Close

Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst ... 2 ... LastLast
Results 31 to 60 of 64
  1. #31
    Phero Enthusiast tenaciousBLADE's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Outside the U.S.
    Posts
    319
    Rep Power
    0

    Unhappy Read the whole long thread... Ineresting approaches there.

    visit-red-300x50PNG
    Well I've written a long reply, but decided not to post it after all


    JVkohl, take it easy. We're all individuals and as far as I know we're not against you, and we appritiate

    your cotribute to the forums.
    You want to threaten to quit giving your opinions - feel free it's your own choice

    (I'd rather you won't but I'll fight for your right to do so).
    But by all means - let everybody else say

    theirs'. Nobody's here to hurt you
    Misunderstandings do happen - but they can be fixed by a simple, polite

    explenation. You did such explaning yourself on this thread for example, by saying "Yes". No need to get

    offended

  2. #32
    Phero Enthusiast tenaciousBLADE's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Outside the U.S.
    Posts
    319
    Rep Power
    0

    Default

    Posted the last post

    before I saw you two last replies.
    I myself quote a whole lot... but quoting doesn't explain your point as well as

    your own explenations might.
    I remain saying what I just said above: relax a bit... take it easy

  3. #33
    Banned User jvkohl's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Location
    Northern Georgia
    Posts
    1,127
    Rep Power
    0

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by tenaciousBLADE View Post

    Nobody's here to hurt you
    Minimally, there is one person here who has done his best to contribute a

    series of defamatory statements about me both in this forum and in another similar forum. For

    example:

    Quote Originally Posted by DrSmellThis
    Mr. Kohl, is trained only as a hospital lab technician,... He has never

    designed and conducted a study, and has no training in research or statistics whatsoever, much less the social

    sciences. (... calling himself a "researcher" is a bit sketchy, by formal standards. And processing blood samples or

    whatever in a hospital does not make you a "clinical laboratory scientist", like he claims. It makes you a lab tech,

    period. It's not ethically OK to say that in the sciences. These are terms reserved for people who conduct studies

    and have an advanced degree.)
    ---------------------------------
    Excerpts from my response:
    I

    will stand by my introduction [on the other forum] and thank others for welcoming me.... More recently, I posted

    that I received an award for the author(s) of the best social science article, chapter, or book published during the

    previous year....

    You can verify my Clinical Laboratory Scientist credentials via links from my introduction:

    either to the National Credentialing Agency for Laboratory Personnel, or to the American Society for Clinical

    Laboratory Science, You can verify my use of "Researcher" by examining the membership requirements for the Society

    for Neuroscience. "All applicants... must be sponsored by two regular or emeritus members of the Society and must

    submit a curriculum vitae and bibliography with the application form." Sponsors attest that applicants have made a

    significant contribution to the field (e.g., via research).

    I helped to design several research studies. A

    student researcher and I presented the most recent research results in April 2007 at the Association for

    Chemoreception Sciences annual meeting.

    Discussions would be easier for me if defamatory comments about my

    credentials and expertise were either not anonymously made, or not made at

    all.
    ------------------------------------------------

    I've haven't heard anything from DrSmellThis since

    I refuted each one of his defamatory comments, with evidence that is available to anyone who wants to look at it. I

    chose to quote Meehl, rather than use my own words, to exemplify that training in research or statistics like social

    scientists receive may be meaningless here, despite their emphasis by DrSmellThis. The award I received for "the

    best social science article... published during the previous year" is an example of what happens when you don't

    allow others either to direct you, or to deter you from research you think is important. Academics are often

    directed and detered by their professors and by other academics, which brings me back to Meehl's comment about shoe

    sales.

    James V. Kohl
    author/creator: The Scent of Eros

  4. #34
    Phero Enthusiast tenaciousBLADE's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Outside the U.S.
    Posts
    319
    Rep Power
    0

    Default

    With all that said JVK,

    and with all due respect... You are generalizing what you claim to be HIS opinion on you (or agenda... i.e. "wanting

    to hurt you")... on everybody else on the forum. you come from a starting premise that we are ALL here to hurt you.

    Or you at least seem to doubt each one of us before you trust. Instead of coming up with such a mean rude attitude,

    you could simply come with the starting assumption that most of us DIDN'T come here to hurt you. Doing otherwise,

    would be (and is) disrespectful to us as mear human beings.

    Just take it easy man.

    This will be my

    last comment on this. So feel free to leash out if you feel the need for it :\

  5. #35
    Banned User jvkohl's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Location
    Northern Georgia
    Posts
    1,127
    Rep Power
    0

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by tenaciousBLADE View Post
    With

    all that said JVK, and with all due respect... You are generalizing what you claim to be HIS opinion on you (or

    agenda... i.e. "wanting to hurt you")... on everybody else on the forum. you come from a starting premise that we

    are ALL here to hurt you. Or you at least seem to doubt each one of us before you trust.
    With

    Bubba's support, DrSmellThis sufficiently managed to force me out of this forum for a while, because my responses

    were limited by the moderators, at Bruce's suggestion. With enough support from participants like you (there was

    some support at the time), I might not have dropped out at all. At the point that most of my posts were censured by

    the moderators, Forum members were only getting half the picture. I'm surprised that I've been able to tell the

    rest of the story in this thread. It takes very little for a few vocal participants to gain control of what is

    allowed to be seen on any Forum. My comments are not meant to implicate the majority of Forum members, who come here

    for information and to compare notes.

    Quote Originally Posted by tenaciousBLADE View Post
    Instead of coming up with such a mean rude

    attitude, you could simply come with the starting assumption that most of us DIDN'T come here to hurt you. Doing

    otherwise, would be (and is) disrespectful to us as mear human beings.
    I apologize for being

    either mean, or rude; that was not my intent.

    Quote Originally Posted by tenaciousBLADE View Post
    Just take it easy

    man.
    I will. Thanks.

    James V. Kohl
    author/creator: The Scent of Eros

  6. #36
    Moderator idesign's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Middle Kingdom
    Posts
    2,400
    Rep Power
    6383

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by jvkohl View Post
    With

    Bubba's support, DrSmellThis sufficiently managed to force me out of this forum for a while, because my responses

    were limited by the moderators, at Bruce's suggestion. With enough support from participants like you (there was

    some support at the time), I might not have dropped out at all. At the point that most of my posts were censured by

    the moderators, Forum members were only getting half the picture. I'm surprised that I've been able to tell the

    rest of the story in this thread. It takes very little for a few vocal participants to gain control of what is

    allowed to be seen on any Forum. My comments are not meant to implicate the majority of Forum members, who come here

    for information and to compare notes.
    I'm very curious now. What information was disallowed? Why

    do you think you were censured?

  7. #37
    Phero Master terry0400-40's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Where Velvet Darkness is Kissed by Golden Starlight
    Posts
    2,322
    Rep Power
    6780

    Default WELL hmmmm wow whats goin on

    IMHO The Man JVK is an individual who is plain and simply who and what he is, I

    personally dont doubt his credability especially now that i have been brought to focus on the Gentleman in the last

    few weeks,


    He has his own unique and individual style as a human product of his science and all factors

    considered he is contributing to the forum and imparting wisdom and reports as well as his own opinions and

    studies,




    and i am thankful that he is hanging around and just being who he is and thats all anyone can really

    do.


    Maby we

    have had enough of disecting and scrutenising the poor guy.


    I recon we all should reconsile our

    differences and move on whilst life is short and sweet.


    I for one will try and not be sutch a shit

    stirrer, And seeing as i am one of the least amoungst yous all will save my venom for any spammers that creep on to

    the forum BLAM BLAM to our real Enemies
    I AM. Out of my mind .... .... ....

  8. #38
    Moderator idesign's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Middle Kingdom
    Posts
    2,400
    Rep Power
    6383

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by terry0400-40 View Post
    IMHO The Man JVK is an individual who is plain and

    simply who and what he is, I personally dont doubt his credability especially now that i have been brought to focus

    on the Gentleman in the last few weeks,


    He has his own unique

    and individual style as a human product of his science and all factors considered he is contributing to the forum

    and imparting wisdom and reports as well as his own opinions and studies,


    and i am thankful that he is hanging around and just being who he is and thats all anyone can

    really do.


    Maby we have had enough of disecting and

    scrutenising the poor guy.


    I recon we all should reconsile our

    differences and move on whilst life is short and sweet.


    I for

    one will try and not be sutch a shit stirrer, And seeing as i am one of the least amoungst yous all will save my

    venom for any spammers that creep on to the forum BLAM BLAM to our real Enemies
    I

    agree with you Terry, and I try to follow the same guidelines of good behavior. I have no differences with anyone

    here. Certainly not with JVK, who is the only manufacturer who posts here, and creator of a product which has much

    respect from me and many others.

    I've not been a party to whatever "conflict" that may be occurring, and I'm

    not trying to stir anything, I'm just genuinely curious about JVK's comments, and perceptions of his treatment on

    this forum since I wasn't around during the time in question.

    I follow his posts with deference to his training,

    knowledge and experience.

    Cheers mate,
    Greg

    To JVK, my question was meant purely as an honest question

    because I'm curious. I don't know any of the background of your difficulties in the past vis a vis this forum,

    hence my curiosity. As for the current "conflict", I'm not interested. I completely understand your

    disinclination to engage opinion where scientific matters are concerned. And, BTW, thanks for such a great

    product.

    Most sincerely,
    Greg

  9. #39
    Banned User jvkohl's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Location
    Northern Georgia
    Posts
    1,127
    Rep Power
    0

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by idesign View Post
    I'm very

    curious now. What information was disallowed? Why do you think you were censured?
    I discussed the

    censured posts with one of the moderators and with Bruce in January 2007, and decided to post only to the "Pheromone

    Research" section.

    It is better designed for scientific purposes, like mine. No need to rehash this here.

    It's the Love-Scent Forum; not my forum.

    I have a popular domain where I can post whatever I like, but it's

    harder for me to update regularly. So, my posts to the "Pheromone Research" section are a matter of convenience, and

    they have helped me to avoid additional conflict here.

    DrSmellThis made some defamatory comments on another

    Forum, and linked back to the Love-Scent thread for support of his defamatory comments. He led me to look at posts

    that had gone from "Pheromone Research" to more general discussion, which brought me here. I'm not planning on any

    more debate, which is why I posted the comments DrSmellThis made and my response to them. I don't have time to

    debate either the "soft" science approach, or discuss the "soft" science comments with anonymous posters. I try to

    make time to discuss my "hard" science approach with anyone, anonymous or not, who wants to learn more about it.



    James V. Kohl
    author: The Scent of Eros and The Mind's Eyes
    creator: The Scent of Eros

    pheromone-enhanced products

  10. #40
    Banned User jvkohl's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Location
    Northern Georgia
    Posts
    1,127
    Rep Power
    0

    Default Hard Science and Soft Science

    Quote Originally Posted by terry0400-40 View Post
    He has his own unique and individual style as a human product of his science and all

    factors considered he is contributing to the forum and imparting wisdom and reports as well as his own opinions and

    studies

    Maby we have had enough of disecting and scrutenising the poor guy.
    Well said! My

    style is best suited for discussing facts, and usually this is with other "hard" scientists. Some have an ego that

    limits discussion of their opinions; most do not. But no researcher I know has an ego that limits their discussion

    of "hard" scientific facts, as I have recently been asked to do in conjunction with an award. (Award notice

    below):
    ---
    James V. Kohl has been selected to receive the Ira and Harriet Reiss Theory Award for 2007 from

    the Foundation for the Scientific Study of Sexuality (FSSS). The award is given annually for the best social science

    article, chapter, or book published in the previous year in which theoretical explanations of human sexual attitudes

    and behaviors are developed. Kohl's review: "The Mind's Eyes: Human Pheromones, Neuroscience, and Male Sexual

    Preferences" was published in the Journal of Psychology & Human Sexuality, 18(4): 313-369, and concurrently

    published as a book chapter in the "Handbook of the Evolution of Human Sexuality." In conjunction with the award,

    Kohl is an invited plenary session speaker at the annual meeting of the Society for the Scientific Study of

    Sexuality (SSSS) in November, 2007, which will be held in Indianapolis, Indiana.
    ---
    Some of you know about

    the award I received for my 2001 invited review that linked neuroscience and ethology. This latest award crosses

    from neuroscientific ("hard") science into social ("soft") science, and helps to extend my sphere of influence to

    the soft sciences. Nevertheless, I have never pretended to understand much about the soft sciences.

    James V.

    Kohl
    author/creator: The Scent of Eros

  11. #41
    Banned User jvkohl's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Location
    Northern Georgia
    Posts
    1,127
    Rep Power
    0

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by idesign View Post
    I agree with

    you Terry, and I try to follow the same guidelines of good behavior. I have no differences with anyone here.

    Certainly not with JVK, who is the only manufacturer who posts here, and creator of a product which has much respect

    from me and many others.
    Thanks. However, DrSmellThis and Archtypical Hybrid (HEC) are among other

    manufacturers who have posted here, which may help to explain some of our differences.



    Quote Originally Posted by idesign View Post
    To JVK, my question was meant purely as an honest question because I'm curious.

    I don't know any of the background of your difficulties in the past vis a vis this forum, hence my curiosity. As

    for the current "conflict", I'm not interested. I completely understand your disinclination to engage opinion

    where scientific matters are concerned. And, BTW, thanks for such a great product.
    Thanks again. I

    responded to your post because it was made out of curiousity, and not meant to cause conflict.

    James V.

    Kohl
    author/creator: The Scent of Eros

  12. #42
    Moderator idesign's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Middle Kingdom
    Posts
    2,400
    Rep Power
    6383

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by jvkohl View Post
    I discussed

    the censured posts with one of the moderators and with Bruce in January 2007, and decided to post only to the

    "Pheromone Research" section.

    It is better designed for scientific purposes, like mine. No need to rehash this

    here. It's the Love-Scent Forum; not my forum.

    I have a popular domain where I can post whatever I like, but

    it's harder for me to update regularly. So, my posts to the "Pheromone Research" section are a matter of

    convenience, and they have helped me to avoid additional conflict here.

    DrSmellThis made some defamatory comments

    on another Forum, and linked back to the Love-Scent thread for support of his defamatory comments. He led me to look

    at posts that had gone from "Pheromone Research" to more general discussion, which brought me here. I'm not

    planning on any more debate, which is why I posted the comments DrSmellThis made and my response to them. I don't

    have time to debate either the "soft" science approach, or discuss the "soft" science comments with anonymous

    posters. I try to make time to discuss my "hard" science approach with anyone, anonymous or not, who wants to learn

    more about it.

    James V. Kohl
    author: The Scent of Eros and The Mind's Eyes
    creator: The Scent of Eros

    pheromone-enhanced products
    Thanks for replying JVK, I think I'm beginning to understand your

    predicament. Science, business and politics make strange bedfellows.

    Opinion is the playground of both the

    knowledgeable and the ignorant. Sometimes its hard to tell which is which. An objective view requires a lot of due

    diligence.

    I follow your posts from a place of scientific ignorance, and admit it freely, but I do read

    extensively to learn and understand.

    In your field there is a fine line between biological and social function.

    You're examining the science of pheromonal effect and, sure, there is a huge social aspect. But is seems to me

    that scientific discovery is more than observation of behavior, which is all that social scientists can claim,

    imprtant as it is. Its good to see that you're crossing over.

    I do hope that you'll keep posting here. If I

    ever reach the point of sufficient understanding I might even ask a relevant question!

    Greg

  13. #43
    Phero Enthusiast tenaciousBLADE's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Outside the U.S.
    Posts
    319
    Rep Power
    0

    Exclamation One of my longest replies ever

    A few things JVK (most important is saved for last)...


    (My emphasize...)



    1)
    Quote Originally Posted by jvkohl View Post
    I discussed the censured posts with one of the moderators and with Bruce in January 2007,

    and decided to post only to the "Pheromone Research" section.

    It is better designed for

    scientific purposes, like mine.
    No need to rehash this here. It's the Love-Scent Forum; not my

    forum.

    I have a popular domain where I can post whatever I like, but it's harder for me to update regularly.

    So, my posts to the "Pheromone Research" section are a matter of convenience, and they have helped me to avoid

    additional conflict here.

    DrSmellThis made some defamatory comments on another Forum, and linked back to

    the Love-Scent thread for support of his defamatory comments. He led me to look at posts that had gone from

    "Pheromone Research" to more general discussion, which brought me here.
    I'm not planning on any more

    debate,
    which is why I posted the comments DrSmellThis made and my response to them. I don't

    have time to debate either the "soft" science approach, or discuss the "soft" science comments with anonymous

    posters. I try to make time to discuss my "hard" science approach with anyone, anonymous or not, who wants to learn

    more about it.

    James V. Kohl
    author: The Scent of Eros and The Mind's Eyes
    creator: The Scent of Eros

    pheromone-enhanced products
    Well said.
    And I thank you for putting it clearly and politely this time

    around. I think I may finally understand what you ment when saying you quit that style of posing on this

    forum. If I understand correctly, you mearly ment to respect the forum and it's owners\moderators in your own way.

    That I can definitely encourage.

    Just FYI: I did notice there was some information censured on

    that specific thread, the moment I saw this post


    Quote Originally Posted by Irish View Post
    Mtnjim, Bubba mentioned professional background - see post# 48. Not that I think it matters -

    post # 61.
    and realized that replys #48 & #61 are not even present at the thread anymore
    Yet, I

    realized it is the forum-moderator's\owner's right to decide to sometimes censure a thread, and did not (& still

    don't) have any intention of arguing nor disreguarding their choise\right.
    And I am happy you made the same

    decision (as you seem to have made).

    and about "I'm not planning on any more debate" - I understand

    where you come from on this and am actually very glad to see you're taking the same mature stand as Bruce adviced.

    I hope you've decided that by your own free will, and I see the intelligence in that decision.

    Much better

    attitude than before - and honestly much better put. I thank you for that



    2)
    I respect your

    style - as long as you respect other's styles too (Hope I have the right grammer hehe ).
    With these last few

    posts - You seem to have made a great progress in terms of showing your respect for the styles of others (IMO -

    including Bruce... which is nice ). I hope I'm not the only one who sees that; and amongst the ones I hope

    who see that too - is also yourself



    3)
    Quote Originally Posted by jvkohl View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by idesign View Post
    I agree

    with you Terry, and I try to follow the same guidelines of good behavior. I have no differences with anyone here.

    Certainly not with JVK, who is the only manufacturer who posts here, and creator of a product which

    has much respect from me and many others.
    Thanks. However, DrSmellThis and Archtypical Hybrid (HEC)

    are among other manufacturers who have posted here
    , which may help to explain some of our differences.

    Personaly, I see this as (and hope it is) an acknowledgement of the " " " " "authority" " " " of those

    two individual personas mentioned in this quote above [notice that the gross word "authority" is only used

    here for me lacking a better word I do not intent to mock anyone by using it].
    JVK

    clearly made a stand to prevent discrediting their obviously present scientific background on the field.
    This again

    is an improvement which I welcome with open arms. Bruce, I think there's a very positive breakthrough here and we

    should welcome it as long as we have that oportunity (hope you're reading, rather than me just talking to

    the air hehe ).

    ...
    4)
    Quote Originally Posted by jvkohl View Post
    which may help to

    explain some of our differences.
    I think my emphasiz here makes my little additional point clear.



    5)
    For me personally, this is the most important part of my reply, which is why i saved it for

    last.
    ...
    Quote Originally Posted by jvkohl View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by tenaciousBLADE View Post
    With all that said JVK, and with all due

    respect... You are generalizing what you claim to be HIS opinion on you (or agenda... i.e. "wanting to hurt you")...

    on everybody else on the forum. you come from a starting premise that we are ALL here to hurt you. Or you at least

    seem to doubt each one of us before you trust.
    With Bubba's support, DrSmellThis

    sufficiently managed to force me out of this forum for a while, because my responses were limited by the moderators,

    at Bruce's suggestion. With enough support from participants like you (there was some support at the time), I might

    not have dropped out at all. At the point that most of my posts were censured by the moderators, Forum members were

    only getting half the picture. I'm surprised that I've been able to tell the rest of the story in this thread. It

    takes very little for a few vocal participants to gain control of what is allowed to be seen on any Forum. My

    comments are not meant to implicate the majority of Forum members, who come here for information and to compare

    notes.


    Quote Originally Posted by tenaciousBLADE View Post
    Instead of coming up with such a mean rude attitude, you could

    simply come with the starting assumption that most of us DIDN'T come here to hurt you. Doing otherwise, would be

    (and is) disrespectful to us as mear human beings.
    I apologize for being either mean, or

    rude; that was not my intent.

    Quote Originally Posted by tenaciousBLADE View Post
    Just take it easy man.
    I will.

    Thanks.

    James V. Kohl
    author/creator: The Scent of Eros
    Sincerely JVK - I'm satisfied. That is all I

    asked for. I thank you for taking the time & effort to come down to my point; and for simply mentioning that you had

    no intent of being rude. I have the best of hope and I believe that you will probably pay better attention from now

    on, to the fact that the readers on this forums are each his\her own individuals, and that you'll show more

    specified attention when reguarding specific people (I'm not saying your attention was never specifed though -

    don't get me wrong ).

    6)
    I think we can be assured that the freedom given in these forums has been of great

    service on this specific thread. And I personally would like to thank the moderators who have probably dealt with

    some though questions during this long thread.
    I wouldn't like to be in that position lol - yet I think you made a

    great job here (from my humble perspective, that is).

    P.S.
    I would actually like to see Bubba

    being active in the forums; But in no way am I condoning or welcoming further confrontation with such face to face

    street fights (If I may call them so... maybe I may not ).
    I think misunderstandings can be solved with

    mutual effort. So if there ever would be another such misunderstanding - all it takes is for both sides to wanna get

    along with each other and hear each other out rather than try to prove their own side up until the final-round


    With that said, I do think that Bubba was intersting and it even might be possible for him to get

    along qith all of us (including JVK).
    But then again - that's only my inoccent opinion

    Moderators -

    feel free to delete my P.S. message if you see fit. I won't take it personaly

  14. #44
    Phero Enthusiast tenaciousBLADE's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Outside the U.S.
    Posts
    319
    Rep Power
    0

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by idesign View Post
    Thanks for replying JVK, I think I'm beginning to understand your predicament. Science,

    business and politics make strange bedfellows.

    Opinion is the playground of both the knowledgeable and the

    ignorant. Sometimes its hard to tell which is which. An objective view requires a lot of due diligence.

    I follow

    your posts from a place of scientific ignorance, and admit it freely, but I do read extensively to learn and

    understand.

    In your field there is a fine line between biological and social function. You're examining the

    science of pheromonal effect and, sure, there is a huge social aspect. But is seems to me that scientific discovery

    is more than observation of behavior, which is all that social scientists can claim, imprtant as it is. Its good to

    see that you're crossing over.

    I do hope that you'll keep posting here. If I ever reach the point of

    sufficient understanding I might even ask a relevant question!

    Greg
    LOL I love the attitude Greg!


  15. #45
    Banned User jvkohl's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Location
    Northern Georgia
    Posts
    1,127
    Rep Power
    0

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by idesign View Post
    In your

    field there is a fine line between biological and social function. You're examining the science of pheromonal

    effect and, sure, there is a huge social aspect. But is seems to me that scientific discovery is more than

    observation of behavior, which is all that social scientists can claim, imprtant as it is. Its good to see that

    you're crossing over.

    I do hope that you'll keep posting here. If I ever reach the point of sufficient

    understanding I might even ask a relevant question!
    Greg,

    Relevant or not, I will try to

    answer all questions. I'm happy that you understand what "crossing over" entails. I've had more than 10 years of

    intermittent debate with a prominent ethologist who finally made clear to me that his version of scientific

    discovery started with the observation of behavior--and so mine must also start with observation of behavior. Forget

    mammalian models of behavior; forget neuroscience, forget everything that ethologists don't examine (or

    understand)--and examine only the behavior to find its cause. Then, also predict null hypothesis refutation (i.e.,

    that you can prove the behavior is not caused by something else).

    Since the behavior is observed visually,

    most people think that the cause should/must be a visual cue. Thus, we have a generation of researchers in different

    disciplines who follow early ethologists teachings from the 50's and who also fail to recognize the importance of

    unseen olfactory/pheromonal cues, which are the biological basis for mammalian sexual behavior. These same

    researchers fail to make the connection between human pheromones and proof of their effect on hormones and their

    affect on human sexual behavior.

    Your comment cuts to the core of my conflict with those who think that

    observing behavior is sufficient to explain it.

    -------------for example-----------
    Smell this; if you

    like it; it explains why you approach the person who's wearing it, and it has something to do with your life's

    narrative.
    -----------------------------------

    It's nice to see that you understand why such comments

    (above) might goad me to respond in a manner that many might think inappropriate. Neuroscientists would laugh most

    ethologists out of the auditorium. Minimally, I would argue that ethologists might have missed something, and have

    thereby applied a non-sensical approach to any interpretation of data they think is relevant to the study of human

    sexuality.

    Your relevant comment is more important to me than most relevant questions at this

    point.

    Thank you,

    James V. Kohl
    author/creator: The Scent of Eros

  16. #46
    Banned User jvkohl's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Location
    Northern Georgia
    Posts
    1,127
    Rep Power
    0

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by tenaciousBLADE View Post
    Sincerely JVK - I'm satisfied. That is all I asked for. I thank you for taking

    the time & effort to come down to my point; and for simply mentioning that you had no intent of being

    rude.
    You're welcome. I've learned the difference between intending to be rude and the perception

    of being rude. It's the perception that counts, not the intent.

    Quote Originally Posted by tenaciousBLADE View Post
    P.S.
    I

    would actually like to see Bubba being active in the forums; But in no way am I condoning or welcoming

    further confrontation....
    I think misunderstandings can be solved with mutual effort. So if there ever would be

    another such misunderstanding - all it takes is for both sides to wanna get along with each other and hear each

    other out rather than try to prove their own side up until the final-round
    With that said, I do

    think that Bubba was intersting and it even might be possible for him to get along qith all of us (including

    JVK).
    But then again - that's only my inoccent opinion
    I'm less innocent. As I

    mentioned in my response to Greg, I've gone round and round for years with people who want to tell me how science

    should/must be done. If I had ever followed their dictates, I could not have made any scientific progress in the

    study of human pheromones. Bubba reminded me of those who hinder progress, but also challenge the methods of people

    making the progress, only to dissappear into their anonymity.

    James V. Kohl

  17. #47
    Phero Enthusiast tenaciousBLADE's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Outside the U.S.
    Posts
    319
    Rep Power
    0

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by jvkohl View Post

    only to dissappear into their anonymity.
    Yeah, it was that anonymity which I was refering to; saying

    that if he will be more active, maybe we can actually see him as a member of the forum and not as a visitor.
    I

    remain inoccent though

  18. #48
    Banned User jvkohl's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Location
    Northern Georgia
    Posts
    1,127
    Rep Power
    0

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by tenaciousBLADE View Post
    Yeah,

    it was that anonymity which I was refering to; saying that if he will be more active, maybe we can actually see him

    as a member of the forum and not as a visitor.
    As I recall, he said he was a sensory scientist

    working a few fields away from olfaction. I was reminded of how perspectives can be skewed by not being involved in

    olfactory/pheromonal research when I received a reprint today.

    Rapid Neuroendocrine Responses to Auditory

    Courtship Signals
    Donna L. Maney, Christopher T. Goode, Jessica I. Lake, Henry S. Lange, and Sara O'Brien

    Endocrinology. published 6 September 2007, 10.1210/en.2007-0879


    http://endo.endojournals.org/cgi/con...n.2007-0879v1? ct=ct

    The neuroendocrine

    response that is reported to occur with auditory courtship signals is the same that occurs in response to

    olfactory/pheromonal input in mammals, including humans. Yet. because they are studying auditory signals in birds,

    there is no reason to look for the involvement of pheromones, and no explanation for why the same response occurs

    with exposure to auditory signals. I've seen the same type of thing reported by many people who study avian

    species, and who are as yet unaware that even birds produce and respond to pheromones.

    For example: Francesco

    Bonadonna, Eve Miguel, Vladimir Grosbois, Pierre Jouventin, Jean-Marie Bessiere, 2007. Individual odor recognition

    in birds: an endogenous olfactory signature on petrels' feathers? Jour. Chemical Ecology. In Press.

    If a

    researcher is not aware of what's happening outside his/her discipline, or even with other species, they are

    limited to explanations that fit some species (e.g., songbirds), but that are not a consistent fit across species.

    So, their research continues to provide no explanation for the response they observe. It's a best guess scenario.

    that leads to more and more research, but not meaningful results--at least if you expect them to have meaning to

    human sexual behavior. That's one reason PE Meehl was adamant that these researchers simply stop what they are

    doing, which is contrasted by Fenyman's encouragment (noted by Bubba) to continue doing the same thing.

    One

    definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over while expecting a different result. If Bubba had been

    any more specific, I might have been able to comment on problems he might be having with progress to explanations of

    his findings. Instead, he was vague enough to criticize my approach, without providing a means to compare our

    approaches. His criticisms of my attitude might best have been met with criticisms of his model--if he has a model,

    which we may never know. If so, I must consider the entire debate a waste of my time, which is why I should never

    enter debate with anonymous posters. Discussion is fine, debate is pointless unless there is some means to compare

    the insane nature of some research.

    James V. Kohl
    author/creator: The Scent of Eros

  19. #49
    Moderator idesign's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Middle Kingdom
    Posts
    2,400
    Rep Power
    6383

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by jvkohl View Post
    As I

    recall, he said he was a sensory scientist working a few fields away from olfaction. I was reminded of how

    perspectives can be skewed by not being involved in olfactory/pheromonal research when I received a reprint today.



    Yet. because they are studying auditory signals in birds, there is no reason to look for the involvement of

    pheromones, and no explanation for why the same response occurs with exposure to auditory signals. I've seen the

    same type of thing reported by many people who study avian species, and who are as yet unaware that even birds

    produce and respond to pheromones.

    If a researcher is not aware of what's happening outside his/her discipline,

    or even with other species, they are limited to explanations that fit some species (e.g., songbirds), but that are

    not a consistent fit across species. So, their research continues to provide no explanation for the response they

    observe. It's a best guess scenario. that leads to more and more research, but not meaningful results--at least if

    you expect them to have meaning to human sexual behavior. That's one reason PE Meehl was adamant that these

    researchers simply stop what they are doing, which is contrasted by Fenyman's encouragment (noted by Bubba) to

    continue doing the same thing.

    One definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over while expecting a

    different result.

    Discussion is fine, debate is pointless unless there is some means to compare the insane

    nature of some research.

    James V. Kohl
    author/creator: The Scent of Eros
    Reminds me of a line in the

    movie Ghostbusters. Dan Ackroyd to Bill Murray after they were booted from the university research post:

    "You

    don't understand, Venkman, I've worked in the private sector, they expect results."

  20. #50
    Phero Enthusiast tenaciousBLADE's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Outside the U.S.
    Posts
    319
    Rep Power
    0

    Post My water-grinding hypothesis

    lol.
    What a nice referal idesign

    Well, I see your point JVK. But he wasn't trying to

    debate.. although he WAS debating. I think he was just trying to make you see his point whether or not it's

    valid.
    By simply acknowledging he has a point and you understand what it is, you might have been able to

    evade the so called waste of your time and the clearly stormy means used in that debate.

    What I am saying is

    that attitude may sometimes change the result of our actions even if the action remains the same. And that was

    somewhat integrated in Bubba's main point... which is why I still have some respect for what he was trying to

    do.
    I agree that he gave you no means of explaning yourself and took you around the boosh (in a brilliant manner if

    I might add - you gotta respect his smarts even when used like that); but he didn't seem to be aware of the need

    for a debate to be mutual in terms of comparison. I don't think he was reaching for a debate... I think he was

    simply reaching for you to show you respect the forum users and for you to pay more attension than what he thought

    you were paying, to being subjective.

    But then again, this is only an hypothesis... and there's no actual

    reason to keep grinding this issue is there?
    Yeah I'm probably just grinding water here...
    Which

    means we both are wasting time with this haha

    Well... Bottom line, I see where you're coming from, and

    I think in a way things are better now

  21. #51
    Banned User jvkohl's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Location
    Northern Georgia
    Posts
    1,127
    Rep Power
    0

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by tenaciousBLADE View Post
    Well, I see your point JVK. But he wasn't trying to debate.. although he WAS

    debating. I think he was just trying to make you see his point whether or not it's valid.
    By simply

    acknowledging he has a point and you understand what it is, you might have been able to evade the so called

    waste of your time and the clearly stormy means used in that debate.
    He quoted Richard Feynman and

    others jumped on his scientific bandwagon. I could have quoted PE Meehl or historical reviews from Marler to

    contrast his "soft" science quote. Debate is best when we keep it about our own opinions and scientific debate is

    best when we keep it about our own works. That's what fails when other researchers prefer Forum anonymity; they're

    not debating their own opinions or research. They are debating only what they've been taught to believe, and

    supporting their debate by referencing their teachers. Since I am unlikely to teach them anything (no mention that

    they've read my works, or even know what I'm talking about), any of my comments can readily be considered appeals

    to authority, and therein lies the problem. When my responsive appeals to authority (e.g., my own) are chastised,

    it's my ego that's called to question--even by Bruce, with his vague comment about religious and scientific

    dogma.

    So we start with Fenyman's dogma, briefly presented by the anonymous Bubba, and get to my

    ego/attitude on this Forum.

    Quote Originally Posted by tenaciousBLADE View Post
    What I am saying is that attitude may

    sometimes change the result of our actions even if the action remains the same. And that was somewhat integrated in

    Bubba's main point... which is why I still have some respect for what he was trying to do.
    I agree that he gave

    you no means of explaning yourself and took you around the boosh (in a brilliant manner if I might add - you gotta

    respect his smarts even when used like that); but he didn't seem to be aware of the need for a debate to be mutual

    in terms of comparison.
    When another researcher resorts to tactical maneuvers to avoid mutual

    comparative debate, I lose respect for whatever intelligence might be perceived by others. It's the same to me as

    when a researcher begins debate, but ends it at the first sign of trouble by directing me to speak with his/her

    professor (e.g., an appeal to authority). In other words, they might just as well tell you that they don't know

    enough to continue the debate. I've worked with undergraduates who wouldn't dream of doing this, and post-docs who

    routinely resort to it. "Wait a minute, let me get my professor." I've also worked with distiguished post-docs who

    aren't afraid to say: "I don't have a clue" or "I think we've reached an impasse."



    Quote Originally Posted by tenaciousBLADE View Post
    I don't think he was reaching for a debate... I think he was simply

    reaching for you to show you respect the forum users and for you to pay more attension than what he thought you were

    paying, to being subjective.
    How could he know whether or not I was being subjective without reading

    my work? I don't expect most people to read it, but Bubba indicated he was a sensory scientist who was thus

    qualified to comment on my work (without first reading it?) Instead, he appealed to his own authority to comment on

    my forum posts, which are based on my work.

    My respect for forum users is best shown by the fact that I

    continue to post here. Why would I bother if I don't respect them? When I temporarily lost respect for forum users

    because a minority of participants attacked me with the administrator's support, I dropped out--all the while

    wondering whether it might be worth dropping back in from time to time.

    Quote Originally Posted by tenaciousBLADE View Post
    But

    then again, this is only an hypothesis... and there's no actual reason to keep grinding this issue is there?


    Yeah I'm probably just grinding water here...
    Which means we both are wasting time with this

    haha

    Well... Bottom line, I see where you're coming from, and I think in a way things are better

    now
    I don't think we are grinding the issue, and there is a good reason to discuss it, since

    others might also better see where I'm coming from. Next time (there will be a next time, I'm sure), maybe others

    will see what's happening as it unfolds. Thanks for your help in this regard.

    James V. Kohl
    The Scent of

    Eros

  22. #52
    Moderator belgareth's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Location
    Lower Slovobia
    Posts
    7,961
    Rep Power
    8516

    Default

    This is a very old subject and

    has nothing whatsoever to do with pheromones. JVK is going to continue to believe as he chooses to believe and

    others will do the same. I personally got very tired of acting as a referree in a long series of pointless personal

    attacks between two primary antagonists.

    Whatever, they can have their little war, but it is not pheromone

    related and is being moved to open discussion.
    To compel a man to subsidize with his taxes the propagation of ideas which he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical.

    Thomas Jefferson

  23. #53
    Banned User jvkohl's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Location
    Northern Georgia
    Posts
    1,127
    Rep Power
    0

    Default Scientific philosophies at war

    Quote Originally Posted by belgareth View Post
    This is a very old subject and has nothing whatsoever to do with

    pheromones.
    Different philosophical approaches to science are very old, but also have a huge impact

    on what we learn about pheromones; who we learn it from; and the significance of what we learn. For example, and in

    your own words on 2/16/07:
    Quote Originally Posted by belgareth View Post
    Bubba,
    Excellent!! I applaud your integrity as a

    scientist. That was what I was taught and have tried to apply to everything.
    Since you were taught to

    believe, like Bubba, in a "soft" science philosophical approach consistent with his quote from Fenyman, you're

    going to be somewhat biased by a different philosophical approach than mine, which is based on a "hard" science

    philosophical approach (e.g., Meehl and Marler) that may seem critical of Bubba (and perhaps of you). It is not

    critical, it's just different!

    Quote Originally Posted by belgareth View Post
    JVK is going to continue to believe as he

    chooses to believe and others will do the same.
    My point, exactly. Philosophical approaches to

    science are as unlikely to change as any other belief system. But learning more helps with change. What I'm trying

    to learn more about, and help to teach others, is that philosophical approaches should not be the main criteria used

    either to interpret what is being said, or to judge the merits of research.

    Quote Originally Posted by belgareth View Post
    I

    personally got very tired of acting as a referree in a long series of pointless personal attacks between two primary

    antagonists.
    By applauding Bubba's scientific integrity, I think you did more than than referee the

    discussion. What do you think?

    Quote Originally Posted by belgareth View Post
    Whatever, they can have their little war, but it is

    not pheromone related and is being moved to open discussion.
    The philosophy of science (among warring

    factions) is very much pheromone-related. It is important to study design, significance of findings, and trust in

    the interpretation of results--among other aspects of pheromone research (i.e., the section of this Forum that might

    be best suited for my posts).

    James V. Kohl
    The Scent of Eros

  24. #54
    Moderator belgareth's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Location
    Lower Slovobia
    Posts
    7,961
    Rep Power
    8516

    Default

    JVK,

    You know enough of my

    background and scientific education to know better than that bullshit. I am not going to get into a childish

    argument with you. You can either drop it or I can close the thread. Take your pick.
    To compel a man to subsidize with his taxes the propagation of ideas which he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical.

    Thomas Jefferson

  25. #55
    Moderator idesign's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Middle Kingdom
    Posts
    2,400
    Rep Power
    6383

    Default

    Whoa, cease hostilities. It

    seems there are animosities that existed before my time here. But I for one am learning from the relevant parts.



    Greg

  26. #56
    Phero Enthusiast tenaciousBLADE's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Outside the U.S.
    Posts
    319
    Rep Power
    0

    Default

    I think either way this

    topic has reached the end of the disscussion (which is why I stoped posting here... there's nothing more to post...

    we've talked about what was relevant and I see nothing to add here anyway).
    So it all really doesn't matter in

    terms of stopping the thread. It's a finished thread anyway so let's just leave it at that
    Bah... I don't

    like hostilities
    Last edited by tenaciousBLADE; 09-11-2007 at 11:25 PM. Reason: spelling

  27. #57
    Moderator belgareth's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Location
    Lower Slovobia
    Posts
    7,961
    Rep Power
    8516

    Default

    There is a very long history

    and it does not need to be dredged up and chewed over time and again.

    TenaciousBlade and Idesign, I appreciate

    your efforts at calming things down. Sorry I felt it was necessary to step in.
    To compel a man to subsidize with his taxes the propagation of ideas which he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical.

    Thomas Jefferson

  28. #58
    Moderator idesign's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Middle Kingdom
    Posts
    2,400
    Rep Power
    6383

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by belgareth View Post
    There is

    a very long history and it does not need to be dredged up and chewed over time and again.

    TenaciousBlade and

    Idesign, I appreciate your efforts at calming things down. Sorry I felt it was necessary to step in.
    NP

    Bel, sorry I was rude.

    Seems a very contentious, though fascinating subject and after searching I agree that

    its been done to death.

    After doing all that reading here and elsewhere I'm pretty excited about what the

    research might come up with. But I'll think at least twice before posting about it!

    Thanks JVK and TB

    for a lively discussion.

    Greg

  29. #59
    Moderator belgareth's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Location
    Lower Slovobia
    Posts
    7,961
    Rep Power
    8516

    Default

    After you think twice, will you

    please be sure to post it anyway? Anything we can learn is usually worthwhile. It is when it starts to be a series

    of personal attacks that it starts getting old.

    Where were you rude? Maybe I'm slow or just a bit too thick

    skinned (headed?) to notice?
    To compel a man to subsidize with his taxes the propagation of ideas which he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical.

    Thomas Jefferson

  30. #60
    Moderator idesign's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Middle Kingdom
    Posts
    2,400
    Rep Power
    6383

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by belgareth View Post
    After

    you think twice, will you please be sure to post it anyway? Anything we can learn is usually worthwhile. It is when

    it starts to be a series of personal attacks that it starts getting old.

    Where were you rude? Maybe I'm slow or

    just a bit too thick skinned (headed?) to notice?
    Maybe not rude, but "short" perhaps.

    Sure, I'll

    post anything that seems worthwhile. J/K about not posting.

    I'm still not perfectly clear about the source of

    the disagreement. Is it primarily over methods or theory? Ooops, hope nobody reads this.

Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst ... 2 ... LastLast

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. Essence of Alpha Male
    By jvkohl in forum Pheromone Research
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 08-01-2007, 07:09 AM
  2. Hit report...the accidental alpha male
    By Friendly1 in forum Pheromone Discussion
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 02-25-2005, 12:29 PM
  3. Authentic Alpha Male?
    By MOBLEYC57 in forum Open Discussion
    Replies: 14
    Last Post: 02-13-2005, 08:10 PM
  4. Alpha Male, Challenge, and Pheromones
    By xxxPantero in forum Pheromone Discussion
    Replies: 22
    Last Post: 08-25-2002, 04:46 PM
  5. Alpha Male ..may be missing link
    By **DONOTDELETE** in forum Pheromone Discussion
    Replies: 10
    Last Post: 07-26-2002, 11:20 AM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •