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  1. #1
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    Default I don't get it...

    visit-red-300x50PNG
    Hi guys,
    I

    have been here for a long time, but never asked this kind of question but here goes:

    I recently met a girl I

    used to meet alot (she had a coffeeshop where I bought my espresso almost daily) and back then we talked quite a

    lot, she sat down with me and took a coffee herself etc.

    She sold the coffeeshop almost a year ago and said

    at that time that we could keep in touch, maybe have lunch etc.. I gave her my number and basically forgot about it

    (since I know that "let's eat lunch" often means "let's *not* eat lunch").

    By pure chance I met her again

    some weeks ago. She was glad to see me and once again said that we should keep in touch. She gave me her

    cellphone-number and actually stood close beside me to make sure I programmed it correct into my mobile.

    I

    said that "I'll sms you later so you get my number".

    I tried to sms her twice some days after that (since I

    saw that my first sms "bounced"), but there was no answer. I called her and got her voicemail.

    So I sms'ed

    her again (and saw that it indeed was delivered) and said that it was easier if she was striaght if she had changed

    her mind about lunch etc. instead of me "chasing her".

    Then I just let it go. 2 sms and 1 call is

    enough...

    But I am confused here. WTH was she so eager giving me her number, but after that just ignoring

    me?

    Anybody?

    // rw

  2. #2
    Moderator belgareth's Avatar
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    There could be any number of

    reasons. I think somehting similar has happened to all of us. I gave up even trying to figure it out. She probably

    has what is a perfectly reasonable explanation in her eyes but you'll probably not ever hear it. Forget it, it

    isn't going to get you anywhere.
    To compel a man to subsidize with his taxes the propagation of ideas which he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical.

    Thomas Jefferson

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    She may just not have had the

    time to get back to you...and you just pulled a George Costanza (a la "The Phone Message") by calling and freaking

    out on her about it. I hate when people do that to me, too, but then I think about times I have done it. Just the

    other week my best friend from HS called me, and I have yet to get back to him. It's not that I don't want to,

    it's just that I had stuff going on and then became sick. As soon as I get better and have time to talk, I'm

    going to call him...

    There's always the off chance that she did want to call but didn't have time...I hope

    that, like the episode of Seinfeld, she finds your panic funny, or else she'll just take you as pushy for being

    hung up on that lunch and never end up calling you.

    Sorry, man. If it's not that, it's what Bel said.

  4. #4
    Relaxed seduceme's Avatar
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    Listen, just cause she's

    eager to give you her phone number DOESNT MEAN SHE WANTS YOU! Some women do enjoy the validation of being 'chased'

    by alot of guys. She set the trap, you fell into it. You shouldnt even have volunteered your phone# by saying

    you'll give her an SMS, keep HER hanging if you'll call her or not. Too validated and she wont be interested in

    you.

  5. #5
    Phero Enthusiast silksand's Avatar
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    I think it's just silly (or

    paranoid ... or gamey) to assume she's playing you - that's what you did when you made the G. Costanza phone call

    (never a good idea!)

    As Bel and Pancho said, all kinds of life situations can intervene between giving the

    number and getting the call. The way you told the story, given that you've had a nice connection with this woman in

    the past, that's the way it reads to me. Better to be a little forgiving and let it go, let folks take their own

    time - it will get you a lot farther in the long run.

    PS:
    If a guy assumes that all women are

    gameplayers, he will inevitably miss out on the great ones who are not!

  6. #6
    Relaxed seduceme's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by silksand
    I think it's

    just silly (or paranoid ... or gamey) to assume she's playing you - that's what you did when you made the G.

    Costanza phone call (never a good idea!)

    As Bel and Pancho said, all kinds of life situations can intervene

    between giving the number and getting the call. The way you told the story, given that you've had a nice connection

    with this woman in the past, that's the way it reads to me. Better to be a little forgiving and let it go, let

    folks take their own time - it will get you a lot farther in the long run.

    PS:
    If a guy assumes that all

    women are gameplayers, he will inevitably miss out on the great ones who are not!

    Youre a female

    right?

  7. #7
    Phero Enthusiast silksand's Avatar
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    Ohhhh, that's right. Please

    excuse me. Females aren't allowed on this thread, are they? It's strictly a male circle-jerk (pun intended)

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    Default

    side notes:
    Let me make

    one thing clear before anything else: Women DONT make the first call. EVER. not even the second call.
    They are not

    mentally trained to pick up your number, go over the phone and ask for you. You know how nervous we feel when we

    wana call some chick we like for the first time. how you dont know what to say and so forth. well, they go through

    this too, but only the realize they dont have to do it. why should they be persuading some guy to come put? Thats

    the guy's job. What if they call adn you reject them... how are they gonna feel then? you see where im going with

    this?

  9. #9
    Moderator belgareth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by silksand
    Ohhhh, that's

    right. Please excuse me. Females aren't allowed on this thread, are they? It's strictly a male circle-jerk (pun

    intended)
    Silksand,

    You are always welcome to an opinion here. Personally, I'd listen to a woman's

    opinion about how women think long before any so called 'pick up artist'. I imagine that there is a huge silent

    majority that don't play all those silly games. I certainly don't and would not waste my time with any woman who

    did. I'm not a pick up artist but have had a number of excellent relationships with some wonderful women, none of

    whom played games with me.

    It all depends on what and who you are seeking.
    To compel a man to subsidize with his taxes the propagation of ideas which he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical.

    Thomas Jefferson

  10. #10
    Relaxed seduceme's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by silksand
    Ohhhh, that's

    right. Please excuse me. Females aren't allowed on this thread, are they? It's strictly a male circle-jerk (pun

    intended)

    Hell yeah why would I otherwise put that smiley at the end of my post? Geeze..

  11. #11
    Phero Enthusiast silksand's Avatar
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    Bel, I know you are not like

    that, nor are the great majority of the men here. I've been very impressed with the quality of posts by most of the

    current regulars (and lots of past regulars, too). This board attracts a lot of kind, perceptive and thoughtful

    people and I appreciate you all.

    My post was intended solely for seduceme and in fact I was just going to

    delete it, feeling that it was pointless. But now alas I've been quoted

    oh well!

    live and

    learn...

  12. #12
    Moderator belgareth's Avatar
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    Silksand,

    I liked your

    reply myself.

    A day or two ago, Wood Elf and a few of her friends were reading some of the advice about women on

    the forum and laughing themselves silly. She didn't want to post anything assuming that anybody would recognize it

    for what it is. A lot of it is pretty bad though, isn't it?
    To compel a man to subsidize with his taxes the propagation of ideas which he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical.

    Thomas Jefferson

  13. #13
    Phero Enthusiast silksand's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by belgareth
    Silksand,



    I liked your reply myself.

    A day or two ago, Wood Elf and a few of her friends were reading some of the

    advice about women on the forum and laughing themselves silly. She didn't want to post anything assuming that

    anybody would recognize it for what it is. A lot of it is pretty bad though, isn't it?
    Well, uh, yes

    Bel ... it is! It is sometimes good for a laugh, and sometimes it's pretty darn close to what I might call "hate

    speech" and I get concerned for the young men who come here looking for "The Teaching," haha. But that will sort

    itself out in time, and I don't think they need protecting - just an alternate voice, and many of us here seem

    willing to give that.

    The ones I really think about are the young women. I wish all 12-year-old girls could

    be required to read the "article" in the current thread called "The Truth About Women" which would effectively

    inoculate them against that type of behavior.

  14. #14
    Moderator belgareth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by silksand
    The ones I

    really think about are the young women. I wish all 12-year-old girls could be required to read the "article" in the

    current thread called "The Truth About Women" which would effectively inoculate them against that type of

    behavior.
    Belgareth reaches for his soapbox, sets it in the middle of the room and climbs up on it...



    If more fathers would take the time to teach their young daughters how they should really be treated, the attitude

    towards women displayed here would be minimized. How are they supposed to understand how a real man is supposed to

    behave other than by example? The father's job as role model has been sorely neglected in our society.
    To compel a man to subsidize with his taxes the propagation of ideas which he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical.

    Thomas Jefferson

  15. #15
    Phero Enthusiast silksand's Avatar
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    Agree wholeheartedly - and it

    goes without saying that their *sons* might not feel so lost around how to behave with women, either.

  16. #16
    Moderator belgareth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by silksand
    Agree

    wholeheartedly - and it goes without saying that their *sons* might not feel so lost around how to behave with

    women, either.
    True. I haven't had to deal with that too much as I have all daughters. It's interesting

    to see the kinds of guys they bring home compared to their friends. Only one has had to be chased away. Did you know

    I collect swords? Great way to convince young men to be respectful to my daughters.
    To compel a man to subsidize with his taxes the propagation of ideas which he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical.

    Thomas Jefferson

  17. #17
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    Ugh... I can't resist. I have

    to respond.

    Are we really positing, on a pheromone board, that the "science of attraction" (where have I heard

    that phrase before), does not have behavioral elements that can be catalogued, and replicated, in order to produce

    similar experiences amongst different people?

    Understand, most "pick up artists" (which I am not), or guys who

    read the "seduction" sites (which I am), are not ONLY looking to "get laid". But, um, yeah - that's a big part of

    it! This is LOVE-scent.com, correct?

    Further, please know that, there is a specific reason most guys want to

    get laid, fast, beyond the mere physical urge. It's a sad, and dreary place that we know as - "the friend zone".

    I'm not sure if there was ever a Seinfeld episode on THAT, but I do know that every guy has experienced it. He's

    head over heels for a girl that diplays all kinds of signs of interest, so, when he tries to escalate things to a

    more sexual level (which is a normal and healthy thing to do in a romantic relationship, yes?), he here's those

    dreaded words - "let's just be friends".

    Right or wrong, it is a part of the modern dating ethos that -

    before you have sex, you're "just friends". After that you're - something different. That could be any number of

    things, but at least there are options - unlike the "friend zone" which, once entered into, there is no escape.



    Silksand, guys have figured out that "I really like you as a friend, I think you're a great friend", when coming

    from a woman they have a romantic interest in, isn't a compliment.

    This goes right to the heart of all the "bad

    seduction advice" - much of it is based on a saying from one of the first guys to quantify behaviorial techniques

    and apply them to seduction - his statement was "I don't care what women want. I only care what they respond to."

    BTW, this isn't a big secret. He said that, on the Oprah show (obviously, promoting his materials.) And no, I

    don't have his materials, LOL.

    Within that statement, there is an implied truth - that the difference between

    what women SAY they want, and what women REALLY want, is different. That's where all the "bad advice" comes from.

    Right there.

    And really, can you blame most men for being confused? How many guys, who are/were genuinely

    honest, nice guys, have "played therapist" to a woman they were romantically interested in, who had a boyfriend who

    treated her like crap, that she complained about all the time? Who said she "only wanted a nice guy", when one was

    sitting right in front of her? Who, when he tried to point that out, got - you guessed it - "let's just be

    friends".

    And they wonder why these guys become bitter?

    Silksand, I'm glad to have you as part of this

    discussion, you're certainly not "unwelcome", on the contrary. But, you've engaged this discussion, so I think

    it's reasonable to ask an honest question of you:

    Have you ever, in your life, allowed a guy who you knew you

    were *not* romantically interested in, to take you out, buy you dinners, gifts, pay for things, spend a somewhat

    signifigant amount of time & money with you, who displayed clear signs of romantic intent? While all the while,

    knowing that your attraction was not mutual? And if so, how did you handle the situation? Were you honest with him

    about it, and at what point? Did you finally breech the discussion, or did he, and after how long?

    I am

    genuinely interested to hear your answer.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by silksand
    I think it's

    just silly (or paranoid ... or gamey) to assume she's playing you - that's what you did when you made the G.

    Costanza phone call (never a good idea!)

    As Bel and Pancho said, all kinds of life situations can intervene

    between giving the number and getting the call. The way you told the story, given that you've had a nice connection

    with this woman in the past, that's the way it reads to me. Better to be a little forgiving and let it go, let

    folks take their own time - it will get you a lot farther in the long run.

    PS:
    If a guy assumes that all women

    are gameplayers, he will inevitably miss out on the great ones who are not!
    I somehow end up with the ones

    who are afraid because too great of a guy came too early in their life plans...

    No, I'm not kidding. I've had

    one girl that wouldn't go out with me because she knew it would be a serious, meaningful relationship and, after

    just being cheated on by her ex, was afraid to get hurt because she knew she would fall in love with me if she did

    (she actually told me this later...when we finally started going out). I have another one (yes, present tense) that

    wouldn't go out with me because she "doesn't get close to people" and she knew I was only too good at cutting the

    crap and getting straight to true feelings...she felt herself getting too attached to me and broke away (she told me

    this, too...while it was happening).

    In other words, I could use a game player...despite the fact that I

    couldn't get one because I don't put up with crap and I refuse to play along. My loss or my gain, depending on

    how you look at it...

    Quote Originally Posted by silksand
    Ohhhh, that's right. Please excuse me. Females aren't allowed on this

    thread, are they? It's strictly a male circle-jerk (pun intended)
    Sorry, SilkSand...we got rid of those a

    long time ago. I almost went blind one time, so Bel put a stop to them. Sure, it's all fun and games 'til

    somebody gets hurt...

    In other words, you're welcome here.

  19. #19
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    D I S R E S P E C T F U L & R U

    D E, dem dar, she is. With the exception of death or sickness, one should never lose sight of those two words.

    Especially when it doesn't cost one Lincoln (penny).

    Do not lose sleep over it, but as the rest of the world

    ... there's always more interest in what we can't/couldn't control/have.

    T'wat vill be

    vill be. Hey, sara, sara?
    Never argue with ignorant people! They pull you down to THEIR level, and then they BEAT YOU with experience. Who said that!? I don't know, but tis gold I tell'ya!!

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by esk6969
    Are we really

    positing, on a pheromone board, that the "science of attraction" (where have I heard that phrase before), does not

    have behavioral elements that can be catalogued, and replicated, in order to produce similar experiences amongst

    different people?

    Understand, most "pick up artists" (which I am not), or guys who read the "seduction" sites

    (which I am), are not ONLY looking to "get laid". But, um, yeah - that's a big part of it! This is LOVE-scent.com,

    correct?
    You are correct, but on this site we try to promote positive viewing of the art of attraction...as

    in bettering yourself so you can get more women (hence the -mones)...not learning to scam women. Every vet on here

    knows that -mones won't have women falling all over him, so we know that you have to have strong attractive

    qualities as well. Therefore, promoting the assumption of these qualities, in which the behaviors should follow,

    seems to be more to our liking than trying to find exactly how to "trick" women into sleeping with you while wearing

    -mones.

    It's a fine line, but you can see it if you look at a vet's posts on this forum compared to the more

    devious "pick-up artist" posts on a seduction site. You're right, though. Not everyone is looking just for more

    sex, and not everyone has a bitter view of the game or the opposite sex. We just try to discourage people from

    learning from the ones who do. Why? Because learning about the qualities that cause the behaviors is more

    fulfilling and successful in the long-term compared to learning the specifics for a "quick fix" or fast lay.

  21. #21
    Moderator belgareth's Avatar
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    For me, there's a simple line

    drawn. I've been the guy who listened to the teary eyed girl complaining about her boyfriend being a jerk and

    hoping I could replace him once. Anybody who makes that mistake twice gets what they deserve. I won't blow her off

    and tell her to go away but I am not going to waste time thinking I am going to get anywhere with her. The same

    applies to the pick up games people play. I'll walk away from any woman who wants to play them. I am not going to

    waste my time and energy dealing with it/them.

    Those of you that know me know I am independent, strong willed

    and sure of myself. I do what I want, when I want to and make no apologies for who and what I am. I don't play

    games but am a considerate gentleman in the way I deal with people. As a result, I have had many fine women who were

    willing to meet me half way and respect me for what I am. Right now, two women live in my house, one wants to marry

    me and the other is kind of a guest who is a part time lover. I think my methods work without wasting all that time

    and energy on games and while showing respect for the women around me. I do not manipulate but will not be

    manipulated either.
    To compel a man to subsidize with his taxes the propagation of ideas which he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical.

    Thomas Jefferson

  22. #22
    Phero Enthusiast silksand's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by esk6969
    Ugh... I can't

    resist. I have to respond.

    Are we really positing, on a pheromone board, that the "science of attraction"

    (where have I heard that phrase before), does not have behavioral elements that can be catalogued, and replicated,

    in order to produce similar experiences amongst different people?
    Of course not! But *empty*

    replication of behaviors makes you ... a replicant! If you ARE an excellent dude with all the shiny behaviors to

    match, the chicks will come (not the player chicks, so if you want one (or multiples) of those, stop reading now).



    Further, please know that, there is a specific reason most guys want to get laid, fast, beyond the

    mere physical urge. It's a sad, and dreary place that we know as - "the friend zone". I'm not sure if there was

    ever a Seinfeld episode on THAT, but I do know that every guy has experienced it. He's head over heels for a girl

    that diplays all kinds of signs of interest, so, when he tries to escalate things to a more sexual level (which is a

    normal and healthy thing to do in a romantic relationship, yes?), he here's those dreaded words - "let's just be

    friends".

    Right or wrong, it is a part of the modern dating ethos that - before you have sex, you're

    "just friends". After that you're - something different. That could be any number of things, but at least there

    are options - unlike the "friend zone" which, once entered into, there is no escape.

    Silksand, guys have

    figured out that "I really like you as a friend, I think you're a great friend", when coming from a woman they have

    a romantic interest in, isn't a compliment.
    You know, the "friend" thing IS a compliment, but if

    you are looking for a lover, it's also a rejection of that quest. Just face it. It's not because you're not doing

    the game right, you're just not doing it for her. She's not interested in you, move on!! Becoming a player is not

    going to get you those girls. Sad but true.

    And really, can you blame most men for being

    confused? How many guys, who are/were genuinely honest, nice guys, have "played therapist" to a woman they were

    romantically interested in, who had a boyfriend who treated her like crap, that she complained about all the time?

    Who said she "only wanted a nice guy", when one was sitting right in front of her? Who, when he tried to point that

    out, got - you guessed it - "let's just be friends".

    And they wonder why these guys become bitter?
    So your implication seems to be that if he's good enough to be her friend, and she says she wants a

    nice guy, she should lay him? Uh, maybe he just doesn't ring her chimes sexually (could be his looks, his smell,

    his personality, any number of things that might not disqualify him as a friend but do put him out of the running as

    a boyfriend).


    Silksand, I'm glad to have you as part of this discussion, you're certainly not

    "unwelcome", on the contrary. But, you've engaged this discussion, so I think it's reasonable to ask an honest

    question of you:

    Have you ever, in your life, allowed a guy who you knew you were *not* romantically

    interested in, to take you out, buy you dinners, gifts, pay for things, spend a somewhat signifigant amount of time

    & money with you, who displayed clear signs of romantic intent? While all the while, knowing that your attraction

    was not mutual? And if so, how did you handle the situation? Were you honest with him about it, and at what point?

    Did you finally breech the discussion, or did he, and after how long?

    I am genuinely interested to hear

    your answer.
    This is going to really disappoint you, but no. There is only one story that even

    approaches this topic: One time when I was a freshman in college, and this geeky redhaired guy, very smart, very

    funny, I really liked him, asked me to go with him to a (free) movie. I was really happy, hoping to have a friend in

    him. Then we went back to his room and he got me extremely high (I'd never smoked anything in my life before that)

    and made some rather sudden moves. Much more than I had in my mind with him. I was not attracted to him and did not

    see this as a "date." At that point, in my Thai stick haze, I made it clear that I was very interested in friendship

    with him, but he apparently wasn't because I never heard from him again, and that's cool. He wanted a lover and I

    wasn't it; c'est la vie.

    I don't tend to let men spend money on me in excess of what I spend on them. I

    prefer to keep the power shared, and nobody owes anybody anything. I certainly don't lead anyone on, what for? If

    someone makes it clear they have romantic intentions that I don't share, I find it very uncomfortable to perpetuate

    the situation and move very quickly to clear it up. Otherwise people get more hurt than they would otherwise

    be.

    I have several times been seriously involved with 2 people at once, and staying emotionally clean (i.e.,

    taking care of everybody's feelings and all the time & communication involved) in that kind of arena takes way more

    energy than I care to give it anymore. At that point, it becomes almost a profession.

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    Quote Originally Posted by belgareth
    Those of you

    that know me know I am independent, strong willed and sure of myself. I do what I want, when I want to and make no

    apologies for who and what I am.
    Fascinating that you should say that, Bel. The "guru" I mentioned

    above, from the Oprah show, has a core saying in his teaching of his techniques. BTW, his name is Ross Jeffries,

    and he teaches the "Speed Seduction" system, which was really the first system to apply NLP techniques to romantic

    interactions (for anyone interested). FYI, much of his stuff is regarded as cheesy, and out of date.

    Anyway,

    the core attitude that Jeffries teaches is:

    "I make no excuses for myself, or my desires as a man. I move

    through the world without apology."

    Perhaps there are semantic differences between that and what's written

    above, but to me, not much.

    Quote Originally Posted by belgareth
    I don't play games but am a considerate gentleman in the way I

    deal with people.
    Doing well with women, and being a gentleman, are not mutually exclusive. In fact, to

    me, the two are part & parcel of one another. This is a point I frequently make when posting on those "other

    sites".

    Quote Originally Posted by belgareth
    Right now, two women live in my house, one wants to marry me and the other is kind

    of a guest who is a part time lover. I think my methods work without wasting all that time and energy on games...
    HAHAHAHA!!! This is hilarious! I bow before the master! Seriously! What 'mones were you wearing

    again, LOL.....

    Bel, that's great. But I've got news - you are, what the guys on the seduction sites refer to

    as "a natural". You are one of those guys who is "just good" with women by "just being yourself". Naturals, almost

    invariably, assume then that just "being yourself" is the best advice they can give. But face it - most guys, left

    to their own devices, are DORKS. Not many of us can work into a situation where we live with two women in the SAME

    house, and are romantically involved with both, and neither one scratches the other's eyes out. Almost every man,

    if he could do that on his own, would. I respect that your attitude and mindframe get you what you want out of life

    - but a lot of guys, most guys, need a little extra help with this sort of stuff.



    Quote Originally Posted by belgareth


    For me, there's a simple line drawn. I've been the guy who listened to the teary eyed girl complaining about her

    boyfriend being a jerk and hoping I could replace him once. Anybody who makes that mistake twice gets what they

    deserve.
    Glad you only dealt with it once. Used to be the story of my life, until I learned better. Some

    of us are slower learners.

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    Quote Originally Posted by silksand
    Now, the

    "friend" thing IS a compliment, but if you are looking for a lover, it's also a rejection of that quest. Just face

    it. It's not because you're not doing the game right, you're just not doing it for her. She's not interested in

    you, move on!! Becoming a player is not going to get you those girls. Sad but

    true.
    WRONG!!
    Im the living example of the contradiction to that fact.
    Not that I

    would call me a player, but if you mean that altering your behavior and calibrating to a specific girl who just

    wants to be friends and getting her to think otherwise of you then yes Im the living example of _that_. Its not

    rocketscience but it does require effort and a will to learn and apply to real life circumstances.






    This is going to really disappoint you, but no. There is only one story that even

    approaches this topic: One time when I was a freshman in college, and this geeky redhaired guy, very smart, very

    funny, I really liked him, asked me to go with him to a (free) movie. I was really happy, hoping to have a friend in

    him. Then we went back to his room and he got me extremely high (I'd never smoked anything in my life before that)

    and made some rather sudden moves. Much more than I had in my mind with him. I was not attracted to him and did not

    see this as a "date." At that point, in my Thai stick haze, I made it clear that I was very interested in friendship

    with him, but he apparently wasn't because I never heard from him again, and that's cool. He wanted a lover and I

    wasn't it; c'est la vie.
    Correction, he wanted _YOU_ as a lover, not just a lover.

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    Quote Originally Posted by esk6969
    Fascinating that

    you should say that, Bel. The "guru" I mentioned above, from the Oprah show, has a core saying in his teaching of

    his techniques. BTW, his name is Ross Jeffries, and he teaches the "Speed Seduction" system, which was really the

    first system to apply NLP techniques to romantic interactions (for anyone interested). FYI, much of his stuff is

    regarded as cheesy, and out of date.
    In my case in comes from another philosophy that has nothing to do with

    women other than the fact that they are a part of the human race. The unfortunate part is that it is uniquely mine

    with no direct reference to any particular teaching.


    Quote Originally Posted by esk6969
    Doing well with women, and being a

    gentleman, are not mutually exclusive. In fact, to me, the two are part & parcel of one another. This is a point I

    frequently make when posting on those "other sites"..
    No disagreement. However, some of the posts in this and

    other threads seem to say "Be an asshole and you'll get laid more often." It may be true but isn't how I choose to

    live.

    Quote Originally Posted by esk6969
    HAHAHAHA!!! This is hilarious! I bow before the master! Seriously! What 'mones

    were you wearing again, LOL.....

    Bel, that's great. But I've got news - you are, what the guys on the

    seduction sites refer to as "a natural". You are one of those guys who is "just good" with women by "just being

    yourself". Naturals, almost invariably, assume then that just "being yourself" is the best advice they can give. But

    face it - most guys, left to their own devices, are DORKS. Not many of us can work into a situation where we live

    with two women in the SAME house, and are romantically involved with both, and neither one scratches the other's

    eyes out. Almost every man, if he could do that on his own, would. I respect that your attitude and mindframe get

    you what you want out of life - but a lot of guys, most guys, need a little extra help with this sort of stuff.
    Here I'll disagree. If I'm a natural it's a trained natural. My attitudes are mine because I learned them

    someplace, mostly the school of hard knocks. I have a large flat spot in the center of my forehead from beating it

    against the wall. If they are dorks, that's because of what they have learned to be. They need to learn

    something new. Now refer back to what I said about assholes above. I am saying that there are good and in my opinion

    better, more sustainable alternatives than the "how to live like a jerk in three easy lessons" approach that I see

    posted so often lately. It isn't just being yourself, it's learning to be the best you can be and being proud of

    what you are. It is also something you never master but can only keep trying to do.

    Frankly, two women in one

    house wasn't my idea and can be more than a little uncomfortable at times. The saving grace is that they are good

    friends and seem to deal with it much better than I do.


    Quote Originally Posted by esk6969
    Glad you only dealt with it once.

    Used to be the story of my life, until I learned better. Some of us are slower learners.
    Sorry to hear that.

    I try to make the same mistake as seldom as possible. Doesn't mean I don't make the same mistake just that I try

    hard to learn from my own stupidity, which I have in abundance.
    To compel a man to subsidize with his taxes the propagation of ideas which he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical.

    Thomas Jefferson

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    Quote Originally Posted by silksand
    Of course not!

    But *empty* replication of behaviors makes you ... a replicant!
    Agreed. Actually, you might want to

    check out some of the seduction sites, rather than that goofy "truth about women" thread. What kicked that thread

    off was an advertisement. That's marketing, not seduction. Wait, what was the difference again?



    Anyway, if you check out the sites, you'll see that there is a LOT of discussion about "inner game", vs. "outer

    game". Endless debates rage on about which is more important, and whether one leads to the other. As if the 2 are

    mutually exclusive.

    They aren't. Becoming a REAL "PUA", (Pickup Artist) is all about attitude and mindset, not

    replicating techniques. The more experienced guys on any of those sites will be the first to tell you that.

    Although, a lot of guys *do* tend to do exactly what you describe above - they read about certain behaviors and

    techniques, go out and apply them with no internal congruence, and then wonder why they aren't successful.




    Quote Originally Posted by silksand
    You know, the "friend" thing IS a compliment, but if you are looking for a lover, it's also a

    rejection...
    So it's both a compliment, as well as a rejection? LOL, I mean this in a very good-natured

    way, if we were having this discussion around a table with friends over beers, I would elbow nudge you right now -

    but I'm sorry, that is classic "chick logic".

    Quote Originally Posted by silksand
    So your implication seems to be that if he's

    good enough to be her friend, and she says she wants a nice guy, she should lay him? ...
    No. My

    implication is that she should DATE him, instead of sitting there complaining she "just wants a nice guy", when one

    is sitting in front of her, and by her own admission, her current boyfriend is a jerk. She will lay him after he

    applies seduction techniques (lol, couldn't resist..... )

    Quote Originally Posted by silksand
    This is going to really

    disappoint you, but no....
    Why would I be disappointed with that? Do you really believe that I thought

    you'd come back and go "why yes, I use men to buy me things and cocktease them all the time! Looks like ya got me,

    esk!" And, what makes you think I'm done yet?


    Quote Originally Posted by silksand
    I don't tend to let men spend money

    on me in excess of what I spend on them.
    Good for you. Now the next part of my question: In your

    experience - women you either know, or know of... would you say the same applies? I.E., they do "not let men spend

    time or money with them" in excess of what they themselves also spend? And, while doing (or not doing) so, would

    you say that most of them are also as clear and up front about their romantic/non-romantic intentions as you?

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    Quote Originally Posted by belgareth
    In my case in

    comes from another philosophy that has nothing to do with women other than the fact that they are a part of the

    human race. The unfortunate part is that it is uniquely mine with no direct reference to any particular teaching.
    Whoa, let's be clear, I didn't mean to imply that you got your attitude from any place other than your

    own experience. In fact, I was attempting to use that to point out how, it was ironic that the seduction materials

    mirror a conclusion that YOU reached on your own, not the other way around. But I can see from my post how that

    might have been taken differently. Sorry if there was any misunderstanding.

    You're missing out on an untapped

    market niche, Bel. "How I Live With Two Hot Women, WITHOUT Being a Jerk!" Good title, huh? Admit it, you're

    thinking about it maybe just a little..... Let me know when I can buy my copy....

  28. #28
    Moderator belgareth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by esk6969
    Whoa, let's be

    clear, I didn't mean to imply that you got your attitude from any place other than your own experience. In fact, I

    was attempting to use that to point out how, it was ironic that the seduction materials mirror a conclusion that YOU

    reached on your own, not the other way around. But I can see from my post how that might have been taken

    differently. Sorry if there was any misunderstanding.

    You're missing out on an untapped market niche, Bel. "How

    I Live With Two Hot Women, WITHOUT Being a Jerk!" Good title, huh? Admit it, you're thinking about it maybe just a

    little..... Let me know when I can buy my copy....
    Couldn't write a book about it. It's too

    simple...when all else fails DUCK AND COVER!

    Seriously, this is my home and I have firm opinions about the way

    people act in my home and very few options if they don't want to accept my rules. My rules stick because they know

    me well enough to know I will not live with anybody under any conditions but fairness and courtesy to one another.

    But, like I said, it was not my idea. They had to do some serious talking to convince me and the other lady's

    situation was the deciding factor, not the potential for a second lover. That jus evolved.
    To compel a man to subsidize with his taxes the propagation of ideas which he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical.

    Thomas Jefferson

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    Look it is quite simple. Men

    are programmed by evolution to be attracted to certain things like youthfulness, symmetry, certain hip to waist

    ratio etc.

    Women are programmed to be attracted to symmetry as well, but the big difference is that they are

    more attracted to personality traits then what men are. The personality traits that attract women are often

    indicators of high status. Dominance, humour, confidence, not supplicating etc. So the process of being attracted to

    someone works differently for men and women. There is no more “trickery” or deception for men to study seduction

    then it for women to spend and hour or more each day working on their appearance.

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by esk6969
    They

    aren't. Becoming a REAL "PUA", (Pickup Artist) is all about attitude and mindset, not replicating techniques. The

    more experienced guys on any of those sites will be the first to tell you that. Although, a lot of guys *do* tend

    to do exactly what you describe above - they read about certain behaviors and techniques, go out and apply them with

    no internal congruence, and then wonder why they aren't successful.
    Actually I have checked fast

    seduction and open seduction. Not much for me there, frankly. That's just not a world I live in.




    So it's both a compliment, as well as a rejection?
    Okay, let me ask you - has a

    girl ever expressed (in whatever indirect way) that she wants you, and you've had to tell her that to you, she is a

    friend and not a girlfriend? Was it painful for you to do? Did you avoid the "friend" part because that's such a

    bad thing to say to someone? When I truly care about someone as a friend, I think that's worth mentioning, don't

    you? I have been on the receiving end of this one myself - the first time I fell in love in my life, in fact, was

    with a friend in college, and he did not feel the same way. But we remained good friends and I have no regrets about

    any of it.


    My implication is that she should DATE him, instead of sitting there complaining

    she "just wants a nice guy", when one is sitting in front of her, and by her own admission, her current boyfriend is

    a jerk. She will lay him after he applies seduction techniques (lol, couldn't resist..... )
    Oh, so she SHOULD let him spend money on her, lead him on, even though at this point she does not

    see him as a potential partner? Not consistent! If she thinks he's a possible-maybe contender, she's not going to

    use the "friend" line. If she doesn't think he is, does he still want to take her out?


    Why

    would I be disappointed with that?
    Simply because it's boring.


    Now the

    next part of my question: In your experience - women you either know, or know of... would you say the same applies?

    I.E., they do "not let men spend time or money with them" in excess of what they themselves also spend? And, while

    doing (or not doing) so, would you say that most of them are also as clear and up front about their

    romantic/non-romantic intentions as you?
    Well gosh, I know OF thousands of women. Some of them are

    undoubtedly users and guilty of the crap that ALL of us are being smeared with. There are still lots of

    "traditional" ladies out there who like it the way it's always been, and think they have to "work it" to get

    theirs. They're easy to find.

    Of the women I know well, a few are like that. Of the women I'm close to,

    none are like that. People who are that dishonest in romantic relationships give me the willies - men and women

    both.

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