Athena 10X

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Hello everyone,

I was wondering if anyone has tried Athena 10X from the Athena Institute ? This is an add to your colonge product like AFA. But, the product costs around $90.00 The makers claim to be the first to have done studies and testing of human phermones. And that their product really works. My question is, if it works that well, why is it not on this site ??

Also, I have been thinking of a new mix. How would TE and AFA mix together ? Do you guys think it would be a good combination ? I was thinking of adding the whole bottle of AFA to the full content of TE.

Best Regards,
The Milk Man [img]images/icons/cool.gif[/img]

[jvkohl]

Winnifred Cutler, Ph.D., markets Athena 10:13 and 10X. While she can take credit for some early work on human chemical communication, she goes too far by saying \"she discovered human pheromones,\" just as Dr. Teresa Crenshaw goes to far when she claims to have predicted the discovery of human pheromones.

Lately, Cutler\'s been claiming that her patent application prevents her from disclosing what\'s in her products. However, last time I looked, the only patent app. she filed was many years ago--long past the time it would typically take to acquire a patent if her app. had merit.

Besides, her focus was on dehydroepiandrosterone (DHEA), a very unlikely candidate to be a human pheromone since it is an adrenal androgen. Why would an adrenal androgen be attractive to men? Yet, Cutler claimed that DHEA was the active ingredient in Athena 10:13 in a national TV talk show broadcast. Then, she clammed up and said she couldn\'t divulge info. But not before she told the TV audience that a similar product for men could not be effective--because, in nature, it\'s the male who pursues the female, not the female who pursues the male. Yeah, right! Then, a year later, she came out with her 10X product for men. Cutler spouted more garbage about the concept of human pheromones than I\'ve heard from anyone before or since.

I\'m not sure about the reason why Bruce doesn\'t make 10X available from this site, but so far as I\'m concerned he has shown remarkably good taste in not marketing such a worthless, albeit very expensive, product.

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An unbaised independent customer comment here is that i have tried the stuff one early before i discovered this site and it did very little for me actually the stuff here is what sort of really got me itnerested i was using attraction and andro 4.2 which worked and is available in australia from a different source but the stuff i get from the US (stone labs) and south africe i think (lcroy NPA) its jsut where the suppliers come from. Love scents always been where i shop from recently anyway its pretty cheap to even though the aussie dollar is shit compared to the US dollar.

[wingrider81]

Milk Man/DD/Doc Kohl,
You\'ve got to give Athena an \"A\" for their website. They make it sound like Harvard University meets the Mayo Clinic.
WR

[a.k.a.]

I got sucked in. This was one of the first pheromones I ever tried. I bought all the hype and really wanted it to work. A little later I discovered APC. It was a miracle compared to Athena 10X, and it’s considered little more than a cologne on this site. When I realized the product was a scam I tried to get my money back and got a big run-around instead.

[jvkohl]

And now; the rest of the story--on Winnifred.

I\'m glad that others have commented on Athena 10X and the Athena site. In my book I might have given the hint that I have little respect for such hype, and possibly that, also, I don\'t think much of Dr. Cutler. Here\'s why:

In 1993 or 4, I called and spoke briefly with Winnifred about the work I was doing with extending my mammalian pheromone model to humans. The conversation ended when Cutler asked where I had obtained my doctoral degree--and I told her I never got one. \"Then why am I talking with you,\" she asked, and promptly ended the conversation. \"You
b_ _ _ _h\" I thought.

You can imagine my surprise when Winnifred called me in 1995 (after release of my book) to ask for my help with a text book chapter on pheromones. I told her I would let her know in a few weeks. Then I found out that Bruce McEwen (who helped me tremendously in the early years of my research) was the section editor for the section in which Cutler\'s chapter was to appear. I figured that, at least, Bruce would ensure I got credit for my input. Then I met a couple of Winnifred\'s \"friends\" --who appeared in film clips that were presented during Cutler\'s talk show appearances. They both cautioned me that Winnifred would steal material from me and give me no credit, and strongly advised that I not provide her with any information that I didn\'t want her to take the credit for. I thought this was very odd behavior for her friends, but they acknowledged that despite the friendship with her, Winnifred\'s personality alienated a lot of people.

More on the hype. The Neuroendocrinology Letters website mentions the award we received for the article \"Human Pheromones: Linking Neuroendocrinology and Ethology.\" What it doesn\'t say is that this award includes an all-expense paid trip to Prague, where I will receive a diploma with honors from the university. So, should I brag about this on my website--perhaps name dropping a little, to bolster product sales? I think not.

Most people I know tend to agree that the scientific credentialing and hype have little to do with product worth. I\'m tempted to say, the more hype; the less likely the product is to be worthwhile--but can never be sure. What we can be sure of is that if a product works well, we will hear about it in this forum.

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Of course the best site as far as ripoffs but i guess some people that have little information will get sucked in.

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Well i guess this forum must be pretty important actually im wondering how it impacts on pheromones in general the whole subject as well as serious research into this stuff, we have some science types on board now, heavy hitters so to speak (bruce james kohl and other lipid and biochemical science types) and it is also a good distribution point for the best quality pheromones at cheap prices. If only others followed along. Also im thinking that to promote this stuff we need to get into the public arena or at least raise general knowledge of the products to challange those long held beliefs of the sexual visual heavy types as james says we can have a big impact in the current generation of sceinctific research by just wearing the stuff especially those of us in medical and science settings. IT is also a major business tool as i have found working in the retail sector just a little secret i use to increase sales and make some serious money at the same time.

[jvkohl]

Dducks has the right idea: to get more info out on human pheromones. As soon as people realize how important human pheromones are to their behavior, they start realizing how much of their behavior is based on scent associations--rather than on visual input.

I\'ve helped with two college textbook chapters on human pheromones, so at least the newer students will be learning about them. But there are still way too many people who have no idea about the role pheromones play.

Dducks mentions business applications; there are more. Not sure whether I mentioned that I presented at two Anti-ageing medicine conferences \'93 and \'94, I think. The tie-in to pheromones is via neurodegenerative diseases like Parkinson\'s and Alzheimers in which the gradual loss of the sense of smell is a great diagnostic tool. In Parkinson\'s especially, I think we will see that pheromones alter dopamine levels, and thus might even be used to counter the effects of age on the dopamine system. But that\'s not all; nearly every neuronal system in our brain feedsback on the gonadotropin releasing hormone (GnRH) neuronal system, which is activated by pheromones. When you think serotonin, think pheromones and how they are likely to affect the serotoninergic (bet you can\'t say it) system, which is linked to many moods and behaviors. Can pheromones influence these moods and behaviors directly, or by affecting serotonin levels. I\'m relatively sure this is the case, and also relatively sure that this will be the next level for future research.

The topic of human pheromones will not go away.

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Same thinking james another condition associated with parkinsons and alsimzers is the movement condition tourettes syndrome what is your take on this condition i suffer personally, but also i find rone directly under the nose makes it a little worse but the semi cure i found for that was gingko bilboa and plenty of zinc supplements and magnesium so it cancels it out but it is an interesting direction of research seeing as though pheromones on thier own have such an important effect obviously it will come into play for other areas of the brain. Austim is another one im thinking of.

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Athena 10x, is the 1st phero i came across. I happened to see it it the back of Popular Science. Until that time i had never heard of pheros b4. I decided to look around online, and came across a chart compairing the phero content of differnet products. Athena 10x had the least concentrate, or close to least anyway.

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James V. Kohl said, \"[c]an pheromones influence these moods and behaviors directly, or by affecting serotonin levels. I\'m relatively sure this is the case, and also relatively sure that this will be the next level for future research.\"

I have been seeing the same young lady for over a year. Since I\'ve started using pheromones I\'ve noticed that she seems less moody and less prone to depression. In fact, she just commented last night that she seems to just be \"doing better.\" This changed behavior took place approximately two to four weeks after I started using the pheromones. I\'m sure there could be other reasons, but it is food for thought. In fact, it is a very intriguing idea. After all, it makes sense that if pheromones temporarily change the chemical reactions in the brain, long term exposure could permanently alter the long term chemical make-up of the brain. Has anyone done any preliminary research on this specific issue?

[jvkohl]

Not sure about any link to Tourettes; that\'s a new one for me. Several other neurodegenerative disorders were listed in one of my earlier presentations--the only other that I remember is Huntington\'s Korea.

But, given that this is extreme speculation, I have read reports that appear to link cigarette smoking, DHEA levels, and distinctive natural body odor in schizophrenics. Makes me wonder if the body odor is due to distinctive concentrations of DHEA metabolites: androsterone and etiocholanolone. If so, it might explain why schizophrenics tend to \"find\" each other and marry. Still, as I said, this is merely speculation, and will require many more years of disparate research to ever bring it all together.

I haven\'t followed the information on supplements (other than those strictly related to body building) for the past several years. But Dducks mention of autism is interesting--in a very heavy neuroscientific way. Asperger\'s sydrome is a form of autism that Teresa Binstock (co author of our 1996 Hormones and Behavior article with Milton Diamond) has studied extensively. She also is at the forefront of research on the immune system that complements my olfactory/endocrine system approach to behavior. The immune system has many parallells with the olfactory system--and women have been shown to mate for genetic diversity--a function of the immune system.

Somehow all this stuff is related. It\'s all I can do to stay focussed on the pheromonal approach to behavior. Others will have to strengthen the connections between disciplines at some point in the future.

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i have actually read on one austism research site that autism is caused by a lack of exposure to androgens specifically. It could be why children with austism are withdrawn. As we notice people are more happy and social when they are exposed or in my case wearing pheromones. The opposite depression and other disorders could be the result of naturally high none levels (prison convicts show higher levels of none - violent offenders) or exposure to someone with high none levels or a lack of exposure to anyone with pheromones. I have come across some children with austism and when im wearing the pheromones they seem to come out of themselves and their parents have commented as such.

An interesting direction for research

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Back to athenas products a case of the seller cashing in on their fame to much. Here at love-scent bruce being a middle man but making very little from each purchase and the forum can choose the products which work and seeing as though it is a very popular site and sells the best quality products new players in the market with the best products are good to link in with bruce. Soe AE NPA andro attraction as well as others are good and work. Unlike stuff like athena beaches and others

[jvkohl]

I see that DD recognizes the contribution Bruce has made, but want to comment further. The reason I linked to the love-scent site was because Bruce has never made any wild claims about pheromones. Others consistently asked me to link my site to theirs, Bruce never asked--I finally asked him about the link.

Look at the strategy others, like Cutler, have used. They make wild claims designed for suckers; not interested consumers. Bruce, instead, developed this forum so interested consumers could become better informed and provide feedback on products. He\'s done more for providing info than anyone I know--all the while taking a easy approach: the truth.

I\'ve been so busy with the scientific end of topics that I haven\'t been able to relate to more general audience, until recently. Finally, I started reading the comments in this Forum and I have become more informed about what you want. I\'m glad to see that most of you aren\'t looking for products that advertise GET LAID more often; or DRIVE WOMEN WILD.

The best approach is always the easy, truthful approach. Pheromones work well, they don\'t perform miracles. If you think that by wearing a pheromone product you can sucker someone else into a sexual encounter, you\'re on the wrong track. Spend more time reading in this Forum, and you\'re bound to get on the right track--thanks to Bruce.

[jvkohl]

Aumen:

I noticed a similar effect on women who responded to my natural scent with pleasant changes. This also has been discussed in the literature (in fact, it is one contribution that Cutler has made). Basically, the regular presence of a man tends to balance the menstrual cycle of a woman, and cause it to be closer to the optimal cycle for reproduction.

The long term effects are beneficial for several different hormones--all of which feed back on the same set of nerve cells that pheromones affect. I\'ve written this up for a review article that\'s linked from my site, but basically the beneficial effects of pheromones are very likely to be better than any of the psychotropic drugs, which are designed to alter/improve behavior.

If pheromones didn\'t effect levels of hormones in the opposite sex, you wouldn\'t see the behavioral changes. Still, no one has really approached the therapeutic drug effects of pheromones--other than Berliner\'s group.

Meanwhile, I\'ve said during a 1993 conference presentation and ever since then, that pheromones can make a huge difference at nearly every level of any relationship. And yes, long term exposure MUST alter the brain. That\'s what conditioning is all about. Pheromones are the only sensory stimuli that have the power to alter brain chemistry in other people; they affect hormones like estrogen and testosterone, which alter development of connections in the brain. These connections, the \"wiring\" of the brain, control our behavior. Sometimes we\'re conscious of this control--we think about it. But most of the time we don\'t have a clue as to what\'s going on around us--at the unconscious level, where pheromones rule.

Good to see that others are beginning to wonder about effects like mood change in the opposite sex. Especially since George Preti et al presented this last April: women\'s LH and mood changes in response to axillary secretions (i.e., pheromones) of men. This is just the tip of the iceberg, and we will see more research like this. Ultimately, what some of us know via intuition will be proved scientifically. Meanwhile, pay attention: your pheromones are doing much more to others than you can imagine; and so are the pheromones of others doing it to you.

Aumen wrote: \"After all, it makes sense that if pheromones temporarily change the chemical reactions in the brain,long term exposure could permanently alter the long term chemical make-up of the brain. Has anyone done any preliminary research on this specific issue?\"

You may want to look at \"Human Pheromones: Linking Neuroendocrinology and Ethology\" which is linked from my site. This paper was published in October, 2001, and helps to detail the preliminary research linking human pheromones to development of behavior via the conditioning of the visual response to olfactory input. It contains some heavyweight neuroscience, but the bottom line is that it also helps to explain what\'s happening with Aumen\'s girlfriend.

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Aumen, what\'s your mix of pheros that helped the young lady with depression? I may try putting some of it on my pillow.

Laney