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  1. #1
    Bodhi Satva CptKipling's Avatar
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    Default Application Methods and Volumes

    visit-red-300x50PNG
    There has been recent discussion about various application methods and their respective volumes, so I

    thought I would start a thread to have it all in one place.





    Sprays
    [font=Verdana][/font

    ]

    We know (thanks to scientist) that

    A4.2 gives .13 ml per spray. It would be better if we could have the figures for all of the spray products (Chikara,

    Perception, TE, etc.), because the volume varies widely.




    Spraying is more convenient for fragranced products which have a concentration

    (mg/ml) suited to applying large volumes (i.e not NPA), and is normally associated with alcohol products. If you are

    not confident about the suitability of the concentration or the fragrance, don't

    spray.





    Drops



    A drop can either be from a pipette or

    the dropper insert in a product. Normally estimated to be around .05 ml, drops actually vary greatly in volume

    between products (or more specifically carrier agents) and droppers/pipettes. Again, it would be useful to know the

    drop volumes for each product that the method applies to (this is quite easy to do, and you don't waste any

    product).





    Roll-on

    inches




    Brought into popularity by SOE, this one is harder

    to measure. However, a previous forum member (Shoe) measured it quite accurately to be about 28 inches per ml, or

    .36 ml. Most mixes heavy on di-propelene glycol (SOE, AE, PPA, etc.) can be approximated to be at that volume, but

    alcohol or water based mixes will vary.





    Dabs
    [color=black][

    /color]

    This one is fraught with controversy



    There are several problems with quantifying a

    dab, including; variations in method, carrier agent (alcohol, water, etc.), and also bottle size. The "accepted"

    method is to cover the opening with a finger or thumb, invert the bottle to wet the chosen digit, and then applying

    the liquid on the digit (after returning the bottle to a more sensible orientation, obviously ). Bottle size can

    be measured by the size of the opening, so that one isn't really a problem, but volume of fluid yielded from each

    dab will inevitably vary between carrier agent. However, from my rough measurements, the variation caused by these

    factors is quite small, and I would estimate the average dab volume to be about 0.02 ml, give or take a few

    thousandths of a ml.


    To many this is the

    application method of choice, as is allows application of a small amount of product with

    precision.






    To date, there quite a few products for which the default application method*

    has been measured.


    In

    summary:


    SOE

    - inch, 0.036 ml




    A4.2 - spray, 0.13

    ml


    .........

    If anyone

    has the volumes for any other products default method at hand, could they please post them here. Also, if you

    disagree with anything said above, feel free to correct me!






    *with TE I think knowing both the spray and dab volume is relevant to most

    people.
    CptKipling

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  2. #2
    Bodhi Satva CptKipling's Avatar
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    Default

    The Beta 2 bottle gave

    520 sprays, which was 0.0288 ml / spray, or 0.0192 mg total pheros / spray.

    The two final release bottles gave

    approx. 225 sprays each; 0.0667 ml / spray, or 0.0444 mg total pheros / spray.
    Chikara (beta) -

    0.0288 ml (spray)

    Chikara (final) - 0.0667 ml (spray)
    CptKipling

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  3. #3
    Bodhi Satva CptKipling's Avatar
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    Anyone have the AE drop

    volume?
    CptKipling

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  4. #4
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    Default

    And my question please (third

    thread):
    how many ml per npa "dab"?

  5. #5
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ismellgood
    And my question

    please (third thread):
    how many ml per npa "dab"?
    I will get my NPA at the weekend and test it!

  6. #6
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    Indigo,
    I look forward to

    reading of your test results (quantitative as well as experiential).

  7. #7
    Phero Pharaoh BassMan's Avatar
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by CptKipling

    Sprays

    [co

    lor=black][/color]
    We know (thanks to scientist) that A4.2 gives .13 ml per spray.

    I have measured several A4.2 bottles, and found they give much larger sprays than Scientist got. One of the

    problems with measuring sprayers is that they are not designed for continuous spraying. Continuous spraying results

    in vacuum buildup in the bottle, and a false (low) reading.

    Relieving the vacuum (by opening the bottle every 10

    sprays or so) resulted in a reading of 92 sprays for 20.0 ml of Isoprop (which is what A4.2 is made up in), or 0.217

    ml / spray. This was fairly repeatable (I have forgotton the variance) across several bottles (sorry, it's been a

    while).
    somewhere between amused and obsessed...

  8. #8
    Phero Pharaoh BassMan's Avatar
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by CptKipling
    Anyone have the

    AE drop

    volume?
    http://www.l

    ove-scent.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1827&highlight=alter+drop+volume


    Works out to 60 drops / ml or 0.017

    ml / drop.

    IIRC, somebody else measured in at about 50 drop / ml. With drops that small (and especially with the

    relatively high viscosity di-glycol base), the angle of the dropper is probably to blame for the disparity.



    -Bass
    somewhere between amused and obsessed...

  9. #9
    Bodhi Satva CptKipling's Avatar
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    Default

    Thanks BassMan,

    The sprayer

    vacuum issue really sucks (no pun intended). To clear something up, am I correct in understanding that you are

    saying no vacuum occurs with regular use? If this is the case, great, 0.217 ml per spray can confidantly be used.



    On a related issue, would there be much difference between an alcohol and a water spray from the same atomiser? My

    guess would be that the difference would be so small that it is unimportant.


    Anyone have TE's sprayer

    volume?
    CptKipling

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    any stats on the qty

    for the sprayer bruce sells?


    [got my stuff!! ) ]

  11. #11
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    if not how do i

    calculate the ml? dropper :?

  12. #12
    Phero Pharaoh BassMan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CptKipling
    Thanks

    BassMan,

    The sprayer vacuum issue really sucks (no pun intended). To clear something up, am I correct in

    understanding that you are saying no vacuum occurs with regular use? If this is the case, great, 0.217 ml per spray

    can confidantly be used.

    On a related issue, would there be much difference between an alcohol and a water spray

    from the same atomiser? My guess would be that the difference would be so small that it is unimportant.




    Anyone have TE's sprayer volume?
    I would imagine that with normal use, the vacuum dissipates between

    sprays. The problem with single sprays is that the first spray is usually light because part of what's in the

    sprayer has evaporated.

    My own solution to all this is to work with rather dilute solutions. I try to adjust

    things so that I use between four and six sprays per application. That way, the light first spray doesn't matter as

    much. I premix my cover scent - usually diluted, with the mone mix. The diluted mix lets me cover a lot of area.



    There seems to be a lower limit to where this will work. I didn't understand what was going on until the

    Perception theories hit the forum. Apparently, I've found a balance between transdermal absorption, conversion, and

    overall concentration. My skin seems to be very phero-friendly - the more the stuff reacts with me, the better the

    effects. In any event, that's what works for me.

    I have a steno pad with three years worth of notes. I will go

    through it in the next couple of days and post all the various measurements I've done for various sprayers and

    bottles and droppers.

    -Bass
    Last edited by BassMan; 09-15-2004 at 09:49 AM.
    somewhere between amused and obsessed...

  13. #13
    Bodhi Satva CptKipling's Avatar
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    Default

    Thanks again BM that would be

    usefull.


    Eric,

    I think I remember someone posting that, but I could be mistaken. If you want to do it

    yourself you would be better off measuring by spraying a certain amount of sprays into something and measuring the

    volume, or measuring a volume out and counting how many sprays it takes to deplete it.
    CptKipling

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  14. #14
    Bodhi Satva CptKipling's Avatar
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    Aha! Good ol' Oscar!



    Whitehall,

    I'm pretty sure those atomizers are the same as the ones included in the P10 kits. Stone

    claims that theirs deliver 65 sprays per 10 ml. So it's @.154ml/spray.

    I've long questioned the 20 drops per

    ml. estimate. When using eyedroppers, I've gotten @300 drops into a 5ml bottle! But the drops from the NPA built-in

    dropper are huge! If you're after precise ratios, do yourself a favor and use twin eyedroppers, or a calibrated

    syringe for measuring. The dropper insert of the NPA pries off very easily and goes back in nicely too.

    I too

    would work with balancing the cologne/NPA ratio to your tastes without adding any dilutants, especially at first.

    See how the NPA changes the fragrance before introducing another variable. Let it "steep" a day or two before

    committing any quantities to a mix. And start out on the light side on the phero dose. I've had good results with a

    5 to 1, Issey/NPA mix, but it all hinges on the intensity of your cologne.

    And if you MUST cut it, Walter's

    right, get some Everclear. It's twice the alcohol content of vodka, costs about the same, and leaves virtually NO

    residual scent.
    Happy Mixing! [img]images/icons/wink.gif[/img]

    Oscar [img]images/icons/laugh.gif[/img]

    So that's 0.154 ml per spray for the LS atomisers. But that may not be accurate in light of BM's

    vacuum effect.
    CptKipling

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  15. #15
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    i lost my sprayer

    ..geting another one {grrrr...} i wasnt able to test it troughly but i got easly 56 sprays from 3/5 of the btle

    [removable flask of 10ml] that means +- 0,1ml /spray
    ? right ? [tested with water]

  16. #16
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    well found my sprayer

    did repeated(5 times) test on it with water.it is rather stable for the dosage 70 Full sprays for the flask filled

    to the shorter part right before the screwable part.Dont know the quantity but must be aroud the 10ml limit witch

    gives us 0,142ml or so per spray

  17. #17
    Sadhu bjf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CptKipling




    Roll-on

    inches




    Brought into popularity by SOE, this one is harder

    to measure. However, a previous forum member (Shoe) measured it quite accurately to be about 28 inches per ml, or

    .36 ml. Most mixes heavy on di-propelene glycol (SOE, AE, PPA, etc.) can be approximated to be at that volume, but

    alcohol or water based mixes will vary.
    So would it be more or less inches for perfumer's

    alcohol?

  18. #18
    Bodhi Satva CptKipling's Avatar
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    More inches per unit volume.



    It's quite complicated, and depends on suface tension, viscosity, and "wetness" (as BassMan put it in a thread a

    while ago) etc.

    I think that base in SOE (di-propelene glycol?) give the greatest volume per inch, then

    alcohol, then water.
    Last edited by CptKipling; 09-23-2004 at 11:42 AM. Reason: read the q wrong
    CptKipling

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  19. #19
    Bodhi Satva CptKipling's Avatar
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    bump

    Any know the *Gold*

    Perception spray volume? I'm looking for it now but if someone knows it that would be helpfull.
    CptKipling

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  20. #20
    Sadhu bjf's Avatar
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    Bobby or Matt said it, I believe.

  21. #21
    Bodhi Satva CptKipling's Avatar
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    I found a post by BassMan

    saying about 8 sprays per ml.

    I will change this volume to the Platinum version's volume (intended to be 0.1 ml

    per spray iirc) when it is released.

    Anybody have any more volumes to post?
    CptKipling

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  22. #22
    Bodhi Satva CptKipling's Avatar
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    To recap, I currently don't

    have the *spray* volumes for:

    Pheromax
    The Edge
    Attraction

    ...and the various dibs dabs and drops for most

    of the other products. Maybe the best way to do that is to find the volume of a dab of TE, as that will will give an

    approximante volume for the rest of the alcohol products aswell.
    CptKipling

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  23. #23
    Phero Enthusiast einstein's Avatar
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    Pheromaxx keychain is .067

    ml/spray. I got 30 sprays from filling it with cheap vodka.

  24. #24
    Bodhi Satva CptKipling's Avatar
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    Thanks

    Keep

    'em comin'!
    CptKipling

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  25. #25
    Bodhi Satva CptKipling's Avatar
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    bump bump bump
    CptKipling

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  26. #26
    Phero Pharaoh BassMan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CptKipling
    Anybody have

    any more volumes to post?
    Don't even ask why...

    I got 168 dabs out of a PF bottle containing 1.5 ml

    of Denat Alcohol last night. That's 112 dabs per ml or roughly 0.0089 ml/dab.

    -Bass
    somewhere between amused and obsessed...

  27. #27
    Full Member Elvis's Avatar
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    Just reading this thread again

    tells me we need a level playing surface. There is a lot of excellent work from a lot of people but, having said

    that, the constant comparisons/translations/transpositions are tiresome.

    Think about all the variables, it's

    madness. I feel it's mind numbing and needs simplified.

    Just my 2 cents.
    "Some days will stay a thousand years, some pass like the flash of a spark...who knows where all our days go?"

  28. #28
    Bodhi Satva CptKipling's Avatar
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    wh...

    Thanks BassMan



    Did you ever look in your steno pad?
    CptKipling

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  29. #29
    Journeyman Red Stripe's Avatar
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    A while back someone figured

    out the max effective dosage window for most people, but I can't find the thread. Anyone remember? Thanks.

  30. #30
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    Wow this is a pretty old

    thread. I'm glad to know that a bottle of chikara can last about 225 sprays. And I'm somewhat surprised that a

    drop of AE is small enough to last 60 drops per ml! At least I'll know that this stuff will last more than a month

    even if I apply each and every day.

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