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  1. #31
    Doctor of Scentology DrSmellThis's Avatar
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    visit-red-300x50PNG
    That is a true success story.

    Many of the programs I've seen, and some I've been a part of, that work well, help people do just those kinds of

    things. He may have had quite a bit of support from others to be able to do that, but was able to contribute to his

    potential. Heart warming.
    DrSmellThis (creator of P H E R O S)

  2. #32
    Moderator belgareth's Avatar
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    The point is that our society

    is failing the majority of 'handicapped' people by not helping them to become more self sufficient resulting in

    more government and greater burden on society as a whole. I believe that the majority would rather do something than

    nothing, given the opportunity, no matter what their limitations are.
    To compel a man to subsidize with his taxes the propagation of ideas which he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical.

    Thomas Jefferson

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    That's true. Rehabilitation

    services is one of the most underfunded places I know of.
    We had to practically beg them for our equipment, and

    they're constantly stiffing us on our hearing aids.

  4. #34
    Doctor of Scentology DrSmellThis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by belgareth
    The point is

    that our society is failing the majority of 'handicapped' people by not helping them to become more self

    sufficient resulting in more government and greater burden on society as a whole. I believe that the majority would

    rather do something than nothing, given the opportunity, no matter what their limitations are.
    Absolutely.

    That's how you know something is sick and wrong. Pretty much everyone wants to do something, unless they are very

    ill.

    An interesting idea would be to develop some kinds of job rehab services based on giving people a chance to

    do what they'd want to do, when they can't find anyone to hire them to do it. You creatively fit jobs to people

    rather than vice versa, and actually provide the work environments and business support for various type of work.

    The theory is that what people naturally would want to do is potentially valuable to society. I realize it might be

    a bit naive, but I wonder. I bet something along those lines could work.
    DrSmellThis (creator of P H E R O S)

  5. #35
    Phero Enthusiast Netghost56's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrSmellThis
    An

    interesting idea would be to develop some kinds of job rehab services based on giving people a chance to do what

    they'd want to do, when they can't find anyone to hire them to do it. You creatively fit jobs to people rather

    than vice versa, and actually provide the work environments and business support for various type of

    work...
    They do that already. Arkansas Rehabilitation Services does, at least. They assigned me a career

    specialist that's supposed to help get me a job. She's sent several job offers my way, and though she doesn't

    keep in contact, she lets me know when a job is available in the area where we want to move to.



    Quote Originally Posted by DrSmellThis
    ...The theory is that what people naturally would want to do is potentially valuable to

    society. I realize it might be a bit naive, but I wonder. I bet something along those lines could work.
    I

    always thought I could change the world, I guess lots of people do. It's something to hope for.

  6. #36
    Doctor of Scentology DrSmellThis's Avatar
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    Lightbulb A revolution in work support servcies?

    I wasn't referring to finding jobs for people, but rather to creating jobs to match people's

    interests and talents -- an organization that would specialize in getting a contribution from people who had

    struggled to find a way to contribute on their own, and need extra assistance.

    You look at who you have, and

    make the system both match that and be flexible. The particular structure the organization would assume for a "job"

    would depend entirely on a sub group of customers it was serving.

    It would have a number of structures ready to

    go, based mostly on patterns their target market tended to exhibit, and a certain cutting edge ability to develop

    work structures
    on the fly, based partially on at least three sources; including a theory of the "work

    characters" people exhibit, generic organizational categories; and specific interest/talent content areas that need

    support in a particular community.

    Regarding funding, it would be partially government assisted; based on

    increases to GDP and/or decreases in needed assistance; due to not working previously. That portion would be

    investment, not handout. Another part would be fee for service, based on the organization taking a percentage of

    income to provide generic or model organizational services. A third part might perhaps be charitable contributions.

    The charter of the non-profit corporation would be renewable, based on demonstrated ability to serve a target

    community.

    So in short, the service would be to provide custom, model work and organizational services of

    all kinds; work structures; for people who don't quite "fit the mold", and are not well-served by temp agencies and

    typical rehab and employment services.

    It would take full advantage of advances in technology, that make virtual

    work structures possible to construct; especially the internet, and software development advances.

    If you need an

    example from industry, it would partially be like taking the idea behind Mountain West Communications --the "virtual

    generic warehouse" that helps Bruce -- to the nth degree times ten! But services would not be limited to

    warehousing, as with Mountain West.

    Services would include almost anything you could imagine, from office space

    and support, to marketing, to secretarial, to actuarial, to labor, to data mangement, to customer service, to tech

    support, to product development, to purchasing, to sales, to managerial! You would have different departments, like

    a university. You would also have different scales on which these areas were supported for particular individuals,

    from a simple piece of software, to simple human support, to a desk and a phone, on up.

    To the extent possible,

    the different parts of the organization and "job structures" would be made to work together and support one another.



    A goal would be to work as closely as possible with communities to keep this virtual work community from

    supplanting natural community structures. This is because traditional communities have done this sort of thing in

    the past through knowing its members and how to make use of them. But traditional communities have been supplanted

    by corporate and industrial communities. So we have to restore some of the functionality society has lost through

    losing its communities.

    Does that make sense? The market is systematically excluding a lot of good,

    talented, interested people (e.g., people with ADD that aren't well-organized, people who don't specialize), and

    this would be easier than changing the nature of 21st century capitalist institutions (a goal I also support, of

    course). This would be designed to assist those who had slipped through the many holes in the nets offered by modern

    capitalist institutions.

    It would acknowledge that the responsibility is not all on the individual to fit

    into society
    , but is also equally on society to serve individuals; and not just corporate profits.

    We as

    society have abandoned the individual for the corporation to our own detriment, and yet there are some who want to

    put it all on the individual to sink or swim. But we sink or swim together, ultimately. We all pay for any

    individual not fulfilling their potential, and there is ultimately no way to avoid that, no matter how

    selfish/callous you are! It is self defeating for society to put the responsibility all on individuals! We are all

    made poorer. If individuals could already be doing it without society's help, they would, by and large. People do

    love to work!

    The benefit of acknowledging this responsibility is a truly richer life for us all, based on the

    benefits the extra achievement of human potential would provide to us all. This is simply a logical solution to this

    big picture state of affairs; and another example of holistic thinking.
    Last edited by DrSmellThis; 10-09-2005 at 05:10 PM.
    DrSmellThis (creator of P H E R O S)

  7. #37
    Moderator Mtnjim's Avatar
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    "Fearing a rash of new cabarets after a federal judge struck down the city's 17-year moratorium on new strip

    clubs, the City Council is planning to vote Monday to impose some of the strictest adult-entertainment regulations

    of any big city in the country."


    They've never been to San Diego!!
    Freedom begins when you tell Mrs. Grundy to go fly a kite.
    --Lazarus Long

  8. #38
    Moderator belgareth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrSmellThis
    Absolutely.

    That's how you know something is sick and wrong. Pretty much everyone wants to do something, unless they are very

    ill.
    That, the absence of everyday courtesies and general apathy towards the society are all signs of

    a sick society. The fact that most don't see these as an issue just makes it worse.
    To compel a man to subsidize with his taxes the propagation of ideas which he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical.

    Thomas Jefferson

  9. #39
    Doctor of Scentology DrSmellThis's Avatar
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    Mutual alienation

    ("a-lie-nation") seems to be a common theme underneath everything you are referring to. Alienation in our

    culture grew out of the industrial revolution, as people were forced away from their communities and families to

    work. We got into the habit of seeing everyone as separate, as strangers that are not to be trusted or cared about.

    Now corporations run our governments and communities. People have the impression that societal systems are

    self-serving, and at odds with regular people. What our nation does, such as invade non-threatenng countries,

    becomes more and more cut off from any kind of collective consciousness of the people. We withdraw even more and

    care even less about society. Funny how so much can be traced back to corporatism (a central, essential component of

    fascism). You are correct that too few recognize the issue.

    The alienation extends to the relationship between

    citizens and government, then; such as between citizens and the military. I see good indirect reasons for

    supporting a draft, such as noted, but bad direct reasons for doing so, given the lack of moral integrity or

    necessity behind our military actions. The violence, death and suffering are unimaginable.

    That makes for a

    problem. Implementing a draft is clearly the wrong thing to do by some of our most treasured moral values; and yet

    might well lead to the best consequences, ultimately.

    The situation is irreduceably ugly, with our young people

    ultimately just refusing to fight by not enlisting. That refusal leads to more suffering among our current troops,

    and an inability to accomplish military goals. They have good, even morally impeccable, reasons for refusing to

    participate. How do we respond to that?

    I would personally resist if I were drafted at this time, unless there

    was some clear purpose I could, in good conscience, get behind. I'd do my time in prison, or leave. Maybe provoking

    that resistance is the true goal and value of a draft. In the mean time you are destroying the souls of a lot of

    young men and women, and enabling our government to better accomplish destructive ends around the world, destroying

    the lives of so many others.

    No one should ever have to be in a position to make this kind of horrific choice,

    whether you are a draftee or not. One issue is the need to clarify responsibility for this ugly problem. In response

    to this insanity, foist upon us by our government, people are going to make whatever choices and conclusions they

    are going to make; none of which can ever completely make sense. So we all suffer from a mental illness of sorts.

    It's crazy-making.

    Remember what happened to enlistment immediately following 9-11? Does anybody here think

    people wouldn't want to defend their county if we were attacked, or defend it if they knew defending each other was

    what they were doing?

    So what do you do? Do you have a draft in a country where the military is used for mayhem?

    Does that result in in the government having to answer to the people, or in the government having more power to

    destroy humans for nothing? Does it make us more honest, or make the price of living here the destruction of your

    soul?
    Last edited by DrSmellThis; 10-10-2005 at 01:40 PM.
    DrSmellThis (creator of P H E R O S)

  10. #40
    Moderator belgareth's Avatar
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    Rather than say refusing to

    fight I'd say refusing to serve. Fighting is not necessarily and important part of serving, there are many other

    ways one can serve their country. Even the act of voting is serving in its own way. Our society is becoming more

    narcissistic by the year. More and more people are tending towards the attitude of "What's in it for me?" and

    looking less at how they can help others. Koolking made a point of that recently. Young people are less and less

    inclined to see that they need to contribute to their society to make it work.

    Look at so many of the posts in

    the pheromone forum. The gist is all too often "How can I manipulate somebody into fulfilling my wants?" There is

    very little asking how to maintain a good relationship with others. Once they get laid they couldn't care less

    about the other person, or so it sounds from their posts.

    The source may well be the influence of corporate

    culture, I don't know because I've never explored that area. My guess is that there are likely many contributing

    factors. The real question (Uh oh, here goes Bel's wanting to take things apart and make them work again )

    how do we address it? I could make a good argument that this country is sick and dying. Can it and should it be

    cured?
    To compel a man to subsidize with his taxes the propagation of ideas which he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical.

    Thomas Jefferson

  11. #41
    Doctor of Scentology DrSmellThis's Avatar
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    Oops, I just realized I'm not

    in the "draft" thread. Here I thought I was tying everything back in to the topic! Shitth! That long winded post was

    for nothing!

    ***
    Can and should it be cured? It needs to be cured, probably, because it's not going away,

    and will continue to be a problem. This plot of land we're on will always be here, there will always be people

    living on it; and this country will remain a force for the forseeable, distant future. It can be cured from the

    inside or outside, or both.

    It cannot be cured right now, however. It's not time for it to happen. Only the

    groundwork can be laid. You have to read history into the future accurately and think clearly. It will not happen

    overnight or painlessly. It probably starts with raising consciousness, integrity for the sake of power/clarity, and

    community action.

    In the meantime, we also need leaders who think the bigger thoughts, communicate the thoughts,

    and act according to the thoughts. Dennis Kucinich is the only major politician I've heard do anything close to

    this in recent years. The level of his consciousness goes far beyond the others, from where I sit. I met him here at

    an Earth Day celebration, and would be happy to have him over for dinner anytime, from what I know so far.

    Leadership helps define collective consciousness as much as it does anything
    .

    Consciousness drives

    everything else.
    Most don't realize this. We must look at this factor, not just whether policies A, B, and C

    are "conservative" or "liberal" for them. Policies are accidental to consciousness and a bigger understanding. It's

    not about effective policies, per se, because the bigger consciousness will lead to more effective policies

    in the long run; and because the best policies change with circumstances. Whatever the specifics of those policies,

    wisdom will eventually recognize the best way and balance things out. Policies are details. Again, most of us do not

    understand this, IMHO.

    We can also make the patient more comfortable while fighting the long illness.

    In the

    mean time, we need to raise consciousness and act locally to implement the consciousness. I'm also tempted to get

    off the corporate grid completely, so as not to support it. My friends and I are talking of forming a community.



    The whole survival thing is difficult too, since the work you do is an implementation of your integrity and

    values. People are challenged here like never before.

    Some might find it necessary to leave. Much depends on who

    you are as an individual person. No one path fits everyone. I've tended to hang in the middle of Babylon and take

    sort of a warrior path, but I'm getting a little old for that any more. I want some peace, love and joy in my own

    life. I hope that's not selfish. I hope peace starts at home.
    Last edited by DrSmellThis; 10-10-2005 at 02:52 PM.
    DrSmellThis (creator of P H E R O S)

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    Moderator Mtnjim's Avatar
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    "In the mean time, we need to raise

    consciousness and act locally to implement the consciousness. I'm also tempted to get off the corporate grid

    completely, so as not to support it. My friends and I are talking of forming a community."

    Shades of the late

    '60's and early '70's!!!

    Reminds me of my youth. But, then again, sometimes even

    some of the best "sell out"!!
    Freedom begins when you tell Mrs. Grundy to go fly a kite.
    --Lazarus Long

  13. #43
    Moderator belgareth's Avatar
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    While it is true that people

    will continue to live on this plot of land I can't agree that the country is here for the forseeable future. I

    don't know that it is going away either but there are some serious cracks in it that are being swept under the rug

    instead of being addressed. Examples are the fights over prescription medication imports, the right to die, medical

    marijuana, immigration and so on. States are begining to pull away from federal authority on dozens of small issues.

    There are some real issues here. But that is still another topic that should be addressed elsewher or maybe in its

    own thread.
    To compel a man to subsidize with his taxes the propagation of ideas which he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical.

    Thomas Jefferson

  14. #44
    Moderator Mtnjim's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by belgareth
    ... States are

    begining to pull away from federal authority on dozens of small issues. There are some real issues here. But that is

    still another topic that should be addressed elsewher or maybe in its own thread.
    Not to mention the

    environment!!
    Freedom begins when you tell Mrs. Grundy to go fly a kite.
    --Lazarus Long

  15. #45
    Doctor of Scentology DrSmellThis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by belgareth
    While it is

    true that people will continue to live on this plot of land I can't agree that the country is here for the

    forseeable future. I don't know that it is going away either but there are some serious cracks in it that are being

    swept under the rug instead of being addressed. Examples are the fights over prescription medication imports, the

    right to die, medical marijuana, immigration and so on. States are begining to pull away from federal authority on

    dozens of small issues. There are some real issues here. But that is still another topic that should be addressed

    elsewher or maybe in its own thread.
    I think it's great the States are doing that. This week Oregon's right

    to die is being challenged in the Supreme Court, for example. We rebel against the feds more than any other state, I

    think.

    Maybe you're right about cracks in the armor. It all depends on what happens politically. If every

    leaderhip was like the Bush crime family, national destruction would be assured eventually. The obscentity of it is

    ultimately just too unacceptable to everyone here and in the rest of the world. Since you have seemed to me to

    believe all politicians are essentially alike (similar to my father's current belief, but correct me if I'm wrong

    to characterize you this way), I could see how you might think that.
    DrSmellThis (creator of P H E R O S)

  16. #46
    Moderator belgareth's Avatar
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    Start with a piece of

    misinformation that has been propogated for many years. They say power corrupts. I say power attracts the corrupt.

    Thus, any person aspiring to high office should be considered suspect until proven otherwise. As yet, not one has

    been shown to be free of corruption. That so far has applied to both politics and corporate structure.
    To compel a man to subsidize with his taxes the propagation of ideas which he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical.

    Thomas Jefferson

  17. #47
    Moderator Mtnjim's Avatar
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    As the man said:

    "Suppose you

    were an idiot ...
    And suppose you were a member of Congress... But I repeat myself."

    --Mark Twain
    Freedom begins when you tell Mrs. Grundy to go fly a kite.
    --Lazarus Long

  18. #48
    Doctor of Scentology DrSmellThis's Avatar
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    Random thoughts: I'm not

    denying your thesis, Bel, but... you don't believe power can corrupt as well? Could both be true? Are leaders by

    nature corrupt? Does leadership attract corruption too? Is literally no one that is a natual leader or who is drawn

    to leadership free of corruption? Could you define corruption then? How much is due to it being harder to get

    elected without dirty tricks? Is it possible to refine your thesis to account for all of this? We might have more

    options if it's not so black and white. Is there anything in your own tendency toward leadership that is corrupt?

    (question to provoke insight only -- no obligation to answer). Is there any danger in self fulfilling prophecy in

    looking at power as corrupt? Can we teach a better leadership? Can we learn to support a differnt kind of leader? I

    certainly agree you don't just immediately trust someone running for office.
    DrSmellThis (creator of P H E R O S)

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    Hollywood is a good example

    of "power corrupts", I think. Most actors come from a less than luxurious life when they start out. but after

    several years of fame and high living, they get this "diva" attitude and you end up with these riders like they have

    on the smoking gun website.

  20. #50
    Moderator belgareth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrSmellThis
    Random

    thoughts: I'm not denying your thesis, Bel, but... you don't believe power can corrupt as well? Could both be

    true? Are leaders by nature corrupt? Does leadership attract corruption too? Is literally no one that is a natual

    leader or who is drawn to leadership free of corruption? Could you define corruption then? How much is due to it

    being harder to get elected without dirty tricks? Is it possible to refine your thesis to account for all of this?

    We might have more options if it's not so black and white. Is there anything in your own tendency toward leadership

    that is corrupt? (question to provoke insight only -- no obligation to answer). Is there any danger in self

    fulfilling prophecy in looking at power as corrupt? Can we teach a better leadership? Can we learn to support a

    differnt kind of leader? I certainly agree you don't just immediately trust someone running for office.


    You, of all people should know better than to even think my thoughts are black and white. There are innumerable

    layers of complexity but the basic assumption holds true in the vast majority of cases.

    You missed the point,

    those who seek high office should be suspect until proven otherwise, those who have it thrust upon them are not

    necessarily corrupt but can be corrupted by power and should be watched. I challenge you to name a single holder of

    high office who was not corrupt. You hit it on the money though, without corruption could they have reached high

    office? I doubt it.

    Am I a leader? A natural leader? Both are questionable. I do what I do and I am good at it

    so have always risen to the top. Does that make me a (natural) leader? I don't think so. Does leadership imply

    corruption? It has the potential for corruption but I think it falls under the second group above, it was thrust

    upon them. A natural leader leads only because others decide to follow. As demonstrated by the last several

    presidents, high office does not have to entail leadership. So we must define leading as that through coercion as

    opposed to that done through willingness. Obviously if you decided to not follow the government's rules you would

    have a few problems with the force that would be brought to bear against you. I think big guys with guns qualifies

    as coercion

    You would have to define corruption to decide if I am corrupt. Would I ruin somebody because he/she

    disagreed with me? Never! Would I use my high office to gain sexual favors? Never did but don't have too many

    problems keeping an active sex life and never have. Take full advantage of the money and other benefits that comes

    with it? You bet your a.. I have and continue to do so! Would I use whatever power at my disposal to stomp on

    somebody that gave me good reason, say attacked me? Do you really need me to answer that? So, by some definitions I

    am corrupt. I can accept that.

    Quote Originally Posted by netghost56
    Hollywood is a good example of "power corrupts", I think.

    Most actors come from a less than luxurious life when they start out. but after several years of fame and high

    living, they get this "diva" attitude and you end up with these riders like they have on the smoking gun

    website.
    You are assuming they had no corruption befoe they became stars. Do you believe that they had

    no wild plans or idas before they became stars?
    Last edited by belgareth; 10-10-2005 at 07:24 PM.
    To compel a man to subsidize with his taxes the propagation of ideas which he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical.

    Thomas Jefferson

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    Phero Enthusiast Netghost56's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by belgareth
    You are

    assuming they had no corruption befoe they became stars. Do you believe that they had no wild plans or idas before

    they became stars?
    Perhaps some do. But many simply forget that they were once waiters, cabbies,

    secretaries, etc. And they develop this air of superiority, which you know I'm against.

    Actors are driven,

    motivated people. But they're also emotionally fragile. When they get to the point where they demand more than they

    deserve, I would consider them corrupted by power.

    Power, control, and money are the three temptations of

    corruption, IMO.

  22. #52
    Doctor of Scentology DrSmellThis's Avatar
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    Thanks for your answers and

    honesty, Bel. I was just trying to get more thoughts thrown into the mix. I'm probably the guy who would take the

    blowjob from Monica, like Bill, if I was in a bad marriage and desperate. But maybe not, since I love the potential

    of building trust. But sex is my biggest weakness, though I have turned it down plenty of times to keep my

    integrity, including when I was in a troubled relationship. I think having all sexual activity forbidden to me

    outside marriage, growing up Catholic, led me to choose to rebel. Power doesn't much interest me. Teaching, the

    "father role", and some other kinds of basic leadership do, but not leadership per se, unless secondary to whatever

    I'm doing. Most of my interests and likes in people are simple, humble, and low rent. That's not to say I might

    not be attracted by the prospect of easy money. I'd turn an awful lot of it down to keep my integrity, to be sure.

    But would I be perfect? I don't know. Possibly not. As president, I would try to admit mistakes and make up for

    them whenever possible, to an unprecedented level. I'd be very conscious of the effect that alone might well have

    on history. I'd seek to innovate in being able to exhibit such humility in such a way as to not ruin my ability to

    lead, by being strong and self-assured in my honesty. We badly need a president to do this!

    I think we're all

    corrupt, but I do think its possible to have someone who is basically genuine and well-intentioned in the

    presidency. Basic integrity is important too. Maybe Lincoln, Ford, Ike, Ben Franklin (of course, not a president),

    and Carter were examples. I don't know that much about the history of political corruption, unfortunately. Maybe

    you do. I just know that the point is not whether you can point out some shortcomings of character or bad

    decisions.

    If people would stop focusing on stupid moral rules and just look at basic intentions, integrity, and

    good heartedness, we'd be better off. I also think that it is important to admit our corruption and to seek to

    improve our integrity in all directions and at all depths. That is what I liked about Carter. He at least admitted

    some of his faults with humility. He told a great, humble story about sneaking into the nude circus peep shows as a

    kid. He also admitted to lusting after women in the famous Playboy interview, while he was a sitting

    president.

    Growing up Catholic, studying ethics, and an interest in growth taught me a lot about being a flawed

    human being over the decades. It is possible to have an integrity that goes a little deeper than your lack of

    integrity, if that makes sense. Arrogance or unrepentance about one's corruption would be an obstacle toward

    achieving that deeper integrity. That deeper integrity is achievable for everyone. I'd look for that in a leader,

    and would be willing to forgive a lot of BS for that. Mother Teresa once denied she was good (of course, to her only

    God is good, so it's more of a theological point). That might be taking it a bit too far, since humans can be

    gentle with themselves, but you get the point.

    The main thing I think that would help is to strip the Presidency

    and other political positions of all the fringe bennies of power that are possible to be stripped, to help attract a

    better caliber of person. They should have thought of that when drafting the constitution. Campaign financing needs

    to be reformed also, to very strict standards. It confuses me that we haven't voted something like all that

    in.

    We also need to roll back all the legal power enjoyed by corporations. They have way more rights as

    "artificial persons" than actual real people.

    Then we need to vote the best we can, work to raise consciousness,

    live our integrity, stay in our hearts, support a few things, fight for some things we believe in, and let history

    take its course.
    Last edited by DrSmellThis; 10-10-2005 at 09:45 PM.
    DrSmellThis (creator of P H E R O S)

  23. #53
    Moderator belgareth's Avatar
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    Ah, we've finally hit the core

    of my thoughts...the constitution. While it was a good document for it's time, it could not be expected to be

    completely valid for situations they could not have possibly forseen. In my little fantasy world I see re-writing

    the constitution to take power away fom the government and return it to the people, where it belongs. You mention

    corporations but the instant government loses the power to order our lives so do corporations.

    Take a few

    minutes to think about it. What would you say? Personally, I would turn it into a negative document by listing the

    thousands of things the government is not allowed to do. What are the absolute necessarry funtions of government?

    How would you restrict our government to those functions?

    You know I am not religious so am not constrainted by

    the terms of any religion. Rather, I operate under a set of guidelines that are intended to allow me to live a just

    life in peace. Many of the considerations of religion are sloughed off, IMO, allowing me a better, more rational

    life. But it is also more demanding because I cannot go back to a higher power and ask forgiveness. I have to live

    with the responsibility of my actions.

    That also means the traditional marraige vows mean nothing to me. By my

    understanding religion forbids sexual relationsips outside of wedlock. However, if you do have those relationships

    you can ask for forgiveness and recieve it. Under the terms I live by there is nobody to ask to forgive me. I have

    to deal with myself on it and I am much less forgiving about such things than the christian god is. That doesn't

    give me the right to judge another, only myself.
    Last edited by belgareth; 10-11-2005 at 09:46 AM.
    To compel a man to subsidize with his taxes the propagation of ideas which he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical.

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  24. #54
    Doctor of Scentology DrSmellThis's Avatar
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  25. #55
    & Double Naught Spy InternationalPlayboy's Avatar
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    Thanks for

    that link. I was just lamenting this weekend on how society's manners have gone so far downhill.

  26. #56
    Doctor of Scentology DrSmellThis's Avatar
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    Default Rove and Libby cooperated on Plame leak?

    So let's see if I have this straight: Both Bush's right hand man and Cheney's right hand man appear

    to have cooperated in conspiring then outing a CIA agent, a teasonous act in itself; in an attempt to cover up lying

    to Congress and the American people to start a war, so they could steal Iraq's oil and line the pockets of their

    corporate exec friends; like from Halliburton, where the vice president is a stockholder and still draws a paycheck?



    We know they already knew there were no weapons of mass destruction, since they made up all the intelligence,

    and since every weapons expert said there were no weapons, until they made the weapons inspectors leave Iraq. But

    they were so worried about finding the weapons at any cost -- the ones they told us they knew exactly where they

    were -- that Cheney signed orders that enabled the prisoners to be tortured with dogs and other techniques?

    This

    was at the same time they said they were going to "win the hearts and minds of Iraqis", and that Iraq was going to

    welcome us with roses as liberators? And meanwhile 100,000 Iraqis and 3000 Americans lost their lives so we could

    have all this oil and pay only $3 a gallon for gas?

    They were able to do this because they used 9/11 as their

    "Pearl Harbor", and because Bush was spending his political capital from the presidential election they appear to

    have stolen (according to the Conyers Report)?

    Meanwhile Osama Bin Laden is running free in Pakistan, even though

    we "have a very good idea" where he

    is?

    http://www.cnn.com/2005/PO

    LITICS/10/20/cia.leak.investigation.ap/index.html
    DrSmellThis (creator of P H E R O S)

  27. #57
    Doctor of Scentology DrSmellThis's Avatar
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    Default WHIG: administration group sought to silence war critics

    Last edited by DrSmellThis; 10-20-2005 at 02:55 PM.
    DrSmellThis (creator of P H E R O S)

  28. #58
    Moderator Mtnjim's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrSmellThis
    So let's see if

    I have this straight: Both Bush's right hand man and Cheney's right hand man appear to have cooperated in

    conspiring then outing a CIA agent, a teasonous act in itself; in an attempt to cover up lying to Congress and the

    American people to start a war...
    Yep!! That about sums it up!!
    Freedom begins when you tell Mrs. Grundy to go fly a kite.
    --Lazarus Long

  29. #59
    Doctor of Scentology DrSmellThis's Avatar
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    Default Powell Chief of Staff lambasts Cheney on torture, foreign policy

    This is the highest ranking administration official to speak out yet, I

    think. I can't wait to hear the rest of what he has to

    say.

    http://news.ft.com/cms/s/afdb7b0c-

    40f3-11da-b3f9-00000e2511c8.html
    DrSmellThis (creator of P H E R O S)

  30. #60
    Doctor of Scentology DrSmellThis's Avatar
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    Default Angry reaction proof Bush lied about not knowing of Rove's involvement in leak

    According to this article, it looks like Bush was long ago

    peeved Rove conducted his political hit man duties (his role in the White House Iraq Group) on Ambassador Wilson's

    wife in a sloppy

    manner:

    http://nydailynews.com/front/story/357107p

    -304312c.html
    DrSmellThis (creator of P H E R O S)

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