Just say no... human VNO

[jvkohl]

How

DO pheromones work, if not through the VNO?

Any questions that are not answered, or issues

that are not clarified in my last review--full text available

at:

http://www.nel.edu/22_5/NEL220501R01_.pdf

should be answered/clarified in my next

review, which will be available in the forthcoming issue

at:

http://www.haworthpress.com/store/To...20Issue%3A%204

I spend more time on research and writing reviews than

commenting to the Forum in hopes that peer-reviewed publication might be considered a better source of

information.

Wish I had more time to do both.

JVK

[jvkohl]

i think both

approaches could be interpreted as marketing ploys, those that believe it to exist and include it in thier marketing

and those that advocate that it doesnt and include it in thier marketing

I'm not advocating that the

human VNO doesn't exist; I've repeatedly cited research (biological fact) that clearly states it doesn't exist.



I looked up the definition of "ploy" to be sure I could compare strategies designed to disorient, to

facts--like biological facts, for example. I don't see how biological facts could be interpreted as a marketing

"ploy". Perhaps you will elaborate.

JVK

[bronzie]

I'm not

advocating that the human VNO doesn't exist; I've repeatedly cited research (biological fact) that clearly states

it doesn't exist.

Therefore, your Advocating it doesn't exist. By definition, it means your

supporting others research.

I looked up the definition of "ploy" to be sure I could

compare strategies designed to disorient, to facts--like biological facts, for example. I don't see how biological

facts could be interpreted as a marketing "ploy". Perhaps you will elaborate.

Within the context of

marketing a product, the word ploy can be used even when the ploy is based on hard scientific facts.

Things

do not sell themselves as some people would like us to believe. We do it through ploys, tactics,

stratagies.

Think of Asprin, great product, hard science behind it, the PLOY a few years ago was that it was

good for you for circulation and your heart, well that was the PLOY back then by manufacturers, drug stores, etc, we

now know this is not the case.


JV, im with you on this one, personally I don't give a rats a** if it

does exist or doesnt, and since I have used pheromones with great success on women who have had major nose

reconstruction I believe the VNO probably plays little or no part in the equation.

In the end I just want to

get laid.

[bronzie]

and just to clear something up,

I never said your ploy was to market SOE by your "advocating" or citing researches that the VNO does not exist,

however, others might interpret that this may be a market strategy of yours, because you stand out from the crowd

(other pheromone manufacturers) who constantly include the VNO as the prime pheromone receptor in humans, in thier

marketing.

that concept guy is hopping on one foot with claims that the VNO exists and is functioning in

humans, im waiting to hear at what he has to say...

anyway, to be honest, im more concerned about nasal hair

then about the VNO

[tenaciousBLADE]

Any questions that are not answered, or issues that are not

clarified in my last review--full text available

at:

http://www.nel.edu/22_5/NEL220501R01_.pdf

should be

answered/clarified in my next review, which will be available in the forthcoming issue

at:

http://www.haworthpress.com/store/Toc_views.asp?sid=BHPDKF23AUXU8G4E0XCM5PH

7V06J8NPF&TOCName=J056v18n04_TOC&desc=Volume%3A%20 18%20Issue%3A%204

I spend more time on research and

writing reviews than commenting to the Forum in hopes that peer-reviewed publication might be considered a better

source of information.

Wish I had more time to do

both.

JVK

OK, Ive read a part of that

review. I intent on reading the rest in the future, but it'll take some time, and it's not my top priority (even

in my free time).

I got to admit that it wasn't easy reading this . I have no scientific background;

besides being a leading student in my class, which was named "the science class" of my school.

Indeed, as a

student in that class I was exposed to a relatively-high level of science in an early age (for the most, I got to

visit & get lectured frequently at one of the best science institutions in my country - which is very well respected

in that arena).
BUT - it was only highschool after all


So about half of the words in that review were

quite hard to understand.
Still, I did get a lot of info from that review (what I read of it). And from what I've

seen, I'm not convienced that the VNO is "not existant" per se.
Maybe non-functional... but even that is not

prooven, or doesn't seem to be
Yet, I am convienced that the chance of it being a

non-functional organ is greater than the chance of it being a functional one.

If I may (if not, then feel free to

request an edit here... either from me or a moderator - I'll understand & won't argue ), I want to quote a part

of that review, stated under the VNO title.

However, recent data have shown that the VNO also exists in

adult humans [28]. Monti-Bloch and Grosser [29] found the adult human VNO responds to picogram amounts of human skin

pheromones with depolarization. These findings suggest, that the human VNO may function as a pheromone

detector as it does in other mammals. However, so far there is

no evidence that the human VNO is connected to a functional accessory olfactory

system.

That part just quoted, from the review you refered me to none-the-less, led me to

believe that the VNO is indeed existant. I agree, the last phrase in that quote, shows that it probably is

non-functional, as do some of the following parts in the review; but to say it is non-existant? [Maybe you simply

ment non-functional? or... non-exsistant in the complexity found in other mammals? ]

But although it's

greatly unlikely to happen... Who's to say that evidence of the VNO being connected to a fanctional accessory

olfactory system, are not to be discovered in the future?

In conclusion:
I personaly, with the little

bit of care (or rather curiosity) I have for the subject, conclude the VNOs' non-functionality in humans - an

axiom.

JVK, I appreciate the reference, and hereby thank you very much for it
It fed my curiosity

well. I hope others (in the lack of the scientific background to make it a more readable review) feel the

same way


P.S.
At least you bring some background to your opinions

[jvkohl]

Think of Asprin,

great product, hard science behind it, the PLOY a few years ago was that it was good for you for circulation and

your heart, well that was the PLOY back then by manufacturers, drug stores, etc, we now know this is not the

case.

Thanks for elaborating and clarifying in your last two posts. The statement above caught my

eye because I bought into what you say was a PLOY. I'm still taking one "baby" aspirin every day, since I never

read any follow-up to what was presented as medical wisdom--and, as some people know, I work in the medical

profession. What did you read that led you to believe the effect of aspirin on circulation was a ploy? I've read

that even if you merely think you are having symptoms of a heart attack or stroke, you should take an aspirin--just

in case.

JVK

[jvkohl]

OK, Ive read

a part of that review...
...[AND] I am convienced that the chance of it being a non-functional organ is greater

than the chance of it being a functional one.

Thanks for taking a look and letting others know.

Pertinent studies since the 2001 paper was submitted further attest to the lack of any functional human VNO--and, so

far as I know, there have been no studies since 2001 that say either that humans have one, or that it is functional.

I've cited some of the studies in my forthcoming review that say we don't have one.

What I would expect to

see from marketers who say their products work via the human VNO, is at least one recent reference to research that

has been replicated--anything that even vaguely suggests that human pheromones work via the human VNO.

So

far as I know, everything published on the human VNO tracks back to what now appear to be a couple of vestigial

"pits." I'm not saying that these "pits" don't exist, since they've been observed by many researchers. What I'm

saying is that "vestigial pits" do not support the presence of a human VNO, and there is even less support for a

"functional" human VNO.

What marketers are saying is that these vestigial pits are proof that humans have a

functional VNO that somehow processes their products' ingredients and somehow elicit behavioral change.



Here's what will happen next to marketers whose claims are based on activation of a functional human VNO.

They will find out (from me and others) that there is no functional VNO, and then change their claims merely by

eliminating mention of the VNO. The "Natural Attraction" product line, which is a spin off of the "Realm" product

line has already done this. And, regardless of what research on human pheromones really shows, marketers will pick

and choose whatever they wish to support their ridiculous claims.

People who come to the Pheromone Forum

should expect more than just marketing claims.

Who's to say that evidence of the VNO

being connected to a fanctional accessory olfactory system, are not to be discovered in the future?

So far as I know, no one is researching anything related to the human VNO, so future

discoveries are highly unlikely.

P.S.
At least you bring some background

to your opinions

Thanks for noticing.

JVK

[bronzie]

We are obviously lost in

translation...

Im using the word ploy within the context of marketing, the word ploy originates from the word

employ, and it has different meanings depending in what context it's used in.

Anyway, Aspirin is great, I

use it for headaches all the time and a few of my older friends use it as a preventative drug for the problems you

mentioned (stroke, heart attack) however, I did read that it may have negative effects on the arteries, by weakening

them, it also has adverse effects on the stomach walls over prolonged use over many years which could cause ulcers

and Chiropractors say to avoid its use altogether over a prolonged period of time (but who listens to chiropractors

anyway) because it weakens bones and joints, apparently it has a dissolving type effect on calcium.

Have you

heard of this? Pycnogenol, apparently it has similar therapeutic qualities to Aspirin without some of the side

effects. In Europe, Doctors prescribe this to patients with heart problems, although it’s available over the counter

as a non prescription drug. It’s supposed to strengthen artery

walls.http://www.pycnogenol.com

[jvkohl]

We are obviously

lost in translation...

No problem at this point, thanks.

Have you heard of

this? Pycnogenol, apparently it has similar therapeutic qualities to Aspirin without some of the side effects. In

Europe, Doctors prescribe this to patients with heart problems, although it’s available over the counter as a non

prescription drug. It’s supposed to strengthen artery

walls.http://www.pycnogenol.com

When I get more free time,

I'll look into this further. I particularly like the fact that they have the links to research citations, and that

these are formatted well.

JVK

[tenaciousBLADE]

I don't usually use (or

need, for that matter) any medication. But there's a product I prefer over Aspirin, and it's called Advil.
Then

again, it doesn't seem to me that using Aspirin (or alikes) in a regular basis is such a great idea.
I say: Just

let your body figure it's own way (take into acount that I say this when I'm just 22yrs young ).
It reamins of

course your choice to make


Anyhow JVK... About the usual marketers out there...
I agree that a marketer who

shows me reaserch is defenetly preferable. With that said, I don't mind (I even prefer it) when a marketer who had

a fictional explanation of his products work, realizes his mistake and changes the explanation to the more

newly-recognized one. It does however, make him loose some credability; specially if he's done this kind of

thing more than once.
Still, what really matters is that it works... and not so much how. It helps to know

how, but it's not `a must`

[Gegogi]

My American Heritage Dictionary

states that ploy means:

ploy * An action calculated to frustrate an opponent or gain an advantage

indirectly or deviously; a maneuver: [Perhaps from employ, employment (obsolete).].

I'm guessing the

"obsolete" meaning derirved from employment errorded long ago in American usage. Perhaps it's retained it original

meaning in British usage?

As for marketers showing research, I believe for the masses it only serves to confuse.

Facts and features must be simplified and presented in a few words and phrases, e.g., "get laid and be the man." For

a few geeks they can always bury a white paper in their site or provide links to scholarly research that supports

their product.

[bronzie]

I use Australian English,

although my guess is it’s not much different from British English or American English, with regards to the word

ploy, the American meaning of this word changes depending in what context it’s used, as I have discovered searching

around the net.

Interesting word...

[Mungojerry]

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

[Archetypical Hybrid (HEC)]

JVK is merely

citing the work of scientists in the field which believe the VNO is non-functional.

As far as

"Archetypical Hybrid, why is so certain the VNO is functional! " - this is due to

privileged literature in my possession.

Re JVK's comment:

Your attempt to compare -- "extensive" and "more current" "literature" -- to published/cited

research findings is what's wrong. It's precisely the problem with the entire human VNO approach, which can be

summed up as "We have information that you don't have and we're not going to give it to you, so you can't

possibly replicate our findings, but we're right and you're

wrong."

Unfortunately that is precisely how it stands at the moment, as well as

is this how it is in the corporate world. I cannot violate an iron-clad contract (the NDA) and thus cannot reveal

the "privileged information" which supports my claims.

The NDA will not be in effect forever,

and when it is no longer applicable I promise to disclose information to which I am permitted.



Mungojerry, that abstract was a component in the project - I did not realize this initially.

The article referenced
"mammalian bipeds," specifically relating to primates and humanoids.

[bronzie]

As far as "Archetypical Hybrid, why is so certain the VNO is functional! " - this is due to

privileged literature in my possession.

People who have seen Aliens and UFO's

believe they have 'privileged information' that they cannot share with others.

Your marketing is going

well...

[belgareth]

People who have

seen Aliens and UFO's believe they have 'privileged information' that they cannot share with others.

Your

marketing is going well...

Perhaps you aren't familiar with them but I've been under a number of

NDAs myself and understand his position completely. Unless you have something to add besides innuendo please get off

the subject. Perhaps the data will come out later, it usually does then the people with all the sarcasm begin to

look pretty silly, to say the least.

[Mungojerry]

444444444444444444444444

[Archetypical Hybrid (HEC)]

Perhaps

you aren't familiar with them but I've been under a number of NDAs myself and understand his position completely.

Unless you have something to add besides innuendo please get off the subject. Perhaps the data will come out later,

it usually does then the people with all the sarcasm begin to look pretty silly, to say the least.

Thank

you very much for the support - I am pleased that at least someone understands my disposition.

Also,

neanderthal men tend to look rather silly without even having to speak.. However I especially agree, and dislike

when people speak of nonsensical bullshit, just to have something to say.

Lastly, you will all have access to

the information when I am able to produce it - The NDA expires in two years from six-weeks ago, relative to much of

the information requested herein. However it may become null-and-void before this time.

"If there are no

stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask

questions?"
-Scott Adams

That's a damn good point! I'll have to remember this one...

Firstly, I have to take your word and you could be anybody!

Bruce will soon verify my

status, I expect. However, don't just "take someone's word," but rather think for yourself and make an educated

decision.

I'm going into a grey area here by answering your inquiry, but your intelligent questions deserve

some entertainment.

1a) In that last study were links between the VNO and the hypothalamus found in

specifically human subjects [not just primates or "humanoid" creatures!].

There were never any studies

performed directly which conclusively confirmed the neural route by which the VNO is connected to the brain in

humans, however this neural network does certainly exist, based upon logical deduction from results which have been

demonstrated. The known literature which is public domain, of or relating to neural pathways from VNO sensory axons

to the hypothalamus, or hippocampus refers merely to "humanoids," and not homo sapiens directly.

2) How

do you respond to the study involving the VNO blockage? Are, as I hypothesised, different pheromones involved, or do

you have some other explanation.

This may be a sensitive question, as this was a direct component in the

project, relating directly to the new pheromones. Please allow me to confirm with those higher up the hierarchy than

myself, of my permittance to address this question.

[Gegogi]

The article referenced


"mammalian bipeds,"

Sheesh, ust don't utter such words in a bar while attempting to charm the opposite

sex. I'm sure your HEC will be slapped silly.

[jvkohl]

I

cannot violate an iron-clad contract (the NDA) and thus cannot reveal the "privileged information" which supports my

claims. [/FONT]

My review will be published within the next few months in the Journal of Psychology

and Human Sexuality. In this peer-reviewed journal, I detail every developmental step of the pathway involved in sex

differences in the processing of pheromones, and the sex differences in response to human pheromones (including

hormonal effects and behavioral affects.)

In retrospect, perhaps I should have claimed to have privileged

information for a few years before submitting the paper for publication. After all, I'm not making any money on the

publication--even though the review will be concurrently published in a book. Since I have colleagues that I can

name in many different parts of the world, I could even have claimed to have an international team of experts

involved.

Obviously, I have no marketing sense. All these posts with no anonymity. Anyone could check whether

I'm being truthful, or not--simply by checking my domain.

JVK

[Archetypical Hybrid (HEC)]

Sheesh,

ust don't utter such words in a bar while attempting to charm the opposite sex. I'm sure your HEC will be slapped

silly.

LOL.. point taken

[belgareth]

Once more, debate is fine. Lets

cut the personal attacks now. You are welcome to argue but I am not going to allow any further personal attacks.

Please keep it civil.

[Mohammad Shah]

Testosterone

levels peak at approximately 0730 and hit their low point at approximately 1930. So, if the time of sample

collection varies (as it usually does) your results may mean nothing, despite attempts to control for other

variables--like stress, food ingestion, psychotherapeutic drug use, etc. To attempt to show individually significant

changes would be very difficult. That's why researchers try to involve as many study participants as they can

find/fund, and also attempt to control the variables. Simply put, DO NOT TRY THIS AT HOME! Or, if you do, realize

that you might need to read a few books on the topic before you can interpret the results, which are virtually

meaningless at the individual level. On the other hand, it's not a bad idea for men over 50 to have their

testosterone level checked if they're having specific symptoms like fatigue, low sex drive, etc. Studies are now

finding many more instances of low testosterone levels than were predicted only a few years ago.



JVK

So, Mr.James, If older men would like

to increase their natural pheromone levels, what do you recommend...I read that Zinc helps...any comment on this,

Sir?

[Mungojerry]

nnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn

[Mungojerry]

rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

[tenaciousBLADE]

I've been out of the forums for merely a few days (and I'm probably ganna be out all this

coming week too); and I see a lot has been added to the discussion since I last saw it.

I don't have a lot to

say, my opinion remains the same: I have no idea if the VNO is functional or not, but for now, untill further

study is presented to the public, the chance of it being functional seems to be bigger than the

other.

Still, this discussion is very very interesting to me. And for now, all I have left to say are a few

thanks:
1) To Mungojerry: You seem to have found the right questions and wording to lead this discussion to be more

specific.
Not that I count that much, but you've gained a lot of respect in my book for these last few posts So

thanks for your input.
2) To HEC: for finally giving some details, and stopping the generalization.
It's

perfectly ok if you have details you can't reveal; still, giving some details made your credability go up a knothch


I want to clarify something here, in case it matters... I never saw your words as a lie or a marketing ploy (I

saw the marketing as an option, but never claimed it to be the true option). But now that you've explained yourself

a little further and gave us some details, reading your posts seems much more interesting. Please keep being as

specific as possible It's always good to have both sides of the topic, when having a non-finished discussion.
3)

Well, JVK... don't worry, marketing is not everything in life & you already at least have one great product with

good marketing... I've tried it yesterday for the 1st time... it's very good as a standalone indeed

[jvkohl]

So, Mr.James,

If older men would like to increase their natural pheromone levels, what do you recommend...I read that Zinc

helps...any comment on this, Sir?

I'm sure that I've commented on this before, exercise increases

testosterone and there are reports that sun exposure also increases testosterone via effects on vitamin D. I'm not

familiar with zinc.

JVK

[jvkohl]

... after a

long period of studying psychology & neuroscience, I have developed a deep distrust of any strong claims made by

scientists [even in published material in reputable journals] working in either of those fields! Most

psychologists, in my experience, are still too quick to jump to conclusions.

Many of my colleagues

agree with you. Any commercial interest tends to make them much more skeptical of what you publish. In this regard,

I will note that Richard Axel shared the Nobel Prize in Physiology and/or Medicine with Linda Buck, who I've

mentioned before. Dr. Axel has a link from his lab's site to . Furthermore the link is

under the heading "retail aroma" with the URL linked from "Scent of Eros".



http://cpmcnet.columbia.edu/dept/neu...xel/links.html

This does not mean that Dr. Axel

endorses my product, but it is evident that he is at least somewhat familiar with me and with my work--as well as my

commercial interest.

Despite my commercial interests, I am also still well-received at the conferences I

attend--especially Association for Chemoreception Sciences, where the absence of anyone associated with research

either promoting the human VNO approach, or their "discovery" of human pheromones has been noted.



JVK

[jvkohl]

Do you findings

definitively preclude the existence of other potential pathways involved in pheromone processing?

No,

my focus is on detailing the known pathway from human pheromones to gene activation in gonadotropin releasing

hormone nerve cells in the medial preoptic area of the anterior hypothalamus (i.e., gene-cell-tissue) and thus to

activation of an organ (i.e., the brain) which is part of any organ system involved in behavior. I use the

luteinizing hormone response as an example of the gene-cell-tissue-organ-organ system pathway linking the social

environment to genetically predisposed behavior.

If so could you elaborate on what

particular evidence suggests that the pathway you have identified is the only one in

existence?

There may be another pathway--but it certainly lacks detail. The

gene-cell-tissue-organ-organ system pathway is a basic tenet of social neuroscience, which is why there was so much

initial interest in identifying human genes that might code for human pheromone receptors in the VNO. If researchers

don't believe there is a human VNO, they will not continue to look for pheromone receptors there, and I don't know

anyone who's still looking.

I can't find a link to the full text/abstract of the VNO

blockage study, so I’m afraid I can't check this myself right now; however, what I would like to know is what

pheromones were used in this experiment and whether or not you believe the results can generalise beyond those

particular pheromones.

The abstract is published with the 2006 AChemS meeting abstracts; it is poster

abstract #329 on page 83--by Wyart, Webster, McClary and Sobel. Androstadienone was used; I don't want to fuel any

fires by commenting on the results.

Is there any evidence you are aware of which shows a

human VNO reaction to certain stimuli? [Even if this is not correlated with any other response in the

brain]

See the "Scientific Evidence" page of my domain for

this.

JVK

[jvkohl]

3) Well,

JVK... don't worry, marketing is not everything in life & you already at least have one great product with good

marketing... I've tried it yesterday for the 1st time... it's very good as a standalone indeed

Thanks, as you can see from reading my posts, I agree that marketing is not everything

in life; neither is integrative research. But it would be great if I could spend more time on integrative research

than I have been spending responding to what I perceive as marketing claims. As I recall, this thread started in the

"Pheromone Research" section (where there is less room for opinions).

JVK