Androstadienone Ineffective If VNO Is Blocked

[jvkohl]

Obviously,

that reason for disinterest doesn't apply to the Erox gang, who apparently believe worlds of Exxon-like profits

await them if they focus on the VNO.

If the Natural Attraction site (formerly Erox site) is any

indication, they have indeed given up on the human VNO, since there is no longer any mention of it in their product

advertising.

JVK
creator: Scent of Eros products

[Irish]

Obviously I don’t know if humans have functioning VNO’s (Meredith’s review a few years back was rather pessimistic,

and convincing). And I really don’t care. But here’s why I think it makes sense to investigate it.

Those

money-hungry, VNO-obsessed, commercial villain scientists at Erox did something amazing. With their secret

contraptions, secret methods, often-doubted motives and findings they managed to identify the powerful pheromonal

substances AND and EST! Years before the brain scan validation!!

We didn’t really believe them at the time,

questioned their objectivity because of vested interests (they’re not the only ones with vested interests) – but lo

and behold, those $-grubbing bastards were right!! By looking at VNO activation they correctly identified powerful

sexually-dimorphic pheromones. But it was only after later brain scan experiments that everybody is now on board,

and trumpeting the power of androstadienone. Erox could have (and did) tell us that years ago.

I’m not

defending Erox – we were right to be leery of their claims (and anyone else making $ off their claims). But I am

pointing out that Erox was RIGHT in their claims (some of them so far, anyway), and they based their claims and

research directly on the idea of a functioning VNO. Maybe they are on to something…

So why not keep an open

mind, and see if that organ in our nose is doing actually something after all.

Here’s my (flawed) VNO

experiment – see if folks who’ve had rhinoplasty respond to androstadienone in the now scientifically-accepted

manner. Since a nose job often obliterates the VNO, you should have many androstadienone-immune women to check it

out on, if the VNO is indeed the conduit.

The truth (whatever it may be) will make us free, if not rich…

[jvkohl]

With their secret

contraptions, secret methods, often-doubted motives and findings they managed to identify the powerful pheromonal

substances AND and EST!

Twenty sniffs of 30 milligrams AND to get a measurable effect on hormones and

mood does not suggest that AND is a naturally powerful pheromonal substance.

By looking at VNO

activation they correctly identified powerful sexually-dimorphic pheromones. But it was only after later brain scan

experiments that everybody is now on board, and trumpeting the power of androstadienone.

Who's

trumpeting the power? It's always a good idea to find out who is saying what and why they are saying it, especially

when controversial (more recent) findings abound.

I’m not defending Erox – we were right to

be leery of their claims (and anyone else making $ off their claims).

And anyone attempting to make

$ off their "dated" claims?

But I am pointing out that Erox was RIGHT in their claims (some

of them so far, anyway), and they based their claims and research directly on the idea of a functioning VNO. Maybe

they are on to something…

They got the concept WRONG, at a very basic level, and now appear to have

abandoned their conceptualization.

So why not keep an open mind, and see if that organ in

our nose is doing actually something after all.

When people spend millions developing a concept

(e.g., human pheromones acting through the VNO) and subsequently abandon the concept--how long do you think we

should continue to keep an open mind?

Here’s my (flawed) VNO experiment – see if folks

who’ve had rhinoplasty respond to androstadienone in the now scientifically-accepted manner. Since a nose job often

obliterates the VNO, you should have many androstadienone-immune women to check it out on, if the VNO is indeed the

conduit.

Surgeons were advised by publication of the following article to avoid VNO damage, and

determine whether prior damage had been done.

Garcia-Velasco, J., & Garcia-Casas, S. (1995) Nose surgery and

the vomeronasal organ. Aesth. Plast. Surg., 19, 451-454.

In a litigious society like that in the US, I

expected to hear that a plastic surgeon was sued for VNO damage long before now. I've not learned of a single case,

which suggests that your study participants might be very difficult to find.

The involvement of another

potential pathway is becoming an area of more focus. Time for some of us to move on to studies of the nervus

terminalis (terminal nerve/zeroeth cranial nerve)--something not yet fully considered, and more in line with the

concept of human pheromones eliciting hormonal effects and conditioning behavioral affects.

James V.

Kohl
author -- The Mind's Eyes: Human Pheromones, Neuroscience and Male Sexual Preferences.

[Irish]

My point about Erox is

not that they did or ever will make money (that was a side reference to the criticism they have received about their

methods, and about commercially-biased science in general). That is business, not science.

My point is that

they discovered valuable information about what are now the most convincing human phero-like substances. And they

did it over a decade before brainscan verification, looking only at the VNO and it's activity! Evil, misguided, and

wrong as they may be about certain things, they did beat veryone to the punch on that - and they did it based on the

concept of a functioning VNO.

If Mr. Kohl wants to argue that androstadienone is actually unimportant in the

phero arena, well, I'll leave him in peace to do that.

I suppose we could argue the definition of

"trumpeting", but the literature is swamped with discussion of androstadienone since the brainscan studies came out

a few years ago. Mr. Kohl cites a few of those studies himself over in the Research forum.

About the niggling

point of my tongue-in-cheek reference to a VNO experiment, here's a fact check. The VNO is quite often destroyed in

rhinoplasty - consult a plastic surgeon (I did). And as far as the reference to the paper warning against VNO

destruction (which is true), let's go ahead and finish the quote, since we're citing the experts. The reason

GarcÃa-Velasco and GarcÃa-Casas warned against damaging the VNO during a nose job was that it was happening, and it

should be avoided because:

"...The high incidence of identification of the vomeronasal organ in normal

individuals indicates that the vomeronasal system is a universal feature of the adult human nasal cavity. Evaluation

of the neuronal connections between this organ and the central nervous system shows that the VNO is a functional

chemosensory system with sexually dimorphic specificity and the ability to transduce signals that modulate certain

autonomic parameters. The presence of the VNO and its clinical significance must be considered by plastic surgeons

during nasal operations." Garcia-Velasco, J., & Garcia-Casas, S. (1995) Nose surgery and the vomeronasal organ.

Aesth. Plast. Surg., 19, 451-454.

[jvkohl]

If Mr. Kohl wants

to argue that androstadienone is actually unimportant in the phero arena, well, I'll leave him in peace to do

that.

Thanks. I see you've already posted a request for information on androsterone, and I've

replied. I've never implied that androstadienone is unimportant--as you have indicated. But it's nice to see that

you may be catching on about its "relative" importance.

I suppose we could argue the

definition of "trumpeting", but the literature is swamped with discussion of androstadienone since the brainscan

studies came out a few years ago. Mr. Kohl cites a few of those studies himself over in the Research

forum.

I would refer to the androstadienone/human VNO connection as "trumpeting" cause and effect--a

problem that now continues when androstadienone or the human VNO is mentioned, either alone or in combination. I've

posted research findings on androstadienone that assume no such connection, and usually do not assume cause and

effect.

The reason GarcÃa-Velasco and GarcÃa-Casas warned against damaging the VNO during a

nose job was that it was happening, and it should be avoided because:

What makes you think it was

happening? I think that they wanted us to believe it was happening, and to care that it was happening. Nobody seems

to have cared, as I indicated in another post. Or perhaps everyone who cared settled out of

court.

"... Evaluation of the neuronal connections between this organ and the central

nervous system shows that the VNO is a functional chemosensory system with sexually dimorphic specificity and the

ability to transduce signals that modulate certain autonomic parameters. The presence of the VNO and its clinical

significance must be considered by plastic surgeons during nasal operations." Garcia-Velasco, J., & Garcia-Casas,

S. (1995) Nose surgery and the vomeronasal organ. Aesth. Plast. Surg., 19, 451-454.

This 1995 report

has repeatedly been debunked by newer research.

JVK
The Scent of Eros

[DrSmellThis]

I've found no

recent indication that any researcher who presents at conferences or publishes in peer reviewed journals has any

enthusiasm for the possibility of a functional human VNO. For example, I just reviewed abstracts from the 40th

Annual Meeting of the Japanese Association for the Study of Taste and Smell, which may be the most recent olfactory

conference from which abstracts are available. It's highly unusual for researchers to hide their work from other

researchers, even briefly--as indicated by the ERCO abstract Irish posted. When the group then publishes without

mention of the VNO, it seems more likely to me that they, too, have lost interest/enthusiasm.

JVK
author: The

Scent of Eros: Mysteries of Odor in Human Sexuality

I don't see them "hiding" anything. They posted what

they found so far and told us further research was ongoing; and why. THis seems typical rather than unusual, unless

I'm missing something. It wouldn't have made sense for them to mention the VNO, when their series of VNO studies

was not completed. I bet the authors/researchers would agree.

It also wouldn't make sense for them to rush

ahead to publish the preliminary study when it answers only part of the basic scientific question they are asking.

Waiting is the professional --and usual -- thing to do.

[belgareth]

Please note that I split out

the off topic stuff and put it into a new thread in Open Discussion, where it belongs. The new thread is called

Science Debate.