to vote for them

    after it . Well, I wrote to the leadership of the party and got some excuses (only in private from a couple of

    leaders of the party) but I did it just to see if it is possible to get excuses from them even in such a situation.

    An average person just will never vote for them and ask all his/her friends not to do it. Say, the Democratic party

    of the US will decide to have a forum and a representative of the party would call a woman there ‘this creature’

    just for some critics of their candidates as a representative of Yabloko did at their site. Will it add many votes

    to them?

    And as a result a little problem is that Yabloko got

    2% on the last elections and nobody attends their sites and forums anymore but they know that they are right.


    Of course, a politician who wants to have support cannot behave

    this way. Electors are right, not he…

    Kasparov is an

    amateur, he will find more moderate allies in the future, if he is as smart in politics as he is in chess.



    Well, let me

    translate what Sn (by the way, he lives in the US and could write in English since I told him that it is for

    Americans but he doesn’t give a damn for anybody, of course) and Vladimir wrote in Russian on the Kasparovs’ forum.



    Sn: Limonov had wrote even

    in his early books that he was an admirer of Nazi’s leaders. But now he become wiser and maybe he even will admit

    that it was not good for them to kill Jews in the Ukraine. (Limonov is Ukrainian, his real name is Sovenko).


    Vladimir: if he were wiser he would disband his stinking party and have

    shoved his flag in a water-closet pan long time ago.




    Personally, I think that if Kasparov were able to be a real politician,

    he would understand long time ago that after this friendship with Limonov his political career is over forever.


    But I think that he just believe that Putin is bad. And since he fought

    against him he is good.

    Of course, he wants a democratic party in

    Russian. But why we have to start with him? Democracy in Russia is much more important. When we have free TV, honest

    elections and the like his organization will be democratic too. It is not his fault that now nobody but Limonov

    doesn’t want to support such a good guy as he is.

    If he were a

    politician and could be able imagine what other people think, not he only, he would understand that people don’t

    want abstract free TV and abstract honest elections. They don’t want to be killed, raped and robbed under nice

    talking about democracy as in 90s. It seems that he is not able to understand it.






    I wonder if this is because Russians have no experience, perhaps even no

    idea about how the democratic process works?




    Absolutely. Even the party officials of ‘democratic’ parties either have

    not a clue about it or affect ignorance since it is not useful for them. Democracy means internal elections in their

    parties and they want it as a wolf wants a ban on eating meat



    I think that in Russia, Democracy will not be "born", but will grow. But

    only if there is a leader to articulate and inspire such an idea to the people. DrSmellThis said this, it is a

    movement of the people, with a leader who thinks about freedom more than self

    interest.





    Well, I think that

    it is a matter of time. Some day we will have such leader.




    Perhaps Putin

    is a necessary transitional figure. Do you think Russia needs such a leader to establish order so that other

    political parties have time to mature?






    Why ‘needs’? We have already had a second one – Medvedev . By the

    way, Putin makes some attempts to create a second party. But people don’t want it – they prefer to have one real

    party, it more traditional for us


  27. #57
    Moderator belgareth's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Location
    Lower Slovobia
    Posts
    7,961
    Rep Power
    8506

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by idesign View Post
    You

    don't have to be perfect to give advice or, indeed, to intervene.
    It's the intervening that bothers me.

    We do not have the right to intervene in other country's affairs. We do not have the right to tell them or in any

    way push them towards the type of government we want them to have. If we want to claim democracy we have to allow

    other countries to choose the type of government they want without outside pressure. Our only role is to defend

    their right to choose, nothing more.
    To compel a man to subsidize with his taxes the propagation of ideas which he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical.

    Thomas Jefferson

  28. #58
    Phero Pro
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Posts
    815
    Rep Power
    8265

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by belgareth View Post
    It's the

    intervening that bothers me. We do not have the right to intervene in other country's affairs. We do not have the

    right to tell them or in any way push them towards the type of government we want them to have. If we want to claim

    democracy we have to allow other countries to choose the type of government they want without outside pressure. Our

    only role is to defend their right to choose, nothing more.




    Agree with what you have posted.

    However there can really be no true democracy anywhere.

    That is why the founding fathers of the US set up a

    REPRESENITIVE REPUBLIC. With an electoral college. Very, very wise indeed.

    A true democracy will eventually be

    doomed to failure. In its simplest form a democracy could be two wolves and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.

    Won't last long. A democracy established in a place like Iraq, would eventually be taken over by a sect that was

    fairly elected into power by a majority and then that sect changes law to whatever their whim will be. In essence

    making it likely that they will never be voted out.

    I don't think there has ever been a nation in the history

    of the earth that has been governed by a true democracy, for more than a blip in history.

  29. #59
    Moderator belgareth's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Location
    Lower Slovobia
    Posts
    7,961
    Rep Power
    8506

    Default

    Good point. It doesn't change

    the fact that we have no business interferring with their right to choose what government they have.
    To compel a man to subsidize with his taxes the propagation of ideas which he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical.

    Thomas Jefferson

  30. #60
    Moderator idesign's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Middle Kingdom
    Posts
    2,400
    Rep Power
    6373

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Alex157 View Post
    But I think that he (Kasparov) just believe that Putin is bad.

    And since he fought against him he is good.


    The Democratic

    Party in the US is doing the same thing. Their central message is change from Bush. They do not talk in detail

    about what they believe. They will not say "We want to take more of your money in taxes and increase government

    control over every life". They say instead "We want to give you "free" healthcare".



    Quote Originally Posted by Alex157 View Post
    If he were a politician and could be able imagine what other

    people think, not he only, he would understand that people don’t want abstract free TV and abstract honest

    elections. They don’t want to be killed, raped and robbed under nice talking about democracy as in 90s. It

    seems that he is not able to understand it.


    Even the party officials

    of ‘democratic’ parties either have not a clue about it or affect ignorance since it is not useful for

    them. Democracy means internal elections in their parties and they want it as a wolf wants a ban on eating meat



    Why ‘needs’?

    We have already had a second one – Medvedev . By the way, Putin makes some attempts to create a second

    party. But people don’t want it – they prefer to have one real party, it more traditional for us

    Reading your words helps me understand better what I have been thinking. The weight

    and inertia of your history may be impossible to alter. The Russian desire for a strong central leader is a

    cultural enigma. With a leader such as Putin or (apparently) Medvedev, you have the security and safety of a Czar

    with the beginnings of personal freedom and economic prosperity.

    It raises another question: do you think the

    "average" Russian cares about politics in a pure sense? Of course everyone thinks about politics if they can see it

    effecting their life, but do you care about the structure of government or what its called?

    DrSmellThis asked an

    interesting question:

    "Is it possible to instill public safety and basic human rights while constructing a

    democracy in populations where lawlessness and corruption rule?"

    I think Putin has answered "yes". While he is

    not a real "democrat", he at least is moving away from certain vestiges of the past. What do you think?

    BTW,

    Colombia is an interesting study in security and democracy. What Uribe has done is nothing short of amazing. They

    still have problems with the FARC, but have turned the country around. Medellin's mayor, Fajardo, has done a great

    job in that city, former base of the now dead Escobar.

    My next question would be: to what extent do Russians

    desire a real democracy?

    Congratulations on your election Alexey. It was a tense moment waiting for the results.

    Last edited by idesign; 03-05-2008 at 04:27 PM.

Page 2 of 4 FirstFirst ... 2 ... LastLast

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •