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  1. #211
    Phero Enthusiast PHP 87's Avatar
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    You partisan ideologues never fail

    to amuse - you cherry-pick articles while ignoring exculpatory evidence, and even cherry-pick from the least

    credible, lunatic-fringe sources like Michaelmoore.com, moveon.org, commondreams, buzzflash etc...that damage your

    credibility.

    Same goes for those on the far-right.

    You're just different sides of the same coin.

  2. #212
    Doctor of Scentology DrSmellThis's Avatar
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    [IMG]http://ads13.udc.advance.net/RealMedia/ads/adstream_lx.ads/www.cleveland.com/printer/printer.ssf/1793157192/Spo

    nsorRight/CLEVELANDLIVE/SPACER_MJX_CL11/Spacer_SpanMJX.html/34373236393533323434333832353830?_RM_EMPTY_&/base/cuyaho

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    Workers accused of fudging ’04 recount

    Prosecutor says Cuyahoga skirted rules


    Thursday, April 06, 2006Joan Mazzolini
    Plain Dealer Reporter
    After the 2004 presidential election,

    Cuyahoga County election workers secretly skirted rules designed to make sure all votes were counted correctly, a

    special prosecutor charges.
    While there is no evidence of vote fraud, the prosecutor said their efforts were

    aimed at avoiding an expensive - and very public - hand recount of all votes cast. Three top county elections

    officials have been indicted, and Erie County Prosecutor Kevin Baxter says more indictments are possible.


    Michael Vu, executive director of the Cuyahoga County elections board, said workers followed procedures that had

    been in place for 23 years. He said board employees had no objection to doing an exhaustive hand count if needed,

    meaning they had no motive to break the law.
    Internet bloggers have cried foul since 2004 about election results

    in Ohio, one of the key states in deciding the election. They have been tracking Baxter's investigation with online

    posts about the indictments.
    Baxter's prosecution centers on Ohio's safeguards for ensuring that every vote is

    counted.
    Baxter charges that Cuyahoga election workers - mindful of the monthlong Florida recount in 2000 - not

    only ignored the safeguards but worked to defeat them during Ohio's 2004 recount.
    Candidates for president from

    the Green and Libertarian parties requested the Ohio recount. State laws and regulations specify how a recount

    works.
    Election workers in each county are supposed to count 3 percent of the ballots by hand and by machine,

    randomly choosing precincts for that count.
    If the hand and machine counts match, the other 97 percent of the

    votes are recounted by machine. If the numbers don't match, workers repeat the effort. If they still don't match

    exactly, the workers must complete the recount by hand, a tedious process that could take weeks and cost hundreds of

    thousands of dollars.
    But the fix was in at the Cuyahoga elections board, Baxter charges.
    Days before the

    Dec. 16 recount, workers opened the ballots and hand-counted enough votes to identify precincts where the machine

    count matched.
    "If it didn't balance, they excluded those precincts," Baxter said.
    "The preselection

    process was done outside of any witnesses, without anyone's knowledge except for [people at] the Board of

    Elections."
    On the official recount day, employees pretended to pick precincts randomly, Baxter says. Dozens of

    Cuyahoga County election workers sat at 20 folding tables in front of dozens of witnesses and reporters.
    They

    did the hand and machine count of 3 percent of the votes 34 of the 1,436 precincts and when the totals matched, the

    recount was completed by machines.
    The recount gave Kerry 17 extra votes and took six away from Bush.
    But

    observers suspected that the precincts were not randomly chosen and asked a board worker about it, said Toledo

    attorney Richard Kerger. The worker acknowledged that there had been a precount.
    Kerger wrote a letter to

    Cuyahoga County Prosecutor Bill Mason, complaining and asking for an investigation. Mason recused himself, and

    Baxter was appointed special prosecutor. He brought elections workers before a grand jury to find out what happened.


    "They screwed with the process and increased the probability, if not the certainty, that there would not be a

    full countywide hand count," Baxter said.
    Everyone expected the recount to "be conducted in accordance of the

    law," he said.
    Vu said the precincts were chosen as they had been in the past, by a Democrat and a Republican in

    the ballot department.
    Because of Baxter's investigation, Vu declined to comment on whether the board's

    longtime procedures involve precounting precincts before the recount.
    Vu acknowledged that the selection of

    precincts was not completely random because precincts with 550 votes or fewer were not used.
    Nor were precincts

    counted where the number of ballots handed out on Election Day failed to match the number of ballots cast.
    Vu

    said the board also had asked for legal opinions from the prosecutor's office before and after the election to

    ensure all rules were followed.
    Kathleen Martin, who headed the civil division at the prosecutor's office and

    worked with the board on the issues, has since died.
    "If Kathleen Martin was still alive, she could put so much

    light on this," Vu said.
    Regardless, he said, the board was prepared for a full hand recount.
    "Why do all

    that work to prepare for the election, conduct it, audit it, canvass and then not meet this last obligation?" Vu

    said.
    "Our plan was to regroup after Christmas and just work through it."
    Baxter has said he can't

    understand why the three people indicted all managers - continue to work at the election office. None has the same

    duties they had in 2004.
    Kathleen Dreamer was manager of the board's ballot department. Rosie Grier was

    assistant manager. Jacqueline Maiden was Elections Division director and its third-highest-ranking employee. All

    have been charged with misdemeanor and felony counts of failing to follow the state elections law.
    A May 8 trial

    date is set for Dreamer and Grier, but Baxter wants to combine all three cases, including Maiden's, who was

    indicted later.
    Kerger said he was surprised by the charges.
    "We wrote, not to have any criminal charges,

    but just to find out what happened," he said. "The special prosecutor has the ability to conduct an investigation

    and not file any charges."
    Kerger said he believes there are two reasons, generally, why an elections board

    would precount before a recount. The first is to change the results of the vote, which he does not believe happened.


    The second, he speculated, was that "the workers were so tired and didn't want to hassle with doing a hand

    recount."
    To reach this Plain Dealer reporter:
    jmazzolini@plaind.com, 216-999-4563




    © 2006 The Plain Dealer © 2006 cleveland.com All Rights

    Reserved
    DrSmellThis (creator of P H E R O S)

  3. #213
    Doctor of Scentology DrSmellThis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PHP 87
    You partisan

    ideologues never fail to amuse - you cherry-pick articles while ignoring exculpatory evidence, and even cherry-pick

    from the least credible, lunatic-fringe sources like Michaelmoore.com, moveon.org, commondreams, buzzflash

    etc...that damage your credibility.
    Thanks for your feedback. You are entitled to your opinion and

    inaccurate, offensive namecalling, but I disagree. I also doubt the other posters consider themselves "partisan

    idealogues."

    Most of the articles posted here were from AP, Reuters, NY Times, Washington Post, L.A. Times, and

    any number of mainstream newspapers from around the country.

    There have been some from commondreams, etc., but

    those were largely reprints from mainstream press, other than maybe a couple editorials by people like Jimmy Carter,

    who is perhaps the world's leading expert on democratic elections. Here I am speaking only for myself.

    I check

    many sources of news every day, including the alternate/independent press, BBC, CNN, MSN, Yahoo, and lots of

    others, depending on the day. When I'm around a TV I even watch Fox just for the amusement value, and to find out

    what the right wing is thinking. Most of the major news sources, especially TV news (newspapers are much better,

    IMHO) are beholden to those in government who regulate them (and their profits), and the few mega-multinational

    corporations that own them, with their corporate interests. So you need to watch the alternative press to get

    closer to the truth, IMO. You seem to equate anything from the left, progressive or alternate press to "lunatic

    fringe", which mostly says a lot about you.

    If you want to post "exculpatory evidence" you are welcome to. What

    have you contributed to this thread?

    I don't recall seeing anything in the mainstream press that was really

    exculpatory (in general articles were few and far between from any angle, as the mainstream press supressed the

    whole story, as I documented in this thread.), but you're welcome and encouraged to post whatever you have.



    IMHO there is no exculpatory evidence to counter the mountain of stuff posted here, and that is why it cannot be

    posted. I'm not seeing detailed responses to hardly anything.

    Mostly what you see from the right leaning press

    is empty charges like "lunatic fringe" (like you say), "sour grapes", and people just ignoring it.

    I doubt very

    much you have read the extremely detailed Conyers report. If you had, I believe you would be utterly incapable of

    countering the evidence point by point, or finding any kind of detailed, substantive response from the right at all

    to the mountain of evidence contained in it.

    Recently it was asserted that some of the numbers of machine

    miscounted votes quoted in the Conyers report were not as high as originally thought in one or two counties, but it

    was a drop in the bucket. I don't recall seeing an article about it in the mainstream press, or any resolution of

    the numbers, but that is the only "exculpatory" evidence I have seen lately (it changes nothing in terms of overall

    conclusions in the report). I am willing to allow that those particular numbers may have been mistaken.

    Just

    above I posted news from the Cleveland plain Dealer of real indictments/prosecutions that are now happening in Ohio.

    Do you think that is made up?

    To me anyone that is not deeply concerned about voting rights here in the U.S. is

    just not paying attention to the facts, or is blinded by their own political bias. I have documented and supported

    why I believe that in massive detail in this thread, whereas you make empty charges, and have no substantive

    commentary or analysis to offer. You just dismiss the mountain of reports and evidence in this thread, leading me

    to believe you probably have your own political agenda, other than a drive to learn the truth or facts.

    I of

    course have my own personal beliefs about elections in this country. I am not now neutral on this issue, even

    though I was previously naive. The difference is I supported my beliefs in detail, posting mountains of information

    that no one had specific rebuttals for; whereas you offer nothing except labels and namecalling.

    This is about a

    desire for democracy in this country, not politics. Democrats under LBJ were also apparently involved in toying with

    election results, for example in Chicago. If Hillary Clinton or some Democrat gets elected and rigs elections, I

    will hold her feet to the fire as well. I never imagined I would see our country degenerate to this bad of a

    state. I feel very strongly that we need to restore democracy to this country, in many ways. If we do that the

    politics will tend to take care of themselves.
    Last edited by DrSmellThis; 04-08-2006 at 03:53 PM.
    DrSmellThis (creator of P H E R O S)

  4. #214
    Phero Enthusiast PHP 87's Avatar
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    Ironic that you see Fox News as

    right wing, but not the LA Times, NY Times, CBS etc... as left-wing.

    Look at the recent polls being run by

    the AP, where they oversample Democrats by double-digits, or how CBS broadcast forged documents a month before the

    election in order to influence an election.

    Or how a newspaper in the UK conducted a campaign urging it's

    readers to write letters to Ohio residents to vote for Kerry.

    Maybe Fox News only seems right wing in

    contrast to the rest of the media, which BTW, donates 68% of their campaign cash to the Democrats.

    The media

    tends to ignore wrongdoing by the Dems due to their inherent bias.

    And yes, the Dems are just as crooked as

    the Republicans, only the media and people like yourself tend to turn a blind eye to their wrongdoings.

    And

    yes, I tend to avoid these types of threads because facts, evidence and logic don't matter to the "Bush stole the

    election and was responsible for 9-11" conspiracy theory crowd.

    It's pointless to debate people whose minds

    are already made up, and who refuse to believe anything other than their own pre-conceived notions, no matter how

    much evidence is posted.

  5. #215
    Moderator Mtnjim's Avatar
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    Default I know it's an old thread, but...

    "Stealing Democracy: the New Politics of Voter Suppression" by Spencer
    Overton. (W. W. Norton & Company,

    2006).

    http://www.powells.com/partner/24075...2-0393061590-1

    This is a wonderful read both for

    political season junkies and those who
    would like to take a peek behind the curtain of our nation's

    most
    fundamental democratic institution--the public election. The book's
    first chapter is an eye-opening tour of

    the election process that will
    dissuade you of any notion that "one person, one vote" has ever been the
    goal of

    public elections. Beyond just the messy conclusion of the 2000
    Florida presidential election, "Stealing Democracy"

    instills a greater
    appreciation of the efforts of inside political partisans to prevent
    change from happening, and

    the monumental efforts that voting rights
    advocates have made to expand the franchise to minorities, women,

    youth,
    and new residents.

    By the end of Professor Overton's book you will have a better
    understanding of why

    Florida was not an isolated event, and why things
    have not improved much since that election. The book does do

    something
    that may surprise the reader, though: it is humorous, hopeful,
    insightful, balanced, and intuitive about

    the conflicting arguments
    surrounding redistricting, voter ID requirements, felon voting rights,
    the cost of

    election administration, Section 5 of the Voting Rights Act,
    and the role of federal, state, and local government

    in election
    administration.

    For example, Professor Overton details the delicate mating ritual that
    takes place

    during the drawing of new district lines following each
    decennial census. The process is controlled from beginning

    to end by
    partisan powers-that-be seeking to maintain the status quo. Every
    possible tactic is deployed to keep

    the language and tone of the process
    such that no one will question the assumption that this is the

    only
    acceptable method for drawing the lines for elected offices.

    Professor Overton also points out the little

    discussed problems of
    administering public elections: cost and shortages of election workers.
    Neglect of election

    administration meant voting systems became
    antiquated or left in disrepair, and poll workers who, although

    much
    appreciated, were little more than volunteers. He concedes that the
    process of election related

    decision-making will likely always be
    political, but he insists that it can be fair, provided there is a
    national

    discussion about a formula that would encompass federal, state,
    local, and citizen roles to provide an appropriate

    level of checks and
    balances for public election administration.

    According to Professor Overton, the

    machinations behind our elections
    serve to keep in power those who are currently in power by any means
    available.

    The book makes valuable observations and offers some
    foundations to begin a national discussion on reforming our

    most
    cherished democratic institution. Public elections should not be a
    matter of making sure that one party wins,

    but that every voter wins the
    right to equal access to participate in public elections. Now that would
    be a new

    experience. Happy Political Season!
    Freedom begins when you tell Mrs. Grundy to go fly a kite.
    --Lazarus Long

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