Valid reasons for using steroids

[belgareth]

You are the one that

reincarnated a thread that was dead for six months? What's your problem?

You are entitled to an opinion, IMHO.

But I am not qualified to lecture about anything, especially safety or proper use, just because I've done it, no

more than a wino is qualified to lecture on alcoholism prevention or the intricities of liver disease.

We allow

this crap to be posted here because the intent isn't to control, it's to allow the open flow of information and

opinions. Your opinions are welcomed as well, even if somebody comes on and tells us they are crap or that you are

an ignoramus. Anybody would be wise to check with other resources before believing anything on any page of any

forum. We are not censors or your mother and you are responsible for researching what you read anywhere.

That

link you posted may well be a good site but should be regarded the same way, with a mountain of scepticism. Other

good resources would include your physician, the Center for Disease Control and the National Institute of Health.

There are probably good resources in Europe as well.

[gabe1970]

You are the

one that reincarnated a thread that was dead for six months? What's your problem?

The problem -

not my problem - is that the thread was still visible and accessible for others to view in the future without

a shred of criticism ever having been expressed until I viewed it. The thread might have been "dead", but like any

diseased carcass, it should have been burned and buried.

Perhaps I should have been more polite in

my postings, so I will be a little more polite now, just so that my message is clear

...

http://www.testosterone.net has users that are as well versed on

the "pros and cons" and "how's and why's" of steroid use, as users of THIS forum are concerning pheromones. If

you need advice on that topic, and are willing to follow up on answers to your question with your own research, that

is the place to start. On that forum you can expect to be drilled on your health and training background, as well

as your intentions and goals. If you don't know wtf you're talking about, and don't ask intelligent questions,

you will be called on it, warned off, and/or simply ignored by the more relevant forum members. If you're not

prepared for this, don't go there.


And Belgareth, I'm struggling to be polite here... anyone who

doesn't listen to the words of an alcoholic (or "wino", as you called them) who volunteers to warn people about the

dangers of alcoholism and cirrhosis of the liver based upon their own experiences - might just be dooming themself

to relive those experiences themselves.

[belgareth]

The

problem - not my problem - is that the thread was still visible and accessible for others to view in the

future without a shred of criticism ever having been expressed until I viewed it. The thread might have been "dead",

but like any diseased carcass, it should have been burned and buried.

Perhaps I should have been more

polite in my postings, but I obviously thought it wasn't appropriate, considering the seriousness of the topic and

how it was not addressed. I will be a little more polite now, just so that my message is clear:



http://www.testosterone.net has users that are as well versed on the

"pros and cons" and "how's and why's" of steroid use, as users of THIS forum are concerning pheromones. If you

need advice on that topic, and are willing to follow up on answers to your question with your own research, that is

the place to start. On that forum you can expect to be drilled on your health and training background, as well as

your intentions and goals. If you don't know wtf you're talking about, and don't ask intelligent questions, you

will be called on it, warned off, and/or simply ignored by the more relevant forum members. If you're not prepared

for this, don't go there.

And Belgareth? This is not about control or censorship, it's about responsibility.

You seem to be more upset about my posting the word "ignoramus" than the idiocy of the thread itself. You know that

you have minors who read this site - and I may have missed it - but until my "reincarnation" and your most recent

posting, I didn't see a single warning or disclaimer anywhere near this thread that stated the posters were not

experts and that their opinions were to be taken with a grain of salt.

And anyone who doesn't listen to the

words of an alcoholic (or "wino", as you called them) who volunteers to warn people about the dangers of alcoholism

and cirrhosis of the liver -- is a frigging moron.

So Belgareth, What's your problem?

My

problem is your attitude. You are always welcome to come here and post. But you can behave in a civil manner when

you do so. I don't think the basics of civilized behavoir need to be explained to each and every person.

No, it

shouldn't have been burned or buried. I hear whining of censorship from one group when we limit topics, I hear

whining from another group when we don't limit topics. Frankly, I don't care if you like it or the other groups

like it, I am doing the job I agreed to do and you can work within the limits of that. If that's a problem, leave.

If it isn't stay. I don't care.

I agree that there are no disclaimers about the expertise of posters here. Are

you so gullible that you believe everything you read? Personally, I am strongly opposed to the use of steroids and

have strong belieffs about anybody using them but do not push my opinions here or elsewhere. It has been established

that an internet forum like this is all opinions, including what you or I say. Take it, and every other internet

forum that way, you'll be a lot better off. As for the teenagers reading this forum, the products you are

discussing are illegal, are they not? I don't know but if they are, or if the methodology of use, such as

injection, is illegal, then the other sites should be banned and burned as well by those standards.

[gabe1970]

My problem is

your attitude.

I don't know if you realize You're quoting things that I edited out of my post almost

immediately after I posted them. I apologize for writing that, I sanitized it when I realized what a jerk I

sounded like, and I don't even know how you were able to read that. My attitude was about as lame as your attitude

towards steroids. "If it's illegal we shouldn't discuss it" IS a good idea, but it's moot. If you are going to

allow the discussion of something that is illegal and dangerous, some balance and precautions should be presented.

Since they were not presented in the thread I came across, that's what I did. That's what I'm doing now. Did I do

it with an attitude? Hell yes. Then I erased all the angry words that I wrote. I'm sorry that you saw it because

after reading it, it doesn't look like I respect your opinions. But I won't apologize for getting ticked off.

Frankly, I don't care if you like it or the other groups like it, I am doing

the job I agreed to do and you can work within the limits of that. If that's a problem, leave. If it isn't stay. I

don't care.

It sounds like you do care, and that's all well and good - but how am I not "working

within the limits of that"?

Again, my message is:

http://www.testosterone.net has users that are as well versed on the "pros

and cons" and "how's and why's" of steroid use, as users of THIS forum are concerning pheromones. If you need

advice on that topic, and are willing to follow up on answers to your question with your own research, that is the

place to start.

[belgareth]

I quoted them when they were

still in your post is why they are still in my quote. Your apology is accepted, we all get ticked off now and then.



You misunderstand my attitude about steroids. My remarks were about your apparent attitude that they shouldn't

be talked about. Personally I feel censorship is wrong in every case. I also do not agree with the laws regarding

steroids or drug use in general. But that's all off the topic. The topic is steroid use. If you have something

useful to say about how to use them or whether a person should or should not use them, please feel free to post an

entire encyclopedia here. But DO NOT ask, demand or expect me or any other moderator to act as censors because you

feel it shouldn't be discussed.

To be clear, I don't use steroids or drugs in general. That's a personal

choice because I don't choose to do that to my body or mind. What you or somebody else chooses to do to your own

body or mind is entirely up to you.

[BizmanJoe]

Steroids

are not safe, especially if you are younger than 21 or older than 35. At the younger extreme, growth stunting will

occur due to premature closing of the bone gap. At the older extreme, it can induce cancer and heart disease due to

a naturally weaker immune system (part of the aging process). All steroids are known to cause a decrease in HDL and

hardening of the arteries, leading to athrosclerosis... aside from throwing the hypothalamus and pituitary and

testicular axis totally out of whack (ever hear of bitch tits?). I've known someone who's liver developed a tumor

the size of a baseball from steroid usage... and Mike Matarazzo, an upcoming bodybuilder no more, had to undergo

open heart surgery just recently at only 32 years of age due to steroid usage. Just my 2 cents.

[gabe1970]

Steroids are not safe, especially if you are younger than 21 or older than 35. At the younger

extreme, growth stunting will occur due to premature closing of the bone gap. At the older extreme, it can induce

cancer and heart disease due to a naturally weaker immune system (part of the aging process). All steroids are known

to cause a decrease in HDL and hardening of the arteries, leading to athrosclerosis... aside from throwing the

hypothalamus and pituitary and testicular axis totally out of whack (ever hear of bitch tits?). I've known someone

who's liver developed a tumor the size of a baseball from steroid usage... and Mike Matarazzo, an upcoming

bodybuilder no more, had to undergo open heart surgery just recently at only 32 years of age due to steroid usage.

Just my 2 cents.

I'm tapping out on this thread while I still can.

[BizmanJoe]

I'll be turning 45 this month and have been considering using a presciption

Testosterone gel such as Derma-Test 100 Testosterone Gel that I can purchase from an reputable internet pharmacy.



I don't want to do any of the injectables, and the transdermal method seems somewhat effective.

What are the

pro's and con's?

Thanks.

Product Description:

Derma-test 100, Testosterone gel is a recently developed

testosterone product. It is a clear, colorless hydro alcoholic gel containing 10% testosterone, and provides

continuous trans-dermal delivery of testosterone for 24 hours following a single application. It provides a

non-invasive method of application along with a consistent level of testosterone absorption. A daily application of

Testosterone Gel delivers 100 mg of testosterone per gram, per day, to the skin's surface. Testosterone gel is

designed to release testosterone in a varying level, over a 24 hours period. This is to mimic the natural (uneven)

pattern of a healthy young man, with peaks and lows throughout the duration producing circulating testosterone

concentrations that approximate normal levels (598 -1043 mg/ml).

This product is quite different from previous

testosterone delivery mechanisms such as patches, which are designed for application on the shaved scrotal area

(obviously not a comfortable practice).

As with all testosterone products it has a strong anabolic activity,

with a pronounced androgenic component. Thus it can provide significant gains in strength and muscle mass, as well a

noticeable increase in libido.

The recommended starting dose of testosterone gel 10% is one gram (to deliver 100

mg of testosterone) applied once daily (preferably in the morning) to clean, dry, intact skin of the abdomen.



After a few weeks of daily application, a relatively steady state blood testosterone level is generally attained,

typically in the region of 800mg/ml. Though some doctors prescribe twice-a-day application, many feel that once-a

day delivers a more natural effect. This application occurs first thing in the morning to mimic the body's normal

early morning rise in testosterone. Application to areas of the skin that have a layer of fat under them will slow

the release of the testosterone so that blood levels are maintained longer. It is also recommended that the sites of

application around the body are rotated so that optimal absorption is maintained. The best application areas include

the chest, abdomen or inner thigh.

Well, if it is a synthetic form of testosterone, then it will

ultimately lead to a lowered production of your natural test. When your hypothalamus senses that you have synthetic

test in your blood serum, it'll signal your pituitary to lower production of leutenizing hormone (LH) which will

then signal your testicls to produce less natural testosterone. One way to bypass this is to take natural compounds

that will ENHANCE natural test poduction. Try taking Bulgarian Tribulus (Tribex), Tonkat Ali (RedKat)
and some DHEA

(25 - 50mg) to enhance natural test production.

[gabe1970]

Well, if it is a synthetic form of testosterone, then it will ultimately lead to a lowered

production of your natural test... Try taking ...some DHEA (25 - 50mg) to enhance natural test

production.

DHEA also concurrently raises estrogen levels while some of the more modern supplements do

not. And the dosage taken is not strictly 25-50mg - it depends on your own T levels and age. For example I used to

take 200mg/day in my twenties and it was a total waste of money, unless you like sore nipples. I'm on the

way out the door and will have to post more details later.

[Holmes]

Steroids are not

safe, especially if you are younger than 21 or older than 35. At the younger extreme, growth stunting will occur due

to premature closing of the bone gap. At the older extreme, it can induce cancer and heart disease due to a

naturally weaker immune system (part of the aging process). All steroids are known to cause a decrease in HDL and

hardening of the arteries, leading to athrosclerosis... aside from throwing the hypothalamus and pituitary and

testicular axis totally out of whack (ever hear of bitch tits?). I've known someone who's liver developed a tumor

the size of a baseball from steroid usage... and Mike Matarazzo, an upcoming bodybuilder no more, had to undergo

open heart surgery just recently at only 32 years of age due to steroid usage. Just my 2 cents.

I

forgot about Mike "Quadzilla" Matarazzo. Wasn't he the guy who was pushing Cybergenics ten years ago?

[gabe1970]

Mike Matarazzo, an upcoming bodybuilder no more, had to undergo open heart surgery just recently

at only 32 years of age due to steroid usage.

His comparably mild, supposedly sporadic use of steroids

were a significant factor, but they were arguably not the deciding one. the man was on Lipitor. He had

negative stress tests. His biannual blood tests came back CLEAN. But not only did he have high cholesterol (which is

not necessarily diet dependant, and...) The man used to eat 5 ½ pounds of

red meat daily.

With a predisposition for high

cholesterol, you can't expect to eat a whole cow every week and not have an MI. Duh! I say it again

"Duh!"

(And I thought he was 39.)

[gabe1970]

Well, if it is a synthetic form of testosterone, then it will ultimately lead to a lowered

production of your natural test... One way to bypass this is to take natural compounds that will ENHANCE natural

test poduction. Try taking Bulgarian Tribulus (Tribex), Tonkat Ali (RedKat) and some DHEA (25 - 50mg) to enhance

natural test production.

For males, the main problem with raising T levels through DHEA suplementation is

two-fold. The primary problem is that your body tries to maintain a state of homeostasis or balance by raising

levels of estrogen, progesterone, and other hormones. The second problem is the resultant raised production of

progesterone and prolactin. These two hormones are what i call "manliness-killers".

Prolactone is what makes

you lactate. Simply put, do ya'll REALLY want to be able to breastfeed? Well allrighty then... NOW if you

want to elevate T and decrease E, DHEA by
itself isn't going to cut it. Eurycoma might help since it may

possibly regulate the conversion of DHEA into T. The correct ratio of Euycoma to DHEA dosing is anybodys guess

though. The other supplements mentioned in a previous post -Tribulus Terrestris (gokshura) and Tonkat Ali (also

spelled Togkat,
technically named Eurycoma longifolia) are well-researched herbs. I agree - I'd strongly lean

towards these substances as opposed to using DHEA, even though the jury is still out on their effectiveness. why?

Let me first show you the one reason why
I would choose unproven herbs over DHEA...

Life Extension Magazine

January 1996 - "How To Prevent Breast Cancer"

DHEA Boosts Estrogen Levels
(um, that line says it

all. But here's the rest of the article, anyhow)
DHEA replacement therapy is another natural way of

replacing estrogen levels diminished by the aging process. DHEA
(Dehydroepiandrosterone) is a precursor to the sex

hormones. It is transformed into estrogen, progesterone, and testosterone within the body, all of which are needed

at youthful levels to avoid the deterioration of aging. One problem with taking DHEA to replace depleted sex

hormones is that the ratio of these hormones converted from DHEA is uncertain. A better way of controlling the

amounts of each hormone within your body is to
supplement them specifically.
---
Sore nipples, anyone? And MEN,

if you're REALLY worried about breast cancer... well, I won't touch that...ladies.


---
See



http://www.lef.org/protocols/metabolic_health/dhea_r

estoration_01.htm

if you want a cutting edge protocol for use of this supplement. If for some reason you insist

on using DHEA, (or
ave already bought a ton of it)I would at least add an estrogen inhibitor to my supplement

stack, but be concious of the fact that DHEA will definitely raise your hormones, while the only proven E inhibitors

are (questionably safe?) drugs like Nolvadex. Search on



http://www.testosterone.net or



http://www.bodybuilding.com for details on Nolvadex.

And Yes, DHEA

supplementation has countless reported benefits for both men and women like blah blah blah... Go

ahead and roll the dice yourself if you're still sold on it. And yeah, I already know that the side effects tend

to be dismissed as "minor". Helllooooo, heart palpitations are not "minor" - they're probable precursors to MI's

and other significant EKG changes like in our old buddy Mike ("Cybergenics posterboy") Matarrazzo. And if that

happens while you're doing anything the least bit athletic or risky, a "minor" palpitation can lead to accidents

and mistakes, which could in and of themselves be more immediately
catastrophic than most MI's.

See

http://www.raysahelian.com/dhea.html for the CV side effects and

also



http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/dh

ea.html

for an outright dismissal of DHEA 's purported benefits. Disclaimer: Ray Sahelian, M.D. is a

side-effects-Nazi. IMHO the dude would strongly caution against eating
ice cream because it

might cause a frigging headache. Anyhow...
---
Oh and before I forget, you can check your own T and

hormone levels using a kit called Androcheck. The cost was about $25 per hormone the last time that i checked.

It's been awhile.
---
On to the herbs...
Tribulus- I started writing and searching for citations to use, and

then realized that there's a great
wiki up already, and i don't want to re-
invent the wheel. In sum, most

people think it works through a different cascade than DHEA, and but there are contradictory studies out there

(just like any other medicinal substance) Read more about it at



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tribulus_terrestris



Eurycoma's Non-sexual Side effects may include sleeplessness, a high body temp, prostate enlargement, and

generalized bitchiness. (yes, my words...) Peer reviewed abstracts regarding this herb can are on Pubmed:



http://ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=search&db=

pubmed&term=(eurycoma+longifolia)

In sum: It supposedly raises T in some people, and makes you really frigging

horny. i've read bout people getting zits, too.

---
I can't really vouch for anything in lieu of DHEA, but i

will be able to provide some feedback on my experiences in a few weeks. The supplement i will be taking is

called...

and y'all will love this...

it's called Alpha

Male.
Its a shotgun combination of the above
listed herbs (plus one more), made by Biotest.



Biotest has a great reputation and a horde of fanboy-zealots (like Apple computers) but the research isn't 100%

convincing or applicable to
everyone. No, i'm not connected to the
company in any way, but you can read more

about Alpha male at http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=1054351

[BizmanJoe]

DHEA also concurrently raises estrogen levels while some of the more modern supplements do not. And

the dosage taken is not strictly 25-50mg - it depends on your own T levels and age. For example I used to take

200mg/day in my twenties and it was a total waste of money, unless you like sore nipples. I'm on the way out

the door and will have to post more details later.

Well, no wonder you had sore nipples! 200mg

of DHEA is way too much for someone in their 20's - if you had kept it up you would have ended up with bitch tits

from all the conversion of excess test to estrogen and a bald head from conversion to DHT, not to mention excess

bodyweight and water retention from the excess estrogen.

Yes, DHEA is also known as the master precursor hormone

because your body will utilize it to create other hormones as necessary.

The solution is simple: If you want to

keep the estrogen conversion down or eliminate it altogether from high doses of DHEA, you need to also take an

anti-aromatase such as Novedex XT or 17-oxo Nolone or 6 -oxo and a hoot more that are on the market. Choices are

many. Try reading up bodybuilding supplement forums - there's a lot of good info and personal experiences out there

regarding PCT (post cycle therapy) for people doing steroids or prohormones.

To prevent DHT conversion which

leads to hairloss you can also add Saw Palmetto + Pumpkin Seed extract + FoTi (He Shou Wu).

To make use of all

the extra test in blood serum, one simple herb you can use is Avena Saitva (Green Oats) - it binds with SHBG

(sex-hormone binding globulins) and allows your body to make use of the excess serum testosterone.

There's alot

more that can be learned from Life Extension and other health related magazines as well as the myriads of websites.

I'm no expert, but I have to keep up to date because I manage a supplement store and am working toward a

Naturopathic Doctor's degree.

[gabe1970]

Okay, NOW I'm tapping out on

this topic. I won't be revisiting the health section of this site because it's an apparent open-cage-fight. IM

or PM me if you want my personal input. And it looks like y'all will have to copy and paste the links from my

previous post - the formatting is screwy. Sorry about that.
later.

[BizmanJoe]

For

males, the main problem with raising T levels through DHEA suplementation is two-fold. The primary problem is that

your body tries to maintain a state of homeostasis or balance by raising levels of estrogen, progesterone, and other

hormones. The second problem is the resultant raised production of progesterone and prolactin. These two hormones

are what i call "manliness-killers".

Prolactone is what makes you lactate. Simply put, do ya'll REALLY want to

be able to breastfeed? Well allrighty then... NOW if you want to elevate T and decrease E, DHEA by


itself isn't going to cut it. Eurycoma might help since it may possibly regulate the conversion of

DHEA into T. The correct ratio of Euycoma to DHEA dosing is anybodys guess though. The other supplements mentioned

in a previous post -Tribulus Terrestris (gokshura) and Tonkat Ali (also spelled Togkat,
technically named Eurycoma

longifolia) are well-researched herbs. I agree - I'd strongly lean towards these substances as opposed to using

DHEA, even though the jury is still out on their effectiveness. why? Let me first show you the one reason why
I

would choose unproven herbs over DHEA...

Life Extension Magazine January 1996 - "How To Prevent Breast Cancer"



DHEA Boosts Estrogen Levels
(um, that line says it all. But here's the rest of the article,

anyhow)
DHEA replacement therapy is another natural way of replacing estrogen levels diminished by the aging

process. DHEA
(Dehydroepiandrosterone) is a precursor to the sex hormones. It is transformed into estrogen,

progesterone, and testosterone within the body, all of which are needed at youthful levels to avoid the

deterioration of aging. One problem with taking DHEA to replace depleted sex hormones is that the ratio of these

hormones converted from DHEA is uncertain. A better way of controlling the amounts of each hormone within your body

is to
supplement them specifically.
---
Sore nipples, anyone? And MEN, if you're REALLY worried about

breast cancer... well, I won't touch that...ladies.
---
See



http://www.lef.org/protocols/metabolic_health/dhea_res

toration_01.htm

if you want a cutting edge protocol for use of this supplement. If for some reason you insist

on using DHEA, (or
ave already bought a ton of it)I would at least add an estrogen inhibitor to my supplement

stack, but be concious of the fact that DHEA will definitely raise your hormones, while the only proven E inhibitors

are (questionably safe?) drugs like Nolvadex. Search on



http://www.testosterone.net or



http://www.bodybuilding.com for details on Nolvadex.

And Yes, DHEA

supplementation has countless reported benefits for both men and women like blah blah blah... Go

ahead and roll the dice yourself if you're still sold on it. And yeah, I already know that the side effects tend to

be dismissed as "minor". Helllooooo, heart palpitations are not "minor" - they're probable precursors to MI's and

other significant EKG changes like in our old buddy Mike ("Cybergenics posterboy") Matarrazzo. And if that happens

while you're doing anything the least bit athletic or risky, a "minor" palpitation can lead to accidents and

mistakes, which could in and of themselves be more immediately
catastrophic than most MI's.

See

http://www.raysahelian.com/dhea.html for the CV side effects and

also



http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/dhea

.html

for an outright dismissal of DHEA 's purported benefits. Disclaimer: Ray Sahelian, M.D. is a

side-effects-Nazi. IMHO the dude would strongly caution against eating
ice cream because it

might cause a frigging headache. Anyhow...
---
Oh and before I forget, you can check your own T and hormone

levels using a kit called Androcheck. The cost was about $25 per hormone the last time that i checked. It's been

awhile.
---
On to the herbs...
Tribulus- I started writing and searching for citations to use, and then realized

that there's a great
wiki up already, and i don't want to re-
invent the wheel. In sum, most people think it

works through a different cascade than DHEA, and but there are contradictory studies out there (just like any other

medicinal substance) Read more about it at



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tribulus_terrestris



Eurycoma's Non-sexual Side effects may include sleeplessness, a high body temp, prostate enlargement, and

generalized bitchiness. (yes, my words...) Peer reviewed abstracts regarding this herb can are on Pubmed:



http://ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=search&db=pu

bmed&term=(eurycoma+longifolia)

In sum: It supposedly raises T in some people, and makes you really frigging

horny. i've read bout people getting zits, too.

---
I can't really vouch for anything in lieu of DHEA, but i

will be able to provide some feedback on my experiences in a few weeks. The supplement i will be taking is called...



and y'all will love this...

it's called Alpha Male.


Its a shotgun combination of the above
listed herbs (plus one more), made by Biotest.

Biotest has a great

reputation and a horde of fanboy-zealots (like Apple computers) but the research isn't 100% convincing or

applicable to
everyone. No, i'm not connected to the
company in any way, but you can read more about Alpha male

at

http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=1054351

Good post! Looks like you did your homwork.

[gabe1970]

Good

post! Looks like you did your homwork.

Thanks - my grandfather is a naturopath and an herbalist.

I've learned quite a bit from him. PreMed, Biochem, and my chemistry minor also help -- that and being a PubMed

Addict.

I'm doen with this thread! No more! No more, I say!!

[BizmanJoe]

Gabe. Ahh, no

wonder. I knew there had to be some type of nutritional or medical background the way you were spitting out

info...

[BizmanJoe]

BTW,

if you want to know your testosterone levels discreetly, purchase a kit called

AndroTest. It's around $25 and you'll know at a glance where your hormones are (especially if you're coming off

of a roid or prohormone cycle). Just my 2 cents...

[tounge]

Gabe and Biz, what's your opinion

of Pregnenolone?

[gabe1970]

I wouldn't take it myself.

Same problem as with DHEA.

It creates an unpredictable elevation of ALL hormones including estrogen, and the

one you have to worry about the most is progesterone. For some reason hormonal precursors like DHEA and

Pregnenolone have effects that are keyed to where they are produced in the body, and an exogenuous source like an

ingested or injected "supplement" throws the whole cascade off balance. You want something that stimulates your

body to ramp up production itself, or you need to carefully balance a "stack" of many supplements or drugs, like

bodybuilders attempt to do by pairing and cycling steroids with anti-estrogens and liver protectants.

I'd

stick with herbal supplements by Biotest as found at http://www.testosterone.net , but Bizman is the best

one to ask for other brands and other sources. My knowledge and expertise is much more
focused/limited than his,

so hopefully he can give you other alternatives, and I'm betting he will recommend a DHEA variant called keto-7

--which I know next to nothing about.

[BizmanJoe]

Gabe and Biz, what's your opinion of Pregnenolone?

Its another precursor or

"mother" hormone as some in the industry call it. It's formed from cholesterol as part of steroidogenesis (1st

step, actually) and is a precurser to many hormones including DHEA. You'll find plenty of info on it on the web.



Once again, studies show low doses of supplementation can be beneficial for those past their prime. In larger

doses, it can throw a wrench into your body's hormonal axis as gabe describes.

Don't meddle with hormones

unless you know what you're doing. My 2 cents...

[MOBLEYC57]

The supplement

i will be taking is called...

and y'all will love this...

it's called Alpha Male. Its a shotgun combination of the above listed herbs (plus one

more), made by Biotest.

Biotest has a great reputation and a horde of fanboy-zealots (like Apple computers) but

the research isn't 100% convincing or applicable to
everyone. No, i'm not connected to the company in any way,

but you can read more about Alpha male at

http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=1054351

Gabe, since we've/I've heard nothing from you on ALPHA MALE .... STUD or DUD?

[surfs_up]

LEF (life extension foundation) offers the most accessible, quality controlled

private choice testing.... and so who is surprised that the "health care" industry has been working overtime, and

laughably without success, to shut them down.

Regardless of what you're stuffing your pipes with, obtain the

basic battery of tests... they do fantastic hormone workups...

Excellent chioice of blood lipid studies as

well...

One thing nobody discusses, my own doc thought I was nuts UNTIL we ran the test... is red blood

cell magnesium .... not, I repeat, not the cheaper, and now known to be useless serum magnesium

test... American diets tend to magnesium deficiency, which must be in the correct ratio with phosphorus and

calcium.... it the Ca-Mg-P triangle is out of balance, many thing may appear that are hard to diagnose... muscle

soreness (the had me on strong muscle relaxers that made me really spaced out and depressed), poor concentration,

low energy....

They also now know that there are a wide range of inflammation triggers that interact with the

blood lipids to cause disease, which is why some folks with "bad numbers" do OK, and some folks with "good numbers"

drop dead...

Some of these factors are C Reactive Protein, Homocysteine, Fibrinogen... and a wide range of

cytokines (fever triggering and tissue swelling factors) like TNF-alpha...

You NEED to look at the whole

picture, hormone chemisty is one important part of the whole, but there are many other elements too... low grade

chronic inflammation may be one of the central components in aging and tissue failue, for example a recent study has

shown that diseased artery tissue appears to be highly aged at a microscopic level, you can have 30 year old skin

but 70 year old arteries.... meaning the arterial lining DNA has worn down to the level of a 70 year old...



The #1 culprit here so far as we know is "toxic dietary fat" that has been altered by heat and oxidation...

the worst known source of these fat-toxins is the ordinary french fry potato stick... many crispy fried chips,

comfort foods, deep fried battered meats, and the like present a serious health risk.... the maximum combination for

playing Russian Roulette would be to use anabolics in combination with a fast food diet...

[gabe1970]

Gabe, since

we've/I've heard nothing from you on ALPHA MALE .... STUD or DUD?

Had financial issues but

you're timing is amazing. Finally ordering it tonight.

[MOBLEYC57]

Had financial

issues but you're timing is amazing. Finally ordering it tonight.

<singing>

"Doe

... a deer ... a female deer. Ray ..."

Is the mic on? Gabe?

[bronzie]

The type of steroids we are

talking about here are very very bad and WILL damage your health and not only in the long term, quite frankly,

advocating that short term steroid use is safe for asthetic purposes is irresponsible (bodybuilding), I put it in

the same light as saying, party drugs are safe when taken only at parties on a weekend. The damage these drugs do is

often irrevesable.

Steroids and other growth hormones should only be taken under the supervision of a doctor,

plain and simple. Yes, they do have some health benefits for those that NEED them.

However, there is a

booming black market for these drugs, the only time I think that a black market drug like steroids should be taken

by an individual is when there is beyond a doubt that the substance will help thier health, and when getting that

drug via legal means (i.e Doctor) is not possible. example is Human Growth Hormone, the stuff that Nick Nolte takes,

or took.

[woofa1]

I am no except on this

topic. But well done gabe for giving us the opportunity to read an informative point of view. Everyone has their own

opinion on this. But what i will say, that i had a mate who cycled on for 2 years, he was competing in a

bodybuilding competion.

He has now stopped, 4 years on he has having problems with his liver and kidneys.They

are not major, but he was prevoiusly, very healthy as he used to compete in triatholons with our athletic club.



So this may or may not be attributed to his roid taking. The doctor told him that most likely the roids did have

some impact on the negative health side. I personally, would not take them to improve aesthetic appearance. But from

a medical standpoint, that may be different?