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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Traggard
    Look it is

    quite simple. Men are programmed by evolution to be attracted to certain things like youthfulness, symmetry, certain

    hip to waist ratio etc.

    Women are programmed to be attracted to symmetry as well, but the big difference is that

    they are more attracted to personality traits then what men are. The personality traits that attract women are often

    indicators of high status. Dominance, humour, confidence, not supplicating etc. So the process of being attracted to

    someone works differently for men and women. There is no more “trickery” or deception for men to study seduction

    then it for women to spend and hour or more each day working on their appearance.
    If you're going to

    generalize men in such fashion, then the correct way to generalize women on similar grounds is to say that they are

    attracted to the ability to provide, protect, and support. Men desire visual traits because they're good signs of a

    potential mate for the sake of healthy offspring. Women look for the ability to provide, protect, and support. Back

    in the day, physical strength was big...now, it's money. High social standing has always been a big factor because

    early it meant you were recognized by your peers as a good hunter, strong warrior, or a successful leader. Now,

    social standing comes with power, money, and success. All of these things allow a man to provide, protect, and

    support a woman and the couple's offspring. Therefore, they're desirable traits (remember, we're talking about

    evolution here).

    "Women are more attracted to personality traits" is a fallacy. Men look at personality traits

    just as much as women do...just different ones. Women look for personality traits that align with the provide,

    protect, and support factors (confidence, assertiveness, dominance, etc.). Men look for personality traits,

    too...whether it be femininity, nurturing, and caring or seductive, confident, and strong-willed.

    It's not that

    the process is different, it's just that since men use visual cues and women use socioeconomical, personality

    traits are much more indicative of the latter's potential. Men's instinctual jobs are just easier, that's all.



    "She looks attractive. She must be capable of having healthy offspring."

    vs.

    "He looks and smells

    attractive. Now that I have determined his potential to reproduce, I have to determine whether he's capable of

    being able to protect, support, and provide for a family. After my initial look to see if he has the socioeconomic

    potential, I have to speak with him and see if his personality fits my initial analysis."

    That's the cost of

    not being the one responsible for having the child...you have to go through a much more complex selection process.



    Again, my disclaimer is that this is at the base of human instinctual mating habits. Personality and

    feelings are much more involved in the selection process on both sides.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by silksand


    Okay,

    let me ask you - has a girl ever expressed (in whatever indirect way) that she wants you, and you've had to tell

    her that to you, she is a friend and not a girlfriend? Was it painful for you to do? Did you avoid the "friend" part

    because that's such a bad thing to say to someone? When I truly care about someone as a friend, I think that's

    worth mentioning, don't you?.
    Honestly, no, I don't. Guys aren't that sophisticated. We cannot

    emotionally accept two divergent concepts like "compliment" and "rejection" at the same time. We can no more

    deliver this to someone else, than we can accept it. If a guy is romantically interested in a girl, and it's

    obvious, then, to a man's mind, at least, to MY mind, (I can't speak for all men), there are two possible options.

    Either she:

    a. Feels also romantically for him.
    b. Does not feel romantically for him.

    I cannot tell you

    how many times in my life I was told "I don't want to ruin our special friendship." But guess what? You just did.

    By rejecting the romantic overtures. Rejection hurts, right? Yet, I'm supposed to overlook the hurt, and just

    focus on "but, she really likes me as a FRIEND, though.... YAYYYY!!!".

    I'm sorry, that' just not realistic.

    In EVERY case this happened, it promptly "ruined the friendship". It's selfish to ask a guy to be a friend, when

    clearly he wants something more. If you don't feel the same way, that's fine, but it's unrealistic to expect the

    other party to just overlook their feelings. So no, whether you truly care for them as a friend is not relevant -

    except that, a real friend doesn't want to see the other in pain. It's better to just go separate ways.




    Quote Originally Posted by silksand

    Oh, so she SHOULD let him spend money on her, lead him on, even though at this point she does

    not see him as a potential partner? Not consistent! If she thinks he's a possible-maybe contender, she's not going

    to use the "friend" line. If she doesn't think he is, does he still want to take her out?

    No....

    she SHOULD see him based as a "potential partner", based on what she said. In the above fictitious (yet all too

    often realistic) scenario, the following conditions exist:

    a: chick unhappy with boyfriend
    b: chick states she

    wants "nice guy"
    c: "nice guy" shows up

    What happens next should be obvious, right? Based on her own

    statements about what she wants, she should feel attraction towards the nice guy, especially if he makes his

    interest known. Yet she doesn't feel the attraction, because she doesn't "see him as a potential partner". Why?

    She stated criteria. He met (the stated) criteria. Yet the attraction doesn't exist. This actually proves my

    above point - what women SAY they want, and WHAT THEY RESPOND to, are two separate things. That's why the "bad

    seduction advice" teaches men:

    "It doesn't matter what she says she wants. It only matters what she responds

    to."

    Not sure how I can state it any clearer than that.


    Quote Originally Posted by silksand

    Simply because it's

    boring.
    You don't seem boring to me, at least not yet.

    Quote Originally Posted by silksand

    Well gosh, I

    know OF thousands of women.
    Copout. You know what I'm asking. Let me rephrase it: Are *most* women

    likely to engage in, or have *most* women ever engaged in, the above described "leading on" behavior? Others please

    feel free to chime in on that.

  3. #33
    Full Member wood elf's Avatar
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    Esk6969:
    You confuse nice guy

    with something else. Belgareth is a nice guy but he does not allow others to take advantage of him nor does he

    attempt to buy a woman's affection. A man I knew in school always tried to please me with gifts and nice words. I

    refused his gifts because I feared he would believe it placed an obligation on me. Some women would not have refused

    but that is there choice. The man is as much at fault because he makes the assumption that the woman can be bought.

    Why do many men assume a woman can be bought, that she or her body is for sale?

  4. #34
    Phero Enthusiast silksand's Avatar
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    esk6969,

    You did not

    answer my question about whether you had ever had a female friend who YOU had to reject, and what that was like for

    you. In my experience it's not that easy to reject people, especially those you care for. I really would like to

    hear about what this experience is like for you; it's a side of the story we don't get to hear very often.



    In EVERY case this happened, it promptly "ruined the friendship".
    As I said in my

    last post, this has not always been the case for me, whether it's me or my friend who's being turned down as a

    lover. It's a choice. If you can handle it, you can stay friends. If not, you don't, and don't torture yourself,

    but recognize that she is not "doing this to you" - it's your choice whether to persist in enjoying her company,

    even if it's not in her bed. (I also tend to stay friends with ex-lovers, unless they did a jekyll-n-hyde on me,

    very rare). Why make it all or nothing? It's not logical! It's VERY romantic, though - the French Foreign

    Legion and all that.

    What happens next should be obvious, right? Based on her own statements

    about what she wants, she should feel attraction towards the nice guy, especially if he makes his interest known.

    Yet she doesn't feel the attraction, because she doesn't "see him as a potential partner". Why? She stated

    criteria. He met (the stated) criteria.
    You know any women who truly have just ONE criterion for

    a mate? This argument is kind of obtuse, don't you think? I mentioned a few reasons why she might like him as a

    friend, want a nicer lover than the one she has, yet not want that particular friend in her bed. I have LOTS of

    criteria, don't you?

    "It doesn't matter what she says she wants. It only matters what she

    responds to."
    True, as far as it goes. Actions do speak louder than words. If these techniques

    work for you and you like the quality of women you end up with, you like the quality of the interactions you have

    and the level of intimacy afforded by them, then you go for it.

    You don't seem boring to me, at

    least not yet.
    Give me time, I'm sure I'll get there. But my comment referred to my

    story, not myself.

    Copout. You know what I'm asking. Let me rephrase it: Are *most* women

    likely to engage in, or have *most* women ever engaged in, the above described "leading on" behavior? Others please

    feel free to chime in on that.
    Well darlin', I DID answer your question, and you did not acknowledge

    my full answer. Some women do those things, and I don't care to hang with them. You don't have to either. I don't

    think that's acceptable behavior on any level. Anyone who feels qualified to assess the behavior of "most" women is

    welcome to do so. Anyone looking for a golddigger or a ho can certainly find one. There are also plenty of

    down-to-earth women like myself who have no patience for BS or for some kind of adversarial gamesmanship between the

    sexes. Please, that is SO old. Men and women ARE different, but we are much more alike in our humanness than we are

    different. A guy that really, really gets this is worth keeping around.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by wood elf
    Esk6969:
    You

    confuse nice guy with something else. Belgareth is a nice guy but he does not allow others to take advantage of him

    nor does he attempt to buy a woman's affection. A man I knew in school always tried to please me with gifts and

    nice words. I refused his gifts because I feared he would believe it placed an obligation on me. Some women would

    not have refused but that is there choice. The man is as much at fault because he makes the assumption that the

    woman can be bought. Why do many men assume a woman can be bought, that she or her body is for sale?
    I'm

    sure you haven't read it, but you've practically nailed the profile of a "nice guy" from the book, No More Mr.

    Nice Guy
    . Good call.

  6. #36
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    Default looks to me like most people have struggled to find "it"

    there are those who have struggled wisely and those who struggled unwisely...

    underneath it all they're looking for meaning, a powerful sense of connection that enlarges your sense of self.

    That sense of self enlargement may begin lower down Maslow's hierarchy of needs: the need to be admired, envied, to

    stand out, to count for something, to have an effect on people... this may be outgrown, OK, people saw, they

    admired, they wanted what I had, my male prowess was acknowledged, then you either find yourself hooked up with a

    stranger you thought you knew, or you discover new levels of mutual evolution, kind of a thrilling feeling of

    acceleration in your butt when you realize you are growing twice as fast as you possibly could on your own, that's

    when you really appreciate the value of how the differences between aren't hopeless chasms but valuable shifts of

    perspective (assuming there's congruence at the level of basic beliefs about life)... sure you can live with a

    round of ego recharging, one after another for a while until you reach a point where each one becomes more draining

    than the last one, you get this weird feeling in the pit of your stomach that you should be some other place with

    your mind, you need to make things deeper, fuller... comic books won't cut it any more, you want to read

    novels...

  7. #37
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    I don't get it....what ever

    happened to just having fun?

  8. #38
    Kodachrome Forever! Gegogi's Avatar
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    Traggard writes, "Men are

    programmed by evolution to be attracted to certain things like youthfulness, symmetry, certain hip to waist ratio

    etc."
    Of course, the certain hip to waist ratio can and does vary considerably from man to man. I

    know guys that are attracted to big 'n fat women. Some younger guys prefer women twice their age. I prefer slender

    women with small breasts. I don't think you can generalize too much here other than "most men are attracted to

    women." Beyond that, it's pretty wide open. Otherwise the human race would have stopped reproducing long ago.
    "I'm just a dirty hornytoad" -Gegogi

  9. #39
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    Default That dpenends on what your definition of "fun" is....

    things that are fun for a 20 year old may be ridiculous for a 40 year old. 40

    year old guys who haven't gotten past the thrill levels of their late teens-early twenties are generally looked

    upon as social retards...which isn't to say that you still don't retain a sense of wild assed adventure sometimes,

    maybe however you learn to be more *discriminating*... seems to come down to *taste*, taste in music, taste in

    people, taste in what you do with your own imagination, taste in what you read, the words you use, the places you

    go...

  10. #40
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    All: Just to be clear, I have

    no dog in this fight. Which is why I am able to argue for it dispassionately. I am married, almost 10 years, 33

    yo, 3 kids. My primary interest in both pheromones and "seduction" techniques, for lack of a better term (perhaps -

    behavior alteration would be better), is two fold: One, to get an "edge" in business dealings, and two, to assist

    me in navigating the often troubled waters of marriage. It's just that, I see a lot of guys making many of the

    same mistakes I did when I was learning - and also, so much of what I see on these sites rings so true to my own

    past experiences in dealing with women. IOW, things that the seduction sites say don't do, I did, and I suffered

    for it. When I started doing SOME of the things recommended on those sites, even though it was long before such

    sites existed, things started to improve for me. Therefore, I argue in favor of their techniques, for one simple

    reason: They work. I know that they work, independently of the sites or books themselves, because I've done many

    of those things myself, and also known many other people in my social circle to do them as well, and apply them with

    success.

    Woodelf: Not sure how we got off on the tangent of "buying women". Of course, I mean to imply no such

    idea that either women can be bought, nor that they should feel obligated if money is spent on them. Rather, the

    opposite, in that they should *not* be bought, and that passion, attraction, and ulimately, seduction (women do also

    seduce men, do they not?), should be a by-product of mutual feelings, rather than some sort of transactional

    equivalancy. You are right, any guy who buys things for women and automatically expects something in return is

    kinda creepy. When I was in my supplicating/AFC days, I didn't buy things, dinners, drinks, etc. for women in

    expectation of some sort of reciprocation - I did it, because I liked them, and wanted to spend time with them, and

    was taught that a gentleman always pays for dates and such - whether anything romantic comes of it or not. Sad fact

    is, many women do take advantage of that, and that is why chivalry is dead.

    Reminds me of a scene from my

    adolescence: Once, my stepsister was talking about this AFC (Average Frustrated Chump) she "dated", but clearly had

    no romantic interest in, even though he CLEARLY had it for her. My father and stepmother were asking her why she

    kept leading him on like that, and she said "I don't know... he's very loyal, kind of like a dog, HAHAHAHA." My

    dad smiled, a very knowing smile, and said right to her, in a very father-to-daughter kind of a way... "THAT'S why

    women get what they deserve. Right there." I'll never forget it.

    Silksand: You're right, it is getting a

    little boring at this point. Mostly because we're starting to talk in circles. I don't think either one of us

    will be persuaded to the other's point of view, but I think we've each argued well in favor of our viewpoints.

    Hopefully, this will be of help to others to read and decide.

    To answer your questions: I didn't answer your

    question about rejection, because I can't honestly think of a time when I've been in that situation. Understand,

    I have MAJOR CEE, (Clint Eastwood Effect), and always have. It's one of the reasons I'm here on Lovescent. CEE

    is real. Most people are naturally afraid of me. That is not a boast, but a curse. It maybe served me well in

    high school, not such a good quality in a 33 year old.

    As for: "There are also plenty of down-to-earth women

    like myself who have no patience for BS or for some kind of adversarial gamesmanship between the sexes. Please, that

    is SO old."

    Ok, I guess I'll just have to take your word for it. I have never known a woman who did not play

    games, including my wife. Understand, I'm not viewing this as an "adversarial" relationship - any more than I view

    business dealings as "adversarial", though a lot of people do. I do a bit of real estate investing - I notice

    everyone has the same stance on that. It doesn't make sense to me. One side wants to sell the house. The other

    wants to buy it. Ultimately, what both sides want is the SAME THING. They want for the house to change hands -

    they just have different ideas of how to go about it.

    I don't view interpersonal relationships any different.

    EVERYONE engages in some sort of manipulation, gamesmanship, or whatever you want to call it, in order to get what

    they want out of relationships, be they personal or business. I honestly don't view this as a bad thing, it's

    just the way things are. I really honestly do conduct both my personal, as well as my business dealings, according

    to the WIN/WIN philosophy. BUT- there are TWO "wins" in that sentence. In other words, it needs to be a win for

    you - AND win for me. Not one side benefitting to the exclusion of the other, in *either* direction.

  11. #41
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    Cool and to loop this one back around to pheromones

    among the better surprises was that pheromones can be used to improve existing relationships. Its just

    that different pheromones or different ratios between them are established by nature to make the initial connection

    possible then shift into what happens once the connection is made. Quite often a relationship sticks in a logjam...

    things that need to be said aren't being said, stagnation sets in, the mood becomes petty and critical... the -none

    heavy passion arousing mixes aren't the answer. OTOH, a good shot of alpha/beta -nol with a chaser of

    androstadienol and some androsterone can work wonders... In certain cases in my life a strong application in an

    enclosed area was necessary to build the critical levels to throw the switch from shut down/grumpy/not

    listening/judgemental to communicative/mind clearing/emotionally freeing conversation. Probably about as effective

    as a dose of pure exstacy without the raunchy side effects of X, definitely therapautic, and definitely

    psychologically eye opening. IMHO, a lot of role playing, dress up games, mask wearing are essentially a protective

    distancing mechanisms, ways of not saying things or confronting issues because the players want to stay in well

    defined "comfort zones", even if the lack of communication equals a kind of low risk comfort... which leads us to

    point B, that real communication does involve risk, risk of judgement, risk of rejection, risk of being thought

    freakish, strange, "not one of us", whoever "us" may be... that may explain why clear eyed candor is both unsettling

    and refreshing if it is done with accuracy and tact... that's why good theater is unnerving, the actors are taking

    emotional risks, they're going places that aren't too cool or too easy to go to, and they're doing it live on

    stage in front of you, they can't run off satge and away from their feelings.... sure, and it can go the other way

    too, like the jackasses who are always telling it like it is without regard to social nuances, the soulful

    therapeutically too honest for words types who drive everyone up a tree with their earnest sincere nosiness... well,

    back at the ranch, sooner or later you get to the place where you have the breakthrough to your inner selves, or

    maybe you don't and just go round and round forever, not everybody wants or needs to know every other person like

    that, a lot of personal stuff bores the shit out of me or has nothing to do with my purpose in being here....

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    There you go, surfs up. That's

    what I meant about having fun. The attitude, not the age related specifics, is what really matters.

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    from my years of dating and

    relationships, ive learned one thing i would consider the most important of all lessons as far as attraction and

    what women want goes..and that is, nice guys finish last. Women always want what they cant have. The only way a nice

    guy finishes first is when the woman has lowered her standards, or youre physical apperance overrides the other

    variables, but if that happens, that means you have lowered your standards. Being nice and caring is the 5th and

    last course of a 5 course meal. Being nice doesnt get you girls, it gets you friends, and it lets you keep girls

    youve already bagged. Women are attracted to men who have many options available to them, b/c thats what makes them

    attractive. You have to show them that they cannot do any better than you and at most they can only do just as well.

    That keeps them on your leash b/c why start a new relationship and work out all the kinks just to reach what they

    already have now? Change is only desired if for the better, so if you can show the girl youre with that she can at

    most only do just as well if she left you, you have won the war.

  14. #44
    Moderator belgareth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by noodlesnspam
    and that

    is, nice guys finish last. Women always want what they cant have. The only way a nice guy finishes first is when the

    woman has lowered her standards, or youre physical apperance overrides
    Unmitigated hogwash!

    You still

    make the mistake of confusing a nice guy with a placating wimp. You can be nice, still be an alpha and still have

    good results with attractive women.
    To compel a man to subsidize with his taxes the propagation of ideas which he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical.

    Thomas Jefferson

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by belgareth
    Unmitigated

    hogwash!

    You still make the mistake of confusing a nice guy with a placating wimp. You can be nice, still be an

    alpha and still have good results with attractive women.
    I think we have to accept the fact that the term

    "nice guy" has adapted to mean either a pushover or the definition in No More Mr. Nice Guy (they do things

    for others expecting something in return, they always aim to please, they never feel they deserve to do anything for

    themselves, etc.). You'll have to just accept the fact that people like you, Bel, are not "nice guys" according to

    the new definition. You are "Gentlemen", "Upstanding Men", or whatever you want to call yourselves...but "nice guy"

    is no longer a word you should associate yourself with just because you're "nice" and you're a "guy". I only say

    to accept it because I think this is a battle you'll lose to the general societal understanding of the term.

  16. #46
    Moderator belgareth's Avatar
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    Maybe so. One can always hope

    that a few will figure it out if you say it often enough. My main problem is the accepted opposite of nice guy seems

    to be jackass and I think that is a very bad attitude to promote.
    To compel a man to subsidize with his taxes the propagation of ideas which he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical.

    Thomas Jefferson

  17. #47
    Phero Enthusiast silksand's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pancho1188
    I think we

    have to accept the fact that the term "nice guy" has adapted to mean either a pushover or the definition in No

    More Mr. Nice Guy
    (they do things for others expecting something in return, they always aim to please, they

    never feel they deserve to do anything for themselves, etc.). You'll have to just accept the fact that people like

    you, Bel, are not "nice guys" according to the new definition. You are "Gentlemen", "Upstanding Men", or whatever

    you want to call yourselves...but "nice guy" is no longer a word you should associate yourself with just because

    you're "nice" and you're a "guy". I only say to accept it because I think this is a battle you'll lose to the

    general societal understanding of the term.
    "Nice guy" doesn't say enough - I like the anti-wimp

    connotations of "mensch" and "stand-up."

  18. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by belgareth
    Maybe so. One

    can always hope that a few will figure it out if you say it often enough. My main problem is the accepted opposite

    of nice guy seems to be jackass and I think that is a very bad attitude to promote.
    Very true. I think it's

    kind of like a spectrum:

    <----------------------------->
    Nice Guy___Real Man___Jackass

    In a way, jackass

    is the opposite of a nice guy...and you have the perfect guy...the gentleman...the real man...the desirable

    guy...whatever you want to call him in the middle.

    I think the problem is generalization. The nice in

    "nice guy" is emphasized as the bad part, and the ass in jackass is emphasized as the good part, when in

    reality the nice is the good part about being a nice guy, and the ass is the bad part of being a jackass. The good

    part of the jackass is the alpha persona, the confidence, the self-esteem and willingness to take risks, make

    decisions, and go for what he wants...the bad part of the nice guy is the lack of those things.

  19. #49
    Full Member wood elf's Avatar
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    You say it well but I do not

    think you have it correct. A nice guy can be so without any belief that others will do anything in return. He has

    confidence in what he does, he does it for no reason but because he wishes to do it. He is a real man. As Belgareth

    calls it, the Wimp is the one who expects something for his efforts where the nice guy expects nothing in return. Is

    it not a little reprehensible to do a favor then expect something in return? That sounds more like barter to me. The

    jackass is the same. He behaves like a fool, as much so as the wimp, and expects some return for what he does. To

    display it accurately use a triangle with the nice guy or real man at the apex. The others are opposite corners of

    the base.

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    You're looking at the

    definition of the "nice guy" from a female's (or your own if you don't want to generalize) perspective when she

    says she wants a "nice guy". However, I'm using the definition of the "nice guy" from a male perspective, using the

    definition in the book I reference every five seconds when speaking on the topic. I'm not saying you're wrong;

    I'm saying that my spectrum is correct when using my definition because you can be on one side, the other, or in

    the middle where you combine the beneficial qualities of both while limiting the negative ones.

    Using my

    definition, I do not see how a triangle would work because that would imply that they have three distinct qualities

    when one combines the best of both of the others.


    You can argue for your definition of a "nice guy" and be

    correct because there's no set definition for it.

  21. #51
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    Default The Nice Guy Syndrome

    http://nomoremrniceguy.com/ngs.php

    The "Nice Guy", according to

    No More Mr. Nice Guy:

    The Nice Guy

    Syndrome




    "I'm one of the nicest guys I know."
    "How come I always

    seem to give so much more than I get?"
    "All I want is to be appreciated, is that asking too much?"
    "I can never do

    it right."
    Sound familiar? These are typical Nice Guy

    sentiments. A nice guy's primary goal is to make others happy. Nice guys have been conditioned to believe that if

    they are good, giving, and caring, they will be loved, get what they want, and have a smooth life.



    Who is a nice

    guy?
    • He is the relative who lets his wife run the

      show.
    • He is the friend who will do anything for anybody, but whose own life seems to be in shambles.
    • He is

      the guy who frustrates his wife because he is so afraid of conflict that nothing ever gets resolved.
    • He is the

      boss who tells one person what they want to hear, then reverses himself to please someone else.
    • He is the man

      who lets people walk all over him because he doesn't want to rock the boat.
    • He is the dependable guy at work

      who will never say "no," but would never tell anyone if they were imposing on him.
    • He is the man whose life

      seems so under control, until BOOM, one day he does something to destroy it

      all.
    In general, nice guys share the following

    characteristics:
    • Nice guys seek the approval of

      others.
    • Nice guys try to hide their perceived flaws and mistakes.
    • Nice guys put other people's needs and

      wants before their own.
    • Nice guys sacrifice their personal power and often play the role of a victim.
    • Nice

      guys tend to be disconnected from other men and from their own masculine energy.
    • Nice guys co-create

      relationships that are less than satisfying.
    • Nice guys create situations in which they do not have very much

      good sex.
    • Nice guys frequently fail to live up their full potential.
    If the characteristics listed above

    fit you or someone you know, read on. No More Mr. Nice Guy! presents a proven plan to help passively pleasing men

    stop seeking approval and start getting what they want in love and life.

  22. #52
    Phero Enthusiast silksand's Avatar
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    I can't even begin to tell you

    how many WOMEN I know who fit the description of NICE GUY that you quote, Pancho. Women who do these behaviors call

    themselves doormat, old shoe, too nice, a martyr... it's a curiously flexible, gender-nonspecific concept.

  23. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by silksand
    I can't even

    begin to tell you how many WOMEN I know who fit the description of NICE GUY that you quote, Pancho. Women who do

    these behaviors call themselves doormat, old shoe, too nice, a martyr... it's a curiously flexible,

    gender-nonspecific concept.
    I won't argue that. I also won't argue the embarrassment that I have for

    admitting that I fit the description. I need to reread that book...

  24. #54
    Full Member wood elf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pancho1188
    You're

    looking at the definition of the "nice guy" from a female's (or your own if you don't want to generalize)

    perspective when she says she wants a "nice guy". However, I'm using the definition of the "nice guy" from a male

    perspective, using the definition in the book I reference every five seconds when speaking on the topic. I'm not

    saying you're wrong; I'm saying that my spectrum is correct when using my definition because you can be on one

    side, the other, or in the middle where you combine the beneficial qualities of both while limiting the negative

    ones.

    Using my definition, I do not see how a triangle would work because that would imply that they have three

    distinct qualities when one combines the best of both of the others.


    You can argue for your definition of a

    "nice guy" and be correct because there's no set definition for it.
    Pancho:

    You use the definition of a

    nice guy from a book written by one man. You are smart and intelligent. Did they not teach you to think for yourself

    instead of relying on another's opinion? Of a certainty, this writer's definition is valid. Equally valid is

    yours, Belgareth's and the guy you saw walking down the street. It is up to the person to decide what is the most

    right to the situation.

    I used a triangle for cause. There is no difference between the wimp and the jackass

    other than method. They are both insecure and phony in how they cope with life, they seek reward for how they act

    and what they do. Silksand is right to say that it also can be used to describe women. At the apex are those few men

    and women who take the best of both and discard as much of the useless as they can. They are not equal to either of

    the others but are superior.

    You are right too that I use my own definition here. If you carefully consider it

    you may find you do the same many times daily. Here for your reasons you have choosen to use another's.

  25. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by wood elf
    Pancho:



    You use the definition of a nice guy from a book written by one man. You are smart and intelligent. Did they not

    teach you to think for yourself instead of relying on another's opinion? Of a certainty, this writer's definition

    is valid. Equally valid is yours, Belgareth's and the guy you saw walking down the street. It is up to the person

    to decide what is the most right to the situation.

    I used a triangle for cause. There is no difference between

    the wimp and the jackass other than method. They are both insecure and phony in how they cope with life, they seek

    reward for how they act and what they do. Silksand is right to say that it also can be used to describe women. At

    the apex are those few men and women who take the best of both and discard as much of the useless as they can. They

    are not equal to either of the others but are superior.

    You are right too that I use my own definition here. If

    you carefully consider it you may find you do the same many times daily. Here for your reasons you have choosen to

    use another's.
    (re: second paragraph) You're right.




    I find your third sentence ironic. I

    am relying on my own opinion. You speak like I don't think for myself when you should know from my posts that I

    usually give my own opinion and never cite sources other than Seinfeld for kicks. I just cite this man's analysis

    because he explains it better than I could. Besides, the definition I use is used my many people (just read those

    seduction sites...nice guys are wimps on those forums); the book just defined it in print for me to copy and

    paste.

  26. #56
    Kodachrome Forever! Gegogi's Avatar
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    Who is a nice guy?
    He

    is the relative who lets his wife run the show.
    He is the friend who will do anything for anybody, but whose own

    life seems to be in shambles.
    He is the guy who frustrates his wife because he is so afraid of conflict that

    nothing ever gets resolved.
    He is the boss who tells one person what they want to hear, then reverses himself to

    please someone else.
    He is the man who lets people walk all over him because he doesn't want to rock the

    boat.
    He is the dependable guy at work who will never say "no," but would never tell anyone if they were imposing

    on him.
    He is the man whose life seems so under control, until BOOM, one day he does something to destroy it

    all.
    In general, nice guys share the following characteristics:
    Nice guys seek the approval of others.
    Nice

    guys try to hide their perceived flaws and mistakes.
    Nice guys put other people's needs and wants before their

    own.
    Nice guys sacrifice their personal power and often play the role of a victim.
    Nice guys tend to be

    disconnected from other men and from their own masculine energy.
    Nice guys co-create relationships that are less

    than satisfying.
    Nice guys create situations in which they do not have very much good sex.
    Nice guys

    frequently fail to live up their full potential.
    I think all of the above is the definition of a

    spineless coward (but a nice spineless coward). In other words, a loser. Being a nice guy is a positive thing. This

    positive energy flows from inner strength and security in one's manhood and social status. Thus:

    • A

    nice guy is a confident, considerate and compassionate man.

    • A nice guy stands up for what he believes in,

    but understands the world doesn't revolve around him and is sensitive to the needs of others.

    • A nice guy

    also knows when to draw the line and doesn't take shit from anybody.

    • A nice guy not above admitting he

    was wrong, saying he's sorry or fixing what he has cast asunder.

    --Gegogi
    I consider myself

    to be a nice guy. And I don't usually finish last. In fact I'm extremely gung-ho, often competitive, in nearly

    everything I do. I enjoy kicking ass, being the best and pushing it to the limit. And that applies to my

    relationships with women. Now that I think of it, my last GF told me I was a really nice guy. Oddly, at the end, she

    said I was an incredible asshole. Cool, so maybe I'm an asshole/nice guy hydrid!
    "I'm just a dirty hornytoad" -Gegogi

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    Quote Originally Posted by belgareth
    Belgareth

    reaches for his soapbox, sets it in the middle of the room and climbs up on it...

    If more fathers would take the

    time to teach their young daughters how they should really be treated, the attitude towards women displayed here

    would be minimized. How are they supposed to understand how a real man is supposed to behave other than by example?

    The father's job as role model has been sorely neglected in our society.
    I'm coming into this thread

    late. Actually it's very simple to teach your daughter how a woman should be treated. I treat my wife the way I

    hope my daughter will be treated. She's a smart kid, she'll figure it out.

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    I hope I don't offend anyone

    too badly with this, but if you ever want a giggle go to the no more mr nice guy forum.

    C'mon, where did all

    this melodramatic people come from?!

    I don't think the issue with that site and its acolytes has anything to

    do with "nice." More like abscence of self esteem, self respect, and quite possibly the developement of a new

    species: Homo invertebrus.

  29. #59
    Full Member wood elf's Avatar
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    Thank you Gegogi and Satyrboy.

    You understand what I am saying. I have not seen that site but think it might be funny to visit and read. A nice guy

    is the honorable one, the one that does usually finish first because he is determined and aggressive. Maybe it is a

    maturity thing, that some grow into the ability to be a nice guy. I have not known many young men who have learned

    to be truly nice guys without being wimps.

  30. #60
    Full Member wood elf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by satyrboy
    I'm coming

    into this thread late. Actually it's very simple to teach your daughter how a woman should be treated. I treat my

    wife the way I hope my daughter will be treated. She's a smart kid, she'll figure it out.
    Belgareth does

    the same and has three smart daughters who understand to stay away from those types of men. He also talks to them

    about men and relationships so he knows they will not stand to be treated as less than the young ladies they are.



    I do not like to think what might happen to the young man that mistreats his daughter. The only times I have seen

    him angry is when he was defending one of them. I fear some young man will learn a harsh and unpleasant lesson about

    honor.

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