Valid reasons for using steroids

[surfs_up]

Short

term use of anabolic steroids have a valid purpose. As we age, we lose our capacity to heal from ilness, wounds

close more slowly, fractures don't join as they do in the young. A brief course of steroid supplementation can do

wonders for the older adult who needs to regain normal muscle mass, improve appetite, and strengthen the immune

system. Medical doctors are well aware of these beneficial properties of steroids. Generally they will refuse to

prescribe them, primarily out of fear that they will show up on a DEA watch list of "pill doctors" and have their

license revoked. This was the same misguided

thinking that caused many doctors to refuse to adequately medicate patients for pain, often terrible pain, as the

DEA bureacracy had a model where those who legitimately needed large or long term doses of opoids were, by

definition, persons with drug abuse problems.
In the 1990s there was such an outcry from sufferers of chronic

pain conditions that a new dialog was opened between medicine and enforcement that recognized that pain was not "all

in your head" (even though, technically it is) but was a real, massively debilitating dysfunction than needed

appropriate medicine.
Today there is a similar demonization of steroids, which have been given a bad name

because of a hypercompetitive sports culture imposed on teen agers who are now suffering from an unprecedented level

and range of sports injuries normally only seen in professional competitive athletes. I would submit that the

problem isn't steroids, per se, but the professionalization, and quasi professionalization of youth sports that

puts totally unreasonable demands on youth, often poorly informed youth who have decisions forced on them by

demanding parents who want to vicariously live through their children's achievements or to confrom to group

fantasies about the prowess of youth. The tragedy is that many of these young are essentially having their teen

years stolen from them in an effort to satisfy the narcissistic demands of an older generation. Many teens will turn

to performance enhancers in order to live up to a deranged expectation which they have come to accept as physical

normality.
Prohormones and steroids have become a convenient scapegoat for a culture that doesn't want to

confront its' sins against its' children, pushing them to the point where steroids may be the only option for

gaining social approval at an age when social approval counts for everything.

[belgareth]

Another valid use of steroids

is to reduce inflamation. Crones desease and pnuemonia are both treated that way.

[satyrboy]

The steroids used for reducing

of inflammation are catabolic corticosteroids and would not be helpful for strength enhancement. (although they are

occasionally used in competitive athletics because they can mask and injury and allow one to "play hurt")



Anabolic steroids indeed have valid medical uses. I used them nearly daily when I was a burn surgeon.

[satyrboy]

Incidentally when I stated I

don't have an issue with athletes in non-tested competitions using steroids, let me clarify. Morally I wouldn't

stand in judgement of it, but I still think it's pretty stupid health wise. I wouldn't compete in a non-tested

strength event. (or if I did, it would be just to compare to my own PR's)

[MOBLEYC57]

Using for health reasons gets my

vote, but still ... they pay in the end, too! ""I"" THINK it's a lose lose sit-cha-tion. But to gamble with

your life to look big Mike Mazzarato (spelling) ... young bodybuilder ... triple bypass surgery ... he's

maybe 34. Some pay sooner than others.

Anywho .... This is Mobley's Steroid Pain tree ... as life developes.

USER

I

USER GETS SICK BECAUSE OF USE

I

I

MOTHER FATHER

I I

SISTER

BROTHER

I I

GIRLFRIEND WIFE

I

I

CHILD CHILDREN

I

I

KIN FRIENDS

I

USER

That's most of the people YOU hurt once you start paying, but in the end, YOU hurt YOU.

There's this kid in my gym ... he may be 20, but he's short, and a nice build for his size. I saw him

and his lady in Taco Hell last week, and he admitted that he's tried it. I pointed at his girlfriend, and said to

him, "you're hurting her, and you don't even know it." He looked at me funny, and I think it was because he, like

so many others, think that I use, too. Not!

Sorry, I always try NOT TO tell people what they should or

shouldn't do, but I do realize that people have a hard time seeing the BIG PICTURE.

[Holmes]

Mike Mazzarato

(spelling) ... young bodybuilder ... triple bypass surgery ... he's maybe 34. Some pay sooner than others.

Holy shit. That guy had triple bypass surgery?!

I remember him from the Cybergenics

days.

[MOBLEYC57]

Holy shit.

That guy had triple bypass surgery?!

I remember him from the Cybergenics days.

That bees dee

truth ... saw it in a mag this past weekend. If you noticed, and if you kind of look through the Muscle Mags ...

he's (Quadzilla) been out of the light for a bit. I didn't notice it until I read it.

Thing is ... if

these top bodybuilders, with doctors at their sides, are falling apart from use ... what do people think is going to

happen to those that doesn't have their personal docs!?

Tis sad, but true. They just had a discussion

on there being a steroid epidemic in America, on ESPN.

Wake up people!!!

I CARE!

[surfs_up]

Speaking from personal experience. As a middle aged guy, when I contract a nasty respiratory

infection or flu it may take a month before I fully feel like myself again. If it is mid winter, cold weather,

people sneezing and hacking all around me, possibly a couple of flus and assorted respiratory bugs. Even with a flu

shot, Tamiflu, Levaquin, the whole shooting match, a hard winter can leave you weak and run down. No energy, no

appetite, you can feel the strength and muscle mass leaving your body. Flus are more frequent and more intense as

international travel increases, the CDC doesn't have time to respond in coordination with vaccine manufacurers like

Chiron, and we are looking right down the barrel of a shotgun at worse yet. Influenza is right now the 6th leading

cause of death in the USA and probably the #1 cause of acute illness.
A short term course of an anabolic will

dramatically shorten the recovery period and enhance immune response. Assuming good health practices, as much rest

as possible, high fluid intake, you can be back on your feet and mentally clear, feeling productive instead of the

lingering malaise of depression and low motivation in about one week. That would be the equivalent of my health when

I was in my 20s.
Anabolics have an interesting short term blessing and a long term curse. Just as catabolic

steroids; cortisone, prednisone, etc. are powerfully anti-inflammatory, suppressing immune responses, anabolic

steroids are pro-inflammatory. The inflammation response IS what is needed when you have an active infection. As we

age, our immune responses falter for a number of reasons, including the loss of the thymus gland which produces an

important immune system hormone. We can't fight off infections as well, and vaccinations don't "take", our immune

system has less capacity to remember the signature of the invading foreign organism.
Much of cardiovascular

disease in now believed to have a long term inflammation component, and a blood test for this background

inflammation, C-Reactive Protein is now being included in cardiac risk profiles.
Thus, the desired, valuable,

life saving effect of inflammation is inappropriately prolonged in the high dose anabolic abuser, opening the way to

vascular injury.

[cig3f]

1234567890

[surfs_up]

This is a poor analogy... scuba diving is risky, divers know that it is risky, but many people scuba

dive. Certification involves training so you know what the risk factors are and what you must do to avoid them. Only

a fool would dive without knowing how to calculate decompression. Hop on a plane without allowing sufficient hours

to desaturate your blood from residual nitrogen and you will experience serious decompression sickness while

airborne. This has actually happened to divers whose dive computers malfunctioned and they were too obtuse to double

check their blood gasses against a dive table. Even when the computers gave obviously unrealistic "time to fly"

schedules, like 6 hours when 30 hours would be expected. Fortunately this doesn't happen too often because divers

are pretty well trained in managing risks. The bodybuilding industry hasn't accepted anything close to the level of

responsibility for safety that the scuba diving industry has, as a result the field is littered with casualties. If

scuba divers dove with the same cavalier attitude that bodybuilders have there would be no divers left in short

order.

[MOBLEYC57]

If scuba divers

dove with the same cavalier attitude that bodybuilders have there would be no divers left in short order.

I

could even understand bodybuilders that MADE money taking the risk ... money does that. Money worked wonders for

Arnold, who had enough of it to have bypass surgery, but for the sake of just walking around huge?



I agree with you, SUp.

[Holmes]

This is a poor

analogy... scuba diving is risky, divers know that it is risky, but many people scuba dive. Certification involves

training so you know what the risk factors are and what you must do to avoid them. Only a fool would dive without

knowing how to calculate decompression. Hop on a plane without allowing sufficient hours to desaturate your blood

from residual nitrogen and you will experience serious decompression sickness while airborne. This has actually

happened to divers whose dive computers malfunctioned and they were too obtuse to double check their blood gasses

against a dive table. Even when the computers gave obviously unrealistic "time to fly" schedules, like 6 hours when

30 hours would be expected. Fortunately this doesn't happen too often because divers are pretty well trained in

managing risks. The bodybuilding industry hasn't accepted anything close to the level of responsibility for safety

that the scuba diving industry has, as a result the field is littered with casualties. If scuba divers dove with the

same cavalier attitude that bodybuilders have there would be no divers left in short order.

In short,

curbing juice use can do divers good for one's well-being.

[MOBLEYC57]

In short, curbing

juice use can do divers good for one's well-being.

<HOLMES>

[surfs_up]

if he had bypass surgery... he has his special tent outside of his office to allow him to smoke his

cigars when the nic fit takes him... so, I assume he is either suicidal, hoplessly addicted to nicotine, or never

had bypass surgery. There were rumors in the '90s that Arnold has multiple organ injuries from heavy roid use, was

living out of a clinic in Switzerland where they put him back together.... its the methyl testosterone that gets you

bad right in the liver... however, nobody knows for sure, could have even had a transplant for all we know.

[ManBeast]

Valentino is disgusting.... so

is that "klaus" character (i think that's his name) there is a huge difference between steroids and injecting oil

under and into a muscle to make it look better...

I can find many valid reasons for steroid use... like any

drug they are only a problem when ABused...

MB

[MOBLEYC57]

Valentino is

disgusting.... so is that "klaus" character (i think that's his name) there is a huge difference between steroids

and injecting oil under and into a muscle to make it look better...MB

In his case, and like so many

others, he's making money. For lots, that's a valid reason ... just not me.

I can find many

valid reasons for steroid use... like any drug they are only a problem when ABused...
MB

For the sake of

good health and all the family and friends that gets mentally hurt/involved when things go wrong with the

user/abuser, ManBeast ... I don't THINK you're right, BUT, I SURE HOPE you are.

[ManBeast]

I've got symmetry... probably

the second best in my household (4/5 of us lift) but I'm overweight somewhat too... But in terms of "proportional"

lifts, My squat is the best compared to my bench... so I'm happy... it *does* suck sometimes to have to buy

shorts/pants one waist size too big to prevent my cellphone from looking innapropriate in my pockets though....



MB

[PHP 87]

I'll be turning 45 this month and

have been considering using a presciption Testosterone gel such as Derma-Test 100 Testosterone Gel that I can

purchase from an reputable internet pharmacy.

I don't want to do any of the injectables, and the transdermal

method seems somewhat effective.

What are the pro's and con's?

Thanks.

Product

Description:

Derma-test 100, Testosterone gel is a recently developed testosterone product. It is a clear,

colorless hydro alcoholic gel containing 10% testosterone, and provides continuous trans-dermal delivery of

testosterone for 24 hours following a single application. It provides a non-invasive method of application along

with a consistent level of testosterone absorption. A daily application of Testosterone Gel delivers 100 mg of

testosterone per gram, per day, to the skin's surface. Testosterone gel is designed to release testosterone in a

varying level, over a 24 hours period. This is to mimic the natural (uneven) pattern of a healthy young man, with

peaks and lows throughout the duration producing circulating testosterone concentrations that approximate normal

levels (598 -1043 mg/ml).

This product is quite different from previous testosterone delivery mechanisms such

as patches, which are designed for application on the shaved scrotal area (obviously not a comfortable

practice).

As with all testosterone products it has a strong anabolic activity, with a pronounced androgenic

component. Thus it can provide significant gains in strength and muscle mass, as well a noticeable increase in

libido.

The recommended starting dose of testosterone gel 10% is one gram (to deliver 100 mg of testosterone)

applied once daily (preferably in the morning) to clean, dry, intact skin of the abdomen.

After a few weeks

of daily application, a relatively steady state blood testosterone level is generally attained, typically in the

region of 800mg/ml. Though some doctors prescribe twice-a-day application, many feel that once-a day delivers a more

natural effect. This application occurs first thing in the morning to mimic the body's normal early morning rise in

testosterone. Application to areas of the skin that have a layer of fat under them will slow the release of the

testosterone so that blood levels are maintained longer. It is also recommended that the sites of application around

the body are rotated so that optimal absorption is maintained. The best application areas include the chest, abdomen

or inner thigh.

[BizmanJoe]

I'll be turning 45 this month and have been considering using a presciption

Testosterone gel such as Derma-Test 100 Testosterone Gel that I can purchase from an reputable internet pharmacy.



I don't want to do any of the injectables, and the transdermal method seems somewhat effective.

What are the

pro's and con's?

Thanks.

Product Description:

Derma-test 100, Testosterone gel is a recently developed

testosterone product. It is a clear, colorless hydro alcoholic gel containing 10% testosterone, and provides

continuous trans-dermal delivery of testosterone for 24 hours following a single application. It provides a

non-invasive method of application along with a consistent level of testosterone absorption. A daily application of

Testosterone Gel delivers 100 mg of testosterone per gram, per day, to the skin's surface. Testosterone gel is

designed to release testosterone in a varying level, over a 24 hours period. This is to mimic the natural (uneven)

pattern of a healthy young man, with peaks and lows throughout the duration producing circulating testosterone

concentrations that approximate normal levels (598 -1043 mg/ml).

This product is quite different from previous

testosterone delivery mechanisms such as patches, which are designed for application on the shaved scrotal area

(obviously not a comfortable practice).

As with all testosterone products it has a strong anabolic activity,

with a pronounced androgenic component. Thus it can provide significant gains in strength and muscle mass, as well a

noticeable increase in libido.

The recommended starting dose of testosterone gel 10% is one gram (to deliver 100

mg of testosterone) applied once daily (preferably in the morning) to clean, dry, intact skin of the abdomen.



After a few weeks of daily application, a relatively steady state blood testosterone level is generally attained,

typically in the region of 800mg/ml. Though some doctors prescribe twice-a-day application, many feel that once-a

day delivers a more natural effect. This application occurs first thing in the morning to mimic the body's normal

early morning rise in testosterone. Application to areas of the skin that have a layer of fat under them will slow

the release of the testosterone so that blood levels are maintained longer. It is also recommended that the sites of

application around the body are rotated so that optimal absorption is maintained. The best application areas include

the chest, abdomen or inner thigh.

Well, if it is a synthetic form of testosterone, then it will

ultimately lead to a lowered production of your natural test. When your hypothalamus senses that you have synthetic

test in your blood serum, it'll signal your pituitary to lower production of leutenizing hormone (LH) which will

then signal your testicls to produce less natural testosterone. One way to bypass this is to take natural compounds

that will ENHANCE natural test poduction. Try taking Bulgarian Tribulus (Tribex), Tonkat Ali (RedKat)
and some DHEA

(25 - 50mg) to enhance natural test production.

[gabe1970]

Well, if it is a synthetic form of testosterone, then it will ultimately lead to a lowered

production of your natural test... Try taking ...some DHEA (25 - 50mg) to enhance natural test

production.

DHEA also concurrently raises estrogen levels while some of the more modern supplements do

not. And the dosage taken is not strictly 25-50mg - it depends on your own T levels and age. For example I used to

take 200mg/day in my twenties and it was a total waste of money, unless you like sore nipples. I'm on the

way out the door and will have to post more details later.

[BizmanJoe]

DHEA also concurrently raises estrogen levels while some of the more modern supplements do not. And

the dosage taken is not strictly 25-50mg - it depends on your own T levels and age. For example I used to take

200mg/day in my twenties and it was a total waste of money, unless you like sore nipples. I'm on the way out

the door and will have to post more details later.

Well, no wonder you had sore nipples! 200mg

of DHEA is way too much for someone in their 20's - if you had kept it up you would have ended up with bitch tits

from all the conversion of excess test to estrogen and a bald head from conversion to DHT, not to mention excess

bodyweight and water retention from the excess estrogen.

Yes, DHEA is also known as the master precursor hormone

because your body will utilize it to create other hormones as necessary.

The solution is simple: If you want to

keep the estrogen conversion down or eliminate it altogether from high doses of DHEA, you need to also take an

anti-aromatase such as Novedex XT or 17-oxo Nolone or 6 -oxo and a hoot more that are on the market. Choices are

many. Try reading up bodybuilding supplement forums - there's a lot of good info and personal experiences out there

regarding PCT (post cycle therapy) for people doing steroids or prohormones.

To prevent DHT conversion which

leads to hairloss you can also add Saw Palmetto + Pumpkin Seed extract + FoTi (He Shou Wu).

To make use of all

the extra test in blood serum, one simple herb you can use is Avena Saitva (Green Oats) - it binds with SHBG

(sex-hormone binding globulins) and allows your body to make use of the excess serum testosterone.

There's alot

more that can be learned from Life Extension and other health related magazines as well as the myriads of websites.

I'm no expert, but I have to keep up to date because I manage a supplement store and am working toward a

Naturopathic Doctor's degree.

[gabe1970]

Well, if it is a synthetic form of testosterone, then it will ultimately lead to a lowered

production of your natural test... One way to bypass this is to take natural compounds that will ENHANCE natural

test poduction. Try taking Bulgarian Tribulus (Tribex), Tonkat Ali (RedKat) and some DHEA (25 - 50mg) to enhance

natural test production.

For males, the main problem with raising T levels through DHEA suplementation is

two-fold. The primary problem is that your body tries to maintain a state of homeostasis or balance by raising

levels of estrogen, progesterone, and other hormones. The second problem is the resultant raised production of

progesterone and prolactin. These two hormones are what i call "manliness-killers".

Prolactone is what makes

you lactate. Simply put, do ya'll REALLY want to be able to breastfeed? Well allrighty then... NOW if you

want to elevate T and decrease E, DHEA by
itself isn't going to cut it. Eurycoma might help since it may

possibly regulate the conversion of DHEA into T. The correct ratio of Euycoma to DHEA dosing is anybodys guess

though. The other supplements mentioned in a previous post -Tribulus Terrestris (gokshura) and Tonkat Ali (also

spelled Togkat,
technically named Eurycoma longifolia) are well-researched herbs. I agree - I'd strongly lean

towards these substances as opposed to using DHEA, even though the jury is still out on their effectiveness. why?

Let me first show you the one reason why
I would choose unproven herbs over DHEA...

Life Extension Magazine

January 1996 - "How To Prevent Breast Cancer"

DHEA Boosts Estrogen Levels
(um, that line says it

all. But here's the rest of the article, anyhow)
DHEA replacement therapy is another natural way of

replacing estrogen levels diminished by the aging process. DHEA
(Dehydroepiandrosterone) is a precursor to the sex

hormones. It is transformed into estrogen, progesterone, and testosterone within the body, all of which are needed

at youthful levels to avoid the deterioration of aging. One problem with taking DHEA to replace depleted sex

hormones is that the ratio of these hormones converted from DHEA is uncertain. A better way of controlling the

amounts of each hormone within your body is to
supplement them specifically.
---
Sore nipples, anyone? And MEN,

if you're REALLY worried about breast cancer... well, I won't touch that...ladies.


---
See



http://www.lef.org/protocols/metabolic_health/dhea_r

estoration_01.htm

if you want a cutting edge protocol for use of this supplement. If for some reason you insist

on using DHEA, (or
ave already bought a ton of it)I would at least add an estrogen inhibitor to my supplement

stack, but be concious of the fact that DHEA will definitely raise your hormones, while the only proven E inhibitors

are (questionably safe?) drugs like Nolvadex. Search on



http://www.testosterone.net or



http://www.bodybuilding.com for details on Nolvadex.

And Yes, DHEA

supplementation has countless reported benefits for both men and women like blah blah blah... Go

ahead and roll the dice yourself if you're still sold on it. And yeah, I already know that the side effects tend

to be dismissed as "minor". Helllooooo, heart palpitations are not "minor" - they're probable precursors to MI's

and other significant EKG changes like in our old buddy Mike ("Cybergenics posterboy") Matarrazzo. And if that

happens while you're doing anything the least bit athletic or risky, a "minor" palpitation can lead to accidents

and mistakes, which could in and of themselves be more immediately
catastrophic than most MI's.

See

http://www.raysahelian.com/dhea.html for the CV side effects and

also



http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/dh

ea.html

for an outright dismissal of DHEA 's purported benefits. Disclaimer: Ray Sahelian, M.D. is a

side-effects-Nazi. IMHO the dude would strongly caution against eating
ice cream because it

might cause a frigging headache. Anyhow...
---
Oh and before I forget, you can check your own T and

hormone levels using a kit called Androcheck. The cost was about $25 per hormone the last time that i checked.

It's been awhile.
---
On to the herbs...
Tribulus- I started writing and searching for citations to use, and

then realized that there's a great
wiki up already, and i don't want to re-
invent the wheel. In sum, most

people think it works through a different cascade than DHEA, and but there are contradictory studies out there

(just like any other medicinal substance) Read more about it at



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tribulus_terrestris



Eurycoma's Non-sexual Side effects may include sleeplessness, a high body temp, prostate enlargement, and

generalized bitchiness. (yes, my words...) Peer reviewed abstracts regarding this herb can are on Pubmed:



http://ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=search&db=

pubmed&term=(eurycoma+longifolia)

In sum: It supposedly raises T in some people, and makes you really frigging

horny. i've read bout people getting zits, too.

---
I can't really vouch for anything in lieu of DHEA, but i

will be able to provide some feedback on my experiences in a few weeks. The supplement i will be taking is

called...

and y'all will love this...

it's called Alpha

Male.
Its a shotgun combination of the above
listed herbs (plus one more), made by Biotest.



Biotest has a great reputation and a horde of fanboy-zealots (like Apple computers) but the research isn't 100%

convincing or applicable to
everyone. No, i'm not connected to the
company in any way, but you can read more

about Alpha male at http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=1054351

[BizmanJoe]

For

males, the main problem with raising T levels through DHEA suplementation is two-fold. The primary problem is that

your body tries to maintain a state of homeostasis or balance by raising levels of estrogen, progesterone, and other

hormones. The second problem is the resultant raised production of progesterone and prolactin. These two hormones

are what i call "manliness-killers".

Prolactone is what makes you lactate. Simply put, do ya'll REALLY want to

be able to breastfeed? Well allrighty then... NOW if you want to elevate T and decrease E, DHEA by


itself isn't going to cut it. Eurycoma might help since it may possibly regulate the conversion of

DHEA into T. The correct ratio of Euycoma to DHEA dosing is anybodys guess though. The other supplements mentioned

in a previous post -Tribulus Terrestris (gokshura) and Tonkat Ali (also spelled Togkat,
technically named Eurycoma

longifolia) are well-researched herbs. I agree - I'd strongly lean towards these substances as opposed to using

DHEA, even though the jury is still out on their effectiveness. why? Let me first show you the one reason why
I

would choose unproven herbs over DHEA...

Life Extension Magazine January 1996 - "How To Prevent Breast Cancer"



DHEA Boosts Estrogen Levels
(um, that line says it all. But here's the rest of the article,

anyhow)
DHEA replacement therapy is another natural way of replacing estrogen levels diminished by the aging

process. DHEA
(Dehydroepiandrosterone) is a precursor to the sex hormones. It is transformed into estrogen,

progesterone, and testosterone within the body, all of which are needed at youthful levels to avoid the

deterioration of aging. One problem with taking DHEA to replace depleted sex hormones is that the ratio of these

hormones converted from DHEA is uncertain. A better way of controlling the amounts of each hormone within your body

is to
supplement them specifically.
---
Sore nipples, anyone? And MEN, if you're REALLY worried about

breast cancer... well, I won't touch that...ladies.
---
See



http://www.lef.org/protocols/metabolic_health/dhea_res

toration_01.htm

if you want a cutting edge protocol for use of this supplement. If for some reason you insist

on using DHEA, (or
ave already bought a ton of it)I would at least add an estrogen inhibitor to my supplement

stack, but be concious of the fact that DHEA will definitely raise your hormones, while the only proven E inhibitors

are (questionably safe?) drugs like Nolvadex. Search on



http://www.testosterone.net or



http://www.bodybuilding.com for details on Nolvadex.

And Yes, DHEA

supplementation has countless reported benefits for both men and women like blah blah blah... Go

ahead and roll the dice yourself if you're still sold on it. And yeah, I already know that the side effects tend to

be dismissed as "minor". Helllooooo, heart palpitations are not "minor" - they're probable precursors to MI's and

other significant EKG changes like in our old buddy Mike ("Cybergenics posterboy") Matarrazzo. And if that happens

while you're doing anything the least bit athletic or risky, a "minor" palpitation can lead to accidents and

mistakes, which could in and of themselves be more immediately
catastrophic than most MI's.

See

http://www.raysahelian.com/dhea.html for the CV side effects and

also



http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/dhea

.html

for an outright dismissal of DHEA 's purported benefits. Disclaimer: Ray Sahelian, M.D. is a

side-effects-Nazi. IMHO the dude would strongly caution against eating
ice cream because it

might cause a frigging headache. Anyhow...
---
Oh and before I forget, you can check your own T and hormone

levels using a kit called Androcheck. The cost was about $25 per hormone the last time that i checked. It's been

awhile.
---
On to the herbs...
Tribulus- I started writing and searching for citations to use, and then realized

that there's a great
wiki up already, and i don't want to re-
invent the wheel. In sum, most people think it

works through a different cascade than DHEA, and but there are contradictory studies out there (just like any other

medicinal substance) Read more about it at



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tribulus_terrestris



Eurycoma's Non-sexual Side effects may include sleeplessness, a high body temp, prostate enlargement, and

generalized bitchiness. (yes, my words...) Peer reviewed abstracts regarding this herb can are on Pubmed:



http://ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=search&db=pu

bmed&term=(eurycoma+longifolia)

In sum: It supposedly raises T in some people, and makes you really frigging

horny. i've read bout people getting zits, too.

---
I can't really vouch for anything in lieu of DHEA, but i

will be able to provide some feedback on my experiences in a few weeks. The supplement i will be taking is called...



and y'all will love this...

it's called Alpha Male.


Its a shotgun combination of the above
listed herbs (plus one more), made by Biotest.

Biotest has a great

reputation and a horde of fanboy-zealots (like Apple computers) but the research isn't 100% convincing or

applicable to
everyone. No, i'm not connected to the
company in any way, but you can read more about Alpha male

at

http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=1054351

Good post! Looks like you did your homwork.

[gabe1970]

Good

post! Looks like you did your homwork.

Thanks - my grandfather is a naturopath and an herbalist.

I've learned quite a bit from him. PreMed, Biochem, and my chemistry minor also help -- that and being a PubMed

Addict.

I'm doen with this thread! No more! No more, I say!!

[MOBLEYC57]

The supplement

i will be taking is called...

and y'all will love this...

it's called Alpha Male. Its a shotgun combination of the above listed herbs (plus one

more), made by Biotest.

Biotest has a great reputation and a horde of fanboy-zealots (like Apple computers) but

the research isn't 100% convincing or applicable to
everyone. No, i'm not connected to the company in any way,

but you can read more about Alpha male at

http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=1054351

Gabe, since we've/I've heard nothing from you on ALPHA MALE .... STUD or DUD?

[surfs_up]

LEF (life extension foundation) offers the most accessible, quality controlled

private choice testing.... and so who is surprised that the "health care" industry has been working overtime, and

laughably without success, to shut them down.

Regardless of what you're stuffing your pipes with, obtain the

basic battery of tests... they do fantastic hormone workups...

Excellent chioice of blood lipid studies as

well...

One thing nobody discusses, my own doc thought I was nuts UNTIL we ran the test... is red blood

cell magnesium .... not, I repeat, not the cheaper, and now known to be useless serum magnesium

test... American diets tend to magnesium deficiency, which must be in the correct ratio with phosphorus and

calcium.... it the Ca-Mg-P triangle is out of balance, many thing may appear that are hard to diagnose... muscle

soreness (the had me on strong muscle relaxers that made me really spaced out and depressed), poor concentration,

low energy....

They also now know that there are a wide range of inflammation triggers that interact with the

blood lipids to cause disease, which is why some folks with "bad numbers" do OK, and some folks with "good numbers"

drop dead...

Some of these factors are C Reactive Protein, Homocysteine, Fibrinogen... and a wide range of

cytokines (fever triggering and tissue swelling factors) like TNF-alpha...

You NEED to look at the whole

picture, hormone chemisty is one important part of the whole, but there are many other elements too... low grade

chronic inflammation may be one of the central components in aging and tissue failue, for example a recent study has

shown that diseased artery tissue appears to be highly aged at a microscopic level, you can have 30 year old skin

but 70 year old arteries.... meaning the arterial lining DNA has worn down to the level of a 70 year old...



The #1 culprit here so far as we know is "toxic dietary fat" that has been altered by heat and oxidation...

the worst known source of these fat-toxins is the ordinary french fry potato stick... many crispy fried chips,

comfort foods, deep fried battered meats, and the like present a serious health risk.... the maximum combination for

playing Russian Roulette would be to use anabolics in combination with a fast food diet...

[gabe1970]

Gabe, since

we've/I've heard nothing from you on ALPHA MALE .... STUD or DUD?

Had financial issues but

you're timing is amazing. Finally ordering it tonight.

[seduceme]

After some quick

googling
http://www.elitefitness.com/articled...id-special.avi
([

url]http://www.xvidmovies.com/codec/[/url] for those who need codec)

Not to mention the non anabolic or

androgenic steroids such as glucocorticoids who besides their already mentioned anti-inflammatory properties also

aid in saving infants lives by developing their lungs so they wont collapse when they are born prematurely.



As for bodybuilders including Arnold, they are walking pharmacies and cannot be parallelled to the average

highschoolfootball abuser. Sideffects of anabolic androgenic steroids are dosedependant.

[gabe1970]

I know this thread is old and

practically dead, but y'all should really stick to posting about pheromones on this forum. How many of you have

USED steroids, and have both the knowledge and experience to back up ANYTHING you've written OR read about? You're

like armchair generals - arrggghhh - I should stop now.
But Damn.

[belgareth]

I know this

thread is old and practically dead, but y'all should really stick to posting about pheromones on this forum. How

many of you have USED steroids, and have both the knowledge and experience to back up ANYTHING you've written OR

read about? You're like armchair generals - arrggghhh - I should stop now.
But Damn.

This

particular forum was created to discuss health issues and steroids certanly qualify under that heading. having used

a substance does not qualify you as an expert either. If that were the case I could be qualified to lecture on a

long list of substances.