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Thread: Body Language

  1. #91
    Phero Enthusiast phersurf's Avatar
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    visit-red-300x50PNG
    I don't think you read my whole

    post. Most of what you said is just a rewording of what I said.

    Again (to repeat, to reiterate, to restate),

    I've approached women that did not even look at me let alone give me any signs of interest, and through my

    behaviors and what I've said (cocky and funny), they started showing signs of interest (yes, through their body

    language). I ABSOLUTELY created attraction in these women (OK, I trigered switches, symantics)!

    If you wait

    for them to show body language signs of interest, then you are limiting the number of women you approach.

  2. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by phersurf
    I don't think

    you read my whole post. Most of what you said is just a rewording of what I said.
    I read your post. I'm

    just disagreeing with you more than you realize. You CANNOT create attraction in anyone who is not already

    attracted to you in some way.

    There is no "waiting for them to show body language" to you. The body language is

    in action before you ever open your mouth to say something cocky and funny.

    You just have to tune into it to see

    it.

  3. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by Friendly1
    You CANNOT

    create attraction in anyone who is not already attracted to you in some way.
    it's really hard to create

    attraction in a girl you already know but during cold approaching, you can create attraction from a girl who isn't

    attracted to you if your game is tight through manupulation techniques or c&f.

  4. #94
    Phero Enthusiast phersurf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Friendly1
    You CANNOT

    create attraction in anyone who is not already attracted to you in some way.
    Oh...now I have

    to disagree with you, in a major way!!

    Why are you so adamant in your belief that it is not possible to

    create attraction in a woman? I've seen it happen before my eyes, and better, yet have done it.


    Haven't

    you ever seen a hot woman with a guy several steps below her in looks?

    In the last 6-8 months I've had more

    than one woman say to me things like, "I don't know why I'm with you, you're not my type. I usually go out with

    men that are (taller, younger, richer) and you're none of them." Again, these are women that never even saw me

    until I approached them. So they had no initial attraction to me. I didn't wait for them to show me any kind of

    positive body language (although after talking to them for 10 minutes they sure were!).

    Mens' and women's

    brains work much differently when it comes to attraction. All men have to do is see a hot woman (whatever that is to

    the individual), women have to see the right behaviors of status, confidence, etc to be demonstrated and they become

    attracted (unless you look like Brad Pitt).

  5. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by Friendly1
    You CANNOT create

    attraction in anyone who is not already attracted to you in some way.
    Meaning either a) that looks

    are, in fact, the Master Key or b) that proper non-verbal communication can polish the most unsightly of

    turds.

    One of the two?
    If a guy's a cocksucker in his life, when he dies, he don't become a saint. - Morris Levy, Hitmen

    Holmes' Theme Song

  6. #96
    Phero Enthusiast phersurf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Holmes
    Meaning either a)

    that looks are, in fact, the Master Key or b) that proper non-verbal communication can polish the most unsightly of

    turds.

    One of the two?
    It's the proper non-verbal communication I'm talking about.



    An OK looking guy with the right non-verbal communication is much more attractive to most women than a great

    looking guy that is a wussy (except maybe if she is only looking for a one night stand).

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    I think the latter is true, at

    least in my case. Not tall, not dark and can't tan, average looking, partially bald and grey haired. About the only

    part of my looks that could be above average are the way I move (lots of marshal arts training has it's benefits)

    and my eyes which are bright blue and get frequent comments. Yet women in their late 20s and up seem to find me

    attractive. It's hard to attribute my results to anything but my attitude which is supremely confident and

    unconcerned with anybody's opinion and almost always cheerful.

    What makes me think Phersurf has a point is

    that they usually don't start showing an interest in me until they've been around me for a while. It isn't an

    instant attraction but something that seems to surface over a few minutes time. Mones probably help but they aren't

    that powerful.
    To compel a man to subsidize with his taxes the propagation of ideas which he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical.

    Thomas Jefferson

  8. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by TRock
    it's really hard

    to create attraction in a girl you already know but during cold approaching, you can create attraction from a girl

    who isn't attracted to you if your game is tight through manupulation techniques or c&f.
    You can stir the

    pot, but you don't get to put the ingredients in.

  9. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by phersurf
    Oh...now I have

    to disagree with you, in a major way!!

    Why are you so adamant in your belief that it is not possible to

    create attraction in a woman? I've seen it happen before my eyes, and better, yet have done it.




    Because you cannot induce another person to change their nature in the space of a few moments. You're taking

    gimmicks from seduction gurus and using them without understanding what is really going on.

    These girls all had

    the capacity to find you attractive before you said or did anything. All you can do is turn on the juice and let

    them feel the current.

    You cannot make them find you attractive. You cannot create attraction in them. You

    cannot alter their psychological makeup.

    All you can do is enhance whatever natural attributes you possess which

    most if not all women would find attractive.

    And reading body language would speed up the process for you. I

    assure you, there are plenty of days where I cannot handle all the comeons from girls and women. I say that with

    all modesty because most of them don't wait for me to "create attraction".

    They size you up in about 2 seconds.

    It takes a girl far less time to determine if she finds a guy attractive than it does a guy to make that decision

    about her. That is not an exaggeration. It's been established through studies which measured things like

    eye-movement, body actions, and more.

    So, by the time you're figuring out how you're going to be cocky and

    funny, she has already decided whether to give you a chance to TRY to be cocky and funny.

    It happens THAT

    quickly.

  10. #100
    Phero Enthusiast phersurf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Friendly1
    [/b]



    Because you cannot induce another person to change their nature in the space of a few moments. You're taking

    gimmicks from seduction gurus and using them without understanding what is really going on.
    I'm not

    inducing them to change their behavior. I'm utilizing the way a woman's limbic brain works and communicating with

    that part. I'm actually using her natural behavior to bypass her rational brain.

    These girls all had

    the capacity to find you attractive before you said or did anything. All you can do is turn on the juice and let

    them feel the current.
    You're right. They do have the capacity to find me attractive, if I behave in

    the ways that communicate with her limbic brain that I'm a high status, confident male. No amount of appealing to

    her rational brain by trying to convince her what a great guy I am will work.

    You cannot make them

    find you attractive. You cannot create attraction in them. You cannot alter their psychological

    makeup.
    Yes you can, yes you can! You've never heard a woman say something like, "I don't know why

    I'm dating this guy, initially I found him unatactive". Or how about the opposite, "that guy was so good looking,

    but he brought me flowers on the first date. Gross! That's his last date" I heard 2 women say this exact thing in a

    restaurant the other day. It seems to me that these woman's psychological makeup was altered.

    All

    you can do is enhance whatever natural attributes you possess which most if not all women would find attractive.



    And reading body language would speed up the process for you. I assure you, there are plenty of days where I

    cannot handle all the comeons from girls and women. I say that with all modesty because most of them don't wait

    for me to "create attraction".

    They size you up in about 2 seconds. It takes a girl far less time to

    determine if she finds a guy attractive than it does a guy to make that decision about her. That is not an

    exaggeration. It's been established through studies which measured things like eye-movement, body actions, and

    more.

    So, by the time you're figuring out how you're going to be cocky and funny, she has already decided

    whether to give you a chance to TRY to be cocky and funny.

    It happens THAT quickly.
    Actually

    it's about 7 seconds. But again you're talking about physical attractiveness. This is much less imprtant to women

    than it is to men.

    I once saw a guy (a student of a guy named Mystery) that is 40 lbs overweight, about

    5'7" and about 42 years old approach three 20 something hoties at a club. As he approached I saw a look of (almost)

    disgust from a couple of the women. I'm thinking to myself, "this guy is going to get shot down in flames!" I

    watched him have them laughing within minutes and he walked away with their phone numbers. About an hour later I saw

    him in the corner of the club making out with one of them!

    That's it I'm done. I'm never going to comvince

    you of the stuff I've seen work right in front of me and by me. Maybe you're just one of those lucky guys that

    looks like a model and has women approaching him so none of this is neccessary for you. But for the other 85% of

    us....

  11. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by phersurf

    Women are

    ..... and could care less if she is intersted in him or not.
    I've approached


    how do you TRY and create attraction and then at the same time convey that you are not

    interested in whether they are intersted?

    also, I've found playing it cool and don't care leads to nothing

    but the "no balls" impression.

    And.....(I feel like Bart right now) does Mick Reeves think it is ok to be

    show that you give a sh!t if you are confident and smooth in your chase.
    "An investment in knowledge always pays the best interest."
    --Benjamin Franklin

  12. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by phersurf
    I'm not

    inducing them to change their behavior. I'm utilizing the way a woman's limbic brain works and communicating with

    that part. I'm actually using her natural behavior to bypass her rational brain.
    You just think you're

    doing that. Girls know they like guys with attitude and humor. They tell men that ALL THE TIME. I know I have read

    tons of roundup articles and surveys where women reveal their "deepest secrets" about how guys get them.

    Not

    coincidentally, the guys like DeAngelo are preaching the same thing: be confident, a little funny, a little

    arrogant. So, the girls know what you are doing. You're not bypassing anything.


    Yes you can, yes

    you can! You've never heard a woman say something like, "I don't know why I'm dating this guy, initially I found

    him unatactive".
    She knows why. Women say one thing but mean another. They'll all tell you that.



    Actually it's about 7 seconds.
    It's about 2-3 seconds, but why quibble? They size guys up

    faster than guys size them up (it takes us about ten times as long to make an equivalent assessment of them).



    And, no, I am NOT talking about physical attractiveness. Women take in the whole picture.

    That's it

    I'm done. I'm never going to comvince you of the stuff I've seen work right in front of me and by me.

    You're not looking at the whole picture. You've zeroed in on a few ideas and gimmicks and you haven't studied

    the psychology behind them. So, no, you're NOT going to convince me. I have no doubt that what you're doing

    works better for you than what you were doing before. Never doubted that.

    I'm just saying that if you pay more

    attention to body language, you will empower yourself in ways you cannot yet imagine. Try it. Body language helps

    in all aspects of life. It's good to know if you do or don't have a rapport with someone, especially someone

    you've just met who can make or break a deal you're working on.

    It goes well beyond sex.

  13. #103
    Phero Enthusiast phersurf's Avatar
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    A lot of the stuff I'm talkng

    about (and where David D gets much of his stuff) can be found in these books.

    The Mating Mind : How Sexual

    Choice Shaped the Evolution of Human Nature by GEOFFREY MILLER

    The Evolution of Desire: Strategies of Human

    Mating by David M. Buss

    The Red Queen: Sex and the Evolution of Human Nature by Matt Ridley

    These

    aren't gimicks, it's a way of being. They're ideas based on the scientific studies. Just like lower animals have

    to go step by step through a mating ritual (if one step is skipped, the ritual ends), humans do to. David D just

    teaches men how to carry out their part of it.

    Women have an architype buried in their brain of how a good

    choice for a mate should behave. When a guy comes along that acts like that, she can't help but be

    atracted.

    About 2 weeks ago I was in a bar with a freind and I started busting on this attractive married 30

    something (I had no intention of following through). I had her really going. SHe was giving me all the positive body

    language (see, I do use it. I just don't wait for a woman to exhibit it before I approach her), touching my arm

    continually, laughing and saying things like "oh, you're terrible!" and "you'e a jerk!" in a mock angry tone of

    voice, flicking her hair, etc. All of a sudden, her expression changes and she almost looks scared and blurts out

    out of nowhere, "I'm married!". She excuses herself to go to the restroom, but minutes later I see her looking for

    her freind. I see her grab her freind and rush her out the door. I was stunned, it was like a switch was thrown in

    her mind.

    If I wasn't communicating with her limbic brain (and creating an intense attraction) and bypassing

    her rational mind, how would you explain her behavior?

  14. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by Friendly1
    I'm just

    saying that if you pay more attention to body language, you will empower yourself in ways you cannot yet imagine.

    Try it. Body language helps in all aspects of life. It's good to know if you do or don't have a rapport with

    someone, especially someone you've just met who can make or break a deal you're working on.

    It goes well

    beyond sex.
    i agree completely with this. david d talks about subcommunication alot but he emphasizes on

    you projecting the right sub communication.

    what Phersurf said is on point too. the right subcommunication

    creates attraction in a woman, while the wrong subcommunication signals wussy or beta male. when it comes down to

    it, we're all animals. the last 100 years can't change millions of years of evolution of what the archetypal

    attrative male is to a woman. so yes you can create attraction if you are the archetypal male that phersurf is

    talking about which is the same subcommunication that friendly is talking about.

  15. #105
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    Well, this thread is mad

    long, so I read the original post and a whole bunch of random threads, but not all of them.

    For the most

    part, I've discovered that many of these books only have served to make me think too much while I'm in a public

    place doing my thing. Thinking too much in a social situation with a new potential only serves to usually mess

    things up.

    This is what I do.

    I constantly survey the room - looking for people who are staring at

    me. If there's a girl staring at me, I will meet her gaze and keep it - this is usually for about 4-5 seconds

    although it seems longer. Once she looks away, I will look away and never meet her eyes again - however, through my

    periphery I see if she tries to look back at me.

    Almost every public place that I'm at, I usually have 3-4

    friends who are girls who are also knockouts - I'm always with one of them making them laugh out loud and

    attracting the attention of other people around me. Being seen as cool with some good looking chicks goes along way

    towards comfort. Being seen as cool with the friend of a hot chick automatically raises comfort in the eyes of the

    hot chick.

    Later, I'll run into her and EVERY SINGLE TIME she is open to a conversation. Half the time its

    her initiating the conversation and half the time its me. The subject of conversation is not important - its the

    dynamics of the exchange - it should be playful.

    My conversations are always funny - I am purposefully

    sarcastic (but so extreme that she knows I don't mean it). I'll tease her and make her laugh. ALL THE TIME I AM

    ONLY STARING RIGHT INTO HER EYES - not around the room and not at any other part of her. The point of making her

    laugh is so she starts slapping or poking me. When she does this, I keep on being funny and do not take her physical

    contact as an invitation to reciprocate. All she is telling me is she is comfortable around me - she's not saying

    put your hands on me too. If she isn't laughing, I don't want her. It means she is a bitch or preoccupied with

    something temporarily.

    A lot of the body launguage crap I read, although interesting, is too much info and

    encourages me to read something that isn't really there. I have discovered that if she laughs a lot when we speak,

    thats all that I need. That's an in and all it takes after that is to increase my desirability in her eyes - and

    that's a whole another thread - and it has very little to do with body language - but more a confident holistic

    whole that is independant of the woman.

    I will say this, if your conversation is mostly about you trying to

    convince the girl what a great catch you are, you're not going to succeed all that often. If you like to have your

    hands all over a new potential, you're also not going to succeed all that often unless you're Richard Gere and a

    millionaire. Girls like a mystery - they like to discover clues along the way - give them what they want. When you

    tell them all about yourself right way, its like telling someone that Darth Vader is Luke Skywalker's father and

    Leia is the sister. You have robbed them of the pleasure of 3 movies - and thats what the girl wants - the journey -

    not the destination. Guys want the destination - help her get there, but let her enjoy the movie first.

    Just

    be funny. You don't know how? Go to Border's and get a book. It worked for me and I'm really not all that

    good-looking. Funny goes along way towards increasing desirability and its one thing we all have direct control

    over.

    If you're not funny, then this e-mail won't help you. Sorry for wasting your time. Girls expecting a

    cheesy pickup line need not apply.
    Last edited by Chemist; 01-19-2005 at 09:57 PM.

  16. #106
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    ^ i agree with everything you say

    except for not touching her. kino or light touching (not needy touching) is essential when talking to a girl.

  17. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chemist
    Well, this

    thread is mad long, so I read the original post and a whole bunch of random threads, but not all of them.

    For

    the most part, I've discovered that many of these books only have served to make me think too much while I'm in a

    public place doing my thing. Thinking too much in a social situation with a new potential only serves to usually

    mess things up.

    This is what I do.
    You're right, and some people call this syndrome "Paralysis by

    Analysis". However, if you can discipline yourself to just do the observing and analyzing at different times from

    when you do the actual socializing, you can develop a reflexive talent for doing the observing and analyzing

    subconsciously.

    That is why, when I first started talking about studying body language here, I advised people to

    just go out and observe.

    I constantly survey the room - looking for people who are staring at me. If

    there's a girl staring at me, I will meet her gaze and keep it - this is usually for about 4-5 seconds although it

    seems longer. Once she looks away, I will look away and never meet her eyes again - however, through my periphery I

    see if she tries to look back at me.
    Standard courtship behavior, and it's good that you mastered this

    technique on your own. This is the first step, and it is where so many guys just mess up without ever realizing

    it.

    Now, I agree with pretty much everything you said up to this point -- good technique and all. No need to

    quote it.

    A lot of the body launguage crap I read, although interesting, is too much info and encourages

    me to read something that isn't really there.
    Let me emphasize again that only a small portion of these

    resources is really directly applicable to meeting and getting to know women. Body language doesn't stop at

    courtship and mating. It extends throughout our relationships with other people and with animals.

    Master the

    skills of reading body language, and you will benefit from them in the workplace, with your family, with your

    friends, and when you meet complete strangers or deal with crowds (yes, there is even body language which is

    specific to crowds).

    No one here is wrong to NOT want to learn more about body language. I just feel it has

    made me a more well-rounded individual, and I believe everyone who takes the time to study it would equally benefit,

    if not more so.

  18. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by TRock
    ^ i agree with

    everything you say except for not touching her. kino or light touching (not needy touching) is essential when

    talking to a girl.
    Not to argue with you about the benefit of controlled touching, but here is an

    interesting aside to a lot of the guys who want to know how to tell if a girl is interested.

    Get her talking,

    get her smiling, get her laughing if you can. DO NOT TOUCH HER. Wait to see if she touches you first. If she

    does, SHE IS MOST LIKELY INTERESTED.

    After that, do the Kino thing if you must, but if you're not sure even

    when she is laughing and smiling, then just wait and see if she accidentally brushes against you. It's usually not

    accidental, and is usually a very, very positive sign of interest.

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    This thread is taking a life of its

    own.

    I make a woman laugh and MOST OF THE TIME, they will start slapping me and poking me. IT DOES NOT MEAN

    THEY WANT TO SLEEP WITH ME. It means they haven't put me out of the running yet. It means they are comfortable,

    they find my company interesting, and it's a green light - but the finish line is way up ahead in the distance.



    The important thing to decide at this point is if I just want to have sex with her or so I want something

    for the future.

    If I just want to have sex with her, then touching back might be the thing to do - do that

    kino crap. However, most of the time, that isn't what I want - in that case - touching her back is THE WRONG THING

    TO DO. It confounds signals and sometimes inhibits her. If its done right, she will eventually be the one taking my

    clothes off - because she is gaga over me (this takes weeks). In many cases, touching her at the wrong time is like

    driving through road construction - a slowdown of traffic.

    Although I believe body language is important, its

    not as important as some would have you believe when in comes to women and their games. If it's done right, its

    pretty obvious she's interested - she will be laughing all the time - at seemingly unfunny statements - and

    eventually she will be calling me and acting all goofy.

    Ok- getting ahead of ourselves.

    Bottom line,

    is decide what you want and then do the right things to acheive that goal. I don't normally do kino - that doesn't

    work for my goal, although I acknowledge it has worked for others I have personally seen.
    Last edited by Chemist; 01-20-2005 at 11:35 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chemist
    Although I

    believe body language is important, its not as important as some would have you believe when in comes to women and

    their games. If it's done right, its pretty obvious she's interested - she will be laughing all the time - at

    seemingly unfunny statements - and eventually she will be calling me and acting all goofy.
    And you'll be

    reading her body language all along.

    I don't recommend that anyone get hung up on body language. It is a

    wonderful thing to understand when you get to the point where you can laugh and interact with people and just KNOW

    what their state of mind is and who they are interested in.

    A friend of mine, who is somewhat older than me,

    lives with his girlfriend who is just a few years younger than me (I think she is 40-41). Nonetheless, my friend,

    call him "Bill", goes out with girls in their 20s. He does pretty well with them.

    Last night he introduced me

    to "Jennifer". She was a total knockout. Fortunately, I had my own young lady coming to join me, so I didn't have

    to feel like a third wheel for long. But Jennifer kept her body positioned facing me all evening. When I danced

    with her a couple of times, she really, really got into it. I could tell she was a little turned on.

    I made

    sure I gave my own friend special attention, and I made sure I gave Jennifer some extra space when I danced with

    her. Jennifer probably understood what was going on, but she was still flirting with me.

    All I know for sure is

    that Jennifer was enjoying herself and she was mirroring my sitting position throughout the night. So, she was more

    into me than into Bill. But then, she already knew she had Bill's interest. She may have only wanted to see if

    she could hook me, too.

    In a situation like that, I put my friendship with Bill first and my interest in the

    other girl second. But it may have worked out in my favor, as the other girl, who sat next to Jennifer, clearly saw

    who was and was not interested in me (and there were quite a few girls sitting around the table).

    If my girl

    looked bored, I took her on the dance floor. If she looked like she was engaged in conversation with someone else,

    I ignored her (she is quite beautiful, and when I was younger I would have just stared at her -- big NO NO, guys).



    I didn't spend time analyzing what these girls were doing. I just focused on having a good time, but my

    knowledge of body language helped me figure out what I needed to be doing with whom and when so that no one was

    feeling left out (if they wanted my attention), no one was feeling creeped out by me, and everyone had a good time

    while interacting with me.

    That is what it is all about. Improving our natural interaction with others. It's

    not about being calculating and manipulative, it's not about doing things in a rigid, by-the-book style. It's

    being able to tune in and see or sense what is going on and moving with the natural flow in the group.

    I have

    enough practice that I didn't have to hesitate and think about anything. But I did have to practice (which

    involved observing and analyzing what people do for months) in order to reach this point in my social skills.

  21. #111
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    Kino when done correctly can be

    powerful, but you have to know what you are doing (when and where to touch).

    Touching is generally done by the

    dominant male in group situations, and some mild non-sexual touching (perhaps on her arm near her elbow) can show

    you are confident and open/friendly, but only if done appropriately.
    CptKipling

    Information about pheromones: Pheromone Information Library

  22. #112
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    Just to give you guys a background.

    I am 39 and most of the girls I spend my time with are 18-23. However, there are a few older girls (women?) that I

    interact with and whether or not they are 18 or 44, in terms of showing interest and the various stages and dynamics

    - it is exactly the same! The older ones just don't bullcrap around - and they talk more forwardly about things -

    but its the same thing. The girls act the same and show interest in the same way. The topics of conversation are

    different though, but again, its not the actual topic - its the dynamics - if its playful, then I'm in.

    Oh

    yes, get a phone number guys. That helps too.

    A lot of the younger guys actually ask me how I do what I do

    and when I tell them - they do not believe it. WHAT - don't touch her??? WHAT - don't talk on the phone for hours

    with her???? WHAT - don't be nice to her????

    Sometimes I'll tell a guy what will happen if he keeps on

    doing what he's doing - and everytime I've been right.

    Too bad I didn't figure this stuff out when I was

    younger.

    BTW - all this stuff I discovered AFTER pheromones. Pheromones was the first concious decision I

    made to change myself from a needy, desperate, and pussy of a man (hey, that's what my mother told me was best -

    that's good behavior for a son - its BAD behavior for a boyfriend - sorry Mom) into a man that has more women to

    spend time with than time on my hands. Pheromones make progress with a girl ever so easier - but it would have

    happened on its own regardless. They definately help - its like using a super duper molecular lubricant instead of

    vaseline.

  23. #113
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    ^ did you get to where you are

    right now on your own discovery or through seduction material?

  24. #114
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    I am a academic researcher and thus

    it is hard to say where my ideas begin and others end. I spent my whole life observing and trying different things.

    I read scientific journals on the dynamics of relationships (someone is researching that right now at my school) and

    as any researcher would - I kept a notebook and analyzed what was appropriate (dork, yes I know, but it worked for

    me).

    Consequently, I ordered EVERY SINGLE SEDUCTION METHOD I COULD that gave me a money back guarentee. The

    flaw of most of these methods is that they are too specific and will not work with everybody - either that or they

    are too general and do not give enough specifics.

    When I ordered each of these methods, I warned the seller

    that there is a likelihood these are coming back and I spend a paragraph giving them my background and academic

    ideas.

    I read every single word - and no one does it right - however from each I found roughly 10%-25% or so

    useful - I then would offer whatever percentage of material I found valuable to the seller and offered that money

    instead of a full refund. I would also specifically point out where that particular method was flawed and used

    specific academic references to back my claims up. The inevitable outcome was a full refund.

    With all of

    these methods, my own research, and phereomones together, this is where I am now. It works for me - it may not

    necessarily work for you. If you want a lasting relationship with someone - the best advice I can give you is to be

    funny. If you just want to hook-up with someone, I'll tell you exactly what I tell someone in person, I can't help

    you.

    What I really mean is that I'm not interested in doing that anymore and thus I haven't had the

    resources to figure out how to do that. My time is spent now working on relationships with the girls I know now or

    will meet in the near future.
    Last edited by Chemist; 01-20-2005 at 11:37 AM.

  25. #115
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    Thanks for the imput Chemist. You

    and F-1 had a very informative dialogue and both of you deserve a tip of the hat from this community.

  26. #116
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    I disagree with the no touching

    unless she touches you first advice.

    If, and only if, you have a good rapport built up with her it can be

    done. If you have her in that state where she is laughing at all your bad jokes, when you say something that you

    both laugh at, at that moment it is OK (more than OK, it builds sexual tension) to give her a light touch on a very

    innocuous place. The forearm is a great place. Just do it lightly and don't bring any attention to it.

    When

    you touch a woman it releases a hormone called oxytocin (same with men but a much lower amount) that actually cause

    her to want to be touched more.

    But if you don't know exactly when the right time to touch her is, it wil

    backfire.

  27. #117
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    She must initiate the touch. Then

    yes, there is a time to do it back - and its to less of a degree and with less frequency than she does it. Some

    girls have actually pointed out that I DON'T EVER TOUCH THEM.

    When they do that, they have told me its the

    right time. There's other more subtle clues - but actually saying it to me - or taking my hand and putting it

    somewhere - there's no misinterpreting that - and she's made the choice.

  28. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by phersurf
    I disagree with

    the no touching unless she touches you first advice.
    You missed my point. I was pointing out, for all the

    guys who ask how to determine if a girl is interested, that this is an easy test of interest. I got the impression

    from Chemist that he was expanding on that a little. His advice is good.

    The comment was not about how to seduce

    a girl, but how to tell if what you are doing is having the result you want. Waiting for her to touch you first

    gives her the chance to show her interest.

    It never hurts to let the girl do some chasing. Her attitude is

    usually something along the lines of, it is always good to let the guy chase.

  29. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by phersurf
    When you touch

    a woman it releases a hormone called oxytocin (same with men but a much lower amount) that actually cause her to

    want to be touched more.
    Your knowledge of phsyiology (bypassing the limbic brain, touching a woman releases

    oxytocin, women secrete less than men) leaves something to be desired.

    I have read DeAngelo's limbic brain

    nonsense, and that is all it is. The limbic system is crucial to governing emotional states. If you could

    successfully bypass the limbic system, you would bypass all of a girl's emotional responses. That means, she would

    not care a thing about what you do and would not feel any attraction toward you.

    Oxytocin, which IS secreted by

    both men and women, is mostly stimulated in women by touch applied to the teats/nipples, as this hormone is critical

    for the production of milk. Men don't make milk. Oxytocin seems to help transport sperm in both the male and female

    body during reproduction (sex -- specifically during orgasm).

    Large amounts of oxytocin are released when a

    woman gives birth, too. Oxytocin induces, or helps to induce, labor.

    A study published in the July, 1999 issue

    of Psychiatry magazine found that women in committed relationships released more oxytocin than women who were

    not in committed relationships. So, oxytocin's role in forming long-term relationships is more significant than its

    role in forming short-term relationships.

    A woman is most likely to release oxytocin after genital stimulation,

    during birth, or while nursing. She is more likely to do so during a committed, happy, stable relationship than when

    first meeting a man.

    In short, you get the benefits of oxytocin after you start mating, not before.

    Stress

    reduces oxytocin production. So, in that respect, getting a girl to relax helps, but if she is feeling anxious (and

    pheromones can do that to her), her stress goes up, not down.

  30. #120
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    ^ david deangelo reference his

    limbic brain stuff to books that are out there. he's not actually creating his own ideas but just usings other

    people's ideas. i could care less if the research is right or wrong but using the stimulate her limbic brain stuff

    does work.

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