to clarify, the term 'nice
guy' used in the context i was referring to refer to the negative qualities of being too nice and thus what coined
the phrase "nice guys finish last". Im not saying being nice wont get you women, what im saying is, if you are able
to attract a lot of women and yet youre still a very nice guy, then you basically bagged the positives of being nice
without the negatives and thus being nice becomes lost in translation and thus combined with all of your other
positive attributes to make you attractive and women will never refer to you as a nice guy even though you maybe
nice. So what im saying is, essentially, youve accomplished mutating the "nice guy" qualities into something that
allows you to attract women. However, the blurry boundary of where being a nice guy becomes a bad thing is when you
become described as a nice guy. In society, generally speaking, women will never describe the men they are attracted
to as nice, even if they are nice, they will be described in another manner. Ive noticed that women who use the
phrase "nice guy" to describe a guy usually are not attracted to that guy. Thus, the phrase nice guy i think is
unconsciously being associated in that negative manner.
2 types of nice guy
Those
that are excessively nice - whimps, walkovers, put up with a lot of female cr@p
Then you have guys that are
"nice" in a respectful way to women but dont put up with a lot of their crap - youre straightforward with them -
dont play most of hteir games unless you have a reason to. Etc you can still be respectful without being a
walkover.
Those same people have been called "nice guys" their wholeOriginally Posted by satyrboy
lives. I've been called a "nice guy" my whole life, so I think I know what the hell I'm talking about. This
difference in definition is why women say they want "nice guys" but never seem to get them. The reason: women are
saying they want nice guys according to Wood Elf's definition, but the people they actually call nice guys
fit my definition. That's why guys say women are liars...because they see the men that women call nice guys (my
definition), act like them, get called nice guys, and are never successful with women because the definitions
aren't the same.
I've seen this trend on personals sites. Women are catching on to the fact that the
definitions differ. How so? I've seen the new types of personal ads: "I want a nice guy...but he has to be
self-confident and assertive." In other words, they are finally beginning to realize that the guys they call nice
guys are not what they want...because every guy who has been called a "nice guy" his whole life fits the
description in NMMNG.
So, I'll say it again for emphasis...people should quit using the term "nice guy" to mean
a desirable man. It's taken on a life of its own to mean exactly the kind of guy that is not desirable: a guy who
will do anything to please and therefore nice to everyone thinking that will make him happy in life.
Just like a
person can be a "girl" and a "friend" and not be a "girlfriend", a person can be "nice" and a "guy" but not a "nice
guy"...a girl that's a friend is not necessarily a girlfriend, and a guy that's nice is not necessarily a nice
guy...
That's why nice guys finish last. They're not talking about men who are nice; they're talking about
the very same people satyrboy calls "homo invertebrus". You can laugh and say, "That's not what a nice guy is," but
maybe you're just learning for the first time what it actually means [to people].
Case in
Point
http://pherolibrary.com/forum/showthread.ph
p?t=13521
Last edited by Pancho1188; 04-02-2005 at 08:23 AM. Reason: Added Case Study; changed "women should quit using the term 'nice guy'..." to refer to all people
Pancho, the above chart should be required for all men who wish to date, and have success with women. You've
summed it up perfectly.
Pancho,
You have the
differentation correct, I think. But you seem to be trying to back into the solution. Most women seem to understand
the difference, maybe it's instinctual. As demonstrated by Sayrboy, Gegogi and myself, some men already understand
the term and most probably could learn what it means. Let's follow the easiest path and teach young men the
difference. Do you really believe you can get the female half of this world to change what they seem to think works?
That sounds like an exercise in futility to me.
To compel a man to subsidize with his taxes the propagation of ideas which he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical.
Thomas Jefferson
Pancho,
You have the differentation correct, I think. But you seem to be trying to back into the solution. Most women seem
to understand the difference, maybe it's instinctual. As demonstrated by Sayrboy, Gegogi and myself, some men
already understand the term and most probably could learn what it means. Let's follow the easiest path and teach
young men the difference. Do you really believe you can get the female half of this world to change what they seem
to think works? That sounds like an exercise in futility to me.You're absolutely right.
That's why I used the term "Real Man". Why? Women already use it... "I want a real man." That's what they
want, alright...I'm just trying to prevent millions of fights every year between girls that say they
want nice guys and the guys that are the shoulder they cry on saying, "...but I'm a nice guy. If I'm what you say
you want, why won't you go out with me?" In other words, I'm doing a public service!
So you're
saying to teach men the difference instead of teaching women? Well, maybe we can just teach everyone at the same
time. I recant my erroneous comment that implied to only educate women.
The guys who whine "but I'm a
nice guy" usually aren't. What is their reasoning? "Gee, I'll be nice to her and that will get me laid, heheheh!"
Not really admirable. Could it be that at some deep down level women recognize that and are repulsed? At least the
jackass has the inherent honesty of admitting he wants to get laid and that's why he is acting so. The us against
them they display is still bad but has some merit in honesty.
To compel a man to subsidize with his taxes the propagation of ideas which he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical.
Thomas Jefferson
It doesnt work when you're obviously trying to
manipulate the outcome
People are so damn excessively complicated in the first place, men and
women... there were time when I was going nuts over a girl that I wanted to, well, jeeez, come to think of it I
wasn't exactly clear in my mind what I wanted, mindless sex, meaningful association, walking around looking at
consumer products ? Emotions would blow hot and cold, the next day the idea of hooking up with her didn't register
a 1 on my Richter scale... maybe we could smoke a joint or eat a couple of mushrooms and have more profound mindless
sex, and that could be kinda cool too even if we found ourselves both confused about where this thing was headed, or
the self protecting anti-grav field goes up and out of nowhere we absolutely cannot, cannot have a discussion about
anything,
or on the other hand she's 1000% into me and I'm 50% into her or I'm 1000% into her and she's 50%
into me, then as I get to know her better I'm 60% into her and she's 75% into me.... was she ovulating that night
at the Blind Tiger and recently broke up with her last boyfriend and needs to blow out the memory of him with a
couple of nights with crazy sex but she wants to watch Extreme Makeovers all them time which I couldn't care less
about or she talks to her mom 3 times a day on her cell wherever the hell she happens to be when I want to watch
Hitler and Stalin on the History Channel or I try diplomatically to her that she need to, uhh, you know, without me
feeling her teeth and maybe I could buy her some, ahhh, instructional videos and she brings it to my attention that
I have a bad habit or three that could use some attention.....
I get a feeling much of what I'm
seeing here is a matter of semantics. We're not all working with the same dictionary or some published reference
(the authors of which may have put their own spin or interpretation on a term). Many of us use terms we've picked
up from our own local circles of friends/contacts/etc. and they could well differ from one place or group to
another.
Pancho188's author may be using the term "nice guy" in a negative light (and perhaps for the sake of
his book), while wood elf and Gegogi may personally see the term in a more positive light because that's the way
*they've* always used it. Similar: some people I know have used the term "jock" in a complimentary way, while
others consider it an insult.
Personally when I think of someone being a "nice guy" I follow wood elf's and
Gegogi's thoughts. I suppose if I had ever read No More Mr. Nice Guy I would be aware of the alternate useage of
the term based on the listed criterea in Pancho's post (which I'd also tend to call "spinless wuss/coward" like
Geogi said).
Please be aware I'm not dissing any of you. Just pointing out that everyone's "pool of
references" can be different. Terminology can differ, and can cause no end to confusion. I've been in many a
situation where arguments clear up or at least ease after someone has the wisdom to clarify the participant's
definitions and settles on shared/common meanings (at least common to the participants at that time and place).
Maybe we need to step back a moment and do that here.
(Uh oh, maybe I'm being too much of a Nice Guy...)
Last edited by Rbt; 04-02-2005 at 03:18 PM. Reason: correct typos and add a smilie...
RBT you are a nice guy and a
diplomat. But, yes, I think you are 100% correct. We're all fairly close in terms of underlying principles, but the
labels are messed up. I prefer a dictionary for my definitions and reject attempts by subcultures--youth, ethnic
groups, fuckenfast.com, whatever--to redefine common words and phrases. Remember a couple decades ago when Black
folks used "bad" to mean good? How about substance abuse? The universe is full of substances. Call them a drunk or a
drug addict! Communication is difficult enough without needless confusion. A spade should be called a spade, and a
spinless coward should be called a spinless coward, not a nice guy!
<nodding in agreement>
Nicely put.
I can barely
stomach the liberties taken with language these days.
If a guy's a cocksucker in his life, when he dies, he don't become a saint. - Morris Levy, Hitmen
Holmes' Theme Song
<Emphatically nodding head>
Agreed! I feel the same as you two.
To compel a man to subsidize with his taxes the propagation of ideas which he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical.
Thomas Jefferson
For the sake of the discussion,
here is something that DeAngelo has to say on the topic of the "nice" guy. Some of you might find it interesting.
I have a lot of guys write me to say "I know this
girl who's beautiful and smart and attractive. She
and I
are great friends, we have everything in common,
and we get along perfectly... but she says that she's
just not
attracted to me..."
Have you ever noticed that:
1) The most attractive and interesting women seem
to be
attracted to men who don't treat them very well?
2) That the "nicer" you are to a woman the more she
often
seems to act like "just a friend" to you?
What's going on here? Didn't mom say to be "nice"
to girls?
Here's the deal: Women aren't usually romantically
attracted to "nice" guys. Women are attracted to men
who
are funny, confident, and mysterious. Good looks
don't hurt, but if you're not 6'4" tall and model-handsome,
then you have to learn how to attract women with your
personality.
And being "nice" isn't going to do it
for you.
Awhile back, I mentioned an interesting book that
was written about the band "Motley Crue".
Remember
those guys?
Well, the book is called "The Dirt: Confessions
of the Worlds Most Notorious Rock
Band." As I read
through that book, I realized that these guys have
dated more of the world's most attractive
women than
anyone (except maybe Hugh Hefner).
In case you didn't know, the guys in Motley Crue
are not
very "nice". They're famous for taking every
drug known to man, beating their women, fighting, and
having a lot
of people die around them.
Now, the first thing most guys say is "Yea, but
they're rich and famous..."
And this is true, they are rich and famous. But,
and it's a BIG ONE... all of the women that they have
dated,
married, and beaten up are ALSO RICH AND FAMOUS
TOO!
These are supermodels and playmates of the year
and
such. These women can date whoever they want.
Tommy Lee was MARRIED to both Heather Locklear AND
Pamela
Anderson... remember?
These women didn't need Tommy Lee for his money
or his fame... they're dating these
guys for some
OTHER REASON!
Are you with me on this?
So what's going on here? And more importantly,
how can you use this information to be more successful
with women and dating?
First of all, don't go out
and start taking drugs
and beating up your dates. I mean, I know that an
occasional woman will drive a man to
drink, but I don't
recommend going "Motley Crue" on a girl... lol.
The first chapter of my book "Double
Your Dating"
is called "Women Don't Make Sense". Here's what I
mean...
I believe:
1) Women make
decisions very, very quickly about whether
a man is going to be "just a friend" or if he has
romantic potential,
and once her decision is made,
it's probably going to stay made.
2) These decisions are made "unconsciously",
meaning
that women make all of them quickly and at a "gut
level".
3) If you know how, you make her feel
attraction feelings
rather than "friend" feelings.
4) The way to do it is to stop acting "nice" and start
acting, well... something else... and I don't mean
"not nice".
So what DOES attract women? And how do you
do it
exactly?
Good questions...
At the beginning, I mentioned three qualities:
Funny, Confident, and
Mysterious.
Before I talk about each, I first have to remind
you that WOMEN DON'T USUALLY MAKE SENSE.
Remember
that.
Here's a good metaphor: Remember when you learned
to drive? It all made sense... turn the
wheel left
and go left, turn it right and go right...
But do you remember when you learned to back
up?
Backing up is a whole new game. Everything that used
to work now works in a different way. At first you
feel disoriented. Turn the wheel left and go right...
and you have to learn how to maneuver with the back
wheels staying straight while the front wheels turn...
all with your head turned around.
For most
people, this takes some time and practice.
But once you "get it" then you can do it anytime you
want.
Well,
women are very similar. At first it's very
confusing. You have to try things that don't seem
to make sense. But
once you get the hang of it, then
you see how it works and can make it work... just
like backing up a car.
As much as many women would hate to admit it, there's
something very attractive about a man who is just a
little
more confident than he should be. And if you
combine this with the right amount of humor, you have
a magic
combination that will charm almost any woman.
Here are a few ways to use this idea:
1) When you first meet
a woman, tease her about something.
It doesn't matter what it is, as long as you do it early on.
For instance,
you might say: "So what's with the big
purse? Are you carrying a gun in there?" or maybe "Those
are some pretty
tall shoes, what are you like 4' tall
without them?" If you tease a woman, it shows that
you're not
intimidated by her, and that you have a fun
sense of humor. Key: Make sure you say something FUNNY.
If you
don't know how to be funny, get a book on it.
The test: If she's not laughing, then it wasn't funny!
2) Look
around at other things and seem kind of pre-occupied
when you first start talking to her. Make your funny
remarks with a carefree, detached tone. You want to
sound like you're talking to your best friend. Attractive
women are approached all the time. It's not attractive
to a woman when you look like you've just met Madonna.
This "just a little too confident" attitude is very
attractive to women... especially when it's combined
with
humor.
3) Don't answer her questions directly. Women love
to ask questions like: "What do you do?" and "Where
do you live?" and "Tell me about your family". Answer
with funny answers, and don't give her what she wants.
Most guys say "Oh, I'm an engineer" or "I'm a stock
broker". BORING,BORING. If she asks what you do, say
"Oh, funny you should ask. I'm a Calvin Klein Underwear
Model... What do you do?..." (This is especially funny
if it's OBVIOUS that you are NOT a model) Do you get
it? Keep it up and keep her laughing.
It's important
to remember that I'm not telling
you to be mean, or to be a jerk to women. I'm telling
you to start being
confident, funny, and mysterious.
Don't
be hatin', dawg! You just jealous of the pimp juice I got from my bling bling and all the sweet action I get from
the shawties in the hizzle fishizzle...
That said, it's not a made-up term or anything. It's not a result
of popular culture or the author of the book. The term "nice guys finish last" didn't just come out of nowhere.
If nice guys really meant what Gegogi, Wood Elf, and others say (and I agree that it's true that a nice guy can be
just that, but when talking about the people it's actually used to describe, a nice guy is a guy who tries to
please everyone), then that phrase wouldn't have become common words of wisdom (How old is that, anyway? It's not
like it was just made yesterday...). The fact is that people started it as soon as they call people "nice guys" and
at the same time had these guys wonder why they couldn't get women. After all, everyone calls them "nice guys",
and women say they want nice guys. It's not fair that now you know the problems with these guys to call them
cowards and say it's stupid to call them nice guys. Why? Because most people walking around don't know that
these people are like that, and---guess what---they call them nice guys...I didn't make up the term...the
guy who wrote that book didn't make it up...it's just what everyone calls them. I'm sure the first words that
come out of a person's mouth when asked to describe Bel, G, etc. would not be "He's a nice guy." It would
probably be, "He's a strong-willed, assertive person who's kind to others......." you get my drift. However, if
someone tried to describe any of the people the book describes, and I use myself as an example because it has
happened countless times, it's, "He's a nice guy." For example, when you get into those mushy moments where you
say how great everybody is and go on and on about all the fun times you had, I would be the guy you'd go to and
say, "And Pancho...you're just such a nice guy!" I've never had anyone call me a spineless coward...although
maybe that's what I am.
The author just asked himself, "Why aren't these guys satisfied and why don't
women like these guys when everyone calls them nice guys?" Everyone called him a nice guy, too. He found the
reasons, then he wrote them down. Then he found out they were really passive-aggressive men who have been trained
their whole lives to disown their masculinity, and so he wrote a book about it.
Oh, the hell with it. No one
who takes the words "nice" and "guy" at face value rather than actual usage in social relationships is going to just
go, "Well, Pancho, you're right." Don't take my word for it. Watch the movie The Mask (although I'm sure
many have already seen it). It's a movie about---whodathunkit---a "nice guy" who actually writes an article called
"Nice Guys Finish Last" in the movie. He won't stand up for himself to his boss, he won't do anything to advance
his life in any way, but he's a hell of a nice guy (and I believe people tell him that in the movie). He then
finds the mask and becomes a "jerk". Then, he finds out that he doesn't need the mask to become a real man, and
*poof* he makes the transition from "nice guy" to "jerk" to "real man" all in one movie. Hell, whoever wrote that
script was a genius regarding the male psyche. I'm not sure how many times the term "spineless coward" was used to
describe him, but you probably got that feeling while following him through his daily life.
i come from a family with cousins and sisters that are 8, 9's and same for
their friends. i personally know what they do to nice guys. last year my cousin said yeah to this guy to for the
prom and he paid for everything only for her to tell him she's busy. just for entertainment value. i was standing
in line to get into a bar with some friends a few days ago. and one of my friends, a 9.5, did a "why are you talking
to me" because some cook from the bar came out and tried to talk to her.
the seduction community is geared
towards the 8s, 9s, and 10s. so the information you get is skewed towards the supermodel in vip. you need social
intelligence. the game playing doesn't have to be as hard on a 7 or so.
it's not about being a complete jerk
either though. i do alot of nice guy things. i would say it's a combination of both is the ideal person.
You still make the mistake in
defining the nice guy as a pushover. They aren't nice guys, they are wimps. But any woman who would pull a stunt
like that clearly is a bitch. That's disgusting.
To compel a man to subsidize with his taxes the propagation of ideas which he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical.
Thomas Jefferson
That was my first thought. Who
needs it?
If a guy's a cocksucker in his life, when he dies, he don't become a saint. - Morris Levy, Hitmen
Holmes' Theme Song
Yeah, I would plot revenge. There would have to be a way to embarrass that
woman in front of the whole school or something...
...so much for me being a nice guy...
...enter
Russell Crowe: "On my signal, unleash hell."
...or I'd just cry after dropping so much money and then
get over it...
Try this
__________________________________________________ _______________
Calling
someone to have lunch once or sending sombody your number because a person stated they would is hardly falling into
any type of trap.
If that is the case I guess nobody could ever go ahead and make the first move right? So
there should really be nobody ever calling anyone in fear of falling into the "trap".
Now if he called her
again three days in a row that might look a little desperate on his part.
You did the right thing. You were
a man and did what you said you were gonna do. Women do this fucking thing ALL the time and it is really imature. I
would say give it a week and try her cell phone again and don't mention you called her and didn't recieve a
response. Be casual about it.
Happy
YO! Some people are ASSHOLES!!!!!
The downside of being physically attractive, unusually physically attractive, or double trouble, rich and unsually
physically attractive is that the world cuts them slack... look, this sucks, but pretty people get away with
behaviors that average people don't. It isn't fair, that's how it works though. The flip side of this is that the
beautiful people don't get tested every day they way the ugli people do. Non-beautifuls have to work harder, put on
some serious coping skills muscle, learn to deal with rejection, know what it means to empathize. Beautifuls have to
cope with another load of shit... I know from this one having been in a relationship with an extremely beautiful...
traffic stopping beautiful woman, gen-u-wine supermodel grade girl... guys lose their self control, they get
celebrity nutty, it's like temporary madness, this fantasy object of their dreams right before their eyes, all
their resentments and hungers and strange stuff that went on during their potty training phase, and all the babes
that rejected them and all the playboy centerfolds, every wet dream and lonely boner swirling around in their
skulls, other women get vengefully spiteful, step on their toes, deliberately crash into them, do anything to take
them down a notch, writhing in their non-supermodel less-fuckable maybe green card but not platinum card seething
envy...
Beauty is a weird place, it sets you above and everybody seems to be gunning for you at the same time.
Think of what the women are enduring, every "funny and cocky" shithead lout slobbering over her with lines she's
heard maybe 2000 times before, creepy older guys affecting sublime sugar daddy attitudes...
It's perverse,
isn't it... you have the opportunity to see the human race at its most needful, egotistic, hormone revved, not to
speak of radically selfish, your perfect flesh will make me whole, Omigod baby your glorious tits your perfect skin
the soft blond down hair on your exquisite taut but rounded belly will flush away my imperfection yes goddess take
me in your hand like a lump of coal and crush me into a diamond be the ty-d-bol blue cleansing liquid in the foul
toilet of my existence... yes, baby, that's it, come sit on poppa's face we'll drive the amalfi coast in my
ferrrari we will and kanoodle with eurotrash on the greek islands and wear minks and have our faces done by the same
guy who did Liz Taylor and snort pharmaceutical grade cocaine and attend opening night.....
And all this time
you really wanted a tuna sandwich.
Amalfi coast ... One of the most beautiful sights I have ever seen in my life!!A
voman vould be pleased to sit your face and view such a sight!!
Never argue with ignorant people! They pull you down to THEIR level, and then they BEAT YOU with experience. Who said that!? I don't know, but tis gold I tell'ya!!
Uh...I'll have what he's having.
If a guy's a cocksucker in his life, when he dies, he don't become a saint. - Morris Levy, Hitmen
Holmes' Theme Song
I've dated many"the seduction community
is geared towards the 8s, 9s, and 10s. so the information you get is skewed towards the supermodel in vip. you need
social intelligence. the game playing doesn't have to be as hard on a 7 or so."
8-10 women. Heck, I was even married to one. They're just like everyone else when it comes to cruelty or game
playing. "Some they do and some they don't." My last GF was a major bitch, a working model and actress and married
to a guy twice her age (not me!). Her head was too huge it got stuck in the door. She understood the power she
possessed and used it to her advantage. However, in my experience, most attractive women aren't like that. Some are
genuinely nice girls: loving, kind and considerate. One of them told me guys often avoid her because she was too
attractive. I've dated several attractive women who were resentful of special male attention due to their
attractiveness. They constantly tried to prove they were as smart, fast, aggressive or talented as any man. Sheesh,
if I beat one of them at tennis she'd be pissed for days.
The thought of a "seduction community" is
hilarious. I picture a red light district on Love Island...
Closer to the
truth is Fire Island.
If a guy's a cocksucker in his life, when he dies, he don't become a saint. - Morris Levy, Hitmen
Holmes' Theme Song
Make that a double for me.
DrSmellThis (creator of P H E R O S)
I left a "nice guy" because he was also a
"wuss". I like a strong alpha male. But... with that power that I am willing to give to him comes the responsibility
of kindness and respect towards me. If I ever feel there is no respect towards me (and everything that that entails)
I WILL walk.
I think you mean Temptation Island.
Naughty Girl:
We look for
the same in a man. Someone who can be strong and protect me and who is gentle at the same time. He needs a will and
life of his own and never changes his mind just because he thinks I want him too. There are many more things, that
is just a part of it.
You are strong willed too?
Yeah, you and every other
woman on earth. While we're at it, I'd like to say that I'm looking for an attractive, confident woman with a
good sense of humor and who's very comfortable with her sexuality...
I'm also a guy who loves going out but
has no problem staying in and watching a good movie.
My horoscope says that a big opportunity lies ahead, and I
have a choice to make on which way to go.
Yes, but I have found himYeah, you and
every other woman on earth. While we're at it, I'd like to say that I'm looking for an attractive, confident
woman with a good sense of humor and who's very comfortable with her sexuality...
I'm also a guy who loves
going out but has no problem staying in and watching a good movie.
My horoscope says that a big opportunity lies
ahead, and I have a choice to make on which way to go.
My man is
gentle and loving. I have watched him many times at the dojo, he can protect me! He is mostly like Naughty wrote
about a wolf.
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