chococat,
I really don't
want it to seem as though we are ganging up on you, but...
I've had a few friends go to pieces over this sort
of thing, please please please put him straight before it gets any worse. I've had more than my fair share of
seeing this kind of thing from the outside, only recently I had a friend do it with two consecutive girls, stupid
bugger doesn't learn. He WILL end up hating you if you don't change it, and unfortunately the longer it goes on
the less likely it is you'll be friends afterwards.
It's not nice waving candy in
front of a babies face knowing he wants/will want it, and not give him a piece.
<Chococat>You know the time & lunches has him STILL hoping, you n a u g h t y
gurl! Who pays for lunch?Tell the truth, shame the devil!
Now ... back to the OD report.
Someone was saying .........
Never argue with ignorant people! They pull you down to THEIR level, and then they BEAT YOU with experience. Who said that!? I don't know, but tis gold I tell'ya!!
!Originally Posted by MOBLEYC57
You know the
time & lunches has him STILL hoping, you n a u g h t y gurl! Who pays for lunch?
truth, shame the devil!
Moi, moi, moi! I know better than to let a man pay for
something if I'm not interested in him! It's my favorite subtle way of showing a lack of interest. I'm going to
have a talk with him soon, as in, Monday.
Then at
number 2 on that list of favorite subtle way of showing a lack of interest, you need to add .... and I
don't spend time with him either, 'cause deep down inside, he's hoping things change. Ever have a deep
interest in someone that wasn't interested in you? What do you think would be running through your mind if you
continually did lunch with'em?Would you be hoping that things change? Ya damn skippy! If it was me,
I'd say cool when you talked to me, but I'd still eat wit'ya, hoping that I'd soon get to eat ya!
Anywho, enough of me minding your business ... come get your spanking fer being so bad, and acting like you
weren't!
Never argue with ignorant people! They pull you down to THEIR level, and then they BEAT YOU with experience. Who said that!? I don't know, but tis gold I tell'ya!!
ahh so
that's what that means... I always thought the girl was just being polite. But next time a chick refuses to let me
pay for her food, then I'm just going to get up and walk out. WHAT AN INSULT!
She's not a tease, so let's not
treat her like one.
##########
Last edited by Have_Courage; 01-15-2005 at 01:40 PM.
Slow your role, Fuse!You have
to understand that just because one person does something for one reason, another person could have a whole NEW
different reason for doing the same thing ... like wanting to feel indebt, or not wanting the man to think he's
getting some, or just wanting to be different than all of those that thinks a man should pay. Once you get to know
someone, you'll pretty much undestand why they do things ... most of it is NOT personal, but we take it as such.
Good day!
Never argue with ignorant people! They pull you down to THEIR level, and then they BEAT YOU with experience. Who said that!? I don't know, but tis gold I tell'ya!!
Good point Mobley. I've always taken
it as a sign the woman will not let you court her. I guess since everyone's different and one subtle sign could
mean one thing while another nothing at all, the only way to really know where everyone stands is through verbal
communication, direct at that. Problem is, that's just not as suspenseful, is it?
Hahaha! I don't think it *always* means
that. I mean, if you explicitly offer to pay (i.e. "I'll get it.") and she says, "No, no, I have money to pay for
my own," that's probably a putdown. On the other hand, if no one says anything about the money and the man and
woman just *put down* money without discussing the bill, that's the woman being polite and attempting to let you
know that she's not a gold digger. Come with money and don't say, "So, how are we going to pay this?" This is such
a turnoff to me. If I'm interested in the guy, I'd rather just not discuss the bill at all or assume that he's
going to pay (he asked me out, right?)
At least that's how I view it. If you are suddenly reminded of
chococat on a date, then maybe you're dealing with a similar female.
Thank you for your advice,
HaveCourage. Honestly, I think women are more verbal than men and we just need to *hear* things. All women have
worked out their own little "systems" for catching men and weeding through the ones they aren't interested in. The
more tactful the girl, the more likely she'll give you ambiguous signals.
Why should the guy pay? That's
just SO wussy. (ah I get it, the guy asked for a date, not my field)
Back to the topic, he's totally into
you. And I agree with what's being said, men can NOT be just friends with an attractive gal, we are wild. A man
that limits himself isn't a man.
Don't spend time with him! Especially not just the two of you! If you are
in a group then it's fine. Here, that's a good way to make him understand without hurting him: while in a group,
don't pay attention to him. If you keep this up he'll grow tired of it, provided he's not a door
mat.
Yoel
אני להיות לא באמת יהודי
Well, it's very
alpha male when you think about it. It's showing that you're not cheap and that you have at least a small amount
of money at your dispense. Even if you do this at McDonald's, it will probably make a good impression.
Paying = alpha male? You're either
basically telling me 98% of the guys who walk on earth are alpha, or you have a really weird perspective
Paying is needy, as in, I need to pay to keep you interested (and to give you gifts and to tell you
you're beautiful and to bow at your mere presence).
What if I say I'd be offended if the girl didn't pay
for me? Does it make any sense? Thought so. So why should it work the other way around?
Yoel
אני להיות לא באמת יהודי
Hmmmmmmm, that depends on the mentality of the woman ... I'll pay, even if I
don't have much money, but I'd better get treated down the line (to lunch/dinner), or she gets kick to the curb if
I read a "men should always pay" type attitude.
I use to do go on a little trip with a woman, and after about
three trips, I asked why she never drove US, and she said, "I'm keeping you company, and men are suppose to
drive." Needless to say, after that, I started going on my little trip solo.
There are all different
types out there ... I pay attention to see if I wanna spend the time.
Never argue with ignorant people! They pull you down to THEIR level, and then they BEAT YOU with experience. Who said that!? I don't know, but tis gold I tell'ya!!
While I was out
galavanting around today, I remembered some friends in college. I have decided to share this little anecdote with
you. I hope it does NOT come to this for you, but if it does, well, there is still hope for a graceful exit.
The Anecdote
I was very active in student organizations when I was college. One year, I started hearing my guy
friends refer to "Katie" (not her real name). "Katie" was hot, stacked like a battleship, great chest, whoa whoa
whoa!, va-va-voom, etc. After a couple of weeks of hearing this, my curiosity got the better of me and I arranged
to be in an office when "Katie" showed up.
Okay, she was curvaceous but otherwise not my cup of tea.
Nonetheles, she had become popular with my friends so I befriended her in the only appropriate way for a young man:
I accepted her as part of the group and otherwise ignored her.
Well, I learned along the way that Katie had been
engaged the previous year, but she either caught her fiance cheating on her or he lied in some major, massive way.
Because of that experience, she was turning down dates right and left. I never bothered to ask her out, but I think
she politely warned me off one day because so many guys were coming at her she just assumed I might be interested,
too.
Now, one of my friends, call him "Little Joe", decided he and Katie were meant for each other. He did
everything he could to date her. She liked him as a friend but refused steadfastly to date him. They MIGHT have
gone out once for something casual.
Months passed.
One day, I was visiting "Big Joe", another friend. Big
Joe said to me, "If Little Joe doesn't do something soon, I'm going to ask Katie out." Well, trying not to meddle
too much, I politely reminded him that Katie didn't seem too interested in dating anyone, much less Little Joe.
Big Joe said he thought Katie might indeed be interested in him. I left it at that and hoped my friend wouldn't be
shot down.
Soon thereafter, Big Joe asked Katie out, and they began dating quietly. I and maybe one other
friend knew they were seeing each other.
Somewhere along the way, I lost touch with the group for a while. I
started to hear mentions of a "Penny", some cute girl who was now hanging with the group. Whatever.
One day, I
was sitting in a student office and Katie came in with Little Joe and another girl. Call the other girl Penelope.
I had met Penelope a couple of years before and hadn't been very interested in her. I thought she was a bit of a
flake when I first met her. I guess she always struck people as that.
Anyway, Katie and I started talking about
something and Penelope and Little Joe joined in the conversation once in a while. But then Penelope got up and
walked out, saying she had to go do something. Katie fell silent. Little Joe stood up, went to the doorway,
paused, looked back at Katie, and then followed Penelope.
Katie was ECSTATIC! She burst out, "He went after
her! He went after her!"
Now, me, I'm pretty slow when it comes to untangling cryptic remarks from women. I
had no clue as to what just happened. I said, "Huh?"
Katie said, "He went after Penny!"
I said, "Who the
H*** is Penny? I keep hearing about her."
Katie goes, "THAT was Penny! The girl who just left here."
Me:
"THAT was Penny? I thought her name was Penelope!"
Katie: "Her name IS Penelope. But everyone calls her Penny.
We've been friends for a few years."
Me: "Wow. I met her two years ago and I just never put you two together
as friends."
Katie: "It was more of a high school thing. But I decided she might be a good match for Little
Joe."
Me: "Huh?"
Katie explained that when Little Joe learned Big Joe was dating Katie, Little Joe went
through the roof. He had been arranging to sit next to Katie at every group function (lunches, dinners, games,
movies, WHATEVER). Most people just assumed that she was tolerating his company because she didn't want to date
anyone.
Well, his jealous explosion was the last straw. Katie realized she couldn't stay with the group AND
keep tormenting Little Joe, so she decided to invite Penny/Penelope to participate in some of the group's social
functions.
It took about a month, as I recall, but Little Joe eventually made that choice to follow after
Penelope. I don't think he ever actually caught on to the fact that Katie had set them up. I don't think ANYONE
ever knew she had done that except Katie, Big Joe, and me.
Katie and Big Joe ended up getting married (they are
still happily married today). Penny and Little Joe also ended up getting married (THEY are still happily married
today).
I don't believe the two couples see each other any more, but that whole group from college became so
large and so dramatic we ended up diverging into multiple little paths. I try to stay in touch with several of my
old friends, and through them I hear about many of the others.
Anyway, that is a long anecdote, but maybe
you'll find something useful in it if your talk with this guy doesn't go well on Monday.
I am not suggesting
you owe it to him to fix him up with anyone. I am only illustrating how Katie turned a bad situation into something
positive when she just became totally frustrated with Little Joe's unwelcome persistence.
It's an option you
may want to keep in your back pocket in case the talk bears no fruit.
Push his attention elsewhere is
another option
If he was like me he would pick up on the not interested hint - move on quickly - if it is
early enough i would keep it casual friends otherwise i would reduce the time spent with her if she reciprated i
would after a while cut contact if she got a little upset might take hte time to keep doing the friends
thing
But as an alpha mentality (for the guys and lurker guys reading this thread) its all about accepting
the not interested signal - strong ones anyway at face value and looking for the "im interested" signals and then if
you in turn like her follow it up
Id rather much an easier time in getting a girl that is actually interested
(even if slightly less attractive) than chasing the 8 outta 10 stuck up type who will only string you along and then
play ya for a fool. (chocolat you really need to set him straight and lets hope he gets the "hint") if he doesnt
you just need to make youreself less available time wise - go out with other friends and spend less time with him or
divert his attention elsewhere.
Paying is definitely *not* needy. Not if you do it in the right manner. I'd say the guy who does itPaying = alpha
male? You're either basically telling me 98% of the guys who walk on earth are alpha, or you have a really weird
perspective
Paying is needy, as in, I need to pay to keep you interested (and to give you gifts and to
tell you you're beautiful and to bow at your mere presence).
What if I say I'd be offended if the girl
didn't pay for me? Does it make any sense? Thought so. So why should it work the other way around?
Yoel
naturally as if it's what he's been taught to do pulls it off best. If you come off like you're angling for pussy
when you pay (desperate,) then don't pay. I said earlier on this board (somewhere) that if you can combine chivalry
with confidence, you've got her under your thumb. I mean that you *should* pay if you are romantically interested
in a woman, because ontop of assuming that you can afford it, she'll assume that this is "what your mama taught
you." Brownie points! When you pay, you're saying *many* things about yourself. You won't believe how many times I
have heard women refer to a man as "cheap" because he didn't pay. I admit it's a real turnoff if a guy asks me out
and then doesn't pay. He doesn't get another date and he *definitely* doesn't get physical with me.
I read
a webpage somewhere about body language and how women sometimes do not allow the man to pay because they don't want
to create a sense of "debt." (i.e. I payed for your dinner so open your legs, missy.)
I expressed this in a
different manner. I will pay if I want to keep things friendly and non-romantic. But it could possibly cause a girl
to feel indebted somehow to you (in a small way.)
P.S. 98% of males pay? Are you kidding? Maybe in other
countries, but I think feminism really f*ed this one up for the women who like to be treated like a lady. You know
that in other countries, when they split the bill, they don't call it, "going Dutch," they call it "going
American."
When did paying become chivalrous? I
know many ways to be the most awesome gentleman, and none of them include money. And that definitely doesn't mean
that I'm cheap, because I actually am the opposite.
WHAT? I won't even comment on this.
Let me quote myself
though, since you cunningly evaded my remark:
"What if I say I'd be offended if the girl didn't pay for me?
Does it make any sense? Thought so. So why should it work the other way around?"
Yoel
אני להיות לא באמת יהודי
Just to jump in with my 2
cents...
The whole argument is based on tradition. Traditionally speaking offering to pay for a meal when on a
date is just something you do (as a man), or at least that's how I was taught. It never has been the other way
around. As for chivalry, paying for dinner is just a modern adaptation of an old set of standards of proper
gentlemanly behavior. Just like openning the door and letting her enter first, walking on the side of her most
likely to encounter danger (as in if on a sidewalk walking on the side closest to the road), pulling out the chair
and seating her at dinner, standing up from the table when she leaves and returns, and many of these things aren't
even related to being romantic...they are just the way you are supposed to act when you are around a woman (ie the
door thing etc).
To address your response about being offended if she didnt pay...I would be offended if I was
on a date (and we both KNEW it was a date) and I wasn't allowed to pay for dinner...stems from the whole being able
to offer security and protection (not necessarily financial but being protective in a small thing leads to having
the opportunity to be protective in a larger thing).
Like I said this is just my 2 cents and how I was raised.
I have always received compliments for my mannerisms from women.
Hey, I'm totally for a good dose of chivalry. Opening doors, the sidewalk rule,
pulling chairs are all great things to do. Because those aren't showoffs.
You'd be offended? That's because you need to prove you would be able to protect her
and can't convey that impression otherwise. You have to work on your persona, you sound a little insecure. I mean
that in the nicest way possible.
Besides, I wasn't talking about a guy asking a gal for a date (?), like it's a
favor the girl does to him. Is she so kind for letting you "loser" "take her out"? I'd say she's as lucky as I am
when we hang out.
I do too. If you didn't pay, you would receive them
anyway. It's the other things that you do.
PS: You stated "just my two cents" TWICE in your post. Then you
closed with "I'm right because other people tell me so". You need to respect yourself more, I bet you are a great
guy. Feel your power, you are just as confident as you allow yourself to be.
Yoel
אני להיות לא באמת יהודי
Its not that I can't convey the impression of being able to offer protection and
security in any other way besides paying for dinner. Its about earning trust with something as small as this
(subconscienously) as a stepping stone for her openning up more with larger things, making herself more vunerable.
Before a woman will open up to you with things that you could hurt her with you have to show that you won't abuse
the information or whatever she is willing to give up to you. The trust has to start somewhere it doesnt just appear
instantly--on a first date 99% of the time you aren't going to learn about the deepest most personal things about
your date. Thats the type of "large" things you have to work your way up to in order to reach them. Starting to
climb the ladder of trust has to begin with one rung. Being allowed to pay for dinner is a VERY VERY small thing,
but it can be that first rung.
When I said offended, I didn't mean that I would be disgusted or like what the
he!!???. I meant that if I offered to pay for dinner and she absolutely refused to let me pay (her offering to pay,
but then letting me isn't what I am talking about) would send up a huge red flag for me. I would be thinking
"wonder whats up with that??" This is all about being trusted...by letting a man pay for dinner the woman is saying
"Ill let you get this, but I am trusting you not to expect anything from me for letting you do it." If the girl
won't let me pay then that strikes me as her not feeling comfortable enough with me to not do that and thereby not
being protective of her.
A lot of this is just part of the subliminal mind games that people play when
involving dating. Most women just won't come out and say I'm not letting you do this because I think you are going
to try and take advantage of it later, but prefer to use more subtle hints in the hopes that one of them will be
able to snake through that large thick male skull of ours.
I am actually very confident and secure in just
about everything I do...Im the elected president of my fraternity and I am also getting married this summer
Some guys make paying for dates
look like a loser's only hope of getting sex. Dating is about getting to know people. If a man is romantically
interested in a woman, he needs to let her know that he is interesting, fun, and creative. But if she is a woman who
wants to know whether the guy is relationship material, he needs to demonstrate he won't try to sponge off her. He
needs to show that he is potential husband/provider material. So, he pays.
Paying for the date is just a way of
demonstrating your financial success. If you go into it thinking, "Well, I'm paying for the date, so I should get
something out of it" (like a kiss, or anything), then you are better off going to a prostitute.
When should a
guy pay? When the girl he dates is someone who is interested in him. Period. A lot of guys make the mistake of
dating women who are not interested in them. They hope that by paying for the dates, the women realize (through
interacting with them) that they are great guys. But if you cannot get the woman interested before the date, you're
probably not going to get her interested after you pay. After all, you're just counting on the "I'm a good
provider" facet of your personality to intrigue her. Most American women won't go for that. They want more: someone
who makes them laugh, makes them feel comfortable, makes them feel sexy without creeping them out.
You're
supposed to do all that BEFORE you date her. By the time you get to the date, she should be asking herself if you
have potential.
And first dates don't have to be blockbuster, pull-out-all-the-stops expensive dates. In
fact, they should NOT be. A first date can be relatively low-key, inexpensive, even SPONTANEOUS (unplanned, just
set it up on the spot and then spend the time together).
First things
first. If you offer to pick up the tab and the girls doesn't let you no-matter-what, then something is wrong, and
you are right on that.
Probably we come from different backgrounds. I prefer eliciting feelings with mutual
feelings and then letting them flow. You talk about "earning" her trust, I personally don't think paying dinner is
the right way to do it. I actually don't think you should have to earn anything she doesn't. Like I said in the
following unquoted part of my post, she should earn my trust too. We are at the same level, I'm against idolatry.
That said, to each his own.
Good for youI am actually very confident and secure in just about everything
I do...Im the elected president of my fraternity and I am also getting married this summer
(Wish you luck
)
Nonetheless, you just had to prove it externally,
telling me you have the approval of your gf and of your pals. Confidence comes from the inside.
I'd have been
more impressed by "I am actually very confident and secure in everything I do
Yoel
אני להיות לא באמת יהודי
Well, in America, at least, if
you don't pay for dinner, you don't make much of an impression.
Even so, too many guys end up paying for
dinner with someone who isn't interested in anything other than dinner.
Women have bought me lunch and dinner,
and drinks (happened yesterday, as a matter of fact). I'm not insulted. I buy women lunch and dinner. Sometimes
I have a relationship with them, sometimes I don't.
Sometimes I'm just being generous.
It's no big
deal.
True, like I said though paying
for dinner is something I consider VERY VERY miniscule in the grand scheme, and I agree there is much more to be
gained by connecting on the emotional level rather than just showering in gifts and such.
Thanks for the
well-wishing, and the only reason I even mentioned that is becuase its hard to express emotion out of a text file
;-)
If you feel at ease and "it's not a big deal" when you pay for
lunch, then fine. You also accept the opposite and you don't really care. I was questioning the fact that you
"should" do it to prove or earn something. As a matter of fact, I do pay when I feel like to, and I get treated
other times. If a woman judges me on the basis of that, it's her problem, I'm not trying to "impress"
anyone.
Yoel
אני להיות לא באמת יהודי
First
impressions are very important, and not even offering to get dinner tends to leave a negative after-taste.
After you've been dating for a while it isn't really a factor at all. Like now, sometimes I get dinner and
sometimes my gf does--neither of us give it a second thought. Its just about that inital impression.
You still don't
understand.
It IS about proving something. However, some guys mistakenly believe it is a means to an end (that
is, they think they can EARN it). And there ARE some women who WILL let you earn something that way, but most
won't.
Guys who sneer at paying for dates seem to share a common mythology about seduction. I've noticed in
browsing a few seduction forums that guys brag about not paying for dates. Few of them seem to have wives,
girlfriends, or any sort of stable relationships. Whether they actually get all the sex they claim to is another
matter altogether.
Dating is not about sex. Dating is about figuring out whether you are attracted to an
interesting, well-rounded person or a psychotic axe-murderer.
This appears to be another of those situations
where guys just don't get it about the girls. To the girls, it IS extremely important. They judge us on
everything we say and do. If they just want a roll in the hay, they aren't likely to go to all the trouble and
effort of enticing some guy to ask them out on a date.
This is so true, Friendly1. Dating is just
like a male peacock spreading his feathers. The female sits back and watches, analyzes, and decides who she's going
to keep and who gets a "Next!" Evolutionary psychology is important.
As long as these men keep being proud
of *not* paying for dates, they are going to get low quality women. You get out what you put in. A keepable woman
will expect a gentleman, I promise. I'm not trying to f*ck anyone over here. It seems like sometimes my comments
are being taken as me attempting to make things better for other women. Honestly, I don't *care* what you do with
other women because it's not *me*. I already *know* my boundaries and I am pretty good at avoiding being taken
advantage of. We're all here because we have a desire for *something*, whether it be sex or love or popularity or
power.
I'm trying to give you all some insight into how I believe women work in hopes that you'll give me
some insight into how men work.
Ok, some people aren't comfortable
with the whole watching, analyzing and decision making process. They are trying to shift the balance of power to
equal footing. I can't blame anyone for not wanting to be on the short end of power. Some head strong or
frustrated people choose to fight it. It is about getting back control they feel they've
lost.
Unfortunately, men product the number of sperm in a second that women produce of eggs in a lifetime, so
I don't think we'll ever be on equal footing in the dating regard. Going after women who aren't as good looking
as you might help level the playing field though.
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