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  1. #1
    Moderator belgareth's Avatar
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    Default Forum rules and courtesy

    visit-red-300x50PNG
    A lot of you

    will remember that not too long ago you couldn't write a serious thread without it being hijacked or otherwise made

    unusable by all the playing around, jokes quips and such. A lot of very good people got sick of it, quit posting and

    left the forum. We tried with polite requests through PMs and deletions to get it back in line with little effect.

    It resulted in us being forced to come down pretty hard on some people and we ended up losing still more members but

    the forum has improved a lot since then. We have a lot of great new members posting good stuff.

    In the past

    couple weeks we've seen a lot of nonsense posts in the discussion forums. Jokes and playing around don't belong

    there, it takes away from the content provided by serious posters and is not fair with the amount of effort that is

    put into many of these posts.

    A long time back, Bruce created the Open Discussion and Humor forums so we would

    have places to play and debate unrelated topics. I think everybody would get the most benefit out of this site if we

    kept serious discussion and play seperated. Please help us out by paying attention to where you post humor, jokes

    and off topic discussions.

    One other thing I should mention. WE DO DELETE THREADS AND POSTS WITHOUT WARNING. We

    assume everybody knows and understands the few rules we have here and can figure it out if an off topic post gets

    deleted. If you then post "Hey, Who deleted my thread" it will get deleted too. If you'd really like an answer, PM

    any one of us mods and we will be happy to answer you.

    Thanks, Belgareth
    Last edited by belgareth; 09-08-2004 at 11:26 AM.
    To compel a man to subsidize with his taxes the propagation of ideas which he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical.

    Thomas Jefferson

  2. #2
    Kodachrome Forever! Gegogi's Avatar
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    Sheesh, there's a big difference

    between being rude and good natured humor. I think there's room for serious discussion and humor as long as the

    humor isn't intended to be mean or a personal attack. In fact, many of the serious posts are really funny--goofy

    'n silly--although the poster was dead serious. In such cases it's difficult to write anything but a humorous

    reply because the original post was so darn silly. Moreover, just because the reply was humorous doesn't invalidate

    the helpfulness of the answer nor its contribution to the discussion. It's far better to go through life with a

    smile and a dash of wit and humor than suffer as a boring fuddy duddy.
    "I'm just a dirty hornytoad" -Gegogi

  3. #3
    Moderator belgareth's Avatar
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    Humor is fine, I like to laugh

    and have fun too. A joke as part of a reply is fine. But when a question is asked and all they get is nonsense or

    when a post is drug so far off track by humor and smart comments as to be worthless it's unfair to the poster and

    discouraging as well. All we are asking is that you show the respect and courtesy due those that are trying to post

    serious questions or comments. For anything else, take it to open discussion or humor. I don't think that is an

    unreasonable expectation.
    To compel a man to subsidize with his taxes the propagation of ideas which he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical.

    Thomas Jefferson

  4. #4
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    If you want humor... go post

    it in the Humor section. Its that simple. Thats what its there for.
    top_dawwgs

  5. #5
    Doctor of Scentology DrSmellThis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by belgareth
    But when a

    question is asked and all they get is nonsense or when a post is drug so far off track by humor and smart comments

    as to be worthless it's unfair to the poster and discouraging as well. All we are asking is that you show the

    respect and courtesy due those that are trying to post serious questions or comments.
    I think this is key.

    IMHO, a good bit of humor and fun can be fit into this structure, however. You just have to make sure your

    constructive, positive and helpful spirit and intentions are communicated
    . The onus is on the poster to do that

    somehow (again, IMHO). Usually a lack of respect or thoughtfulness for the original poster is easy to spot. But if

    the elephant of humor comes up and just sits in your lap, it's hard to just ignore it. Yet the more extreme your

    excursion into humor, the more important it is to make it OK, given the structure we have to fit into. I hope that

    makes sense.
    DrSmellThis (creator of P H E R O S)

  6. #6
    Man of La Pancha
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    Not sure if the moderators

    would agree with this, but...

    I recommend checking out some of my posts (some being the key word) if you want to

    see the balance of humor and serious responses to the original posts. I'm not perfect by any means, but I notice

    when I want to make a joke that's in the "Pheromone Forum", I always make sure I have something serious to post to

    bring it back or keep it on topic.

    I notice I frequently use the Joke-Serious, Serious-Joke, or

    Joke-Serious-Joke approach. I will present an example of the Joke-Serious-Joke approach below:

    Rules and

    Courtesy...Forum? No, I'm against 'em!


    Seriously, though, it's important to bring it back to

    the topic at hand. Also, when making a joke, check to see if somehow you are insulting someone who may not get your

    sense of humor. For instance, if you said, "Pancho...is that your name because you wear something to protect

    yourself from all of the ladies when they spit on you after you bring those weak pick-up lines you call rhymes?" I

    could see how I could possibly take offense to that. However, if you said, "Pancho...I hope you have one of those

    when that storm hits nearby! It's going to get wet!!!" I don't see how I should feel offended by such things.

    When you refrain from offending people and throw in your joke while giving useful pheromone information, things tend

    to go well...


    ...or you could just say
    "Pheromones.

    What do you say when you cross an

    elephant and a rhinoceros...(say it out loud) Elephino!!!


    Oh, yeah...pheromones."
    Just

    kidding...



    See? Not too shabby...but that's just my opinion.

    PR

  7. #7
    Kodachrome Forever! Gegogi's Avatar
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    "If you want humor... go

    post it in the Humor section. Its that simple. Thats what its there for."
    The point isn't wanting

    humor, it's delivery of a useful message. The message may packaged in many different ways and still say the same

    thing: dry 'n matter of fact, insulting, humorous, conversational (wordy), 60s stream of consciousness (we get lots

    of those!), et al. I find a lick of humor while delivering a message makes people happy. And feeling good is one of

    the most important things in life. I certainly practice humor in my everyday speech and I see no reason to fake a

    writing style that isn't me. I ain't no flickin' dictionary nor am I a search engine. You can live without sex

    but a lack of humor will eventually kill you or make those around you wish you were dead! Aren't these dad burn

    little "Smilies: meant to be suggest humor?


    Incidentally, only the "60s stream of

    consciousness" writing style pisses me off (e.g., the 200 word run-on sentence). I hate it when posters are too lazy

    to spell correctly or use clear sentence structure. Not only does it make them appear stupid, it's extremely

    difficult to figure out what they're trying to say.
    "I'm just a dirty hornytoad" -Gegogi

  8. #8
    Administrator Bruce's Avatar
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    I think we are all on the same page

    here. Humor is obviously a wonderful thing. It can be used for "evil purposes" as well as good, and a whole range

    in between though. EG: a sarcastic potshot at some inocent bystander, racist humor etc etc.

    Unfortunately,

    the situation with the forum is not always so simple to judge, as often the only "victim" of the "bad" humor is the

    forum itself and its expressed goals. It hasn't happened in a while thank God, but we have trouble from time to

    time with productive threads being hijacked by folks whose personal agenda was quite a bit different from that of

    the forum and the result was chaos rather than a lively fun productive discussion of pheromones.

    A great

    thread is a work of art. It needs talent from its players even if it is improvised on the spot, and since it is a

    recorded media of sorts, the need for some ocassional editing is there as well. That doesn't mean the mods are

    going to snip out anything that is bad for business at Love Scent. It means they may at any moment snip out

    something that is (clearly) bad for the thread, and a "WTF happend to my friggin' post man?" is sure to end up on

    the cutting room floor.

    Imagine we are making a documentary about pheromones here. If we snip out someone

    saying "Well, I gave pheromones my best shot, and they didn't help me" that is of course is very bad and we don't

    do that, never have. But... If someone posts "You guys are a bunch of suckers... yada yada" and it doesn't get

    resolved quickly, it doesn't really serve the big picture, especially, if it becomes obvious that the person has

    never even tried pheromones. Actually, discussions like that can sometimes stimulate productive discussion too.

    Other times we are dealing with a professional "troll", chaos is the goal and it is a waste of time trying to let

    the group deal with him.

    Anyway, I ramble, but certainly humor is not a problem on the forum. It is an

    important part of my vision (if you will) of the forum. It can however be used as a weapon of distruction sometimes

    and leads to editing.

    Regards,
    Bruce
    To enjoy good health, to bring true happiness to one's family, to bring peace to all, one must first discipline and control one's own mind. If a man can control his mind he can find the way to Enlightenment, and all wisdom and virtue will naturally come to him.

    - Buddha


    Yoga in Eugene
    Fair Trade crafts from Peru

  9. #9
    Journeyman
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    i feel ya Bruce. when i first

    got on this forum, i started just posting short little nothings like "nice post" and pointless statements like that.

    im used to being on forums where thread hijackers are just no big thing. but being this is a forum for serious

    discussion, its totally understandable that you guys are so quick to take down pointless/thoughtless/hijacking/off

    topic posts. i will do my best to help keep things on topic.

  10. #10
    Doctor of Scentology DrSmellThis's Avatar
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    Bruce has created a forum in

    which many different kinds of discourse are permitted, and can survive intact. That's a somewhat unusual

    achievement on the web, is it not? Keeping things in their context is the key to that.
    DrSmellThis (creator of P H E R O S)

  11. #11
    Man of La Pancha
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    Apparently, this is off topic

    of the thread, but in response to the numerous recent discussions on hoarding points, irrelevant posting, comments

    put in the wrong forums, and other recent activities:

    General newbie guidelines for buying products/using forum

    at Love-Scent:

    1. Research pheromone forum.
    2. Ask additional questions if you cannot find certain information

    or post your story if you feel it would benefit your decision to purchase a product.
    3. Buy the newbie starter kit

    for general experimentation or whatever product you believe would work best for your situation. Use 20% off newbie

    coupon, capitalize on product discounts, and get freebie gel packs.
    4. Research pheromone forum for answers to

    simple questions such as application amounts, locations, and other usage questions.
    5. Test product...experiment.

    Trial and error and all that good stuff.
    6. Post your results.
    7. Engage in thoughtful discussion of pheromones

    and the art of attraction. Accumulate wealth in the process, both forum-wise (5,000 points) and reality-wise (~$100

    - max limit for 50% coupon).
    8. Decide what your next purchase should be during these interactions.
    9. Use 50%

    coupon and make next purchase.
    10. Repeat as necessary.
    11. To expedite this process, play games in the arcade,

    post very thoughtful ideas in the Pheromone Discussion forum to ensure a lot of responses, post irrelevant nonsense

    in the Open Discussion forum, or become the forum clown by posting jokes in the Humor section.

    General warning

    of what you should not do in the Love-Scent forum regarding posting and points:

    1. Post obvious questions in

    brand new threads that could be answered by a simple search or common sense. Please consult the newbie FAQ first. If

    a search leads to nothing, feel free to post your question. Complicated answers are hard to find and may require

    additional information.
    2. Post irrelevant information in a new thread in the Pheromone Forum to accumulate points

    or attract additional attention to your question. This will bring swift justice by moderators, and you will receive

    the forum-equivalent of a severe beatdown...or a polite warning...whichever comes first.
    3. Worry in any way about

    points, reputation, number of posts, title, or any other forum bell or whistle. If you don't like your rep, turn it

    off. If you want to accumulate the most points:
    a. go to the arcade and get a high score
    b. close your browser and

    turn on the relevant video game of your choice...accumulate as many points as you want
    These features are about fun

    and character, not competition.


    Anyone here solely for points, rep, or irrelevant discussions is in

    the wrong forum...or at least forgot the point of it somewhere along the way...

    PR

  12. #12
    PheroWizard oscar's Avatar
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    Exclamation Please Take Note!

    For the attention

    of all, but especially for those whom the shoe fits :

    There are several users who appear to be jacking up their

    post counts to the overall detriment of the forums. The methods are many and varied, but the overall effect is that

    it takes the serious user more time to see those posts which are truly informative and worthwhile, and has thus

    driven many notable contributors to visit the board far less frequently, and some to have abandoned the forum

    altogether.

    One of the most obvious of these methods comes in the form of consecutive posts.
    If you suddenly

    remember a few minutes after submitting a post that there's something you care to add, please use the edit button

    and insert your addendum in the post you just submitted. When I see a post that was submitted two or three minutes

    after a user had just submitted another post, I can't help thinking that in most cases this is a cheesy attempt at

    points garnering.

    Please give other users the respect they deserve by gathering your thoughts and proofreading

    your posts BEFORE hitting the "Submit" button. Additionally, think whether what you have to say is relevent and

    contributory before you even hit the "Reply" button. If you really don't have anything to contribute, please don't

    bother posting.

    Another suggestion I would make for all users, but especially new ones, is to read all of this

    thread and the newbie thread to get an idea about how they are expected to conduct themelves. They should pay

    particular attention to avoiding off-topic posting and pointless one-liners. We're ALL 'looking forward to hearing

    more of so-and-so's results", and we're all "happy to post more results as they happen", so that should be

    understood.

    In the past most post whores have been warned by the moderators privately on an individual basis.

    The sheer number of new users who haven't read the stickies and are consequently on wild posting binges now makes

    this impractical. I want to spend my time on the forum reading informative posts submitted by users who took the

    time to make sure that what they were saying would be worth reading. I don't want to devote half of my time here to

    sending PM's to users who think that they're in a chat room when they are in fact posting on a topic-specific

    board. There are boards here for fun and games, and like the serious boards, they are clearly defined.



    Deletions, negative reputation hits, and curtailment of posting privileges are among the measures that can be

    taken to get this problem under control. It would be unfair to take the more drastic measures without first giving

    warning, so that's why I'm posting this.
    This post IS that warning!


    There are no points that I've made

    here which I would consider to be open for debate. Nor is it necessary for anyone to post that they've understood

    what I've put forth. Your compliance will be sufficient response. If you have questions you can send me a PM.



    Thank You.

    Oscar
    Moderator
    Love-Scent Forums
    Last edited by oscar; 12-28-2004 at 02:50 AM.

  13. #13
    Moderator belgareth's Avatar
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    Default

    I'd like to add a couple other

    things. Re-registering under another name and replying to your own posts is not allowed. There are a couple people

    doing things like that. It would be a good idea to lose the extra identities now.

    An unusually large number of

    posts have contained links to other pheromone sites. Some of those links were posted by people that have been here a

    long time and know better. Please save Oscar and me the trouble of deleting them by not putting them up. It isn't

    fair to Bruce, who kindly provides this forum, to keep that up.
    To compel a man to subsidize with his taxes the propagation of ideas which he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical.

    Thomas Jefferson

  14. #14
    Moderator belgareth's Avatar
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    Default

    It looks like it's time to add

    to this thread. Oscar, CptKipling and I are forced to delete too many links lately so I'll add another couple

    rules:
    1. Please don't post links to competitive sites. They be deleted and if it happens too often we will take

    action against the person doing it.
    2. Don't try to use this forum to advertise your own site or some affiliate

    site. It will be deleted the first time. The second time we will ban you.

    Thanks,

    Bel
    To compel a man to subsidize with his taxes the propagation of ideas which he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical.

    Thomas Jefferson

  15. #15
    Moderator belgareth's Avatar
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    Default Topics of discussion and Censorship

    I guess its time for another proclamation. You've probably all been eagerly awaiting the next one in

    anticipation, right at the edges of your seats and all that.

    Today's topic is topics of discussion. There's

    been a lot of nonsense coming about the Pherlure thread. As a forum that promotes open discussion on the topic of

    pheromones and the science of attraction, we would be wrong to casually ban a particular topic, especially when it

    may have something to do with potential pheromones. It doesn't have to be a proven product, it doesn't have to

    meet anybody's approval and it doesn't have to have honest marketing to qualify for discussion. All it has to do

    is be a product purported to chemically create attraction. In reality, discussion of oddball products is a big

    benefit to everybody on the forum. If it turns out to be a good product we alll have a new toy to play with. If it

    turns out to be a bunch of trash, a lot of people know about it.

    Things we will censor are personal attacks on

    others, insults, slander, vulgarity, demeaning or bigoted statements and that type of thing. We also have and will

    continue to ban people for the above without warning or hesitation.

    Another reminder. There has been, off and

    on, discussion about Double Your Dating, David DeAngelo and NLP in the PHEROMONE discussion forum. None of those

    topics are about pheromones. Please take them to Open Discussion. I'm not sure how the other moderators feel about

    it but I'll simply delete them if they aren't in open discussion.
    To compel a man to subsidize with his taxes the propagation of ideas which he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical.

    Thomas Jefferson

  16. #16
    PheroWizard oscar's Avatar
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    Default Redress of Grievances

    There's a sign

    that I often see in restaurants and shops that goes something like this:

    If you're satisfied with the

    service here, please tell your friends!....If you're NOT, PLEASE TELL US!!

    It's rather like that here on

    this forum too.
    Anytime you're dissatisfied, insulted, or otherwise unhappy with a forum policy or the

    treatment you receive here, whether from a board officer or ANY user, please don't hesitate to contact Bruce or any

    one (or ALL) of the moderators to voice your concern.

    There are several options for doing this:

    1.

    Each post has a "Report Bad Post" icon at the bottom left which automatically notifies Bruce and every moderator.

    The box that appears when clicking this icon gives the option for you to enter your comments.

    2. Bruce and

    the moderators are all available by email and/or Private Message to express your feelings.

    3. Between the

    "Store and Forum Problems", "Open Discussion", and "Suggestions" boards there are even more options for you to

    address your grievance should you choose to do so publicly.

    While the moderators of this board may read other

    pheromone forums, it's extremely unlikely that any complaints about this forum which are posted elsewhere will be

    rectified on the basis of our seeing them there.

    Conversely, if you have a complaint about another forum and

    choose to air it here, not only will it be unlikely that it will have any positive effect, but it WILL be deleted as

    soon as it comes to our attention.

    We're not interested in critiquing other forums, nor do I think they

    should be interested in critiquing ours.

    It is with criticism and user input that forums manage to evolve and

    improve. Please give us the benefit of the doubt and address your criticisms of this forum here, at least at first.

    If we can't work things out to your satisfaction then you're welcome to go complain about it elsewhere. To go and

    complain elsewhere without having addressed your dissatisfaction here would indicate to me either a hidden agenda,

    or merely just a taste for "internet drama".

    We're here to discuss pheromones. Anyone willing to read,

    learn, and share their experiences is welcome. Your views and attitudes won't always coincide with those of other

    posters here. They don't always coincide with mine. That's the way it is. With time we learn that to live in this

    world it is necessary to accept that others will have beliefs, attitudes, ethics, etc., that we will find fault in.

    It's all a part of growing up, and it really doesn't end until you've drawn your last breath. Don't fritter away

    any of the priceless time that you have on this earth trying to change or criticise others. Make yourself the best

    person that you can be and teach by your example.


    Thank You,

    Oscar


    Moderator
    Love-Scent.com Forums

  17. #17
    PheroWizard oscar's Avatar
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by oscar View Post
    There's a sign

    that I often see in restaurants and shops that goes something like this:

    If you're satisfied with the

    service here, please tell your friends!....If you're NOT, PLEASE TELL US!!

    It's rather like that here on

    this forum too.
    Anytime you're dissatisfied, insulted, or otherwise unhappy with a forum policy or the

    treatment you receive here, whether from a board officer or ANY user, please don't hesitate to contact Bruce or any

    one (or ALL) of the moderators to voice your concern.

    There are several options for doing this:

    1.

    Each post has a "Report Bad Post" icon at the bottom left which automatically notifies Bruce and every moderator.

    The box that appears when clicking this icon gives the option for you to enter your comments.

    2. Bruce and

    the moderators are all available by email and/or Private Message to express your feelings.

    3. Between the

    "Store and Forum Problems", "Open Discussion", and "Suggestions" boards there are even more options for you to

    address your grievance should you choose to do so publicly.

    While the moderators of this board may read

    other pheromone forums, it's extremely unlikely that any complaints about this forum which are posted elsewhere

    will be rectified on the basis of our seeing them there.

    Conversely, if you have a complaint about another

    forum and choose to air it here, not only will it be unlikely that it will have any positive effect, but it WILL be

    deleted as soon as it comes to our attention.

    We're not interested in critiquing other forums, nor do I

    think they should be interested in critiquing ours.


    It is with criticism and user input that forums

    manage to evolve and improve. Please give us the benefit of the doubt and address your criticisms of this forum

    here, at least at first. If we can't work things out to your satisfaction then you're welcome to go complain about

    it elsewhere. To go and complain elsewhere without having addressed your dissatisfaction here would indicate to me

    either a hidden agenda, or merely just a taste for "internet drama".

    We're here to discuss pheromones.

    Anyone willing to read, learn, and share their experiences is welcome. Your views and attitudes won't always

    coincide with those of other posters here. They don't always coincide with mine. That's the way it is. With time

    we learn that to live in this world it is necessary to accept that others will have beliefs, attitudes, ethics,

    etc., that we will find fault in. It's all a part of growing up, and it really doesn't end until you've drawn

    your last breath. Don't fritter away any of the priceless time that you have on this earth trying to change or

    criticise others. Make yourself the best person that you can be and teach by your example.


    Thank

    You,

    Oscar
    Moderator
    Love-Scent.com Forums
    (Emphasis added to relevent portion of

    post above.)

    I just had to remove a complaint about another forum from the Open Discussion board.

    I

    won't be doing that again without banning someone.

    Please carefully read and comply with the rules in the

    sticky threads.

    Oscar
    Moderator
    Love-Scent Forums

  18. #18
    PheroWizard oscar's Avatar
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by oscar View Post
    For the

    attention of all, but especially for those whom the shoe fits :

    There are several users who appear to be

    jacking up their post counts to the overall detriment of the forums. The methods are many and varied, but the

    overall effect is that it takes the serious user more time to see those posts which are truly informative and

    worthwhile, and has thus driven many notable contributors to visit the board far less frequently, and some to have

    abandoned the forum altogether.

    One of the most obvious of these methods comes in the form of

    consecutive posts.
    If you suddenly remember a few minutes after submitting a post that there's something you

    care to add, please use the edit button and insert your addendum in the post you just submitted. When I see a post

    that was submitted two or three minutes after a user had just submitted another post, I can't help thinking that in

    most cases this is a cheesy attempt at points garnering.


    Please give other users the respect they

    deserve by gathering your thoughts and proofreading your posts BEFORE hitting the "Submit" button. Additionally,

    think whether what you have to say is relevent and contributory before you even hit the "Reply" button. If you

    really don't have anything to contribute, please don't bother posting.

    Another suggestion I would make for

    all users, but especially new ones, is to read all of this thread and the newbie thread to get an idea about how

    they are expected to conduct themelves. They should pay particular attention to avoiding off-topic posting and

    pointless one-liners. We're ALL 'looking forward to hearing more of so-and-so's results", and we're all "happy

    to post more results as they happen", so that should be understood.


    In the past most post whores have

    been warned by the moderators privately on an individual basis. The sheer number of new users who haven't read the

    stickies and are consequently on wild posting binges now makes this impractical. I want to spend my time on the

    forum reading informative posts submitted by users who took the time to make sure that what they were saying would

    be worth reading. I don't want to devote half of my time here to sending PM's to users who think that they're

    in a chat room when they are in fact posting on a topic-specific board.
    There are boards here for fun and games,

    and like the serious boards, they are clearly defined.

    Deletions, negative reputation hits, and curtailment

    of posting privileges are among the measures that can be taken to get this problem under control. It would be unfair

    to take the more drastic measures without first giving warning, so that's why I'm posting this.
    This post IS

    that warning!


    There are no points that I've made here which I would consider to be open for debate.

    Nor is it necessary for anyone to post that they've understood what I've put forth. Your compliance will be

    sufficient response. If you have questions you can send me a PM.

    Thank You.

    Oscar


    Moderator
    Love-Scent Forums
    Anyone who has the time to post on the boards SHOULD have taken

    the time to familiarize themselves with the guidelines within these sticky threads.


    Since Private

    Messages are no longer enabled, it may be necessary for the moderators to occassionally warn users by posting on the

    public boards. Hopefully this will not happen too often.


    Oscar

  19. #19
    Moderator belgareth's Avatar
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    It's been a while since I've

    felt the need to add to this thread. A recent issue has popped up several times in the last couple days though that

    really needs to be clarified.

    Please do not post links that go to websites that are your affiliate site or have

    links to it. And please do not post links to sites containing links to competing sites. Lastly, please do not create

    multiple identities here to be used for posting links to other sites.

    We have no problem with the discussion of

    competing products or the mention of competing sites. We do have a problem with LS affiliates using this site to

    promote their sites or using this forum to promote competitors' sites. We also have a problem with vicious attacks

    on or untrue statements about competitors or their employees. If you want to do any of that, please do it elsewhere.

    We don't play that way.

    Thanks

    Belgareth
    Last edited by belgareth; 07-16-2008 at 01:19 PM.
    To compel a man to subsidize with his taxes the propagation of ideas which he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical.

    Thomas Jefferson

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