Turning friends into lovers...

[got phero?]

Eh

everyone,

Well a female friend and I have been getting pretty close over the last little while. From the outside

you might even say we're dating, just without the kissing and the sex. A few of our mutual friends have told me

that we'd be perfect for one another, and naturally I'd like to bridge the gap so to speak from friends to

something more. The problem is we're housemates, and if she wasn't interested, things could become awkward for

obvious reasons.

I usually wear a few dabs of NPA, SoE and A1, whenever I know she's ovulating, which tends to

get her a little hot and bothered. She becomes quite flirty, but whenever I go on the offence or try to get closer,

she likes to playfully push me away/ punch me, giggles a lot, and likes to continuously tease me. But that's all it

ever seems to be, one big tease. She knows that I have other prospects out there, and I've stayed well away from

the "nice guy" persona to avoid LJBF land.

The annoying thing is whenever I go out at night or don't tell her

what I'm up to, she desperately needs to know where I went or who I was with. And when I don't tell her, she needs

to know even more. But when I give her my full attention and spend time with her, she tends to be a little prissy,

pays less attention towards me. I think she enjoys knowing she could have me whenever I'm around, but becomes much

more interested in me when she knows she can't have me or I'm not spending time with her.

So I was wondering

if the forum could share any advice or stories of how they turned a friend into something more. I'd be open to any

advice the women in the forum have too. Thanks.

[belgareth]

Pull away a little in your

daily life. She's got control of the situation now. When you pull back, have other things to do she starts noticing

and needs to know where you are and what you are doing. Be nice about it but let her know that her position is as a

friend but she can change it when she wants to cut the games. You may blow it completely but right now your letting

her play a game with you.

[surfs_up]

this is where good quality people reading skills come in very handy, and why you need

them more, dramatically so, when you start to play with pheromones... once the pheros kick in it looks to me like

more layers or aspects of naive others in the vacinity (naive in the technical sence, they don't know about the

extra pheromones) open up and become available to those others. Where you have been used to dealing with one more or

less straight line of communication you may have two or three "conversations" going on through unconscious signaling

systems and it will become your job to sort them out. Pheromones are great starters but they aren't good managers,

it's like having a star sales team and the order fulfillment and service crew you hope will do justice to the sales

department. I often work with beautiful, ambitious, gifted young women where my job is to both be deliberately

provocative to bring out a strong performance and at the same time fully respectful of their boundaries, I think the

most important thing for them is that they know that I have a high concern for the integrity of their boundaries and

I'll never try and break them down "for their own good" (which can be the biggest line of self serving bullshit

used by manipulative freaks in more than one industry)... if I sense resistance or discomfort it goes better if I

start asking a lot of questions about her values, interests, hopes, what motivates her, and a picture develops of

who she thinks she is, what her real self image is like, not her facade she's putting on for her intended

professional life, and then, OK, how can we co-operate and do something good just on the safe side of the line...

[tim929]

Yeah,Belgareth is right on that

one.It would seem that she is interested but she wants you to make her work for it alittle.She,like many women

subconsiously understands that she is in the position of power and influence,and as a result she can play this

little game till the cows come home.Pull away alittle bit and make her come to you and you will probably begin to

see her building the bridge instead of having to do all the work yourself.

The one mistake that you want to

avoid though is the one I make all the time and have seen so many other men make.Dont ever stop making her work

alittle.As soon as she senses that she has you and there will be no struggle,she will begin to stop working at it

and ultimately begin to pull away,causing you to start chasing again and as a result driving her further away.Always

remember to have YOUR OWN LIFE!Something that will keep her interested in maintaining the relationship and not

reject it because you are trying to hard.

I dont completely understand why women seem to need that sort of drama

in a relationship to be happy but having seen it so many times there is an overwhelming body of evidence to indicate

that as soon as you stop running,she will start going the other direction.You dont have to be a jerk about it,and

you dont have to run that hard.But women are happy when they are trying to keep up with you rather than being

smothered.And if you are chasing her it will turn her off.Men with a life and a direction of thier own are sexy.Guys

that chase a girl to the ends of the earth are seen as needing to get a real life.

As for pheromones,they are a

very interesting way to spice things up and get alittle better position.They might also help with occasional use to

keep things in the bedroom interesting.

[Gegogi]

I dont completely

understand why women seem to need that sort of drama in a relationship to be happy

It vaildates them,

tests your grit and I think many woman actually enjoy the game. It's sort of like the cat that hunts a little bird,

catches it, tortures a bit and turns it loose only to be pounced on again. Guys have their own stupid rituals so I

think the games between the sexes are pretty even steven.

Incidentally your housemate certainly has a lot

more to loose thah a normal dating situation if things go south. She has to be very sure as she's stuck with you at

home and might have to quickly move... I've had flings with housemates and they never lasted very long and it was

soon too awkward to stay.

[tounge]

Let me just put your situation

bluntly. Your balls are firmly in her hands. It will be interesting to see if you can get them back and use them on

someone else. Also, you need to move out of the living situation you are in. The sooner the better.
Nothing more

really needs to be said. It is entirely up to you when the necessary and much needed changes are to be made.

[hatch]

My only comment is this. If

she's a very good friend, imagine your life completely without her in it....no friends, no hanging out, nothing.

My reason for this, my last relationship was with my best friend of almost 7-8 years. We felt so good being around

each other that we thought dating would be the right next step. It was fun for a short time, but then the

boyfriend-girlfriend roles seem to be a little more prevalent. From here it was a downward spiral and we eventually

broke it off mutually. Since then, we rarely speak. I do regret pursuing this relationship. That's my 2 cents

worth.

[Holmes]

Sounds like some nasty dynamics have already set in - and they're virtually impossible to reverse.

Once this girl's got your balls in that vice, the only direction is tighter (clockwise, if I recall).

I beg

you...move away...and save the children.

[got phero?]

I'll admit we've had some

good times, but lately I've become really annoyed with these back and forth games (ie, one moment she's super

flirty, ice queen the next). I've already decided on living somewhere else when I come back to school next year and

she knows that. Six months ago, I'd be more concerned about ruining a friendship, but she's changed a lot since

then. I'm almost at the point where I'd either want to have a relationship with her, or get away from her

entirely. She's got an amazing body so I wouldn't mind a romp in the hay, and if anything else developed, bonus.

But if it didn't work out, at least it would have been fun fooling around with her.

Thanks for the advice

guys, please keep it coming! I'd really appreciate hearing more about your past experiences and stories of friends

becoming more.

[tounge]

She's got an

amazing body so I wouldn't mind a romp in the hay,

Nough said. I suspected this when I

read your initial post. Believe me pal, no amazing T&A is worth your self respect.

[catlord17]

Nough said. I

suspected this when I read your initial post. Believe me pal, no amazing T&A is worth your self

respect.

On this point I have to concur.

I have noticed that women seem to like men who couldn't

care less. It's basically a black or white situation - either you're in the pilot's seat, or she is. So the

obvious solution would seem to be that you simply stop playing her game. Then you have control, and since you

"don't care", she would probably go bonkers for you.

Then again, I'm not able to see all the particulars of

the situation.

But I would definitely stop playing her game.

[Gegogi]

I have noticed that women

seem to like men who couldn't care less.

I'm sure this is true from time to time--I've seen dippy bimbos

in action. Nevertheless, my personal experience is real women are attracted to a confident, strong and intelligent

man. When he shares a like attraction to her she goes bunkers and they share the magic and responsibilty of the

relationship. Indifference doesn't encourage intimacy very long and certainly such game playing makes a man seem

rather immature (read: high school mentality). When I was young and stupid I used to act like a player, can get

anyone I want so I don't give a damn about you type and found it quicky scared off women of substance. I realize I

was merely insecure and trying to act like a man but was actually a frickin' dickhead.

It's basically a

black or white situation - either you're in the pilot's seat, or she is.

Now this just ain't so. It's a

normally gray situation with both parties fully involved. If it is totally black 'n white the relationship is on

unequal footing and bound to quickly fail. Sheesh, it's not about one or the other fighting for control. A

friendship that blossoms into a romance is all about equal respect and adoration. If the friendship is real, you

have already established a basic mutual trust and emotional affinity, so you should be able to talk openly. If it

was me, I'd talk to her directly and put it all on the table.

Incidentally, most of my extended relationships

began as friendships. It's a very comfy transition. Unfortunately when the relationship goes south, most women

don't seem to be able to return to the friendship phase.

[catlord17]

Well put, Gegogi. I concur on

both points. However, a woman who plays games is not what I would consider a "real woman". Such a woman is,

indeed, trying to gain control; that is usually the point of mind games. Given this, shades of gray really don't

make sense. It's a control game, and such games aren't played to compromise. Otherwise, why play at all? Why

not just approach it with compromise in mind, and throw the games out the window? If the game is for control,

compromise is probably the last thing she's interested in.

I also agree that communication is the best

solution. I'm just used to seeing a lot of these women who like to be emotionally mistreated act this way, and the

only way to "succeed" with them seems to be to give them what they want. (For instance, I've lost a number of

girlfriends because I refused to treat them poorly.) I don't think playing their games is worth while, and nobody

said he had to be emotionally abusive by not playing her game.

It seems to me that you are approaching this

from a much more mature point of view than she probably is, Gegogi. It sounds like she is in her teens or twenties.

Usually, women get tired of these games in their thirties, from what I have seen.

[chicago]

1. Unfortunately, once a woman

has "made up her
mind" about a guy, it's usually VERY difficult to
change her mind.

2. It's difficult to

un-do one of these situations
once it has reached this point. Don't try to un-do it. Just get on with
your life

and quit obsessing over her.


3. Women act on emotion and intuition more than
men. They don't do the "logical"

thing as often as
men.

4. If you're in a situation like this where a
woman has said "I only like you as a

friend", then
you're best off going out and meeting some other
women and getting on with your life

IMMEDIATELY!
Don't wait. Get on with it.

5. If you disappear from HER life, then turn up a
month or two

later... and you're dating a few
other attractive women... she might see you in a
new light. Jealousy is a VERY

powerful motivator to women
and this is often what it takes to get a woman to
see you in a new

light.
________
LovelyWendie99

[Gegogi]

Sounds to me like she is testing

and/or confused and has not made up her mind. It appears from Mr. Got's post she is emotionally bonded to him. And

emotional involvement runs deeper and is more significant than mere physical entanglements. I've had similar

situations happen a number of times. You don't plan or expect it to happen. In fact, it's not supposed to happen

between housemates, coworkers, etc. so you try to ignore it. However an emotional attachment grows over time and

increasingly creates tenison until something happens. Often one or more of the involved are in denial over the

deepening attraction and emotional bond. Accepting the evolving relationship can be pretty tough with a roommate

situation.

Incidentally I've had many woman tell me they want to be friends. Often it means they want to fuck

you with no strings attached, e.g., friends with benefits, or it means they have a husband or BF and have difficulty

admitting they want to fool around. I've rarely found it to mean you suck as a man so get lost. Of course you gotta

hold up your end of the deal or end up as a dickless running dog.

[surfs_up]

pitch her a jaw dropping proposal, you, her and Maximus the german shepard.... cover yourself from head

to foot in NPA and ask her how she feels about dogs, big masculine dogs...

Seriously folks...

You guys

are going around in circles because neither one of you is calling the head game and breaking out of it. Time to

disrupt the status quo. Pour a bucket of vomit over her head.

One guy who I respect on the subject of

negotiations said that the best negotiating tool was the true willingness to get up and leave the table and not turn

around and walk back into the room. If you KNOW you can leave without the deal all the rest of the tactics don't

mean crap. I walked out in the middle of a thing once, the girl had one idea of what it was all about and I didn't

share that... I was grooving on her on one level and getting pissed off on another one. I told her plain and simple

I was going to leave her and she laughed at me, she ran her usual line of crap the next day, and by that evening I

told her to go take a flying leap into the septic tank... no big scenes, not heavy emotion, only this is wack jive

and have a nice day.... yeah she had awesome tits, smart as anybody you'd meet, and no common sense about how to

have a balanced relationship, as in "what have you done for me, lately ? ".....

The BIG thing you MUST watch

out for is that your pheromones that you apply to yourself will have a greater effect on YOU that you may realize

because you think if you are conscious of them, thet means they won't be working on you and distorting how you

perceive the interaction... you may easily be under the influence of your own stuff, and have attached feelings to

this realtionship that you otherwise might not have... that's happened to me at least twice, and even more

confusing is if you are together with a high level of pheromones, your realting can build an internal momentum that

can continue even if you are not wearing any, a natural dynamic will evolve....

I would strongly suggest that

you use no pheromones, none whatsoever, and bathe thoroughly before seeing her, for at least one month, and see how

the energy goes from there.

[got phero?]

That's an interesting

suggestion Surfs_up, but she was a flirt/ tease well before I ever purchased pheromones. A few of my friends have

told me that she does tend to lead me on a bit, so I know I'm not imagining it.

I would agree with Gegogi on

the subject of "grey area" in terms of control. There are lots of times when I feel there's a mutual respect, or a

balance of some kind. At other times I may feel like I'm completely in the drivers seat, which is usually

accompanied with confidence. I just need to watch out whenever she's wearing a push-up bra and a tight pair of

jeans. She's the type that knows she's hot, and knows how to put out a little cleavage. Interestingly enough after

all the talk about T&A, it's her eye's that I find most attractive.

Last night I came home late from an

evening out, wearing my usual combo and axe as a cover scent. Within a few minutes she was in my room asking me

where I'd been and I simply acted calm and cool, yet didn't disclose where, or what I'd been up to. Afterwards,

she came in and out of my room often, telling me about her day, giggling and fidgeting at times. It's quite easy to

tell when she wants attention, but I stayed firm and kept most of my attention on my books. Her eye's were fully

dilated so I knew she was somewhat excited to see me.

I can't go out every night though, so I've decided I'm

going to pull back a little, and hopefully let her bridge some of the gap. How did you do it Gegogi? Did any of the

women you were friends with make the first move? Would any of the women in the forum care to comment?

[DUKE3100]

Back in the day I use to always

find myself in these predictiments. One story I have for you that really sticks in my mind was this very game

orientated fox girl who had been playing with me for months. I knew enough not to show her my cards and to play the

game with her at first but I wasnt skilled enough at the time to be able to win at the game against her superior

skills. Being the niave guy I was back then I finally decided to force the issue. I wrote her a poem note

(HAHAHAHAHAHAHA) and came to her dorm late at night to meet with her. Things had really been heating up and I

thought this was my chance. I gave her a hug and she kept looking at me and giving me these signs (that i was too

niave to pick up on). I left content to have her read the poem that had my true feelings...my plan....for us to

become lovers and roll off into the sunset like wild horses. Needless to say things didnt go down that way. Now

there is a moral to this story besides the fact I use to be a hopeless romantic moron with a poor game. The moral is

in what she told me much later...months after I gave up on her romantically for withdrawing from me after my poem.

She said "You know the last boyfriend that I had slowly played with me for months and chased me for months and

finally after the anticipation had built he just kissed me and that is how it all started. Obviously you were not

interested in me as much as you thought you were. If you had been then we would probably have made a great couple"

At the time I thought she was crazy....I still kinda do....Why the hell would I put months and months of effort for

no gain into a girl when there are plenty of others out there for me to get with much less effort????? The funny

thing.... is that the answer to that question from a females perspective is exactly the reason why they do what they

do....I dont think they do it consciously but that it is interwoven deep in the DNA. Moral of the story?? If she is

worth it to you than you will play the game with her...but make sure you know what the game is...how to play

it....and how to read in between the lines. She will thank you later. One more thing though....I hope you have not

acted like her girlfriend and if you have you are in for a steep climb my friend.

[tounge]

For cryin out loud people. This is

real simple.
Our boy here really wants to tap into that "Amazin" body of his roomie. He ain't crankin that

fine, delectable, honey pot. He is frustrated. This little sweetie knows this, therfore his sack is firmly ensconced

in her hot little hands; that are attached to that "AMAZIN" body of hers. Best of luck Bud. I'm out of this one.

[gamecity]

Let her go....... get her out

of your mind. Do it for a month or so.
Talk and flirt with her again after a couple of months and see if the

situation changes. If it doesn't then move on and find someone else.

She likes being chased, and the attention

that you are giving her. It makes her feel wanted, and somewhat pretty. You are boosting her ego too much.
You like

being the hunter. You like the chase. You like to chase pretty girls and you think about the wonderful reward that

you will get when you caught her.

So give it a month or so. Forget about her. You need to keep in mind that

there are plenty of girls in the sea. There are other pretty girls out there.

[DUKE3100]

For cryin out

loud people. This is real simple.
Our boy here really wants to tap into that "Amazin" body of his roomie. He ain't

crankin that fine, delectable, honey pot. He is frustrated. This little sweetie knows this, therfore his sack is

firmly ensconced in her hot little hands; that are attached to that "AMAZIN" body of hers. Best of luck Bud. I'm

out of this one.

If this is whats going on then I agree with him....good luck. If you are coming across

like you want and need it....you have broke rule number 1...time to tone up your game if this is the case.

[Kardz]

Eh everyone,



Well a female friend and I have been getting pretty close over the last little while. From the outside you might

even say we're dating, just without the kissing and the sex. A few of our mutual friends have told me that we'd be

perfect for one another, and naturally I'd like to bridge the gap so to speak from friends to something more. The

problem is we're housemates, and if she wasn't interested, things could become awkward for obvious reasons.

I

usually wear a few dabs of NPA, SoE and A1, whenever I know she's ovulating, which tends to get her a little hot

and bothered. She becomes quite flirty, but whenever I go on the offence or try to get closer, she likes to

playfully push me away/ punch me, giggles a lot, and likes to continuously tease me. But that's all it ever seems

to be, one big tease. She knows that I have other prospects out there, and I've stayed well away from the "nice

guy" persona to avoid LJBF land.

The annoying thing is whenever I go out at night or don't tell her what I'm

up to, she desperately needs to know where I went or who I was with. And when I don't tell her, she needs to know

even more. But when I give her my full attention and spend time with her, she tends to be a little prissy, pays less

attention towards me. I think she enjoys knowing she could have me whenever I'm around, but becomes much more

interested in me when she knows she can't have me or I'm not spending time with her.

So I was wondering if

the forum could share any advice or stories of how they turned a friend into something more. I'd be open to any

advice the women in the forum have too. Thanks.

She's testing you. Most women play games or test to

some degree. And like Belg and i'm sure other's have said, she is in control. You give your power away. You need

to play the game like she is. Not "let her play games". Be mysterious and playful about it.

It sounds like you

already understand the dynamics of it asking us here on the boards. She's more interested when you have the power

and are being secretive, and less when you give her what she wants and aren't playing the game with her.

Play

the game.

Ryan

[belgareth]

Yes, she's in control. But the

idea is to stop playing the game. So long as you play games, she will too. Surfs up made a remark about being

willing to walk away from the table, that's the right attitude. Don't try to control her but don't let her

control you either. If she wants to play games you walk away every time. That doesn't apply to just this situation,

it applies to everyday life and every relationship.

There are a lot of good women out there that aren't into

playing games. When you play games with them, they'll walk away from you. As a matter of fact, the majority of the

good women aren't interested in games. They are interested in having a good relationship with a caring man who can

stand up for himself but can still treat a lady like a lady. As people get older they tire of the games and you'll

find fewer and fewer are willing to put up with it.

[Kardz]

Nah, trust me. It's all a game,

and a test. All women do it to test if your the real deal or "just a friend".

She plays the game, you play the

game. It's about power and men that have power are attractive.

Being ready to walk away at any time, I agree,

that's a good mindset. It represents power, that you can take it or leave it at any point.

Me and Belg might

have different perceptions of what "games" are.

But you saw the interest level sky rocket when you played coy

and didn't give her what she wanted.

Keep your power. Tease her back, it'll amplify the attraction. And when

your in control, not giving her what SHE wants, she'll come to you.

If you've read any of David D's books or

studied his material, or talk to anyone that has, they'll agree with me. And it's true.

And when you have your

AE/A1/SOE or whatever you mentioned above on when she's ovulating, that's prime time to take it to the next level.

Until then, just work it.

Ryan

[DUKE3100]

Yes, she's in

control. But the idea is to stop playing the game. So long as you play games, she will too. Surfs up made a remark

about being willing to walk away from the table, that's the right attitude. Don't try to control her but don't

let her control you either. If she wants to play games you walk away every time. That doesn't apply to just this

situation, it applies to everyday life and every relationship.

There are a lot of good women out there that

aren't into playing games. When you play games with them, they'll walk away from you. As a matter of fact, the

majority of the good women aren't interested in games. They are interested in having a good relationship with a

caring man who can stand up for himself but can still treat a lady like a lady. As people get older they tire of the

games and you'll find fewer and fewer are willing to put up with it.

OMG!!!!!!!! YOU HAVE GOT TO BE

KIDDING ME!!!! are you kidding??? Look man I have been with a lot of women in all different status and stages. I

have also done the whole happy couple lets get a house lets get married and have a baby thing too. I have been with

women who I thought were "different" and just like the women you describe. I thought that they did not play games.

Your passage makes me lose tremendous respect for you Bel because it shows just how much of a dream world you live

in. I cant blame you though because every time I have been with a girl and really loved and cared for her I thought

she was the girl that didnt play games. NEWSFLASH.....ALL GIRLS PLAY GAMES. Its in their nature and its in their

genes. They manipulate you to get all sorts of things in a relationship or not in a relationship. Thats what girls

do. I am not saying its a bad thing but to say that most girls are not interested in playing games is a very niave

comment. Everyone plays games to a certain degree. It doenst have to be premeditated or on purpose. Women like

emotion and they like to feel. They like drama. They are fickle...this naturally causes them to do things that do

not make sense. Its in their biological make up. You act like a big science guy....man you disappoint me here Bel.

Course I can totally understand being in love and being happy and being in that place where you are right now and I

cant knock you for that. She seems very intelligent and I am sure you are a great couple and their is good reason

for your insanity.

[DUKE3100]

Nah, trust me.

It's all a game, and a test. All women do it to test if your the real deal or "just a friend".

She plays the

game, you play the game. It's about power and men that have power are attractive.

Being ready to walk away at

any time, I agree, that's a good mindset. It represents power, that you can take it or leave it at any point.



Me and Belg might have different perceptions of what "games" are.

But you saw the interest level sky rocket

when you played coy and didn't give her what she wanted.

Keep your power. Tease her back, it'll amplify the

attraction. And when your in control, not giving her what SHE wants, she'll come to you.

If you've read any

of David D's books or studied his material, or talk to anyone that has, they'll agree with me. And it's true.



And when you have your AE/A1/SOE or whatever you mentioned above on when she's ovulating, that's prime time to

take it to the next level. Until then, just work it.

Ryan

Yea see all three of us have a different

perspective on what the game is. Bel is hopefully referring to the games that girls play that are nasty and selfish

games. Ryan is talking about pre-meditated games. I think there are plenty of girls who play pre-meditated games and

I try to keep away from those. All girls play games however.

Girls are in a very challenging position in our

world. They have to bare our children and carry them for 9 months. Its not like she is a guy who can have three

different ex-girlfriends with his kids (an extreme example but it happens). Not only that but women are now expected

to work too! To top it all off they are overly emotional creatures and have hormone fluctuations that you and me

would probably go insane if we got them. They are biologically programmed to try to seek out the true man that can

take care of them and provide for them and be in it for the long haul to help take care of the child. On top of this

they live in a society where the trend is for guys to act more like girls and not be masculine. Their DNA and

biological make up is to weed through the weak pathetic man and find the real man. Someone who is not only masculine

but also for real and not a two timer.

How can you expect it to be any other way?? They have to play games!

Thats just the way it is. If you dont want to enjoy the thrill of the chase and the game with them....than you are

not worth their time! period. If you want the girl you will play the game. Part of the game is TO WALK AWAY AND TO

SHOW THAT YOU DO NOT NEED HER THAT YOU ARE HAPPY AS A MAN AND YOUR HAPPYNESS DOES NOT DEPEND ON HER....Sometimes the

only way to win a womens heart is to be willing to lose it. Why would you want someone who doesnt want you anyways

....right?You need to be a man and take control and be in control of this without being controlling...get it? If

she can frustrate you and cause you to give up than you are not worth her time. She usually doesnt play games on

purpose...its a part of being a female.

[Gegogi]

How did you do it Gegogi?

Did any of the women you were friends with make the first move?

Hmm, a lot of the posters are taking this

situation far too seriously. This is not war and it is not a balls-to-the wall scenario. Nobody is emotionally

invested enough to drive off a cliff if things go south. It is a little crush between roomates.

Back in the

day the woman dropped hints and tried to entice you. Nevertheless, she expected the guy to make the first physical

move. She appears to be giving you clear signals and it's your turn. As a college student I was really shy and slow

to the draw but I managed to figure it out once she dropped from the ceiling and bit me on the ass. Nowadays it

depends so you gotta go with the flow. My last two GFs were in their early to mid-20s and were much more physically

aggressive than women I used to date. Both beat me to the punch. I guess they were tired of waiting for me to grab

them after I mercilessly teased them and enticed them for weeks. I can enjoy it both ways so it's all

good.

As for my long term friends that turned into lovers, it was pretty mutual as we evolved into it

together. Just remember if she is a really good friend, sadly, you'll probably have to say bye-bye forever when you

break up. Most women don't take prisoners when they move on.

[tounge]

Where the hell do get you the

thought that she has a crush on him. I'd bet even dough that some stud is laying the pipe to her at this very

moment.

[belgareth]

OMG!!!!!!!! YOU

HAVE GOT TO BE KIDDING ME!!!! are you kidding??? Look man I have been with a lot of women in all different status

and stages. I have also done the whole happy couple lets get a house lets get married and have a baby thing too. I

have been with women who I thought were "different" and just like the women you describe. I thought that they did

not play games. Your passage makes me lose tremendous respect for you Bel because it shows just how much of a dream

world you live in. I cant blame you though because every time I have been with a girl and really loved and cared for

her I thought she was the girl that didnt play games. NEWSFLASH.....ALL GIRLS PLAY GAMES. Its in their nature and

its in their genes. They manipulate you to get all sorts of things in a relationship or not in a relationship. Thats

what girls do. I am not saying its a bad thing but to say that most girls are not interested in playing games is a

very niave comment. Everyone plays games to a certain degree. It doenst have to be premeditated or on purpose. Women

like emotion and they like to feel. They like drama. They are fickle...this naturally causes them to do things that

do not make sense. Its in their biological make up. You act like a big science guy....man you disappoint me here

Bel. Course I can totally understand being in love and being happy and being in that place where you are right now

and I cant knock you for that. She seems very intelligent and I am sure you are a great couple and their is good

reason for your insanity.

News flash...Not all girls...correction...not all WOMEN play the tpe games you

were refering to. Maybe I've been lucky or maybe you've been unlucky but whatever the case, you're flat wrong! As

I've got older fewer want to play games but it has never been all who wanted to play. Maybe my refusal to play is

the reason, I really don't know or care but I do know that I don't play and will not tolerate games from any woman

or any person. I walk away every time. To me, the games are all about dominance and control. I'm not going to try

to dominate anybody and do not allow others to dominate me. If a woman isn't interested in a relationship on those

terms I'm not interested in her. Could it be that we hunt in different grounds and the mentality is different where

I hunt?

I grew up with several sisters, one was a year older than me and one was a year younger. I saw and heard

a lot of that nonsense growing up and didn't like it much. Maybe that makes the difference in how I deal with

women.

As for losing your respect for stating something that seems rather obvious to me, oh darn. My

experience isn't just recent nor is it a result of Wood Elf, it's worked that way for me likely since before you

realized their was a difference between girl people and boy people. Honestly, if its insanity, it sure beats

the reality a lot of you guys have choosen.

[got phero?]

Well Tounge I'm not entirely

sure if she has a crush on me or not, but then again I probably wouldn't be talking about it on the forum if I knew

for sure. We are close though. But I know for certain there isn't some "stud laying the pipe to her". In fact she

hasn't seen anyone for at least six months. She doesn't date, and she hardly ever goes out. You might say she's a

bit of a prude. On the other hand, sometimes I'd say she's sexually frustrated and just needs a good lay.



Even if she is playing games, and I'll admit from time to time I think she does, It doesn't mean I've lost all

control. Whenever she gets all dolled up and shifts into prissy mode, I keep my distance/ do my own thing. And the

moment I think she's just looking for some quick attention, I don't have a problem with saying no, or walking

away, which I often do.