The "other" chemicals of love and attraction!

[phersurf]

God, I love this stuff!

There are more important chemicals involved in attraction

and love than pheromones (sorry Bruce).

When we first become attracted to someone, our brains release

Dopamine and Norepinephrine. THe release of these 2 chemicals account for the elation, intense energy,

sleeplessness, craving, loss of appetite and focused attention we feel during this period. With men the release of

these chemicals happens much faster than women due to our more visual nature.

This accounts partly for the

reason men become so nervous to approach a woman he's attracted to. Women can't understand this because they

don't release these chamicals until they have some reason to become attracted (the man's intelligence, wit,

status, confidence, etc). This is where men seduce women (remember, he doesn't have to be seduced, he already has

dopamine and norepinephrine surging it his system based on her looks). Some men, based on their status in society,

will cause these chemicals to be released in women without any work (those bastards). Hmmm, I wonder if those girls

fainting and crying in those old Beatles films had any dopamine and norepinephrine in their brains



The chemical brew surging around our brains at this time is very close to that of obsessive-compulsive

people. This couldn't possibly explain stalkers, could it!?

As the relationship progresses to sex, oxytocin

is released during orgasm. Oxytocin is responsible for creating emotional bonds and healthy interpersonal

relationships. Women release more oxytocin than men during sex, which may explain why they tend to bond much easier

at this point in the relationship.

As the relationship progresses more, vasoprssin is released. Vasopressin

seems to be responsible for long term, monogymous bonds. Some studies seem to imply that vasopressin and oxytocin

interfere with the dopamine and norepinephrine pathways, which explains why passionate love fades in a few years.



Endorphines are also released during sex. They provide a feeling of well being, and combined with oxytocin

provide strong feelings of attachement.

Just because lust, love and relationships are purely chemical (like

all emotions) doesn't make them any less magical.

[Gegogi]

Oxytocin is responsible

for creating emotional bonds and healthy interpersonal relationships.

Sounds cool on paper. Although I

must say the more orgasms I have, the women I want to bed. And I've known a lot of women that think the same way. I

suspect opportunity as well as your social and moral upbringing also has a great deal to do with how much "bonding"

and/or sleeping around occur.

As for long monogymous bonds, that seems to be based more on culture and

opportunity, especially for men. Witness the 50% plus adultery rate in North America (I believe it's even higher in

Europe and East Asia). If I could get away with polygamy, I'd drive right in. My grandfather had 5 wives--actually

concubines--all arranged and auditioned for him by my great grandmother.

Human relationships sure are

complicated with pheromones, dopamine, norepinephrine, etc., compounded with diverse religious and social

practices.

[blooot]

so are there sprays or gels for

these? lol

[tim929]

Sprays or gels...no...hypodermic

darts would be a better bet.

[luxveritas]

there is a very funny and

vulgar movie called "employee of the month" that discusses this in some depth. It is a good movie along the lines of

"very bad things" film noir.

[phersurf]

Sounds cool on

paper. Although I must say the more orgasms I have, the women I want to bed. And I've known a lot of women that

think the same way. I suspect opportunity as well as your social and moral upbringing also has a great deal to do

with how much "bonding" and/or sleeping around occur.

As for long monogymous bonds, that seems to be based

more on culture and opportunity, especially for men. Witness the 50% plus adultery rate in North America (I believe

it's even higher in Europe and East Asia). If I could get away with polygamy, I'd drive right in. My grandfather

had 5 wives--actually concubines--all arranged and auditioned for him by my great grandmother.

Human

relationships sure are complicated with pheromones, dopamine, norepinephrine, etc., compounded with diverse

religious and social practices.

I guess I shouldn't have said "monogymous" (the original liturature

I read didn't mention monogomy), long term emotional bonds would have been more accurate. Humans are not

evolutionarilly designed for monogomy.

These chemicals and the feelings they create are happening no matter

what the influences of our religious and cultural programming have on our rational minds. They are sometimes

overridden, sometimes not.

[Gegogi]

Another oddity is one can

experience "love bonding" with multiple partners, sometimes simultaneously or in sequence. I've experienced that as

well as many of the women I've dated. I'm not merely talking about sex. These women crave a fullblown

relationship. Perhaps the oxytocin keeps them with their husband/BF (actually, probably his fat bankroll) but the

dopamine and norepinephrine keep them on my doorstep. For some it creates terrible conflicts while others enjoy the

ride.

[Cullmanz Own]

You can buy Oxytocin and

Vasopressin online. I wonder if it would be possible to add them to a mix for greater effects. Both come in spray

bottles and must be administered through the nasal passageway. Although it would be nice to be able to administer

them like pheromones. This would cause that "I don't know what it is about him but I just can't get him out of my

mind!" effect. Hmm.. I buy vassopressin for my studies. It boosts memory and concentration. I may try adding it to

my mix and see what happens. Maybe I'll buy some oxytocin next time if my vasopressin experiment works. You never

know..

[phersurf]

so are there

sprays or gels for these? lol

Oxytocin spray -

http://www.livwell.com/oxytocin-trust.html

[blooot]

...omg is that actually

legit?!?!?!

[Gegogi]

A woman need not trust or even

like a man, but she can still love him or at least want to jump his bones.

[Cullmanz Own]

LOL It's not gonna work

neway. They're both supposed to be used for personal use. I use the vasopressin for my studies. It helps me

remember easier and I can concentrate so easily. I actually do have the Deangelo book and he's great. I ordered his

new one on sex and it's damn near perfect. I've learned alot from him and my game has improved so much.

[phersurf]

And even if it did work, it

would effect the wearer as much as the intended target. It would turn the wearer into a gulible looser. Every used

car salesman in the world would be wearing this stuff.

Yep, Deangelo has turned my game around. I'm getting

to the point that I can "see the matrix", the point in an interaction where the woman becomes attracted.

[Sigma]

Here's an article you might

enjoy

http://samvak.tripod.com/lovepathology.html

[blooot]

And even if it

did work, it would effect the wearer as much as the intended target. It would turn the wearer into a gulible looser.

Every used car salesman in the world would be wearing this stuff.

Yep, Deangelo has turned my game around. I'm

getting to the point that I can "see the matrix", the point in an interaction where the woman becomes

attracted.

which book is that?

[jvkohl]

There are more

important chemicals involved in attraction and love than pheromones (sorry Bruce).

Helen Fisher

rightfully champions the role of chemicals that you claim are more important than pheromones. However, she has never

indicated to me that she thinks these other chemicals are more important than pheromones. In contrast, she is quoted

on the cover of my 1995 book: "This is science at its best, with adventure, ideas, and lots of facts..." Let's look

at the facts.

You, like many others, posit a take home message that is actually quite vague when it comes to

human attraction. I have a much more detailed explanation, for comparison.

When we first

become attracted to someone, our brains release Dopamine and Norepinephrine. THe release of these 2 chemicals

account for the elation, intense energy, sleeplessness, craving, loss of appetite and focused attention we feel

during this period. With men the release of these chemicals happens much faster than women due to our more visual

nature.

What causes the attraction? What causes the release of these chemicals? How did you conclude

that men are more visual?

"... noradrenergic, dopaminergic, serotoninergic, and opiotergic pathways... and

other brain peptides... and the complex interactions among them, are subtle but functional species-specific

influences on the electrochemical transmission of neuronal signals that the hypothalamus translates to the chemical

signal GnRH. Individually, many of these influences on the frequency and amplitude of the GnRH pulse are linked

through pharmacology and therapeutic drugs to reproductive function, sexual behavior, and various neurodegenerative

diseases..."

"... when it comes to mammalian pheromones, including putative human pheromones, their affect on

sexual behavior... may vary with a number of other likely influences on hypothalamic GnRH pulse

frequency..."

You start with two likely influences on hypothalamic GnRH pulse frequency and conclude that

they are responsible for certain effects. Instead, it is the influence of pheromones on GnRH that determines whether

other neurotransmitters that feedback on the GnRH neuronal system will affect behaviors, which are first and

foremost associated with pheromones.

JVK

[phersurf]

I was being sort of sarcastic

when I made that comment! Just trying to stir up some interest in the thread.

When I said that men are more

visual, I was refering to initial attraction. In one of the books I read on evolutioanry psychology (can't remember

which), there was a study quoted where they showed men a bunch of photos of women of differing attractivness. The

more attractive the women, the more activity the men had in their lymbic systems. When women were shown photos of

men, no matter how attractive, they had much less activity in their lymbic systems. The implication is that men are

much more visual when it comes to attraction.

[jvkohl]

I was being sort of

sarcastic when I made that comment! Just trying to stir up some interest in the thread.

No problem;

just wanted to add pheromonal perspective.

When I said that men are more visual, I was

refering to initial attraction. In one of the books I read on evolutioanry psychology (can't remember which), there

was a study quoted where they showed men a bunch of photos of women of differing attractivness. The more attractive

the women, the more activity the men had in their lymbic systems. When women were shown photos of men, no matter how

attractive, they had much less activity in their lymbic systems. The implication is that men are much more visual

when it comes to attraction.

Implications have different meaning for evolutionary psychologists than

for biologists. As a biologist, I'm certain that the limbic system activity is a conditioned response to

pheromones--one that has no direct biological link to visual input. Also, you refer to "initial attraction" but the

study was apparently done on adults. The development of preferences for attractive physical features begins at

birth, with sex differences in the processing of, and response to, pheromones. I recently completed an article for

publication in the Journal of Psychology and Human Sexuality that makes the developmental processes quite clear.

Implications from studies of adults fail to address any developmental aspect of human sexuality, as is typical of an

evolutionary psychology approach.

JVK

[Bruce]

Coincidentally, the company that

makes the "Liquid Trust" just sent me a sample. They are treating it as a cologne delivery type thing; heavy on the

alcohol. Once the alc evaporates, I can't smell anything there. Hard to say if there if there is enough oxytocin

there to do anything; of if it would work. Seems like I heard the stuff was *extremely* expensive (the oxytocin

itself). Maybe they don't put enough in there to do anything. I have tried vasopressin myself and there are

definite effects, but you have to spray the stuff right up your nose. You can't use it as a cologne and expect

anything to happen to my knowledge. I think you need a prescription to get it no?

I can probably order 100

bottles of this oxcytocin stuff if anyone wants to try it, but the results are iffy at best.

B

[chicago]

I JUST GOT MY BOTTLE OF "Liquid

Trust". I WILL KEEP YOU GUYS POSTED ON MY

RESULTS.
________
Babe blonde

[luxveritas]

The liquid trust looked like

a load of it. Apparently they have done some research on the use of oxytocin as a

scent.

http://news.nationalge

ographic.com/news/2005/06/0601_050601_trustpotion.html

I dont think national geographic is easily bought.

Might be a new kind of pheromone.

after looking into it deeper, the individuals in the study were given a nasal

spray. I dont think putting things up others noses is socially acceptible yet.