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  1. #1
    Banned User jvkohl's Avatar
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    Default Androsterone and Study Design

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    In another thread I mentioned difficulty in study design. This might give you an idea of what was considered before secondary testing with RONE was initiated, and how the dosage was established. This is pretty technical stuff, but may be of interest to some of the scientifically curious among you. It\'s from a university chemist who was a consultant for a 1999 study.

    GOOD NEWS! I hope you can use these arguments below with the Human
    Subjects Committee. I should let you know that I will not be able to do
    any more work on this next week. I am 30-40 hours behind on a reassigned
    project for which I will be making a marathon effort to compensate next
    week. However, I think the information below will be extremely useful to
    you in justifying your project to the Committee. Check with James Kohl, but
    I think an aliquot containing 1 mg of androsterone will be a good maximum
    amount of the steroid. How much to consider for a low dose, I\'m not sure:
    perhaps 0.1 to 0.5 mg.

    I am confident about the following details about androsterone:

    Androsterone is a by-product (intermediate) of the metabolism of
    testosterone (formed in both men and women). For years it has been known
    to be formed in the prostate, breast, ovary, adrenal gland, and the liver.
    It is a by-product on its way to being excreted in urine as a
    water-soluble conjugate with glucose or sulfate. Before conjugation, the
    androsterone, a ketone form, is converted to alcohol forms. The glucose
    or sulfate conjugates of these alcohol forms have no known biological
    activity. I cannot find any indication of any natural biological activity
    of this steroid; again, indications are that it is a \"degradation\" product
    that is on its way to excretion. While the liver has been known as the
    main site for conjugation of steroid alcohol products to glucose, a recent
    report indicates there is an enzyme in human prostate, breast, AND SKIN
    which can carry out the conjugation to glucose.

    Analysis and further considerations:

    1. This background information and other work suggests that
    any androsterone absorbed into circulation will be converted to the
    alcohol forms and conjugated with glucose, thereby targeting it for
    excretion. From the areas of contact, if it is absorbed through tissues,
    the androsterone might be expected also to be carried into the liver by
    the lipoproteins of the blood system.

    2. Because it is an organ with such a large volume, the skin
    is an important site of steroid hormone biosynthesis. I have been unable
    to find any information about the reverse conversion of androsterone into
    a androstendione, species which might end up as estrone or possibly be
    reconverted into testosterone. Therefore absorption through the skin does
    not seem likely to generate active steroid hormones in the body. Since
    there are enzymes in the skin that can convert the androsterone to alcohol
    forms and on to conjugated forms with glucose, it is likely that the fate
    of the androsterone, if applied to the skin, is excretion.

    3. All of these data suggest that the inhalation of small
    amounts of androsterone, or absorption into the skin, both from a facial
    mask are unlikely to lead to metabolically significant amounts of products
    in the steroid synthetic pathways or to have any other fate than
    excretion.

    4. A simple calculation shows that if 1 mg (= 0.001 g) of
    androsterone (MW = 290.4 g) were to be injected into the blood of a person
    with 4 L of serum and to be distributed evenly, the serum concentration
    would be about 0.7 5M. The sulfate conjugate is found in serum at about 1
    to 3 5M (this calculation may come out poorly through Pine Mail): 0.001 g
    x 1 mol/290.4 g x 1/4 L = 6.9 x 10-7 M or 0.69 5M (1 5M = 10-6 M). It is
    highly unlikely that a significant portion of a 1 mg portion of this
    steroid on a bacterial or dust mask could be absorbed through the skin,
    sinus, or lung airways. It is a high melting solid that sublimes with
    difficulty except under high vacuum. Any serum levels of the steroid
    resulting from inhalation or minor contact with the skin would be expected
    to result in very small amounts added to serum.
    ---------------------

    All of the above simply attests to the likelihood that no harm would be done via testing with 1mg/ml androsterone. There\'s much more to the story, but I am trying to build a synopsis for a general audience that may help in choices of products containing NONE; OL; RONE or combinations of these compounds. Since I know the most about RONE, and have not directly tested any other compounds, it became my choice for the basis of Scent of Eros. OL was included because it has been shown to affect hormones. The fragrance choice (given samples from the perfumer) was as much luck as anything for me, but it turned out to be an excellent choice due to the involvement of Bruce and the perfumer.

  2. #2
    **DONOTDELETE**
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    Default Re: Androsterone and Study Design

    Well, you can get 100 grams (100,000 mg!) of androsterone for $18 at Steraloids.com. :-).
    http://www.steraloids.com/products/A/A2420.html

  3. #3
    **DONOTDELETE**
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    Default Re: Androsterone and Study Design

    James, you\'re being run through the ringer here, but the info youve provided from a researchers point of view has been valuable. Now on to business. You keep mentioning 1mg/ml of RONE and I understand RONE to be your focus in SOE. However the ratio is .1mg/ml of RONE and it seems as though NOL was just added for whatever good it will do. Is my perception in error? Thanks in advance.

  4. #4
    Carpal Tunnel Whitehall's Avatar
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    Default Re: Androsterone and Study Design

    A minor correction - I read the Steraloids catalog entry as $18 per gram only if you order 100 grams at one time. For a single order of one (1.0) gram, their price is $28.

    Still, that\'s cheap!

  5. #5
    Phero Enthusiast
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    Default Re: Androsterone and Study Design

    \"Well, you can get 100 grams (100,000 mg!) of androsterone for $18 at Steraloids.com. :-). \"


    I think you can not order to this company for home consumption or personal use. They only entertain people with PHD AND MD degrees.

    travis

  6. #6
    Banned User jvkohl's Avatar
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    Default Re: Androsterone and Study Design

    To my knowledge, you can only get RONE if you have an appropriate mailing address (e.g., either for a research group or university). Same with the other weak androgens. RONE, however, is no longer regulated by the DEA, though some manufacturers don\'t know that yet.

    My mention of 1mg/ml RONE is because that\'s what I have typically used; 2mg/ml is too much--and aversive to many people. But you also should consider that in my experiments and presentations, I use only the 1mg RONE in mineral oil or propylene glycol--no fragrance. The OL in SOE is included because it already has been shown to affect LH levels (a key issue in \"chemistry\"). Ultimately, however, the final mix should always be left to the person who is making it (in our case, the perfumer). Just as those of you who are experimenting with different mixes to find one you like best, the perfumer experiments to find the best combination--but hopefully gets a mix that not only agrees with his/her taste, but is good-to-great for the largest number of people. If that means cutting the RONE and using more OL, it still makes more sense that putting out a product that doesn\'t have the conscious appeal--just because you think it has sufficient unconscious appeal.

    There is a happy medium, and I think that the medium is found in SOE. But, I\'ve now heard from two women (in the hospital where I work) that they detect the strong presence of NONE. Both women have extremely good olfactory prowess, and comparatively speaking seem to be very sensitive to NONE. Oddly, both also have previously worked at a very large pig farm. One even explained what I thought could be the reason why she perceived and reacted badly to NONE. She had worked at the farm where piglets were castrated; had extended exposure to NONE; and made a very negative association with it.

    Can\'t please everyone, nor should anyone try.
    I also feel the need to say that I thought long and hard before entering the commercial product arena. Most of you probably know that I could have put a product on the market anytime after the 1995 release of the book, and generated significant sales. But, I didn\'t want anything linked to me that wasn\'t scientifically sound and biologically active.

    RONE is scientifically sound, and from all experience to date, will be shown to be biologically active--as soon as someone does a study measuring LH levels. Meanwhile, I mostly enjoy the banter in this forum, though it has become quite time-consuming.

    I\'ll keep up for as long as I can.

  7. #7
    **DONOTDELETE**
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    Default Re: Androsterone and Study Design

    Well as they say any publicity is good publicity and for the scent of eros its getting a good run through and im sure that will help sales, it seems we just cant get enough of this discussion forum and i consider it a very important discussion point for pheromones in general and it seems to bring the sales to bruce james others etc.

    We just keep plugging along and promoting this and i dont know bruce and others can answer this but i have noticed on the net in general a taking off of phero site numbers and publicity in general. So therefore sales must be increasing or am iwrong on that one. This forum what about 6 months ago was getting if i remember bruce 1000 hits per day, that must have gone up by now seeing as though weve gone from 200 odd members to nearly 700 now thats probably up to 500000 hits a year ??????

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