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  1. #91
    Moderator belgareth's Avatar
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    Federal taxes in part filter

    down to the state level in a complicated dance. State taxes are used for funding what federal can't or doesn't.

    So, the taxes should all be viewed as part of the whole. One of the most common dodges used is the idea that this

    little 1/4 percent will not hurt anybody financially. And that's true, as far as it goes. What it does not address

    is the other hundred or so painless little taxes we pay at the same time. It all adds up to a lot oif our income. We

    have to view the burden as a whole to really see how much our government is hurting us with the ever increasing tax

    burden.
    To compel a man to subsidize with his taxes the propagation of ideas which he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical.

    Thomas Jefferson

  2. #92
    Man of La Pancha
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    You are completely right on

    everything you said. However, I was only trying to say that it's dumb to complain that tax breaks benefit the rich

    because the way our tax system is set up naturally leads to rich people benefitting from any tax break

    because they are the ones that pay most of the taxes. It's an inappropriate argument to make to get a politician

    out of office...that's all I was trying to say.

    When I hear, "Bush supports tax breaks for the rich," the

    red-flag goes up. Anyone who took a tax accounting class knows that this is statement is redundant (meaning that

    tax breaks favor the people who pay the most taxes...aka the rich via the 80/20 rule). My tax law professor spent

    20 minutes showing in graphic detail how tax breaks will always benefit the rich more than the poor because they pay

    more money in taxes.

  3. #93
    Moderator belgareth's Avatar
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    I am in complete agreement with

    you and your professor. Anybody who wants to look at some simple math can figure it out for themselves. Do you think

    the politicians want you to figure it out? It isn't about facts and issues, it's about emotion as was pointed out

    early in this thread. Both sides are guilty of spewing hyperbole and the public is guilty of allowing and accpting

    it.
    To compel a man to subsidize with his taxes the propagation of ideas which he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical.

    Thomas Jefferson

  4. #94
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    "They pay for Social

    Security that they may never even file for when they're older because they have plenty of money."

    Pancho,

    laughing here - believe me, they are the first to file for their SS and don't think for a moment that every wealthy

    person isn't collecting their due - I would wager that less than 1% of the wealthy don't file for it out of some

    social conscience they may have.

    Sorry to get off the topic but I couldn't let that go by.

    My own

    pragmatism tells me I should vote for Kerry. My principles tell me to vote for Nader.

    I have to reason

    this out with myself.

    hypothetical situation:

    I am walking down the street and because I'm looking

    at some pretty woman I accidentally bump into another man so I apologize. He sees things differently and punches

    me. I am stunned for a moment but then as I regain my composure and prepare to strike back I see a policeman come

    around the corner. I realize the policeman will only see me hitting him. If I take to heart my principles I may go

    to jail. My pragmatism wins out.

    or

    I'm an American

    soldier. On principle I find it morally wrong to kill but I must kill or be killed. Pragmatism wins again.



    Bush or Kerry will win this election.

    "Revolution is pointless. It's only within the system that

    things could get fixed here. Either Kerry or Bush has to get elected, and will get elected. It is either "fight the

    good fight" through one, or the other."

    I couldn't agree more with DST's thought above. I feel that if you

    don't like Bush then you must vote for Kerry (believe me, I've really wrestled with this one). Then, if you voted

    for Kerry as the "ABB" candidate and Kerry wins, you must then start working at your local level to attempt to make

    Kerry and the Dems pay attention to you. One could start now by telling your local Dem party organization that they

    are getting your vote this time only because of the "ABB" factor and that they better start to move back more to the

    left or whatever direction you want them to move to.

    It does look like Bush will win but I've seen other

    arrogant administrations win only to lose later (usually not at the polls but thru war, revolution, or legal

    action). I'm hoping the latter becomes the case.

  5. #95
    Moderator Mtnjim's Avatar
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    "According to recent polls, roughly

    half the population disagrees with you about Bush."

    Too bad the WORLD can't vote. Last night on the CBS

    Nightly News, there was a report on polls conducted world wide. In Europe only Poland supported Bush, everywhere

    else he lost bigtime! In Asia, only the Phillipines supported Bush.

    On another front. The news reported that

    Arnold S. has already released more convicted murderers in his first couple of months in office than Grey Davis or

    Pete Wilson did their entire times in office!
    Freedom begins when you tell Mrs. Grundy to go fly a kite.
    --Lazarus Long

  6. #96
    Moderator belgareth's Avatar
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    KK,

    Great idea in theory.

    In practice, changing our government the way you describe has failed many times. They are too sure of their power

    base. Now, if you could get a big chunk of the voting population to stop voting along party lines, you cold get

    their attention. But until you can do that, you are wasting your time trying to change the existing structure.
    To compel a man to subsidize with his taxes the propagation of ideas which he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical.

    Thomas Jefferson

  7. #97
    Doctor of Scentology DrSmellThis's Avatar
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    Bel, I'll vote to stop the

    bleeding first and you vote to let us bleed, thinking you're going to fix the true cause of the bleeding. I'm

    convinced the first approach is not only compassionate, it's good medicine. The second, if practiced by many, risks

    losing the patient at worst. At best, it add more injuries on top of the one you want to fix. It delays and adds

    obstacles to true healing.
    DrSmellThis (creator of P H E R O S)

  8. #98
    Doctor of Scentology DrSmellThis's Avatar
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    I don't see many rich people

    choosing to become poor because of the threat of taxes. As a percentage of disposable income, what's left over

    after survival and basic physical needs, the poor pay far more taxes than the rich currently. If you have a

    dollar left at the end of the week, giving that dollar away is an astronomically bigger gift than giving ten if you

    have ten thousand left. A progressive tax structure is one of the few things that makes our country compassionate

    toward the less-advantaged. Most people willingly accept the burden. We could simplify it and get rid of the IRS

    without going to a flat tax. In this age of calculators and computers, the idea that the simple progressive math

    formula per se is what makes it complicated seems silly.
    Last edited by DrSmellThis; 09-20-2004 at 02:56 PM.
    DrSmellThis (creator of P H E R O S)

  9. #99
    Man of La Pancha
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    Well, I'll say one thing of

    the effect of Bush's tax breaks on the economy:

    The tax system creates thousands of accounting jobs...





    As for people staying poor...

    In Germany (a few years ago...I don't know about now), some people choose

    to live on welfare because working and being taxed actually has them earn less than if they did nothing at all!!!

  10. #100
    Doctor of Scentology DrSmellThis's Avatar
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    But what were Germanys taxes,

    and what was the welfare system like? You're probably talking about an entirely different effect, about the

    incentive to be on public assistance.

    There are certainly unfair, overly complicated and stupid

    progressive tax systems (such as ours), but that was not the issue.
    DrSmellThis (creator of P H E R O S)

  11. #101
    Moderator belgareth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pancho1188
    Well, I'll

    say one thing of the effect of Bush's tax breaks on the economy:

    The tax system creates thousands of accounting

    jobs...



    As for people staying poor...

    In Germany (a few years ago...I don't know about now),

    some people choose to live on welfare because working and being taxed actually has them earn less than if they did

    nothing at all!!!
    It creates a lot of jobs for attorneys too.

    People staying on the welfare rolls because

    they do better than working at some jobs happens here too. Adjusting the minimum wage has been tried as one method

    of helping that situation, with mixed results. I can't prove it but my guess is that it's a break even situation.

    Higher pay for some but greater demands made so they have to pay fewer workers.

    Doc,

    Stopping the bleeding

    is a great idea but you still haven't convinced me that Kerry can or is even willing to do that. It's also

    possible that stopping the bleeding is irrelevent as the patient still has terminal cancer. Most of the rest of your

    comments are subjective as nobody can prove whether you are wrong or right. I do think that the ideas you are

    espousing now are a good example of why many people associate the word progressive with higher taxes and more

    government.

    In any event, I've spent enough time on this subject, you aren't going to convince me with your

    arguments and I'm not going to convince you with mine. We see things too differently. All we are doing is going in

    circles over an unresolvable difference of opinion. So, I am going to bow out at this time.
    To compel a man to subsidize with his taxes the propagation of ideas which he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical.

    Thomas Jefferson

  12. #102
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    Hey guys,

    I haven't

    finished catching up on this thread yet but I wanted to lay some quotes on you about "the rich" ... I don't think

    we're all talking about the same thing.

    Quote:
    "The real rich dodge taxes and small business owners pay

    the burden." Does that sound like a radical-liberal denunciation of privilege by candidate John Kerry? Guess

    again. It’s a pronouncement by President Bush.


    Speaking at the Northern Virginia Community

    College in Anandale on August 9, Bush said, "On the subject of taxes, just remember when you're talk about, we're

    just going to run up the taxes on a certain number of people, first of all, real rich people figure out how to dodge

    taxes, and the small business owners end up paying a lot of the burden of this taxation."


    So the way I

    see it when you guys talk about rich people you might really be thinking upper middle class or something. Does

    anyone here make more than $200,000 a year? Just curious ...

  13. #103
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    I make well under

    $200,000.00.

  14. #104
    Doctor of Scentology DrSmellThis's Avatar
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    Default Believability through Simplistic Repetition 101

    Notice how disciplined Bush is in staying "on message" with his responses to Kerry's

    critiques here:



    http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/09/21/k

    erry.tues/index.html


    No matter what Kerry brings up about the war, Bush's response is always that Kerry

    has multiple positions on it (implying one should ignore him and that he represents consistent leadership). This is

    due to Rove's training of him since before he was governor. Staying on a simple message you want to grind into the

    public's heads is a long time Rove trademark, and was one of the first things he taught Bush, according to the

    documentary. It is fascinating to learn about Rove's style and techniques, and then see in the daily news how

    closely and obediently Bush (and colleagues) follows them. I suspect there will be a lot of Political Science

    doctoral dissertations written on Rove before it's all over.
    Last edited by DrSmellThis; 09-21-2004 at 05:42 PM.
    DrSmellThis (creator of P H E R O S)

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