natural copulins

[InACharmedLife]

I don't mean

to be crass, but have any of the women here tried wearing their own copulins, and then compared the results to the

synthetic copulins? I wonder how comparable the effects would be, particularly with non-menopausal women. Why wear

synthetic copulins when you have your own natural copulins? Unless synthetic works better. (Again, referring to

non-menopausal women; I can understand how estrogen-deficient or menopausal women may need synthetic

copulins).
It's sort of folk lore that peasant women wore their own secretions behind their ears to attract men. I

wonder if the natural way isn't the better way?
I understand that copulin output is highest at ovulation, but if

you had a general idea when you were ovulating, it's not too difficult to know when to wear your own "scent".

[InACharmedLife]

Another thought, assuming

that this may be effective (and I don't know if it is or not);

women could "harvest" their copulins during

ovulation and then add them to a bottle of perfume, to be worn all month (ie during non-ovulatory phases, too). this

fragrance could be worn alone, or serve as the cover scent under EW, to increase the natural copulins with synthetic

copulins.

Also, women could wear the same bra during the ovulatory phase and not launder it, and then wear it

during other times of the month (i.e. non-ovulatory) to stimulate men.

Just tossing these ideas out their for

feedback and to prompt some discussion on the topic.
I think that trying to blend one's natural copulins with

synthetic copulins may be useful, but doing so would require some sort of collection of ovulatory-phase copulins to

supplment the EW or PCC.

[NaughtieGirl]

I don't mean to be crass, but have any of the women here tried wearing their own copulins,

and then compared the results to the synthetic copulins? I wonder how comparable the effects would be, particularly

with non-menopausal women. Why wear synthetic copulins when you have your own natural copulins? Unless synthetic

works better. (Again, referring to non-menopausal women; I can understand how estrogen-deficient or menopausal women

may need synthetic copulins).
It's sort of folk lore that peasant women wore their own secretions behind their

ears to attract men. I wonder if the natural way isn't the better way?
I understand that copulin output is highest

at ovulation, but if you had a general idea when you were ovulating, it's not too difficult to know when to wear

your own "scent".

Wow, Charmed, you are really delving into this stuff aren't you! I think we might be

very much alike, except I've been side-tracked by other projects the last couple of weeks. Has it crossed my mind?

Yes. Have I tried it? Yes. Pretty easy for me to feel/know when I'm ovulating.

The problem I have is that all

this stuff is so subtle. I can't tell for sure if it has an effect or not. Very often I wonder if I would not have

had the very same reaction from my husband or other men, had I worn no mones. Like yesterday, we meet our new

neigbors here at the property we are fixing up. Guy is a lawyer, cracks a joke and it was really funny so I laughed

very spontaneously. I could tell he was charmed and only had eyes for me the rest of the conversation. But...

low-rise jeans, tight t-shirt etc... must have caught his eye, I'm sure. So I think matters would have gone exactly

the same way had I worn no mones.

I have not had enough experience with the synthetic ones yet to

compare. Put on a ton of them last night and it did nothing. We even went to bed early to read, so it wasn't as if

he was tired. It did have an effect this morning, but then again... guys love their morning quickies, so who's to

say? Might not be the copulins at all.

Harvesting... I had honestly never thought of that. At least we

wouldn't have to jump through hoops of covering up the smell, cause natural copulins smell pretty discreet and

somewhat sweet I think.

PS When I have some time I intend to look further into the mones you mentionned in the

Cutler/Athena thread. I've only begun this journey of discovery. Gotto do my taxes first though...

[InACharmedLife]

To be honest, Naughty, I

am very skeptical that synthetic copulins are at all effective. I think that natural human copulins are likely very

complex substances, and I sincerely doubt that labratory made synthetics compare at all. My interest is more focused

on identifying substances that might increase a woman's natural copulin production, or enhance the potency of her

natural copulins. I suspect that any woman who is still ovulating probably produces adequate copulins, because

nature would provide the same cues for an ovulating 45 year old as it would for an ovulating 17 year old, if the

purpose of the pheromonal communication was mammalian reproduction. (And I assume it is.) In other words, nature

would cue fertilization of a viable ovum, regardless of the age of the female, as long as that female's

reproductive system was active and not in menopause. A viable egg is a viable egg is a viable egg.
This of course

is just my speculation.
That said, for non-menopausal women, I would be vey curious to learn the effects of wearing

one's own vaginal secretions behind the ears, and over the upper lip, during the ovulation phase. I would also be

interested in the effects of harvesting one's vaginal secretions and putting them in a fragrance. By doing so, it

seems to me, that a woman could concentrate her own natural copulins depending on how much harvested secretion she

added to her bottle of fragrance. I don't know which carrier would be best, an essential oil or oil-based

fragrance, or an alcohol-based cologne. But, I think this would be a worthwhile experiment to undertake.


I

would be curious to see if topical estrogen cream, applied facially, had any effect of men.

[DrSmellThis]

Um, interesting thread.

[NaughtieGirl]

Hmmm... I kinda suspected that this thread would get the guys' imagination going! But it is all for the

sake of this pheromone research - n'est-ce pas!

Charmed wrote: "It's sort of folk lore that peasant women wore

their own secretions behind their ears to attract men. "
I have to question that myth. Unless they were into

pheromone research and knew something about it, why on earth would peasant women have done that?

RE: "I

would be curious to see if topical estrogen cream, applied facially, had any effect on men."
Interesting question,

but unless I am prescribed estrogen years down the road, it is not really a substance I care to experiment with

right now.

[InternationalPlayboy]

Charmed wrote: "It's sort of folk lore that peasant women wore their own secretions behind

their ears to attract men. "
I have to question that myth. Unless they were into pheromone research and knew

something about it, why on earth would peasant women have done that?

I had read

that Cassanova would wipe his genitals with a handkerchief and then carry it in his breast pocket for effect.

[InACharmedLife]

It's been documented, I

believe, that women would apply not only vaginal secretions but also menstrual blood, behind their ears, to attract

men. I don't think it's necessary that they knew WHY it would work, only that it would. After all, we barely know

why---or even IF--- it might work and here we are, buying pheromones. In addition to folk history, folk magic uses

menstrual blood and vaginal secretions in charms to seduce men (see hoodoo history, which is African American, as

well as Irish and Welsh traditions to read more about this practice).

And of course, there's Napoleon's famous

memo to Josephone "...don't wash..." Why do you think he would ask that, and why would Josephine comply, assuming

she did?
I'm not sure we can be certain what people knew about pheromones many years ago. Just because they

didn't have a scientific name for pheromones doesn't indicate a lack of awareness of their effects.
Regarding the

estrogen cream, I wouldn't care to experiment personally either, but I'm interested in the potential effects of

topical estrogen. I wonder if the subconscious "scent" of estrogen effects males at all. I would be curious to know

if menopausal women on hormone replacement therapy were more attractive to men than those menopausal women not on

hrt, all other characterics being equivalent.
This entire topic interests me.

[wood elf]

The people in Ireland who

practice the druid's religion are supposed to do that. I only have heard about it second hand and do not know if it

is still true or historical.

[NaughtieGirl]

And of course, there's Napoleon's famous memo to Josephone "...don't wash..." Why do you think he would ask

that, and why would Josephine comply, assuming she did?
I'm not sure we can be certain what people knew about

pheromones many years ago. Just because they didn't have a scientific name for pheromones doesn't indicate a lack

of awareness of their effects.

Now that I can understand. I love the smell of my husband. I told him

yesterday and he replied "I'm not wearing anything". So I told him that that was exactly why he smelled good to me.

Just the smell of "Him". He has not a clue about pheromones yet.

I'm currently reading Cutler's book called

"Love cycles". It talks alot about hormones in men and women and their effects and some about pheromones as well.

Very readable and informative. You can pick it up for a couple of bucks in the used section of Amazon because it

came out quite a while ago. ONly drawback is that some of it by now is "Well yeah!"

[wood elf]

That is what I keep saying.

Some men do not need synthetic pheromones to smell good. Your husband must be one of them. I believe the synthetic

ones may be good to augment a man's natural scent but some men smell good without them.

[DrSmellThis]

I prefer cultivating the

natural approach to its limits, then supplementing it with technology, without taking away from it. That's the most

powerful way, IMO.

[Michael909]

I have been told that I

"smell really good" but I'm still looking for a GF.
so all the help I can get is ok with me.
"live better

through chemicals"

[CptKipling]

Natural copulins are reliant n

bacteria. Some women might not even havethe right bacteria, and over time "bad" bacteria may proliferate.

[InACharmedLife]

Specifically what

bacteria do copulins rely on? And, in exactly what way do copulins rely on bacteria?
A healthy female system

involves a balance of bacteria.
How would "bad bacteria" proliferate in a steadily healthy system? Resultant

infections would be treated and thus the bacteria balance would be restored.
Not sure this makes much sense at

all.

[DrSmellThis]

There are enormous variations

in the health of people's bacterial profiles, due to antibiotics, steroids, irradiation of vegetables, the overuse

of antibacterial soaps, poor diet, and opportunistic strains of bacteria; to name a few factors. This reflects in

skin and gastro-intestinal health.

If your friendly microbes are well stocked, your gut and skin will be self

regulating.

One copulin in EW, butyric acid, can be produced in the gut by the interaction of healthy

lactobacillic or bifidus bacteria and dietary fiber, for example.

Since many copulins are fatty acids, I would

also assume that healthy fat intake (EFA's, etc.) is important.

[jvkohl]

... I am very

skeptical that synthetic copulins are at all effective. I think that natural human copulins are likely very complex

substances, and I sincerely doubt that labratory made synthetics compare at all.

My friend Astrid

Jutte synthesized the same copulin formula used by R.P. Michael in early studies of its effects of male rhesus

monkeys. This formula increased testosterone levels in men 150%. It's the same formula used in SoE/women (and it's

not offensive, like EW, because the perfumer knows how to dilute/mix/cut/cover)--something that will be difficult to

duplicate.

...I suspect that any woman who is still ovulating probably produces

adequate copulins, because nature would provide the same cues for an ovulating 45 year old as it would for an

ovulating 17 year old, if the purpose of the pheromonal communication was mammalian reproduction. (And I assume it

is.)

The reason an ovulatory phase 17-24 year old smells better to men than a 45 year old is because

the 17-24 y/o's have higher estrogen levels and therefore a better copulin mix, as well as a more pleasing natural

body scent. The purpose of pheromones is not just mammalian reproduction, they are indicators of reproductive

fitness (which is why 17-24 y/o's typically smell better: they are typically more reproductively fit than older

women).

...I would be vey curious to learn the effects of wearing one's own

vaginal secretions behind the ears, and over the upper lip, during the ovulation phase. I would also be interested

in the effects of harvesting one's vaginal secretions and putting them in a fragrance.

Normal

bacteria in the vagina vary widely; copulin content varies with the menstrual cycle. Attempting to collect copulins

in the ovulatory phase would be difficult (first you need to be sure you are in the ovulatory phase). Attempting to

minimize bacterial content and breakdown would also be difficult (if not impossible).
Synthetic copulins are

exactly the same chemicals/compounds as the natural copulins--in the proper ovulatory phase mix, and without all the

contaminants you will get with personal collection.

I would be curious to see if

topical estrogen cream, applied facially, had any effect of men.

I can't think of any reason topical

estrogen would have a pheromonal effect. Pheromones typically are products of estrogen/androgen metabolism.



JVK

[InACharmedLife]

Thanks, JVKohl, your

comments answered my questions well.

It follows, then, that supplementing a woman's estrogen after age 35 (when

estrogen levels usually begin to fall gradually) should have a positive effect on natural copulin production. Of

course, HRT presents side effects, so I am proposing this option for the sake of discussion alone.

This can be

done through oral supplementation or topicals, like the estrogen face cream I mentioned in an earlier post. Many

women use Premarin cream (conjugated estrogens) on their faces for cosmetic reasons; I would be curious as to their

experiences with men!

I think I recall reading a study abstract wherein males were given a piece of fabric

with an estrogen analog on it, and also a control placebo treated fabric, and smelling the estrogen treated fabric

rendered an increase in testosterone levels in the male test subjects. I'll try to find that study to post here.



I am somewhat confused about "harvesting" one's natural copulins and the bacterial contamination concern.

Certainly bacteria exist at the copulin production site. What bacterium(a) adversely affect(s) copulin efficacy?

I'm not convinced that natural harvesting isn't a very viable method. Instead, my concern would be the

preservation of the harvested copulins in a fragrance base, e.g. how long could they be made effective and strong in

particular carrier vehicles.

Regarding SOE/w, I for one would certainly choose the product containing the

copulin formula that produced results in a study (Jutte), over another product with an unproven formula. I plan to

try SOE/w.

May I ask if the specific copulin formula tha Jutte used in her study was "unscented", or has the

formula since been made odorless for the SOE/w consumer market. I sort of recall that Jutte said her copulin formula

was rather malodorous.

Also, is the actual copulin formula ("recipe") in EW different from that in SOE/w?
I

realize that the EW formula must contain butyric acid to have that distinct smell.
But, I'm not so sure butyric

acid should be in a copulin mix---is it necessary??

Thanks again, JVKohl. Your replies are most helpful.

[DrSmellThis]

There is nothing in EW that is

inconsistent with perfuming, including butyric acid, which has been used in perfumes forever, long before

Love-Scent! Acetic acid is also a common perfuming ingredient, as is indole -- all EW ingredients!



You just have to have a skilled perfumer that knows how to work with "animalic" scents. No big deal. I have made

EW perfumes that smelled quite nice.

Again, there is nothing inherently repulsive about EW for perfuming --

quite the opposite.

By the way, I don't really see a problem with collecting natural copulins. Bacteria is not

really their enemy, since it has a role in their creation (I just gave an example.). It is, of course, easy to halt

bacteria anyway.

Finding out when you're ovulating is no biggie either. Women do it all the time.

[InACharmedLife]

Well, DrSmellThis, I can

at least assure you the the smell of EW is indeed inherently repulsive!

Nevertheless, that wasn't my question.

Is the copulin recipe in EW (i.e. the ingredients, percentage concentrations of each ingredient, and the ratio of

each ingredient to another) the same as in SOE/w? I realize that the copulin CONTENT in EW is probably greater than

that in SOE/w, but that's not the only issue.
Has the actual copulin formula in EW been tested, as Jutte tested a

copulin formula?
My understanding is that the butryc acid has an offensive "cheesy" stench to it. Is that

incorrect?
Is the butryc acid a necessary component in a synthetic copulin formula???

[DrSmellThis]

Perfumers know well that

smells that are "inherently repulsive" in high concentration can be the most beautiful smells of all in their

proper concentration and context.

Vanillin is repulsive in high concentration, for example, and yet is one of

the most friendly smells used in perfumes today. One of the things that make country air smell so wonderful to us

are the faint smells of skunk (also a common ingredient as a fixative in perfuming!!) and manure. We are just in

denial of that fact, just like we are in denial of the fact that we are basically monkeys. Poop is one of the most

erotic smells in proper concentration, and skatole -- one of the main smells in poop along with indole -- is also

commonly used in perfuming.

By the same token, it is not really correct to call androstenone a "repulsive

smell" either, unless you specify concentration and context as an essential part of that assessment. This

misconception is one reason why researchers just don't understand -none (like we do here ).

Concentration and

context are everything.

[DrSmellThis]

Is the

copulin recipe in EW (i.e. the ingredients, percentage concentrations of each ingredient, and the ratio of each

ingredient to another) the same as in SOE/w? I realize that the copulin CONTENT in EW is probably greater than that

in SOE/w, but that's not the only issue.
Has the actual copulin formula in EW been tested, as Jutte tested a

copulin formula?
My understanding is that the butryc acid has an offensive "cheesy" stench to it. Is that

incorrect?
Is the butryc acid a necessary component in a synthetic copulin formula???

My understanding is

that the two forumulas are somewhat different, though both are based on the Jutte formulation. The Jutte formula

doesn't contain indole, which is a wonderful perfuming ingredient and part of what makes jasmine smell erotic. I

prefer EW in this case, from a theoretical perfuming point of view, since indole really is a part of the natural

"crotch smell" -- the thing you are trying to recreate. The fact that the exact Jutte formula is the only one with a

study behind it is meaningful, but of small importance since the formulae are so close. The EW formulation would

most probably raise testosterone too. I'd be very suprised if it didn't, in fact. It just hasn't been studied

yet.

Again, the "cheezy stench" of butyric acid is a wonderful olfactory effect in its proper concentration and

place. Do you hate the smell of Parmesan Cheeze sitting on top of a plate of delicious spaghetti? You are smelling

butyric acid and loving it at that point.

There is no way I'd want EW to not contain butyric acid.



That is not to say that the relative ratios of the ingredients in EW couldn't be improved. It's a bit too

random. I'd be happy to do that for them.

[NaughtieGirl]

Charmed - Inherently

repulsive smell - YES!!!! I was experimenting last night and wondered why this stuff has to smell sooo different

from the natural copulins! You'd think that a synthetic version that is chemically identical would bear more

resemblance.


[QUOTE=DrSmellThis]
You just have to have a skilled perfumer that knows how to work with

"animalic" scents. No big deal. I have made EW perfumes that smelled quite nice.
Again, there is nothing

inherently repulsive about EW for perfuming -- quite the opposite. [QUOTE]

Dr ST - The more I read your posts,

the more I can't wait to buy some Pheros. Never mind it's intended for men. I remember in the eighties when it was

great fashion for women to wear men's designer aftershaves. In Europe at least, I don't know if that fashion ever

crossed the Atlantic.

Yes, you're right, EW can be covered up. I had made 2 - 10% dilutions. One oil-based and

one alcohol-based. Then I decided to experiment further with the more challenging of the two: the alcohol-based.



- I applied one drop and spread it over both wrists/fore-arms. Only one drop because it was the straight 10%

dilution.
- Covered one side immediately with 2 sprays of Tommy Girl because it smells like cucumber, so I had

high hopes for it.
- Waited 10 minutes and covered the other side with "Green Tea and Cucumber Essence" from Bath

& Body Works. I like it better than their "Cucumber Melon" that smells too sweet. This was my "oily" cover-up.
-

My lotion side was fine right away.
- My Tommy Girl side still stunk (stank?) so I added 2 more generous sprays. I

ended up washing it off.

My husband had had a couple of beers and the copulins just made him agitated. Guess

it was too strong.

Regarding the harvesting:
Ovulating - Yes, I at least know darn well when I'm ovulating.

I don't even have to keep track of days.
Bacterial control - I have to assume alcohol would do that.
But it

just seems like too much trouble to me. I guess I still have enough faith in the synthetic ones to take the easy

route!

[InACharmedLife]

Actually, I don't like

the smell of parmesan cheese atop spaghetti. It tastes great, but it does not smell great, to me. Certainly I don't

want to have my body smell like parmesan cheese!

I can't be sure that the difference between the EW and the

SOE/w copulin formulas is of small importance. A minor difference in a synthetic version of what is a very complex

naturally occurring substance, copulin, may indeed change it's efficacy in the field.

I am aware that minute

portions of naturally offensive scents can indeed be useful in perfumery. What makes country air smell so great is

not necessarily fresh, unadulterated manure (or skunk spray), but instead it's manure as it breaks down and

composts into rich soil. It's rain as it composts fallen leaves. It's the earthiness of organic decay, etc. It's

also the absence of the immediate expulsion of chemicals into the air, i.e. it smells better at 100 miles away from

a chemical vent hood than it does at 1 yard away from a chemical vent hood. The usually offensive natural scents are

used in adulterated fashion (as well as in minute amounts, like civet and musk), thereby altering the scent or

minimizing it such that it's real scent is indistinguishable from it's "perfume" scent. In general, unadulterated

excrement smells like excrement, and that's bad.

[InACharmedLife]

Agreed, Naughtie...EW

does NOT smell like a clean, healthy woman!
Maybe a woman with a terrible infection or STD, or without access to a

shower for about six months...it's not "crotch smell" for most women!
Maybe a female chemist should tweak EW a

bit!

[silksand]

I'm eagerly awaiting my EW,

but it sounds like the crux of the question is dilution:

Proper dilution of EW, skunk, indole, any essential

oil, whatever, does create highly attractive effects.

The collection of natural copulins might result in a

product that would have to have its intensity increased somehow, if it is it match the effectiveness of synthetic

copulins.

I tried using my own natural copulins after reading about this idea ~20 years ago. Can't say that

I noticed any particular effects, but I didn't give it as much time as I'm giving LS products now. I do think that

since the synthetics emulate a nubile young thing's copulins, they would be naturally be more potent and pleasing

than those of other premenopausal women. (envisioning copulin "farms" full of bubbly teenagers in heat ...)

[InACharmedLife]

It does seem that mixing

EW in an oil-based vehicle cuts the scent better.
I've tried one drop in a tiny vial of fragrance oil and the EW

was fairly well disguised. It still didn't smell good, but it was certainly better. Also, the fragrance oil I used

was strongly scented, not at all light. It was a spiced pumpkin fragrance.
I've also tried mixing a drop or two

of EW in vanilla body lotion, but I found the EW scent leeched through the vanilla. I think putting EW directly into

actual oil fragrances may be the better way to hide it's, err, aroma.
Not sure if doing this will reduce the

efficacy of EW; does anyone know?

[NaughtieGirl]

It

does seem that mixing EW in an oil-based vehicle cuts the scent better.

Yes, from everything I've read,

the best way to go is diluted and/or covered up with an oil base. I really do not think that covering up the smell

takes away from its effectiveness. It shouldn't really - That's one of the things about pheromones, they work

unnoticed.

Oh and if you want to read something totally bizarre about copulins. There is this Yahoo group

called "copulins". You have to request access to it and briefly explain why you would like to have access. But once

you do - You are going to fall off your chairs! Bizarre! Aimed at lowering testosterone levels in men and turning

them into meek, cooperative beings. I unsuscribed within a couple of days. Too weird.

PS Copulin Farms with

bubbly teenagers in heat! <img><img><img>

[jvkohl]

It

follows, then, that supplementing a woman's estrogen after age 35 (when estrogen levels usually begin to fall

gradually) should have a positive effect on natural copulin production.

Unfortunately, supplements

cannot mimic natural production; they can only add to estrogen: like oral contraceptives, which prevent the gradual

increase in estrogen for three days prior to ovulation, and also prevent the estrogen induced surge in luteinizing

hormone and testosterone. Of course, this means that estrogen supplements are not likely to allow for the increased

testosterone, as well as the increased testosterone's effect on the copulin concentration at ovulation.

I think I recall reading a study abstract wherein males were given a piece of fabric

with an estrogen analog on it, and also a control placebo treated fabric, and smelling the estrogen treated fabric

rendered an increase in testosterone levels in the male test subjects. I'll try to find that study to post

here.

Please do, I haven't seen anything like it.

I am somewhat

confused about "harvesting" one's natural copulins and the bacterial contamination concern. Certainly bacteria

exist at the copulin production site. What bacterium(a) adversely affect(s) copulin efficacy?

Any

buildup of the more than 40 different bacterial strains that may be unique to a particular woman's vaginal barrel,

could cause a change in the scent. However, the copulin formula used by RP Michael, Astrid Jutte, and in SoE/women

was derived from vaginal secretions without regard for bacterial content. Accordingly, any bacterium(a) might be

expected to change the ovulatory formula to something less than pleasant. The same seems likely by adding additional

compounds like indole (as in EW, or so we're told.) Why alter something that already has been tested and found to

produce good results?

Regarding SOE/w, I for one would certainly choose the

product containing the copulin formula that produced results in a study (Jutte), over another product with an

unproven formula. I plan to try SOE/w.

That makes sense to me.

May

I ask if the specific copulin formula tha Jutte used in her study was "unscented", or has the formula since been

made odorless for the SOE/w consumer market. I sort of recall that Jutte said her copulin formula was rather

malodorous.

Astrid's formula had no additional compounds added, and it was not odorless. I smelled

Astrid's formula, and the odor of it is slightly detectable in SoE/women--as could be expected, since the subtle

odor is the active ingredient. The fragrance adds conscious association to the unconscious affect of the copulins. I

don't recall Astrid making a comment about her copulin mix being malodorous, but if she did her comment might be

taken as if it were coming from any other woman--since women are not likely to find their own natural scent to be

nearly as pleasant as men who are exposed to it. (Could just be a matter of pleasant associations, nonetheless: love

me; love my vagina, perhaps.)

Also, is the actual copulin formula ("recipe") in EW

different from that in SOE/w?
I realize that the EW formula must contain butyric acid to have that distinct

smell.
But, I'm not so sure butyric acid should be in a copulin mix---is it necessary??

The

copulin formula in EW is different from that in SoE/w, but I don't know what's in EW (and don't much care). EW

stinks even when substantially diluted. I threw away the sample I received immediately, and rapidly discarded

anything close to it while in the process of developing SoE/w. Again, however, I had the rather unique opportunity

of smelling Astrid's formula, copied from RP Michael's. Every male that smelled it and commented said pretty much

the same thing. There's no missing the pleasant connection to the natural scent of a woman.



JVK

[jvkohl]

... The Jutte

formula doesn't contain indole, which is a wonderful perfuming ingredient and part of what makes jasmine smell

erotic. I prefer EW in this case, from a theoretical perfuming point of view, since indole really is a part of the

natural "crotch smell" -- the thing you are trying to recreate. The fact that the exact Jutte formula is the only

one with a study behind it is meaningful, but of small importance since the formulae are so close.

Indole is considered to be a "fecal" odor. The only association with natural "crotch smell" would be

that of proximity (vaginal/rectal). To me, this association is of major importance, since it is likely that only a

very few men find associations with fecal odor to be pleasant. Yes, I understand why indole is used in fragrance

products, but find it difficult to grasp why it would be used in a copulin product, since the copulin product

contains far fewer ingredients than do most fragrance products. When you have more ingredients to work with, it's

easier to tweak the formula in a more positive manner. Adding fecal odor to copulins leaves you with no where to

go--unless you want to alter the other active components, at which point you are no longer working with the formula

that has been tested.

JVK