What to do if you become too cocky

[phersurf]

I'll bet our ways aren't too

far apart.

I'm not a jerk. I'm also not a "nice guy", I'm a good guy.

Your first paragraph desribes

me pretty closely.

[Gegogi]

"I was a "sweet, sensitive

guy that showed my feelings". I did nice things for women, etc. all on the advice of women. It was a great way of

aquiring many woman friends that would come to me when their "jerk" boyfriends mistreated them. If I had a dollar

for everytime I heard "I wish I could meet a nice guy, like you", I'd be a rich man!"

Hmm, I've had

nearly parallel experiences, except for the end result. Heck I even helped them shop for shoes (new shoes are a

great comfort to most women). However, I often ended up in the sack after comforting female friends. Of course it

was fun, but it complicated or put a damper on our friendship, especially since they usually intended to return to

their BF/hubby and merely needed a comfort lay and a little revenge. I actually felt used but got over it fast.

After all, what are friends for?

[phersurf]

Let me define a

few terms for the uninitiated. You guys keep throwing the words cocky, confident, arrogant and self-absorbed as if

they all mean the same thing. They don't.

Confident is thinking you're the shit.
Cocky is acting like

you're the shit.
Arrogant is acting like you're shit's hotter than everyone else's shit, and that you're so

much better than everyone else.
Self-absorbed is talking about nothing but how you're the shit.

All

women love confident men, hands down. Some women like there men a little cocky as well. I for one, like men who

are very confident and a little to a lot cocky, depending of if they've actually earned the right to be cocky by

actually BEING the shit. Very few women enjoy arrogant men, because they just make us feel worse about ourselves.

Similarly, very few women like self-absorbed men, and usually these are just the quite ones who are relieved someone

will keep talking.

However, demo, you called her ugly, and that makes you, in her eyes and now in the eyes

of all her friends, a bonafide jerk. And no one, and I mean NO ONE likes a jerk. You can be a jerk to other

people, sometimes, but if you're a jerk to her you are history.

And as a response to Trock and Pherosurf,

wow you guys sound just a tad bitter. You're partially right, but you just don't recognize what's really going

on. Women know what they want, almost always, but sometimes they have a hard time recognizing it in people. These

girls dating jerks are usually searching for confident, slightly cocky guys, and mistook the jerkish arrogance of

some guys for it. If all they want are jerks, they why do they dump these guys? Why do they get mad when they act

like jerks? It's because they've realized that they were mistaken. They might stay with a guy to try to change

him, but they're not staying because they want a jerk. Yes, we don't like pussies, and yes, sometimes we snub the

"sweet sensitive guys", but it's usually because they lack confidence. Show them a guy who's confident and sweet

at the same time and they'll take that over an arrogant SOB any day.

My call for maturity doesn't just

apply to guys. There are many girls today that just need to grow up as well and recognize the difference between

confidence and arrogance. But a real woman knows the difference. Maybe acting like a bastard will get you more

dates. Maybe itwill get you more one-night -stands. But if you're looking for a lasting connection with someone

special, then you better shape up and grow up.

Oh and pherosurf? If the thing you're most concerned about

is not that you h aven't found a nice woman as a companion and girlfriend, but rather that you haven't gotten laid

enough, then it's no wonder that you end up with dates with your hand. We women HATE that.

Hope this

helps,
~Silver

I was totally agreeing with you until the last paragraph!

Having a little

problem with reading comprehension, huh?

The period of my life whe I wasn't getting laid was when I was

looking for a great woman and companion (I'm still looking for a great woman and companion). The difference is now

I have more control on where my relationaships are going.

All men, let me repeat that, ALL MEN, are looking

to get laid first. Then if the woman ends up to be cool and seems to be someone we can get alomg with, then we

continue the relationship. That's the way men's brains work.

If a man asks you out, it's not because he

wants to have a relationship with you. It's because he wants to get into your pants.

My attitude now is I

could care less if I get laid by any specific woman. I'm the one doing the choosing. I can walk away from any

woman.

[Indigo]

Let me define a few

terms for the uninitiated. You guys keep throwing the words cocky, confident, arrogant and self-absorbed as if they

all mean the same thing. They don't.

Confident is thinking you're the shit.
Cocky is acting like you're the

shit.
Arrogant is acting like you're shit's hotter than everyone else's shit, and that you're so much better

than everyone else.
Self-absorbed is talking about nothing but how you're the shit.

You are getting more and more sympatiko !!!

Would be great if more woman would chare your attitude and

perception!
Hard to believe you are just over 19!

[CptKipling]

Well idk, I

just kept saying stuff like I was going to print the convo out and pass it around then what really got her is when I

called her ugly. From what i've heard and read from people is its ok if she calls you a complete asshole. Oh well

at school tommorrow ill just play it off like it was nothing, and see her reaction.

Just what exactly

possed you to call her ugly? I know all about c&f, but nowhere is anyone saying you have to make a person feel

small. You could imply that you're calling her ugly in a jokey way ("c'mon love, not exactly a bowl of fruit are

we!" when you're addressing something completely none personal and with a wry grin), but this time I think she

thought you meant it.

Say you didn't mean it like that, however it is you did it. I agree with Silver, just

don't gush when you apologise or it be obvious it was an act and she will think you are a loser as well.

[Gegogi]

"If a man asks you out,

it's not because he wants to have a relationship with you. It's because he wants to get into your pants."

Hmm, although this is true for many guys, especially younger ones, there are many other reasons to ask a woman

out. I've asked women out due to work, common interests, friendship, etc. Nookie was far from my mind. Of course,

personality and common interests can and did lead to attraction and eventual amourous activity. Usually if my main

movivation is scoring nookie the relationship dies quickly due to quickly eroding interest on my part. To me the

most attractive part of a woman, and the only thing that holds my attention, is her personality and lifestyle, not

getting into her pants (although that's a nice side benefit).

[DeMoKiLL]

Ill just call her and tell her

that I was just playing around and I didn't really mean that you were ugly it was a joke. Then she will respond and

ill tell her more. And nookie isn't even in my mind with this girl, thats not what im after. I've just tried being

a nice guy and didn't work out at all just backfired in my face. So I went to the opposite extreme and acted like a

jerk to see if it would work. Ill call her up then post what happens.

[belgareth]

I'll bet our

ways aren't too far apart.

I'm not a jerk. I'm also not a "nice guy", I'm a good guy.

Your first

paragraph desribes me pretty closely.

I learned much of what I know about dealing with women from women. Some

of it I learned from my Dad who would have laughed at these guys who think you need to play all these attitude

games. Gegogi makes some good points about dating solely to get laid. That approach got me less sex than anything

short of staying at home. Spend time with women to enjoy their company. That does mean that you need to date women

with more personality than just a 'D' cup though. If she can't hold up her end of a conversation or doesn't

like to laugh and enjoy herself instead of just hanging out in a bar, I want nothing to do with her. Even under the

best of circumstances you can only spend so much time in bed, there has to be much more to a relationship than sex,

although the sex part is important too.

[DeMoKiLL]

I just called her and she

sounded ok, not really mad, I only talked for like 5 minutes and im going to talk to her at school tommorrow. I said

I didn't really mean it and I was just joking. Then she said but you called me (soandso), I laughed and said yea

that was pretty funny. It might be good but I don't know yet ill tell you how she reacts tommorrow.

[SirAngel]

I was totally

agreeing with you until the last paragraph!

Having a little problem with reading comprehension, huh?

The

period of my life whe I wasn't getting laid was when I was looking for a great woman and companion (I'm still

looking for a great woman and companion). The difference is now I have more control on where my relationaships are

going.

All men, let me repeat that, ALL MEN, are looking to get laid first. Then if the woman ends up to be

cool and seems to be someone we can get alomg with, then we continue the relationship. That's the way men's brains

work.

If a man asks you out, it's not because he wants to have a relationship with you. It's because he wants

to get into your pants.

My attitude now is I could care less if I get laid by any specific woman. I'm the one

doing the choosing. I can walk away from any woman.

You remind me of David D. I think you know who we´re

talking about. I can sign what Pherosurf said. The principals defenatly work! No doubt about that. It took me quite

a while to understand that a girl doesn´t need to like you to feel attracted to you. Atraction isn´t a choice...puts

it in a good Frame. There is no such thing as the ultimate truth and everybody is absolutely right from his own

point of view...

Angel

[Skye]

My two-cents

worth:

First off, I'll give some background. 26y/o 1st year Graduate student. Found DYD and C&F 3-4 years

ago (Fresh/Sop year, about 6 months after I found LS). Studied it, and used it (what I took away from it at least)

to make my irregular love-life (meaning sometimes I hit, sometimes I missed with a lady) into a much more regular

situation. Is it all due to C&F and DYD and Pheromones? *Shrug* Only thing I can say with conviction is that I still

buy from LS, and that I still interact with women based on what I took away from DYD.

Now that we have

gotten that out of the way, what does C&F mean to me? (For that matter, what does a social interaction with a lady

mean to me?):

The first general question that pops into my mind is:

"Are we enjoying ourselves and

having a good time?"

why?

I think as fellow human beings, it is safe to assume that we tend to

gravitate towards enjoyable situations and avoid unenjoyable (or unpleasurable)

situations/feelings/interations.

Next Question:

"How do you have an enjoyable time with a

female?"

Now, some men (myself included, depending on mood) want to have hot head banging sex with a

beautiful woman. Other men (myself included, depending on mood) want to have an enlightened conversation,

light-hearted social interactions laced with flirtatious innuendo. Men sometimes also want to have a stable and

loving relationship. (myself included, I'm a gemini go figure.) Finally, some men just want to be within 5 ft of a

woman without her breaking out the mace. (I confess, I don't include myself in this category)

Whats the

point? The point is, many many men assume that by buying gifts, diamond rings, free lobster dinners, fast and fleshy

cars,the zegna suit, pheromones and all of DYD products, they can get some/all of the previous paragraph by

substituting/bypassing "...enjoyable time with a female"

Well, my personal belief in attraction is "...have a

uniquely enjoyable time with a female....and if I'm the only one that can make/have you feel that way.... ;P"



Third Question:
"So what happened to C&F? / What is C&F to you?"

So lets wrap up the last two

questions into answering the third (Yes, my need for convoluted replies is as bad as my need for validation....

)

The point is this, if you use C&F, and she says:

"You... are....such a....jerk"


(...playful, raised eyebrows, punches you in the arm softly...maintains eye contact...undoes left foot from her

shoe and swings it playfully....caressing her wine glass and licking the side of her lips...)

Then, we have a

positive social interaction....pleasurable feelings...one that you can be pretty sure she has enjoyed... (..and one

you can be pretty sure you would enjoy too ....soon.... sans the need for a zegna, CL55 AMG or the Tiffany

solitare...) ...with whatever you just did wth the C&F...

If you pull a C&F conversation with her, and she

says:
"You are SUCH A JERK!"
(...turing red in the face...screeching...livid with anger...red nails

digging into her palms...wait or was that your blood from getting your balls ripped off?)

Then you can be

pretty sure that you have had a negative interaction....bad / angry feelings... all linked just to you....



Wait, C&F isn't supposed to work that way!!!

Yup, it isn't. But you made it work that way. Bottom

line, she had a negative experience that was caused by you, linked to you and thus.....she is not likely to

associate you with good/positive/attractive feelings...

....and you are not going to get your itch

scratched...

even if you blame it on yourself, the stars, too much none or rone...your ethinicity....your

shoes.....her period.....how she was not your type....is a lesbian....had a bad childhood... .or C&F....

(So

what would I do with your friend who thinks you are a jerk)

I don't know... you could use C&F...you could

buy her flowers....you could buy her a diamond ring, a weekend trip to a spa in france... you could joke with her

like nothing happened.....suggesting that the both of you have coffee and have conversation.....

....but

whatever you (or I would) do, I would reverse whatever happend...and have her start associating

good/positive/attractive feelings to you. Not the bad negative/jerk/pissy and possibly unattractive feelings with

you.


Just my two-cents worth.

[watcher27944]

Off hand I would say that

Silver knowes more about women then I do so I`ll go with her on this.

[DeMoKiLL]

Your article was very helpful

skye, + rep to you! :-)

[phersurf]

Off hand I

would say that Silver knowes more about women then I do so I`ll go with her on this.

I wonder how

many women she's dated?

It seems to me it's better to take advice from men that are successful with

women.

[TRock]

I wonder how many

women she's dated?

It seems to me it's better to take advice from men that are successful with

women.

true story. i had my sister and a few female friends help me with this girl and they made me become a

total needy wussy on purpose. the more you profess your love the more she'll love you. lol.

[bjf]

true story. i had my

sister and a few female friends help me with this girl and they made me become a total needy wussy on purpose. the

more you profess your love the more she'll love you. lol.

They were trying to mess you up or they

were serious?

[TRock]

it was their real advice, i doubt

it was meant to screw me over on purpose.

[belgareth]

My sisters were a year older

and a year younger than me. We dated each other's friends from time to time, my older sister even married one of my

friends. It was a pretty good arrangement for us.

[sprayit]

Silver: “I want a guy who

is secure enough in his own masculinity that he can be sympathetic, sentimental, and apologetic.”

Since

when are they masculine attributes? 'Get a gay man girlfriend.'

Silver: “Women admire men who are

willing to admit when they are wrong. This doesn't make you weak, this makes you adaptable, flexible, willing to

learn, grow, and mature.”

Admiration is a sense of awe, wonder and delight. Women (esp alpha types)

derive satisfaction from men whom back down... that is absolutely not “admiration.”

Men are

capable of frustration in the tedious pursuit of courtship, and they are capable of misrepresenting themselves as a

matter of gender character. Women who accept this are “adaptable, flexible, willing to learn and grow,”

as you so nicely put it.

As for maturity (which you seem keen to overstate), in my experience, the most

attractive personalities are the ones who aren't predominantly mature in their behaviour. For example, politicians

and lawyers are hardly arousing while they work.

Perhaps the issue here is that a lot of women simply refuse

to believe they're attractive, and rely so heavily on males to reassure them of their appearance. Just who is it

here who “isn't secure enough in themselves?” Doesn't sound like the male to me...

[Gegogi]

Silver: “I want a guy who

is secure enough in his own masculinity that he can be sympathetic, sentimental, and apologetic.”

Since when

are they masculine attributes? 'Get a gay man girlfriend.'

Those are human attributes, not male or

female. Insecure men merely try to hide or suppress them. If you're incapable of expressing those attributes

you're suffering from either brain damage, social retardation or mental retardation. Even the most macho jerks

I've known can feel for ya when you get shafted, wax nostalgic about back in the day and apologize for stepping on

your toes.

[bjf]

Insecure men merely try

to hide or suppress them.

....often with cockiness

[sprayit]

In regards to sympathy,

sentimentality, and apology...

Gogogi: “Those are human attributes, not male or female. Insecure men

merely try to hide or suppress them.”

I beg to differ. Sympathy and sentimentality are phenomena that

are passive towards the environment. That is to say, that the individual is subordinate to the environmental

dictation. Apology on the other hand is absolute submission in every sense. Masculinity is not passive.

When

hubby apologises to his wife, he is submitting to her entirely as a means to worship and reward her, in attempt to

sway her power in decision to accept him back.

You casually use the terms “mental retardation”

and “social retardation” disparagingly. Do you have a problem with humans possessing disability? I hope

we aren't dawning on a fascist era...

[bjf]

Spray it, an interesting perspective.

I am wondering what your take is though when someone has done something wrong and knows it. Shouldn't they

acknowledge that? If not because it is the right thing to do, what about to dig yourself out of the hole you have

put yourself in?

[belgareth]

In regards to

sympathy, sentimentality, and apology...

Gogogi: “Those are human attributes, not male or female. Insecure men

merely try to hide or suppress them.”

I beg to differ. Sympathy and sentimentality are phenomena that are

passive towards the environment. That is to say, that the individual is subordinate to the environmental dictation.

Apology on the other hand is absolute submission in every sense. Masculinity is not passive.

When hubby

apologises to his wife, he is submitting to her entirely as a means to worship and reward her, in attempt to sway

her power in decision to accept him back.

You casually use the terms “mental retardation” and “social

retardation” disparagingly. Do you have a problem with humans possessing disability? I hope we aren't dawning on a

fascist era...

When a husband apologises to his wife, he is in no way being passive, he is admitting to

having made a mistake. In almost every case, the ability to admit error increases respect rather than reduces it.

The person, male or female, that refuses to admit error is simply asking for a bad relationship. One of the most

common signs of immaturity is the failure and/or refusal to acknowledge that you can be wrong and admitting it when

you are.

[phersurf]

I think some of us are confusing

behavior in creating initial attraction with a woman and behavior in a long term relationship.

Apples and

oranges.

Of course once you have a long term relationship, apppologies, as well as other behavior, that would

during the initial courtship stage be considered suplication, are fine.

[belgareth]

You wouldn't apologise for a

mistake during the initial courtship?

[Gegogi]

"You casually use the

terms “mental retardation” and “social retardation” disparagingly. Do you have a problem with humans possessing

disability? I hope we aren't dawning on a fascist era..."

And disparagement, indeed, was my

intention. Perhaps it was wrong but no less than implying that men with sympathetic, sentimental, or apologetic

behavior are not masculine. Furthermore it is less than PC to stereotype these characteristics as common among gay

men. Icidentally, most gay guys I know are ultra masculine.

I'll rephase: If you're a man and are incapable

of feeling or expressing the aforementioned attributes you may be mentally challenged, socially challenged or brain

dead. Hey, that was rather cocky for a card carrying liberal and metromale!

[sprayit]

BJF: “Spray it, an

interesting perspective. I am wondering what your take is though when someone has done something wrong and knows it.

Shouldn't they acknowledge that? If not because it is the right thing to do, what about to dig yourself out of the

hole you have put yourself in?”

I am not making political, ethical or moral assertions BJF. I do not

know where that assumption came from..? I am stating that passive behaviour is not inherently masculine. I have not

once said “don't apologize” nor have I suggested any axioms relating to a “right and wrong”

theory of morality.

Belgareth: “When a husband apologises to his wife, he is in no way being passive,

he is admitting to having made a mistake.”

Not necessarily. It is quite possible to apologize for

actions which were deliberate, or for which there may not be any actual regret. I maintain, the act of apology is

the act of expressed submission.

Gegogi: “And disparagement, indeed, was my intention. Perhaps it was

wrong but no less than implying that men with sympathetic, sentimental, or apologetic behavior are not

masculine.”

I deny such implication. I never stated that sympathetic men are incapable of masculinity,

I stated that certain behaviours are not masculine. My statements pertain to observable behaviour, not the 'value

or worth' of men in a social context. Someone has misunderstood my words. Males are indeed capable of such

behaviour, but it is feminine behaviour. Have you got a problem with that? I sure haven't.

One might

conclude that you seem to believe that male femininity sounds detrimental to men... I do not share such an outdated

view.

[bjf]

BJF: “Spray it, an

interesting perspective. I am wondering what your take is though when someone has done something wrong and knows it.

Shouldn't they acknowledge that? If not because it is the right thing to do, what about to dig yourself out of the

hole you have put yourself in?”

I am not making political, ethical or moral assertions BJF. I do not know

where that assumption came from..? I am stating that passive behaviour is not inherently masculine. I have not once

said “don't apologize” nor have I suggested any axioms relating to a “right and wrong” theory of

morality.

Spray it, I never said you were making political, ethical or moral assertions. I do

not know where such an assumption came from.

I simply posed a hypothetical and wanted your response.

[sprayit]

BJF: “Spray it, I never

said you were making political, ethical or moral assertions. I do not know where such an assumption came from. I

simply posed a hypothetical and wanted your response.”

Even a hypothetical “should they?”

question relates to politics, ethics or morality, as do right and wrong – that's where the assumption came

from. To respond, I have no take on the matter other than the notion of individual responsibility.

Back on

topic though, I still maintain, passive behaviour is not masculine