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  1. #1
    Banned User jvkohl's Avatar
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    Default Androstanone and the VNO

    visit-red-300x50PNG
    Looking back on

    the "Pheromone Discussion" Forum, I found the following information:

    Quote Originally Posted by Archetypical Hybrid (HEC)


    AndrostAnone is known to evoke a stronger response in the human female VNO then does androstenone

    (thus proving my original theory correct).

    See for yourself:


    AndrostAnone is the first bar shown

    (5
    α-androstan-3-one)


    Androstenone (-none)

    is the forth one listed
    (5α-androst-16-en-3-one)



    Androstadienone is the fifth one listed

    (androsta-4,16-en-3-one)




    Since he has offered this "proof" that his

    theory is correct, I hope that Archetypical Hybrid (HEC) will tell us whether the image he posted was part of a

    published paper. I vaguely recall seeing something similar that was shown to me by the chemist for Erox corp., and

    also that--at the time--he was using the chart to show that DHEA--second bar from the right on the

    chart--(reportedly used in Winnifred Cutler's product) did not activate the human VNO, despite the obvious

    comparable activity to Androstanone. If so, comparable activity would indicate that Androstanone is not active.



    Perhaps it was another chart; I could be mistaken. If the chart was published, it would help to clarify

    matters related to reports of human VNO activity that are no longer used in the marketing of "Natural Attraction

    (TM)" (formerly Erox corporation) products (I noticed that the image is linked from the former "erox"

    http://www.erox.com/images/Steroid2.GIF and the erox link now takes us to the Natural Attraction(TM) home

    page).

    This also brings me to an issue I have with debate about unreferenced research from unpublished or

    anonymous sources. When exposed to scientific inquiry, these sources typically promptly dissapear, but may also then

    reappear, again, with anonymity. Are you still "out there" Archetypical Hybrid (HEC)? Let's discuss pheromone

    "science."

    JVK
    .com

  2. #2
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    jv, gegogi has been getting good

    results from Androstanone, vno or no vno, seems to be working for him

    what is your personal opinion on

    Androstanone??

  3. #3
    Banned User jvkohl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bronzie
    jv, gegogi has been

    getting good results from Androstanone, vno or no vno, seems to be working for him

    what is your personal

    opinion on Androstanone??
    I don't have an opinion, yet. Still trying to find any information that

    might support its use. One site states that it is homologous with androstenone (Archetypical Hybrid is familiar with

    the site), but no details on the homology, and no definition of homologous--as used in this chemical context--are

    provided.

    JVK

  4. #4
    Banned User jvkohl's Avatar
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    Thought I had started this post in

    the Pheromone Research Section, which is where it belongs, so as not to annoy those not interested in research. Not

    sure how it ended up in "Pheromone Discussion"

    JVK
    .com

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    Administrator Bruce's Avatar
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    Default

    A moderator probably moved it. The

    research section is theoretically only for posting links to research articles etc., not discussing them.
    To enjoy good health, to bring true happiness to one's family, to bring peace to all, one must first discipline and control one's own mind. If a man can control his mind he can find the way to Enlightenment, and all wisdom and virtue will naturally come to him.

    - Buddha


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  6. #6
    Moderator belgareth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jvkohl
    Thought I had

    started this post in the Pheromone Research Section, which is where it belongs, so as not to annoy those not

    interested in research. Not sure how it ended up in "Pheromone Discussion"

    JVK
    .com
    I moved

    it because the argument betweeen you two clearly does not belong in the research section. The point of this thread

    was to continue to argue and that is not what that forum is for.
    To compel a man to subsidize with his taxes the propagation of ideas which he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical.

    Thomas Jefferson

  7. #7
    Sadhu bjf's Avatar
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    I don't think anything should be

    based on one Erox study. Didn't they have a smear campaign on -anone, (Clive Jennings, U. of Utah), calling it pig

    pheromones. Of course they know what they are doing as well, they did patent A1.
    "An investment in knowledge always pays the best interest."
    --Benjamin Franklin

  8. #8
    Moderator belgareth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bjf
    I don't think

    anything should be based on one Erox study. Didn't they have a smear campaign on -anone, (Clive Jennings, U. of

    Utah), calling it pig pheromones. Of course they know what they are doing as well, they did patent A1.


    No decent scientist is going to close their mind to any possibility, no matter how remote. A single study or even

    the agreement of a number of scientists does not preclude the possibility of another option being the right one.

    Science isn't about personalities or being right, its about exploration and learning. Once you have made up your

    mind on any topic you have precluded learning anything new about that topic.
    To compel a man to subsidize with his taxes the propagation of ideas which he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical.

    Thomas Jefferson

  9. #9
    Phero Pro WorkingMann's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Archetypical Hybrid

    (HEC)
    Archetypical Hybrid: where did they go

    I don't have further time to waste in arguing a moot

    point.. JVK, I suggest you find something more productive to do with your time - write another book maybe.. At least

    then people can decide if they want to read through your ramblings or not.
    When you posted about the new

    phero everybody was angry about it and negative towards it.. I "defended" you and said you just were trying to help

    inform and they shouldn't be so agressive..
    But why haven't you learned not to be the same? Treat others as you

    want them to treat you.. You want people shall keep being negative towards you since you post in this tone?

    And I

    really cant see why you don't wanna use time on a little debate.. If you're a scientist then I would belive that

    even diskussing kindergarden science should be worth time spending arguing/diskussing because you could perhaps

    teach and give valuable info.. And this would perhaps make you more reliable seen from some of the other members in

    here (that doesn't trust you and your postings).. So I can't see why you're not trying to help yourself..

  10. #10
    Administrator Bruce's Avatar
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    Folks,

    Hold on to your hats.

    Something has to be done here in terms of moderation. This is obviously not your basic friendly scientific debate

    designed to arrive at the truth. I agree with WM that HEC could have a nice safe place up on the moral high ground,

    but it just didn't pan out that way. Be that as it may, he has taken a rediculous amount of commercially motivated

    abuse that does not further the goals of science or this forum. I've been lax about doing anything thus far, but

    the other moderators have also gotten a snootfull of these personal attacks, we've discussed it, and they have the

    green light to delete/edit at will. So, boys (you know who you are), if you notice your posts disappearing or

    getting edited, you know what happened.

    Peace and Love, the law of the land,
    B
    To enjoy good health, to bring true happiness to one's family, to bring peace to all, one must first discipline and control one's own mind. If a man can control his mind he can find the way to Enlightenment, and all wisdom and virtue will naturally come to him.

    - Buddha


    Yoga in Eugene
    Fair Trade crafts from Peru

  11. #11
    Phero Pro WorkingMann's Avatar
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    Good job Bruce..

    This is

    one more thing of the great service of L-S

  12. #12
    Kodachrome Forever! Gegogi's Avatar
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    I did a quick read of the Erox

    paper and they twist their information to make Erox Realm products look like the only useful product spawned by the

    hand of man. Apparently they detected human VNO activity only if estratetraenol or androstadienone are sniffed. Thus

    they imply other pheromones--androstenone and androstenol specifically--are not useful outside of hog heaven.



    Nevertheless Erox admits human olfactory organs detect androstenone and androstenol as scents, but make clear

    the VNO is not involved. Isn't this a moot point if human scent receptors carry pheromone information as well? Now

    my knowledge here is shallow, but my understanding is that human noses transmit both scent and pheromone infomation

    to the appropriate parts of the brain.

    Also--and this is purely anecdotal--my considerable use of androstenol

    rich products such as SOE and alpha and beta androstenol indicate there is more at play than mere "smell." When my

    friends catch wind of my 24 inches of SOE spiked with beta androstenol there is a whirlwind of verbage unexplainable

    in such ordinary situations.

    As for Realm (male version), it didn't do jack for me. I assume the estratetraenol

    therein was so diluted as too be totally ineffective. On the other hand, I have found 1-3 drops of chemset

    androstadienone to help relax women, especially those in a bitchy mood due to their monthy punishment.
    "I'm just a dirty hornytoad" -Gegogi

  13. #13
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    Gegogi, itwould be cool if you

    could print some of these arguments off. And then present them to the faculty in the biology and chemistry

    departments at the University of which you work. I think you would find it very interesting.

    I have given

    some of this debate over to people I am familar with at the local Uni and Pharmacy school. And some of it has been

    passed on to a Prof of Biochemistry at an Ivy league school(though not by me).

    I am not going to reveal any

    of the feedback that I have heard up to this point. I think that it would serve me better to sort out the wheat from

    the chaff in this debate. But if any of you have the means, I would suggest that you do talk to different experts in

    your locals, for some rather enlighting opinions, away from the marketing of the pheromone forums, both here and

    elsewhere.

  14. #14
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    Im with bruce on this overall,

    although HEC has been short tempered and rude at times and i think he should be nicer to prospective customers and

    forum members, but i believe he should get some air time and allow himself to be exposed in the way he sees fit and

    not have everyone cut him down each time he posts because they dont agree with him, i have done my share of HEC

    critique, however this forum should be about co operation, not competition

    on the flip side, i hold jvkhols

    words in high respect and i like his product, i personally have followed his posts for years and believe others have

    too, for many on this forum, whether they like to believe it or not, he is a phero GURU, and as i understand it,

    next to Dr.Dodd, one of the few that i can name by name! he has the research credentials and he backs up everything

    he says.

  15. #15
    Phero Pro WorkingMann's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bronzie
    Im with bruce

    on this overall, although HEC has been short tempered and rude at times and i think he should be nicer to

    prospective customers and forum members, but i believe he should get some air time and allow himself to be exposed

    in the way he sees fit and not have everyone cut him down each time he posts because they dont agree with him, i

    have done my share of HEC critique, however this forum should be about co operation, not competition

    on the flip

    side, i hold jvkhols words in high respect and i like his product, i personally have followed his posts for years

    and believe others have too, for many on this forum, whether they like to believe it or not, he is a phero GURU, and

    as i understand it, next to Dr.Dodd, one of the few that i can name by name! he has the research credentials and he

    backs up everything he says.
    Yes I agree but I also believe it's not only HEC.. It's generel some

    people..
    It's fine to argue and debate but it should still be keept in an orderly manner.. We are adults and

    therefor we know we have to come up with good arguments and not just saying I'm know it just because! Or when

    someone else comes with a better argument saying I don't wanna discuss this or just try to yell highest and

    critisize the other part because they dont agree..
    This is not personal attacks but I just wanna say for everybodys

    sake and the point of this forum we don't need all of that because it's waste of time reading it, and waste of

    posts..
    If you wanna argue like that then meet or do it somewere else than this wonderfull forum..
    And again this

    is not negatively meant just wanna point out my oppinion..

  16. #16
    Banned User jvkohl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tounge
    I have given some of

    this debate over to people I am familar with at the local Uni and Pharmacy school. And some of it has been passed on

    to a Prof of Biochemistry at an Ivy league school(though not by me).
    My November, 2006 continuing

    education presentation at the annual meeting of the Society for the Scientific Study of Sexuality was videotaped,

    and I may make it available to other researchers. I also plan to post the powerpoint presentation that I used for

    the presentation on my domains.

    Research results from a current study I helped to design will be available

    later in the year, and I expect "some of this debate" to end soon--or, minimally, become more focussed as these

    additional resources become more widely known.

    During the same time, my Journal of Psychology and Human

    Sexuality review article will be published with concurrent publication as a book chapter. I hope to get pheromone

    "science" back on the right track soon--and am relatively certain that the people you know will agree that this

    needs to happen.

    JVK


  17. #17
    Banned User jvkohl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gegogi
    I did a quick read of

    the Erox paper and they twist their information... Apparently they detected human VNO activity only if

    estratetraenol or androstadienone are sniffed.
    They also patented the delivery "sniffing" system,

    which means that no one could replicate their findings, and published in a trade journal--not in a "scientific"

    journal. On the other hand, researchers have since shown behavioral affects of androstadienone without human VNO

    criteria.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gegogi
    ... Erox admits human olfactory organs detect androstenone and androstenol as

    scents, but make clear the VNO is not involved.
    Now we're getting somewhere. Human olfactory organs

    detect putative human pheromones without VNO involvement; behavioral affects of a androstadienone without VNO

    involvement...

    Quote Originally Posted by Gegogi
    Isn't this a moot point if human scent receptors carry pheromone

    information as well? Now my knowledge here is shallow, but my understanding is that human noses transmit both scent

    and pheromone infomation to the appropriate parts of the brain.
    Your understanding is similar to

    mine, and does appear to make the human VNO a moot point. The luteinizing hormone (LH) response to androstenol also

    makes the human VNO issue a moot point, whether or not Erox says androstenol is a "pig" pheromone. The LH response

    to pheromones is probably the best known mammalian response (and women are mammals who respond to androstenol with

    an LH and mood response).

    Quote Originally Posted by Gegogi
    Also--and this is purely anecdotal--my considerable use of

    androstenol rich products such as SOE and alpha and beta androstenol indicate there is more at play than mere

    "smell."
    Many people rely on such anecdotes, try the products, and agree that there is more at play

    than "smell." The LH response to pheromones can be elicited by other sensory (think, visual) input--but only after

    it is "conditioned" to occur in response to pheromones.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gegogi
    ... I have found 1-3 drops of chemset

    androstadienone to help relax women, especially those in a bitchy mood due to their monthy

    punishment.
    Your anecdotal findings are consistent with research on the behavioral affects of

    androstadienone. Perhaps others can now better understand why my anecdotal findings were a large part of SoE product

    design. Once you observe similar "affects" repeatedly, either you find additional support (e.g., androsterone meets

    the criteria for a species specific pheromone), or you look elsewhere for explanations.

    Gegogi explains a

    lot, and --as usual--in terms that most people can understand.

    JVK

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