Just say no... human VNO

[jvkohl]

I assume

these studies in that post were done on animals so i'm sceptical of their worth proving VNO functionality in

humans

I vaguely recall the phrasing from a patent that I think was issued to David Berliner's group

(Erox/Pherin) several years ago. If so, no non-disclosure-agreement (NDA) would be likely to apply. In any case, the

information is quite dated, and also relies on data from non-human animal studies that were done before anyone knew

that even in non-human animals the VNO is not always required for a pheromone

response.

JVK

[Archetypical Hybrid (HEC)]

If so,

no non-disclosure-agreement (NDA) would be likely to apply

So I'm lying then, right? - I think not.

Your intuition is wrong, for the NDA does exist and does apply as a secondary protection protocol to the patent

which also exists.

[bronzie]

Perhaps you

aren't familiar with them but I've been under a number of NDAs myself and understand his position completely.

Unless you have something to add besides innuendo please get off the subject. Perhaps the data will come out later,

it usually does then the people with all the sarcasm begin to look pretty silly, to say the

least.

I’m familiar with confidentiality agreement's, I have drafted dozens of them in the past, and

in the process of producing such a contract at the moment for a client. I know exactly what they involve.

HEC

makes very clear assertions in support of the new product that he/she is promoting, however he/she cannot support

with evidence, furthermore he attests this is due to a Confidentiality agreement that apparently may or may not

expire in two years from now, that is fair enough.

however...

To someone with a legal background,

this is called HEARSAY. Basically there is no proof for his assertions, leaving the consumer (in this case me) with

allot of doubt to the credibility of the product he is marketing. This is not a personal attack on HEC, nor is it

innuendo, but a very simple observation.

Anyway, im not a scientist, and have not researched the VNO and I

rely on the research of people like Jvkhol who provide the forum with citations and evidence.

Anyhow im going

to jump off this bandwagon and debate altogether because I believe it’s a waste of my time, but I can clearly say

this from a legal perspective and a common sense perspective, a consumer should be wary of a products supposed

effectiveness when the effect is largely attributed from some unknown stimuli or based on evidence that only the

manufacturer has access too and will not provide or disclose the evidence to support their claim.

[Archetypical Hybrid (HEC)]

doubt

to the credibility of the product he is marketing

For the fifth and final time, I am not marketing

anything nor am I in the position to.. My personal comments are just that - relative to my personal real-world

observations.

It also seems, from my observations, that you tend to doubt the merit of all new products and

attempt to degrade them.. Most often you are proved incorrect, so why continue the same pattern over and over and

over? - This is not a personal attack on Bronzie, nor is it innuendo, but a very simple question.

[jvkohl]

So

I'm lying then, right? - I think not. Your intuition is wrong, for the NDA does exist and does apply as a secondary

protection protocol to the patent which also exists.

I didn't mean to imply that you're lying about

the NDA, and don't think I did so. On the other hand, rather than merely spew some jargon, you had an opportunity

to cite the patent for scientific support of your position. When the scientific support is readily available, why

not cite it? There may only be a few people interested in looking at the full text of the patent, but it could lead

to more discussion.

I have also worked with NDA's, which can be broadly applied, but not--to my

knowledge--as "secondary protection" against the release of (or citation to) public information (e.g., the patent).

And, though there may be other reasons for the NDA, in my case, the NDA's, like patents, have been used to protect

marketing interests.

In any case, I'm not relying on intuition; unsupported opinions; unpublished research;

or the presence/absence of a human VNO.

JVK

[Gegogi]

Mr. H writes, "...that you

tend to doubt the merit of all new products..."

Bronize is exercising a prudent approach as many

products--electronics, health related, optics, whatever--are not what the makers claim them to be. In the case of

pheromone products, the track record of success isn't exactly overwhelming. In some instances it is a clear case of

deceptive marketing. For others, the product simply doesn't work for everybody. The designer may not be aware of

the mixed results until after it goes to market. They simply lacked the resources to test the product across a board

enough sample to know what the hell it does.

[tounge]

Bronize is exercising

a prudent approach as many products--electronics, health related, optics, whatever--are not what the makers claim

them to be. In the case of pheromone products, the track record of success isn't exactly overwhelming. In some

instances it is a clear case of deceptive marketing. For others, the product simply doesn't work for everybody. The

designer may not be aware of the mixed results until after it goes to market. They simply lacked the resources to

test the product across a board enough sample to know what the hell it does.

Well

said and very fair. Many people here remember BDC concepts and the BS they pitched in promoting a product, and of

course since then, seemingly departed the sight. Then another person who was banned from here who had a product

(which I happen to like) from a competeing pheromone company. And this company seems to have an instant pheromone

for every situation.

It is a buyer beware situation. I have over the last few years come to know people who

have a great deal of credability with regards to pheromone science, and other aspects of biochemistry. And the

bottom line is that, the marketing of Pheromones is often times a seedy business.

[tounge]

For the fifth and final time, I am not marketing anything nor am I in the position to.. My personal comments

are just that - relative to my personal real-world observations.

It also seems, from my observations, that

you tend to doubt the merit of all new products and attempt to degrade them.. Most often you are proved incorrect,

so why continue the same pattern over and over and over?

Who has proven him

incorrect? And what products besides A314 has he doubted the merits of?

[Mungojerry]

hhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

[tenaciousBLADE]

Bronzie, I'm not in

favor nor against the product.
But isn't it to early to speculate if it works or not?
I say, you doubt it? then

don't try it.
Some people have already purchesed it, and if we wait a month or two we'll probably get some

reports
I myself don't doubt the product, yet I'm not gonna base my opinion on just HEC's posts... nor do

I think that's what he even wants. Let us base our opinions on the following reports, shall we?
I suggest we

simply wait some time and see what happens

[jvkohl]

To

reiterate:

In any case, I'm not relying on intuition; unsupported opinions; unpublished

research; or the presence/absence of a human VNO.

From:
Individual and gender fingerprints

in human body odour. Dustin J. Penn, Elisabeth Oberzaucher, Karl Grammer, et al. (2006) J. R. Soc.

Interface

"We found that although the axillary sweat of men and women had remarkably similar GC–MS profiles,

we could statistically discriminate the sexes, and we identified the chemical structures of 12 of these marker

compounds characteristic of gender (table 3)."

Simply put, they found 12 putative human pheromones with

sufficient variability in the sweat of men and women to determine whether the sweat was more likely to be from a man

or from a woman. There is no mention of the human VNO, and thus it appears to be of no concern to these researchers,

who are examining sex differences in human body odor.

JVK

[belgareth]

Bronzie,

I'm not in favor nor against the product.
But isn't it to early to speculate if it works or not?
I say, you

doubt it? then don't try it.
Some people have already purchesed it, and if we wait a month or two we'll probably

get some reports
I myself don't doubt the product, yet I'm not gonna base my opinion on just HEC's

posts... nor do I think that's what he even wants. Let us base our opinions on the following reports, shall we?


I suggest we simply wait some time and see what happens

Sounds both fair and reasonable to

me.

[Archetypical Hybrid (HEC)]

Sounds

both fair and reasonable to me.

I second that notion.