Scent of Eros: My first test

[**DONOTDELETE**]

The breakdown could also not just be none but other compounds found in normal human sweat, the body could actually produce more rone and nol to try to keep the body up with what it thinks is the external number along with none breakdown (remember aroudn the gonads naturally) also the other compounds discussed ie -diedone.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Actually, I heard that -dienone is the precursor to them all! So, if we apply -dienone to skin, we should get -none, -rone, -nol, and other pheros we haven\'t discovered yet.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Oh ok my thinking is round the wrong way ok so what are soem of the pheros we havnet discovered yet that could be an interesting one. Anyone got any information in this area that may also be related to the SOE and testing thread of which we are currently related etc.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

So, how long does a swipe of SOE last on the skin if you don\'t exercise? Comparable to AE and PI? Do the pheros last longer than the scent like with other products?

[oscar]

truth,

You\'re right, we did want something different here, and we\'ve got it. But besides SOE\'s potential to provide the A-None-free signals that it emits when applied
anywhere else BESIDES the pits, it also has the ability to present a dynamic that has thus far not been available to us.

I\'ll admit that the strategy I outlined in the post above may hold little or no interest for the younger phero users among us, but as a man whose natural Androstenone production might just be non-existent, I find it MOST interesting.

I\'m not saying that I want mass quantities of my SOE to convert to A-None. Hell, I\'ve got lots of stuff I can use towards that end, if that were my objective. And I\'m certainly not hypothesizing that ALL skin-applied SOE will convert to A-None either. The warm conditions of the pits and crotch make them the only places that this is likely to occur.

So if you don\'t want the A-Nol in SOE to convert, don\'t put it in these confined, warm areas. Put it on your hands. Put it on your neck. Put it on your clothes! You can put it on the hood of your car for all I care! You can use yours any way you want.

Earlier in this same thread you expressed concern about both the scent of skin AND the scent of clothing being sensed by the recipient of the pheromones. What do you propose to do, apply the pheros directly under the subjects nose while wearing latex gloves and a bio-hazard suit?

I know that you\'re not stupid or short-sighted. You obviously see how a strategy such as this might be beneficial to older users of pheros even if you don\'t happen to fall into that category at present. I think you just LIKE to be argumentative. But on the whole, the forum is a better learning experience for us all as a result.
But every now and then,.... [img]images/icons/mad.gif[/img]
BTW: How IS my goat?

Oscar [img]images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

[Whitehall]

geez, guys, stop arguing!

I\'d hate to break up a good theoritical debate, but a simple experiment or two would provide FACTS.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

As a new reader of this forum, I have the luxury of not knowing any of the other members. As I read it(and not knowing any background info) I don\'t see where Truth\'s questions are off-base or argumentative. I have read many of Wylde Oscar\'s posts and they have been very helpful from the newbie perspective. But at the same time, I think Truth brings up some valid questions that deserve consideration. If I interpret Truth\'s statements correctly, he is not implying that nol/rone decaying into none is a bad thing. He is simply saying that if this happens, then this is simply another delivery mechanism for the none. Granted, it has the added dimension of a nol/rone cloud to begin with as an ice-breaker. I believe it is a matter of perspective whether or not this added dimension(perhaps of benefit to us older guys) actually consitutes a new product or simply a newer/more convenient layering mechanism for the cawwoting effect described earlier. Of course, I have yet to even try pheros so I could be full of B.S., just trying to see both sides and keep an open mind.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Nonetheless, I stop what I\'m doing to order some SOE and pledge to give it a whirl.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Crud, Whitehall, everyone was having a great time arguing (ie mental masturbation, fun to do but gets you nowhere) and you have to smash though it all with common sense. [img]images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Thanks Stanbo!

Yes, I\'m not arguing that it\'s undesirable to have some of the -nol or -rone convert to -none. However, I do prefer to know exactly what I\'m emitting. The possible conversion on skin creates uncertainty. So, is it generally agreed that -nol and -rone only converts in the axillary and pubic regions and not on the chest, arms, and neck?

I never expressed concern about the mixing of skin and clothing scents. James was saying that we should avoid applying the pheros to clothing to avoid mixing with clothing scent, and I was just pointing out that, to a recipient 3 feet away, this mixing occurs no matter where we apply the pheros.

[travis]

Let Truth exist, there are some members who have questions in thier mind and sometimes he expresses it (unknowingly) [img]images/icons/smile.gif[/img] But on the other hand redandancy is annoying too. [img]images/icons/mad.gif[/img]

Travis

[a.k.a.]

I just got my SOE yesterday, and what started out as a test turned into a dangerous liaison. No details, because a) those who believe me will be quick to moralize and b) you never know who reads these posts.

Here’s what I’ve got to report:

SOE smells great. IMO this stuff is comparable to name brand colognes. It’s complex, distinct and very well balanced.

You don’t need to add -none. My chem kit formulas have a higher ratio of -none than P10. I’m 43. AE doesn’t work for me, unless I spike it with more -none. If I can get SOE to work without added -none, I don’t see why anybody else should have any trouble.

I don’t consider SOE to be a unisex fragrance at all. Maybe it’s my skin chemistry, but even when I sniff the roller cap I think “manly scent”. On the other hand this stuff makes ME feel very horny. Either I’ve got some serious latency issues or this formula could prove successful for the ladies.

You don’t need much at all. A small swipe on either side of my neck and a dab between my wrists was plenty.

The roller top doesn’t work very well. I transferred my stuff to a dram bottle so that I can dab it on with my finger. I’ll see how that works today.

I don’t buy the stuff about -none = bad boy image, -rone = strong, reliable male image. On the other hand, I noticed a disturbing level of respect from other males. (I’m 5’ 8”, 150lbs., boyish features.) Hope I’m not scaring anybody. (I’m tempted to test it out at work, but I think I’ll wait a while.)

[Whitehall]

Walter Mitty, Wilde Oscar, Truth, et al,

Walter is quite right, you guys WERE having a great time arguing about a topical subject.

Sorry to try to throw cold water on the fun with an insistence on a factual foundation. Go right ahead!

Just let me know when you have it figured out AND you\'ve tested it in the real world. I\'m looking for effective techniques to better attract desirable female sexual partners - I\'ll leave the debate club to their mutual mental masturbation....
[img]images/icons/wink.gif[/img] [img]images/icons/wink.gif[/img]

[ January 30, 2002: Message edited by: Whitehall ]

[oscar]

Gents,

I don\'t feel required to propose only tested theories here on the forum. It\'s through the process of debate that we get input to help the actual trials succeed. I\'m not in a situation where I feel compelled to present failed experiments prior to successful ones in order to be more adequately funded on my next research grant. I\'m the one doing the funding, so I want the first trial to be a success.

The process of debate prior to experimentation will hopefully allow me to avoid pitfalls that had not otherwise been obvious to me, and establish protocols that will make my findings more conclusive.

The extent to which a debate may become heated may be disturbing to some, but I find that my brain, like a cars engine, operates more productively when it\'s all warmed up.

Mental masturbation? Perhaps. Does anyone know a better way of getting off mentally ?

Oscar [img]images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Quite honestly, does anybody have a reference to the breakdown of the pheros? It has been eluded that bacteria are responsible for this on the skin, but the body also produces these things. I looked at a lot of the precursor molecules, and enzymes, and they seem to be fairly promiscous. In other words, there are a large range of molecules with that same 4 ring structure that the enzymes will work on. I am wondering (from a biochem stand point) why -dienone is considered the starting point? It doesn\'t make much sense biochemically.

So back to the original idea. Are there any refs on this?

[**DONOTDELETE**]

To A.K.A.

Details please, about your SOE testing turning dangerous. We all know this is not a public \"say whatever you want forum\", but if you have something important to say go ahead. And If your sensored, banned or other, then so be it. As far as i know only one guy has been kick out of here.


To Whitewall

Couldn\'t agree with you more. I\'m on here to share or find out ways that phermones have already worked for people. i\'m on here to see how to increase sexual attraction from women. And that\'s the bottom line.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Huh, I think the roller ball on my SOE is working better after I dumped 1 ml into my bottle of CK1. Now, it rolls on clothing too. I just rolled a little on my dress shirt, and I can still see the swipe after 1/2 hour. Oh oh. =P.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Thats it the old master is jumping in Order for SOE just went in will let you know in a couple of weeks how this one goes he he.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

4 hours and the swipe marks have faded a little but still clearly visible. I guess someone said that oil can stain clothing? Does it come off after a wash? I hope...

[oscar]

truth,

Give the stains a shot of Spray \'n Wash or Shout and let it sit for an hour or so before washing.

All,

Warning! While I have used the aforementioned stain-removal products in the past, I have never done so on an SOE stain.
For this reason some of you will probably want to wait and see if truth has success with this method before trying it yourselves. [img]images/icons/laugh.gif[/img]

Sitting back and saying, \"Let me know when you\'ve got this totally ironed out, before expecting me to try it.\", is so completely contrary to the spirit and purpose of this forum, that frankly I\'m disgusted.
What we\'ve enjoyed here in the past was a willingness on the part of a great many members to experiment simultaneously to attempt to achieve success.
\"What if I tried it with X product?\" or \"I\'m going to double that amount and see what happens!\", are things that I\'m much more accustomed to hearing here.
Things have changed.

Oscar [img]images/icons/wink.gif[/img]

[Whitehall]

Please, forge ahead!!!

We need pioneers out there on the bleeding edge, staining their nice shirts with their concoctions, offending innocent bystanders with their stinks, etc.

Some of us are scientists - some of us are just horndogs.

We horndogs respect you scientists, we really, really do!

I promise not to complain any more.

Forgive me?

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Hey now Whitehall, some of us are Horndog Scientists... [img]images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

[ February 01, 2002: Message edited by: Walter Mitty ]

[jvkohl]

Walter Mitty;
The bacterial conversion of OL to NONE was mentioned in Amoore, J.E., Pelosi, P., & Forrester, L.J. (1977) Specific anosmias to 5alpha-androst-16-en-3-one and w-pentadecalactone: The urinous and musky primary odors. Chemical Senses and Flavor, 2,, 401-425. My notes also suggest that there is a chart showing the conversion in Gower, D.B., Holland, K.T., Mallet, A.I., Rennie, P.J., & (1994) Comparison of 16-androstene steroid concentrations in sterile apocrine sweat and axillary secretions:Interconversions of 16-androstenes by the axillary microflora--a mechanism for.. Journal of Steroid Biochemistry & Molecular Biology, 48, 4, 409-418.--sorry, no time to check on this by pulling the articles from my files. Just wanted to let you know that this conversion is commonly discussed in the journals.

Meanwhile, this Forum is more fun than the scientific debates in which I typically participate--until everyone realizes there\'s no biologically based model for visually perceived attraction (then they all go stupidly silent). Also, since a recent divorce, I\'ve converted from scientist to scientist/horndog. If not for the divorce, I\'m fairly certain SOE would not have seen the light of day, since my ex always had difficulty with experimentation that brought me too much contact from other women. But now I\'m free to enjoy everything that\'s come about from my research. Simply put, though the divorce action dragged on for nearly a year, and was a horrid experience, the end result is great!

[Whitehall]

There are indeed genetically imprinted visual templates used in sexual attraction!!! I hope you\'re not saying otherwise since it flies in the face of much research and common experience. Why a universal waist to hip ratio? Why do rounded parts of the female form act as secondary sexual attractors (soft shoulders, for example?)

The human mind is has to practice sensor integration in real time - scent, sight, voice, tactile. It\'s all a balance and a blending - a neural network in action.

Smell (pheromones ) has gotten short-shift over the years and needs tremendous catch-up but one needn\'t diss the other senses. That offers big market opportunities.

But I ask you, will pheromones ever replace silicon breast implants? HA! Supplement, yes, replace? Not in a million.

Enjoy your new-found freedom - I\'m jealous!

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Well according to James\'s theory, if everyone uses pheromones, visually conditioned perception of attractiveness will become weaker since good smell is no longer associated with physically attractive people.

[jvkohl]

Whitehall: \" There are indeed genetically imprinted visual templates used in sexual attraction!!!\"

James: If you are so certain of this, please try to find any literature that attests to the biological pathway in which these genetically imprinted visual templates are functional.

Whitehall: \"I hope you\'re not saying otherwise since it flies in the face of much research and common experience.\"

James: What I\'ve repeatedly said is that there is neither a mammalian model, nor any biological pathway from visual or other non-olfactory sensory input to sexual attraction. This does not fly in the face of any research I know about, since there is no research on mammals that suggests sexual behavior is driven by anything other than pheromones. Those who believe the common experience argument have been conned into thinking that humans somehow developed a completely different means by which to promote sexual behavior. We didn\'t!

Whitehall: \"Why a universal waist to hip ratio? Why do rounded parts of the female form act as secondary sexual attractors (soft shoulders, for example?)\"

James: All secondary sex characteristics (like those above) develop due to sex differences in levels of hormones that metabolize into--yes, you guessed it--pheromones. In the October issue of Neuroendocrinology Letters, the waist-to-hip ratio was an example I used of how we\'ve been conned into thinking this is a visually based aspect of physical attraction. Also included was facial/bodily symmetry, genetically determined odor choice, etc.

Whitehall: \"The human mind is has to practice sensor integration in real time - scent, sight, voice, tactile. It\'s all a balance and a blending - a neural network in action.\"

James: Of course integration is the key, but without pheromones there is no basis for any balance. Pheromones drive the neural network that links the social environment to the development of sexual behavior. If there is no sex difference in the processing of sensory input, it\'s not possible to get to sex differences in behavior. Our olfactory system is sexually dimorphic at birth. Other senses are the same in both sexes--so how does one develop a preference for the opposite sex? Or, same sex for that matter--try to explain homosexuality with anything other than a mammalian biological model based on olfaction. It can\'t be done--at least by any behavioral development specialist I know--and I know most of the top specialists is the various disciplines.

Whitehall: \"Smell (pheromones ) has gotten short-shift over the years and needs tremendous catch-up but one needn\'t diss the other senses. That offers big market opportunities.\"

James: Typically, as soon as I get to the point where I ask what biological model a particular specialist is using to develop their visually based approach to sexual attraction, the conversation/debate ends. Most of these folks get quite perturbed when they find out they\'ve spent their entire career studying visually based attraction, without realizing that visually based attraction originates with sex differences in olfaction. Then, the debate ends.

Whitehall: But I ask you, will pheromones ever replace silicon breast implants?

James: Great example. Tell us why men prefer large-breasted women. My explanation is based on olfactory conditioning of the visual response based on the pheromone-hormone connection that begins at birth. Every breast is large to an infant male--so the males imprint on the breast as they do on any other reward system. But this imprinting is driven by pheromones.


Whitehall: \"HA! Supplement, yes, replace? Not in a million.\"

James: Where did you get the idea that I\'m saying that pheromones replace visual input? Obviously the pheromones must be there for conditioning of other sensory input to occur. But, the other sensory input is unnecessary to reproduction--a functional olfactory system is all that\'s required. From what you\'ve said, it seems like you believe that reproduction would occur if based solely or collectively on visual or other non-olfactory sensory input. All research points to a lack of olfactory ability and lack of reproductive behavior. Also, alter olfactory ability and you get differences in reproductive sexual, and non-reproductive sexual behavior--like asexuality, bisexuality, and homosexuality, all of which can be explained by my olfactory model--but not by any visual model. Simply put, Whitehall--you have no evidence for visual templates--you just think they are important because someone said they are, not because any non-olfactory biological-based research offers any explanation of how or why these visual templates develop. You\'ve been conned into \"thinking\" that thinking about what we see is important to the development of sexual behavior. Though our thoughts enter the picture in mate choice, they have nothing to do with the development of sexual behavior--neither does visual input.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

I don\'t know if you guys are aware of this, but there have been \"beauty\" studies done with infants. It was shown(and don\'t ask me to cite a paper cause I saw it on discovery channel) that infants as young as a few months old are able to determine beauty due to symmetry in a human face exactly as older humans who can verbally communicate can. The babies stared at both photos on t.v. and also live humans holding them. The human photos with high symmetry(and considered pretty) made the babies stare for a significantly longer amount of time compared to a nonsymmetric(kinda ugly) face. I doubt if a newborn has had much chance to associate symmetry and beauty with sex and pheromones, unless it\'s hardwired somehow. Well I\'m off to test straight NPA cause I\'m kinda worried it doesn\'t work at all for me.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

I think James\'s theory that visual perception of beauty is conditioned by pheromones is good. However, even if it\'s true, these conditioned responses are important to mate selection regardless of how they arose. I think James has been careful not to imply that these conditioned responses are not important.

My biggest question is whether supplemental pheromones can exert their full effect when conditioned visual preferences are very strong. This relates also to the issue of androstadienone -- it may be the true pheromone driving the conditioned response to -none, -nol, and -rone, but the latter compounds eventually become strong drivers of behavior as well (as do silicon breast implants!).

[jvkohl]

This thread has diverged into discussion about pheromones versus visual input--see new SOE topic heading. Hope someone will also begin a new thread about their experiences with SOE.