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  1. #1
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    Default Concentration of pheros in sweat

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    Comparison of 16-androstene steroid concentrations in sterile apocrine sweat and
    axillary secretions: interconversions of 16-androstenes by the axillary microflora--a
    mechanism for axillary odour production in man?

    Gower DB, Holland KT, Mallet AI, Rennie PJ, Watkins WJ.

    Department of Clinical Biochemistry (Steroid Laboratory), London Hospital Medical College, England.

    The concentrations of five 16-androstene steroids were determined, by a GC-MS method, in freshly-produced apocrine sweat (adrenaline-induced), in 8 men and 2 women. The ranges of concentrations (nmol/microliter) in
    apocrine sweat were: 5 alpha-androst-16-en-3-one (5 alpha-A), 0.1-2.0 and 4,16-androstadien-3-one
    (androstadienone), 0-1.9, 5,16-Androstadien-3 beta-ol (androstadienol) was also found in 5 of the subjects (range
    0.05-1.05). 5 alpha-Androst-16-en-3 alpha- or 3 beta-ols [3 alpha (beta)-androstenols] were only found in small
    amounts (< 0.1 nmol/microliters) in a few subjects.

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Concentration of pheros in sweat

    Would it be possible for someone with a science/chem background to decipher all of this (i.e. what percentages of each of the pheromones are present in the males and females)? I\'ve often wondered what the natural average percentage of each of the pheromones is in comparison to the other pheromones (i.e. 1 part nol to every 3 parts none, etc.). Thanks! [img]images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Concentration of pheros in sweat

    The amounts here are tiny, but the volumes are different than what we use with synthetic pheromones. 2 nmol/microliter [thanks truth!] of androstenone (5alpha-androst-16-en-3-one) is about 0.0014%. To compare, PI has 0.05% -none and APC has 0.005%

    Of course, we only use a drop or two of PI (about 100 microliters), while we sweat more profusely. The same amount of -none as 100 microliters of PI would be in about 3.5 ml of sweat. That\'s a lot of sweat for me, unless I\'m exercising.

    I don\'t know much about the other compounds mentioned in the study, but they are probably metabolites of -none. From what I\'ve read here, they\'re not in any of the pheromone products.

    This study may not have much to do with sexual arousal. Notice that the sweat they measured was produced with adrenaline. That means that it was \"fear\" sweat, which is usually stinky stuff. Personally, I smell different when I\'m afraid vs. exercising vs. aroused.

    So, I don\'t really see how to translate this study to \'mones from bottles.

    Hope this helps,
    Laney
    (biochemist but NOT sterol expert) [img]images/icons/wink.gif[/img]

    [ December 12, 2001: Message edited by: Laney ]

    [ December 12, 2001: Message edited by: Laney ]

  4. #4
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    Default Re: Concentration of pheros in sweat

    The concentrations are in nmol/mircroliter not ng/ml! Can you do the conversion? I think you need to multiply by 1000 microliter/ml and the molecular weight of androstenone (?).

  5. #5
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    Default Re: Concentration of pheros in sweat

    Oops *blush* - I just blew my typing! I did do the conversion & calculation based on the 2 nmol/microliter concentration in the paper, and looked up the MW of \'none in the Sigma catalog. I\'m going back to edit my post now.

    Laney

  6. #6
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    Default Re: Concentration of pheros in sweat

    Interesting that the concentration of androstenone and andorstadienone (in Realm for Women) are relatively high while for androstenol pretty low. Sweat containing 1/3 as much androstenone as APC seems pretty significant! If you sweat a lot and let your clothing dry, the mones should still be there.

  7. #7
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    Default Re: Concentration of pheros in sweat

    Hmm... I wonder if the sweat produced during exercise would cause everyone to OD.

    Maybe, the 0.02 mg pheromone dose, which Scientist has estimated to be optimal, mimics the amount exposed on a naked male body at rest!

  8. #8
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    Default Re: Concentration of pheros in sweat

    Pardon me for thinking out loud, but...

    You\'ve got a concentration of ~ 1 nmol/microliter, which is 1000 nmol/ml. I have no idea of the molecular weight of andro____ but most organic compounds we smell are at 100-300g/mol. I\'ll use 100 g/mol.

    So, this works out to 100g/mol * 1000 nmol/ml = .0001 g/ml, or .1mg/ml.

    Now, the really potent stuff in the chemistry kits is 1mg/ml. Attraction is about .15 mg/ml -- barely more than sweat.

    It\'s kind of hard for me to imagine that sweat is this potent. 1 ml may seem like a lot, but I\'m from Phoenix and we sweat liters per day in the summer!

    What was the protocol to get the sweat? Exercise? Adrenalin injection? This mighyt be an issue.

    So...where did I screw up the math here? Am I horribly off on the molecular weight?

    I wish there was a bigger sample size. I\'d love to know the average phero output, and the standard deviation.

  9. #9
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    Default Re: Concentration of pheros in sweat

    Molecular weight of androstenone: 290.4.

    Oh oh, that puts sweat on the same concentration of NPA?! Confused...

    However, I would think the concentration would depend on how much sweat is produced, like Scientist suggest. If you\'re sweating liters, I think it\'d be mostly water.

  10. #10
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    Default Re: Concentration of pheros in sweat

    OK, the abstract is from:

    J Steroid Biochem Mol Biol 1994 Mar;48(4):409-18
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov:80/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=814231 9&dopt=Abstract

    Maybe, someone can look more into this. This seems like very relevant info.

  11. #11
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    Default Re: Concentration of pheros in sweat

    Scientist, you\'re right. It\'s been to long since I\'ve had to do those sorts of calculations. Don\'t miss \'em, either. I liked my wrong answer better, though because it makes more sense to me. That\'s why I didn\'t catch the mistake in the first place.

    The correct result in familiar mg/ml units puts the -none in the sweat at up to 0.58 mg/ml, which is comparable to PI. As for what I was saying earlier about \"fear\" sweat, the abstract mentions that the subjects were injected with adrenaline. I agree that the relevance to sexual attraction is questionable. In fact, fear tends to be a turnoff.

    I\'m roaming pretty far afield now, but I wonder if the effects of \'none overdoses aren\'t alpha-male reactions, but rather reactions to someone who smells afraid?

    Laney

  12. #12
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    Default Re: Concentration of pheros in sweat

    I think this study is relevant, because it makes me question how supplemental pheromones work if the concentrations in the various products are no higher than sweat. I think these sweat samples were collected from the armpits. Would the sweat from the armpits be much different than from the rest of the body?

  13. #13
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    Default Re: Concentration of pheros in sweat

    There are lots of factors to consider. First off, some nrrdy news. Cholesterol weighs 387 g/mole. There are 256 different possible isomers that could be formed from this four ring precursor (The basic structure has a bunch of options. . . ) As far as sweat is concerned, there is always the possibility that microorganisms have something to do with it (they are responsible for the BO smell, but they produce that from oils) The way in which the sweat is produced can also be a factor. The bottom line is there are too many variables to mess with the get a reasonable answer. Don?t get me wrong, simple studies are the foundation of what will revolutionize the industry.

    One last thing to note. These products are very concentrated and pretty pure versions of the phero molecules. What is in sweat is most likely VERY diverse, and not that the research is bad, but other factors are probably involved. I don?t want to rain on the parade, but do take the results with a grain of salt.

  14. #14
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    Default Re: Concentration of pheros in sweat

    Sweat is not equal to sweat. Mammals have eccrine sweat glands and at certain spots apocrine sweat glands.
    Only the apocrine glands produce the pheromones we are talking about here.
    Eccrine glands can be found anywhere along
    the integument. In primates the apocrine glands are found in the armpits and groin.
    Guess why the pubic hair growing there and only there....

    That makes for the skin covered with apocrine glands a surface of maybe 2 x (5cm)² for the armpits plus maybe (7 cm)² (or more generously (10 cm)², totalling a surface of roughly 100 to 200 square centimeters. The entire body of a grown up has 1.6 to 2 square meters. So about or less than 1% of our skin is covered by apocrine sweat glands, producing pheromones.

    So as the regions covered by apocrine glands are limited, the absolute amount of sweat containing pherosmones is quite limited too.

    Therefore the artificial pheros applied are relatively strong compared to the average sweat production of office couch potatoes.

    To me the calculated figures are quite astonishing too. But still not confusing, why small amounts of pheros have such impacts (sometimes).

    P.E.

  15. #15
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    Default Re: Concentration of pheros in sweat

    Interesting points about the apocrine sweat glands. I guess if we run out of money, we can find a way to collect sweat from out armpits to use like NPA!

    So, I\'ve heard so much about these two mystery pheros in Edge. Who started this gossip?!

  16. #16
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    Default Re: Concentration of pheros in sweat

    Actually, truth, I know you\'re joking about getting pheros from elsewhere, but...

    I wonder if phero effectiveness could also be due to the fact that they let you \"relocate\" your armpits and groin to more interesting locations. I put my pheros in the hair, behind the ears/neck, and wrists. Not exactly places you\'d expect to find pubic hair. (Well, at least my own pubic hair. [img]images/icons/shocked.gif[/img] )

    BTW, updating my math for the MW of andro___ puts it at .29mg/ml. Now this is based on me taking the middle of the range (1) of 0-2 nmol/microliter. As I said before, I\'d like to know what the distribution was. If 90% of the test subjects were clocking in at 0.1 nmol/microliter, then our store-bought pheros are much more potent that \"average\" sweat.

    In reading the abstract, a couple points:
    Androstenols were present in very small amounts (<0.1 nmol/microliter) so your typical androstenol product here is probably running about one or two orders of magnitude more potency -- or maybe more, read on.

    The cited potencies I did the math on were for apocrine sweat. It\'s clear that there\'s WAY more pheros here than in axillary skin samples. Note that the \'nol levels in axillary skin were higher than in apocrine sweat for some of the subjects, and the concentration was measured in picomol -- so the \'nol pheros sold here are ~ 10,000 to 100,000 times stronger than typical sweat from either apocrine or non-apocrine glands!

    Also note that the androstenone concentrations for non-induced sweating (aka everyday skin) were 2.5 picomol per cm2.

    Now, this gets interesting...

    2.5E-12 pmol/cm2 * 20000 cm2 = 5E-8 pmol
    where 20000 cm2 = surface area of the body.
    5E-8 * 290 g/mol = .0000154g, or
    .0145 mg of \'none on your body.

    Now, I didn\'t make ANY of this math up, just following the numbers. What\'s the magic dose I found from reviewing the hits here?

    0.02mg, which, given the margin of error, is pretty damn close to the above figure.

    I wonder if we\'re just washing our own pheros down the drain when we shower, then adding them back? In any case, it looks like the \'none figure is 0.015 mg, and we\'re adding another 0.015, becoming twice the man, so to speak. Or maybe just a man who hasn\'t showered.

    The mind boggles.

    The big question I have:
    Can we get a hold of androstadienol and androstadienone for testing?

  17. #17
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    Default Re: Concentration of pheros in sweat

    One point that I have not really seen addressed is, the levels of pheros in the sweat of the test subject, did they get any DIHL looks? [img]images/icons/smile.gif[/img] No really, the point I would be interested in is the hit level and the natural level. There is nothing to point out that these are equal. Individuals with higher levels might get better responses in a controlled environment, but if a wildcard with PI was added, how do the cards stack up?

    To answer another question, yes your normal pheros probably go down the drain in the shower, that is what the soap is for. In its most basic form, it is an emulsifier. Its job is to emulsify oils/dirt/grime and float away happily in the shower water.

    As far as the other pheros you mentioned, there was a post on a steroid manufacturer. They will give you a nasty note about who can order what. Big deal, ask them if the pheros are available to the general public. If they are, they will promptly get back to you with a yes, or no for that matter. But, if they are, order them. Just ask in a professional and polite manner.

    On that side note, off to the books. . .

  18. #18
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    Default Re: Concentration of pheros in sweat

    It seems actually that phreos are produced in other areas as well but in only very small amounts, it seems all over the body just concentrated on the glands. Seems when skin floats off our bodies the pheros come out then to. Or maybe its the signature the different ratios of different pheros.

    Thats why my new mix works well its got

    rone nol none + the other two mysteries of the edge.

  19. #19
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    Default Re: Concentration of pheros in sweat

    Great, Scientist. I was hoping that you would respond to this thread. Your points brings up some thoughts.

    1. Yes, if pheromones are normally found only in the armpits and groin areas, relocating them to your shirt, arms, and face would be a major advantage. Your armpits and groin areas are usually covered up by clothing!

    2. I had a suspicion that the optimal phero dose may be related to what occurs naturally. However, I think a ever bigger factor than showering that reduces our normal radiation of pheromones is clothing! If we all walked around nude with our armpits and genitals exposed, perhaps we wouldn\'t need supplemental pheromones!

  20. #20
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    Default Re: Concentration of pheros in sweat

    Here\'s the link to buy androstadienone from Sterloids.com.
    http://www.steraloids.com/products/A/A570.html

  21. #21
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    Default Re: Concentration of pheros in sweat

    Uh, that link will work great is we can persuade Mr. Stone to repackage it for us. I\'m not especially fond of DEA visits. [img]images/icons/shocked.gif[/img]

  22. #22
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    Default Re: Concentration of pheros in sweat

    Unfortunately, I don\'t think Mr. Stone can repackage the androstadienone for us because Realm has patented its use in fragrances.
    http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PALL&p=1&u=/netahtml/srchnum.htm&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1=\'5278141\'.WKU.&OS=PN/5278141&RS=PN/5278141

    I have no doubt that we\'d have androstadienone in many pheromone products if it weren\'t for the patent. However, the patent doesn\'t prevent us from ordering androstadienone ourselves and mixing it.

  23. #23
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    Default Re: Concentration of pheros in sweat

    Hey, he doesn\'t have to sell it as a fragrance. Just as an additive, or heck, just as a repackaged chemical like he\'s doing for us with androsten____.

  24. #24
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    Default Re: Concentration of pheros in sweat

    Hmm... I wonder if selling androstadienone specifically as an additive is in violation of the patent. Or maybe, it\'s a loop hole! I guess you got to read the patent carefully.

  25. #25
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    Default Re: Concentration of pheros in sweat

    Yo!

    I\'m no scientist, but I know a little about patents.
    In a patent application, which goes on to be the \"Claims\" portion of your patent, if the patent is granted, you strive to be as broad in your scope as possible. This allows you to claim that other subsequent inventions are variations on your idea. (Thus, Erox sought protection for the use of a range of pheros, including those they would later decry as pig pheromones.)
    The exception is when the claims become specific, to avoid infringing on prior patents. (At the time of Berliner\'s application, Jovan already had a Japanese patent, and likely had global patents pending.)

    Berliner et al. seemingly have been granted patent protection on the use of phero compounds, synthesized by their method, and mixed with a perfumery odorant.

    Whether or not it could be determined that Androstadienone or any of the other pheros listed could be analyzed and thus found to be synthesized by their methods, is a question I\'ll let the chemists answer. It is clear from the patent though, that as an additive, without fragrance added, no phero sold without an accompanying fragrance would violate Erox\'s patent protection. Neither would a phero synthesized by a different method, even if it WAS fragranced, violate the patent, as these are syntheses of naturally occurring substances. But then, I\'m not a patent attorney either. [img]images/icons/crazy.gif[/img]

    Oscar [img]images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

    [ January 21, 2002: Message edited by: Wilde Oscar ]

  26. #26
    PheroWizard oscar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Concentration of pheros in sweat

    truth,

    Who\'s to say that other companies aren\'t using it? [img]images/icons/laugh.gif[/img]

    Oscar [img]images/icons/wink.gif[/img]

  27. #27
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    Default Re: Concentration of pheros in sweat

    Well, if other companies are using androstadienone, they\'re not advertising it, which doesn\'t make sense to me. Wouldn\'t the sale of AE go up if they could claim a balanced quadruple pheromone mix?

  28. #28
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    Default Re: Concentration of pheros in sweat

    So, according to the patent, was Realm granted any power over the use of -none and -nol? If the patent is not overly restictive on the use of androstadienone, why hasn\'t any other companies tried including it? There seems to be enough research behind it.

  29. #29
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    Default Re: Concentration of pheros in sweat

    truth,

    Let me ask you, or any of the other chemistry people a question. Would it be likely that the ONLY way to synthesize Androstadienone was the method outlined in Realm\'s patent?

    I\'m going to guess that you KNOW where I\'m going with this, but as you haven\'t enabled the private message option on your profile, and your E-mail address is blocked, you\'ll get to enjoy a game of twenty questions. [img]images/icons/wink.gif[/img]

    Oscar [img]images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

  30. #30
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    Default Re: Concentration of pheros in sweat

    Depending on what precursors I could get my hands on, no there are at least 7 manners to produce this stuff. But, as I said, it depends on the precursors. Quite honestly, I?d be inclined to look up what enzymes in the body, or in microorganisms, metabolize steroidal cmpds. This, if possible, is an extremely clean and specific manner in which to produce large quantities of the cmpds, or a specific precursor. Needless to say, there is also the question of yield. This is a factor that can depend on reaction environment or precursor or both. Also there is always a purification process. Crystallization is considered the best (It really only crystallizes when it is pure) but other methods are out there.

    Bottom line, it could be done. You would need a synthetic organic lab and some time, but it could be done. One other note to make, has anyone looked this up in Chem Abstracts? If a synthesis has been published (Then the info would be out for any one with access to the journal) it will be in the abstracts. Sci Finder is an online search engine, but I do not have access any more. If I were trying to do this sort of thing, that would be my answer.

    Final note, unless steraloids is paying a fee to produce their version of the phero, there is definitely another method to make the stuff.

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