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  1. #61
    Moderator belgareth's Avatar
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    visit-red-300x50PNG
    My idea that any fraud would be

    easy to detect was based on the assumption that auditors would have access to the voting machines. Data should still

    be stored on them, if the numbers don't match with the tabulator you have a good idea that somebody was playing

    around.

    My assumption or presuppositions is that both sides are equally capable of deceit and fraud, not that

    they are predominantly wrong. I haven't seen any reason the believe otherwise. It seems a lot safer and more

    realistic to start from that presumption. As an example not an accusation, why couldn't the democrats tweak the

    results in some of the smaller precents in order to be able to claim cheating by the other side? It certainly

    wouldn't be the first time that tactic had been used. They did lay a lot of groundwork for that claim prior to the

    election. Frankly, if I was a republican considering cheating, after all the noise the democrats made about the

    possibility prior to the elections, I would have found some other method less likely to be scrutinized. It was

    pretty obvious that this would be looked at carefully and the slightest irregularity would be called. Neither of us

    believes the republicans are honest, but I don't assume they are stupid.

    Without trying to offend you and I

    apologize in advance if I do, you come across as extremely biased. So long as Bush won, I don't believe you would

    have accepted any results without claiming fraud. Nor do I believe you will agree that the democrats are just as

    capable of fraud. Your every comment has seemed to be an attempt to demonize that one group while implying the other

    is pristine and pure. I don't accept that.

    I don't believe the majority of what I have heard so far, much of

    it falls under "Me thinks he protests too much" philosophy. I would very much like to see an unbiased audit done of

    the entire election process. But to do that you'd have to bring people in from another country, IMHO. If we can

    manage an honest audit, I would like to see every person who had a hand in decieving the public in prison,

    regardless of their reasons or political affiliation or the office they hold. Tampering with an election is one of

    the worst possible crimes against an entire country.
    To compel a man to subsidize with his taxes the propagation of ideas which he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical.

    Thomas Jefferson

  2. #62
    Man of La Pancha
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    I think that people who

    experienced the bad side of Bush are wondering what the hell the rest of the country was thinking. (please ignore

    the following grammatical debacle) I can guarantee to you that no homosexual woman with family of victims in the

    9/11 attacks, with family of soldiers in the Iraq war, who lost her job in the last four years, who wasn't afraid

    of terrorism, and with no religious affiliation voted for Bush.

    I think that people who had no problems under

    Bush are satisfied with the result (listed typical profile in another post).

    It just goes to show you the,

    "Yeah, but how does it affect me?" principle is the only one that matters. "Who cares if the administration

    lies, the economy sucks, the deficit is enormous, there were wars in two different countries and our nation was

    attacked? I have a job, no one is hurting me, I want to prevent those gay people from marrying because that law

    doesn't harm me (a heterosexual) but saves me the uncomfort of having those types of people freely forming

    families within my community, terrorists will never attack my area and if they even tried Bush would smash them to

    hell beforehand, and I got a tax break! Hell, I'm better off than I was four years ago!"

    People are

    self-centered (can be a good and bad thing). When you look at it the way I described it above, I'm not even sure

    I'm surprised he won anymore...sure, the world hates us and we're ruining democracy, but has that done a damn

    thing to drastically harm 51% of the population individually? Not really.


    As much as the above paragraph

    sickens me, I have to admit that my life hasn't changed much, either. I don't think that means that the president

    did a good job, however...

  3. #63
    Moderator belgareth's Avatar
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    Doc,

    Your right, they did

    say "Like Excel". Excel is a spreadsheet program, it is not a database. There is a huge difference. A spreadsheet

    could be viewed as a single table within a database except that it does not have all the linkages to other tables.

    That is important because a database can have hundreds or even thousands of tables that are either directly or

    indirectly dependent on one another. Almost all databases require you to log into them as well. There wasn't

    anything about a log in in the article. It is possible that they used flat files in the GEM program but I'd be

    surprised with the large number of database programs available. I think it equally possible that the demonstration

    was a hoax. It wouldn't be all that hard to do, but can't prove it either way.

    Another point is they keep

    mentioning a Windows PC, like it's something bad or somehow flawed. Nothing could be further from the truth,

    especially if they are using Wndows 2000 or later and I can't imagine them using an earlier version. A good example

    are ATM machines. Many of them are Windows based, when was the last time you heard of an ATM being hacked? It can

    and has been done but it is rare. Don't make the mistake of comparing the tabulators with a personal PC just

    because they both use Windows. There's a world of difference.
    To compel a man to subsidize with his taxes the propagation of ideas which he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical.

    Thomas Jefferson

  4. #64
    Bad Motha Holmes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pancho1188
    It just goes to

    show you the, "Yeah, but how does it affect me?" principle is the only one that matters. "Who cares if the

    administration lies, the economy sucks, the deficit is enormous, there were wars in two different countries and our

    nation was attacked? I have a job, no one is hurting me, I want to prevent those gay people from marrying because

    that law doesn't harm me (a heterosexual) but saves me the uncomfort of having those types of people freely

    forming families within my community, terrorists will never attack my area and if they even tried Bush would smash

    them to hell beforehand, and I got a tax break! Hell, I'm better off than I was four years

    ago!"
    That's about the size of it.
    If a guy's a cocksucker in his life, when he dies, he don't become a saint. - Morris Levy, Hitmen

    Holmes' Theme Song

  5. #65
    Doctor of Scentology DrSmellThis's Avatar
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    I believe I have a good cause

    and I am doing a positive thing by advocating for it. It has been a lot of work to bring all this to one place from

    all over the internet. If there were indeed corruption, it would not be "extremely biased," in the negative way you

    are saying it, to call attention to it. Somebody needs to do this for the process to work. Any belief is a bias, but

    it is also rational to be suspicious, given all this information. As I said, but as you ignored, I am not concluding

    anything.

    No offense intended from me either, Belgareth, but you said you don't like democrats or

    liberals in general, and have made that consistently clear. That is a bias, and a generalization. You have in the

    past also acknowledged you like to scoff a little bit, and that is also a bias. These biases seem reflected here:

    Apparently, you consequently choose to "disbelieve" most of what is posted here without having good reason to

    believe it is false. You may be having unrealistic expectations of polished scientific rigor from a first wave of

    exploding information in its first hours, from people who are just starting to put 2 and 2 together. I don't think

    you are helping democracy any by just proclaiming you "don't believe most of that stuff" in a blanket fashion. You

    could always look at all the data and provide your own balanced analysis rather than find two or three unclear

    things from a mountain of new information and chuck it all out because of that.

    Others can judge for themselves.

    My primary concern is to get information out that otherwise would not come out. This is suspicious information that

    deserves light, and I am bringing it to light in whatever form it exists on the web. It comes from the left, but it

    sure as hell wouldn't be coming from the right, would it? What do you expect? It is just information. People are

    are free to interpret it however they want to.

    The numbers themselves aren't made up, though, as far as I can

    tell. They are coming from official records. It is ridiculous of you to say I would have reacted this way anyway,

    given the amount of information that has exploded. My first post on it was full of information, not something out of

    my head. The scandal is not suprising, as the information at the beginnning of the thread attests.

    As I've

    said many times, my bias is not against Republicans in general, or fiscal conservatives, but I have little faith in

    the current administration. I believe they are corrupt in a historic sense and you disagree. Regarding the

    big picture of corruption, I believe there has not been anything comparable from Democrats in general, or even other

    Republicans in general, despite your frequent unsupported assertions that it is all the same. To me that's a cop

    out. But I'm also not interested in defending all Democrats per se, and never said they were "pristine". You've

    got the wrong guy on that one. I don't know where you are getting that idea. I agree both parties have some

    systemic, process-related corruption. You don't know me that well, outside of my negative responses to the Bush

    administration, which is based on hundreds of mountains of information and a stark difference in philosophy. There

    have never been close to this many horribly negative books and documentaries written about a sitting

    president (and/or his administration), much less one that doesn't read books or watch documentaries. And no

    American administration has ever been anywhere near this hated on this planet. Sorry, but to me this "biased"

    is just having a grip.
    Last edited by DrSmellThis; 11-10-2004 at 03:09 AM.
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  6. #66
    Doctor of Scentology DrSmellThis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by belgareth
    Doc,

    Your

    right, they did say "Like Excel". Excel is a spreadsheet program, it is not a database. There is a huge difference.

    A spreadsheet could be viewed as a single table within a database except that it does not have all the linkages to

    other tables. That is important because a database can have hundreds or even thousands of tables that are either

    directly or indirectly dependent on one another. Almost all databases require you to log into them as well. There

    wasn't anything about a log in in the article. It is possible that they used flat files in the GEM program but I'd

    be surprised with the large number of database programs available. I think it equally possible that the

    demonstration was a hoax. It wouldn't be all that hard to do, but can't prove it either way.

    Another point is

    they keep mentioning a Windows PC, like it's something bad or somehow flawed. Nothing could be further from the

    truth, especially if they are using Wndows 2000 or later and I can't imagine them using an earlier version. A good

    example are ATM machines. Many of them are Windows based, when was the last time you heard of an ATM being hacked?

    It can and has been done but it is rare. Don't make the mistake of comparing the tabulators with a personal PC just

    because they both use Windows. There's a world of difference.
    These are valid issues to keep in mind. You

    are correct to wonder about all this. These are unanswered questions. However, I have no a priori reason to

    believe Bev Harris, a prominent, and respected expert and author on e-voting, just made up her demonstration in some

    dishonest, deceptive way. Maybe she was illustrating something (I'll have to go look at it again -- too much

    information all at once.).

    A lot of computer people do believe Windows is a notoriouly insecure OS -- I see

    this assertion on the web all the time. Hackers, virus writers, and other malicious folk usually target Windows in

    developing their malicious technology. I just saw an article today asserting that even Mac is safer because of that,

    to date.

    Having said that, I'm not a computer expert. This all is just one aspect of the picture that could

    take various forms without changing the larger picture much.
    Last edited by DrSmellThis; 11-09-2004 at 08:10 PM.
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  7. #67
    Doctor of Scentology DrSmellThis's Avatar
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    Default Factoid, question, and news item

    My mother, a registered Republican in the swing state of Ohio, voted for Kerry. I was under the impression that

    this was not unusual. Tonight I heard on Air America that, in 47 Florida counties, a full 100% of the Republicans

    were recorded as voting for Bush.

    If the votes were indeed recorded in that way, what do you all think are the

    odds that not a single registered Republican in those swing state counties voted for Kerry, Nader, or any

    other independent candidate?

    ***
    News item: Congressmen Conyers, Holt, Wechsler, and three others have

    just requested a GAO review of the voter fraud scandal. Nader is continuing his audit requests in other states

    besides NH. (I guess they all believe Elvis shot JFK too. ) More news will be posted as available.
    Last edited by DrSmellThis; 11-10-2004 at 05:23 AM.
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  8. #68
    Moderator belgareth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrSmellThis
    These are

    valid issues to keep in mind. You are correct to wonder about all this. These are unanswered questions. However, I

    have no a priori reason to believe Bev Harris, a prominent, and respected expert and author on e-voting, just

    made up her demonstration in some dishonest, deceptive way. Maybe she was illustrating something (I'll have to go

    look at it again -- too much information all at once.).

    A lot of computer people do believe Windows is a

    notoriouly insecure OS -- I see this assertion on the web all the time. Hackers, virus writers, and other malicious

    folk usually target Windows in developing their malicious technology. I just saw an article today asserting that

    even Mac is safer because of that, to date.

    Having said that, I'm not a computer expert. This all is just one

    aspect of the picture that could take various forms without changing the larger picture much.
    In almost 100%

    of all hacks, spyware, malware etc. attacks the attacking software is essentially invited onto the computer in one

    way or another. I can find examples of non-invitational attacks but they are very rare. By invitational I mean that

    through some medium, either clicking on a web link or opening an e-mail or some other means, a file was allowed to

    run on a computer. But that gate had to be opened first. That's also why I was asking how the data was transferred,

    it is important.

    While I don't claim to be an expert on all computer technology, it is what I have done most of

    my working life. I am an MCSE (Microsoft Certified System Engineer), a certified Oracle database administrater and

    have worked some with Delphi. It doesn't make me an expert but my questions are to the point.

    You may not like

    what I said about how you come across but the points were valild. You either chose to put your own interpretation on

    my point of view or badly misunderstand me and posted it. I replied by giving you an honest assessment of how you

    sound from here. At no time did I say I disliked democrats or liberals. I said I would not vote for one under any

    conditions because I do not believe in their message. That's a decision based on experience and observation with no

    intended emotional context. You have displayed a solid dislike for all things republican yourself. You have also

    completely avoided addressing my arguments, both public and private, of why I do not believe in the liberal or

    progressive agenda which includes, in almost every case, higher taxes.

    The democrats and the republicans both

    have a long history of deceiving the public. For a good example read the book "The Cuban Missile Crises". It

    outlines the deadly games Kennedy and his people played that nearly started a nuclear war. It was required reading

    in a PolySci class in a liberal college. There are other examples but that is a scary one. Yes, I am guilty of

    expecting the worst from all politicians but am rarely disappointed. I also assume a gun is loaded and any dog can

    bite. That's called prudence and being careful. I don't assume anybody is giving me the whole truth when it comes

    to politics because, like you and me both, they have agendas of their own. Is there something wrong with questioning

    every assumption? Personally, I am not interested in bashing either party, I am interested in knowing the truth. The

    only way to get to the truth is to question every portion of all side's actions both pre-election and during the

    election and not taking anything at face value. I'd be just as happy as can be to see Bush behind bars if he is

    guilty of the crimes you accuse him of. At the same time, I'd be just as happy to see Kerry behind bars if he is

    guilty of crimes. But I don't convict anybody on hearsay.

    One thing I am very puzzled by is Kerry's quick

    concession and not a word since.
    Last edited by belgareth; 11-10-2004 at 04:51 AM.
    To compel a man to subsidize with his taxes the propagation of ideas which he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical.

    Thomas Jefferson

  9. #69
    Doctor of Scentology DrSmellThis's Avatar
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    Much of that has been covered.

    Nobody is convicting anybody on heresay. Let the investigations show what they will. I hope mainly for reform.

    Republicans will benefit just as much from that. How could anyone argue against legitimate voting?

    A lot of

    people are puzzled and disappointed by Kerry's rolling over like a bi-otch and prostrating himself so quickly,

    despite having promised to fight to the death for every vote. Edwards clearly didn't have this submissive

    predilection, but Kerry insisted, the man that he is. He is trying to be all things to all "mainstream"

    people, maybe; but true progressives (No, this term has little or nothing to do with raising taxes, as the right

    wing cliche you propagate nevertheless goes. This should give you a clue as to why I don't respond.) have as little

    patience for this as they had for Mr. Nader's self absorbed stunts. Unlike mainstream Democrats, progressives have

    balls and aren't afraid to be unpopular. Kerry is sitting around trying to figure out how he can come across as

    harsher against gays to appease the right. He's probably wearing a pink nightie right now, and Teresa is sodomizing

    him with a Heinz Ketchup bottle. Though Kerry wants to run again, he is finished with his roots. I broke down crying

    during his concession speech, but it wasn't because he lost. I have a lot of information here, but am not posting

    it so as to avoid distraction.
    Last edited by DrSmellThis; 11-10-2004 at 05:45 AM.
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  10. #70
    Man of La Pancha
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrSmellThis
    and Teresa

    is sodomizing him with a Heinz Ketchup bottle.
    You can insult Teresa and Bush and Kerry and whoever

    else...but I'll be damned if I sit here while you insult Heinz Ketchup! (Spoken like a true Pittsburgher)



    Seriously, though, Kerry conceded because:

    1. He lost the popular vote and was down in every state that was

    debatable
    2. Republicans would've taken shots at him again and again until his credibility was stripped away, just

    like Al Gore. Bush said himself, "I'm not going to comment until Kerry has time to let the election results set in

    (aka has time to realize he lost)."
    3. The media and public wanted an answer of who won because they are impatient

    and stupid...everyone wants an answer right now...no, patience is not a virtue in this country...they

    would've hung Kerry out to dry, too...

    A rigged election is the easiest thing to get away with in this country.

    Everyone wants an answer and forgets about it once it's over. Even if you question the results, no one is going to

    go back once it's over...and there's not enough solid evidence to give reason to redo the election. People will

    shrug you off as a conspiracy theorist. They'll say they'll make it better next time, but it's always just as

    bad.

    I'm not surprised Kerry conceded so early. Al Gore will go down in history as the sore loser...would you

    want that stigma for the rest of your life?

    I still say they shouldn't announce the winner for at least a month

    after the election to ensure an answer. People are too impatient.

  11. #71
    Moderator belgareth's Avatar
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    It's easy to write off a

    genuine concern of higher taxes as right wing cliche buts lets deal with facts instead of misleading and evasive

    labels. No matter how you structure any program, it has a price tag. That price tag is paid for out of tax money.

    Since government programs are inefficient, all government programs end up costing far more than they should and with

    far less of that cost going to those who really need it. The net result is a greater burden on the economy and

    bigger government. As I understand it, the progressive plan is to use a greater tax on higher income earners to help

    those in need, and that is a worthy cause on the face of it. The unfortunate part is that it doesn't work very

    well, costing too much, serving to few and all too often abused.

    Lowering the tax burden on the backbone of this

    country, the small business, would have far greater, further reaching and longer term benefits. A reduction of just

    5% would put thousands to work because the small business owner would be more able to afford the additional

    employees. That in turn would generate more tax dollars while it reduced the number of people needing the benefits.

    With more people earning money, they will have more to spend, save and invest which in turn again helps everybody by

    generating more revenue. Increase the tax burden the same amount to pay for another program and you will see exactly

    the opposite effect. I've over-simplified the concept but it really does work that way.

    Personally, I would

    support a non-partisan audit of the entire election from begining to end. But at the end of it, I would expect every

    person shown to be involved in election fraud to be brought up on federal charges and prosecuted to the full extent

    of the law for two reasons.
    1. We pride ourselves on being a nation of laws. If our leaders aren't required to

    obey those laws, how can the people be expected too?
    2. Failure to enforce the law breeds contempt for all laws.

    We should not have laws that are not enforced or are unenforcable as it breeds anarchy.

    The electoral process

    and our government as a whole needs to be cleaned up. It will never be honest until we as a nation start holding our

    elected representatives' feet to the fire for their behavoir. These people are supposed to be working for and

    representing us. Is this how you want to be represented?
    To compel a man to subsidize with his taxes the propagation of ideas which he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical.

    Thomas Jefferson

  12. #72
    Doctor of Scentology DrSmellThis's Avatar
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    I think that what you are

    doing, precisely, is using misleading labels. You just used "evasive", another totally unnecessary label. (This will

    not lead to "fun debate" any time soon, unless you enjoy provoking people. If so please give it a rest for

    now where I am concerned. It's been a bad week.) You continue with your unidimensional labeling of progressives as

    being essentially all about high taxes. This is a pretty serious misrepresentation of progressive politics, IMHO. I

    often read progressive literature, and raising taxes is not often listed at the top of anyone's concerns, or even

    mentioned very much, that I see. Maybe AKA would disagree with me on this one, as I think he considers himself

    progressive, and no one in the progressive movement is asking me to speak for them. But I believe you can be very

    progressive without favoring high taxes. It's what you do with the money you have. In fact, you can be progressive

    in the ways you use tax cuts to encourage progressive causes, such as developing alternate energy sources,

    reusing materials, developing "sustainable" businesses, working for peace and justice; or building community. Not

    lowering taxes, rolling back tax cuts for the wealthiest individuals, or not going to a flat tax is not the

    same as raising taxes. Some might want to temporarily to help get us out of debt, but the reality is that we have an

    obscene debt thanks to Bush (not the "damn tax and spend liberals", who gave us a historic surplus), and we need to

    do something about it. It's easy for you to say that government programs are useless, that we should take

    that money and give it to the rich; as you might not need those programs. Honestly, though I have way more training

    in taxation (and economics) than most people (I have a finance degree and once was a financial consultant for Lehman

    Brothers, whose 102nd floor headquarters went down with the WTC), I find it too complex, boring to study, and cannot

    claim to be an expert on it. I don't doubt that tax cuts would benefit your own business in various ways, and I

    believe you when you say that you'd use a radical tax cut to hire one or two people; but you are not the same as

    America. Bush's tax cuts have not increased employment, and it is hard to show it's the answer. Here in Oregon

    they have completely gutted health care, welfare, social services and education. The Oregon Health Plan, long

    considered a model success, is now basically defunct. I can't begin to tell you the level of crisis. It sucks for

    people who aren't wealthy, but the rich are getting much richer here (and everywhere in the U.S.) The homeless here

    are filling the streets without services (so many they built their own city near Portland called "Dignity Village,"

    from recycled materials, until it lost its land recently) and the emergency rooms (now the poor's primary source of

    health care, and mental health care -- talk about inefficiency!) are jammed to the point of insanity. They are

    emptying jails. Many of the unemployed can't get unemployment, as the funds are dry. That is where Bush's tax cuts

    have gotten us. Nothing personal, but I love that rich conservatives think that too high taxes for the rich is the

    worst problem for America. Very telling. I'm sure everything can be solved through trickle down economics. But can

    we take the tax talk to another thread, please?
    Last edited by DrSmellThis; 11-10-2004 at 02:14 PM.
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    Default Cuyoga County, Ohio submits 97,000 more votes than voters!

    DrSmellThis (creator of P H E R O S)

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    Default Pollster Zogby on exit polling, voter fraud and how to audit the election

    DrSmellThis (creator of P H E R O S)

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    Moderator Mtnjim's Avatar
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    " Bush's tax cuts have not

    increased employment, and it is hard to show it's the answer."

    Bush isn't planning on tax cut creating

    jobs, it'll be his "training programs" that he emphasized in the "debates"!

    You know, training computer

    programmers whose jobs have been "outsourced" to India how to say "you want fries with that?".
    Freedom begins when you tell Mrs. Grundy to go fly a kite.
    --Lazarus Long

  16. #76
    Moderator belgareth's Avatar
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    No, I don't like provoking

    people but will not stand for being misrepresented either. Labelling my belief about taxes a right wing cliche was

    provoking, baseless, untrue and evaded the real issues. Saying or implying that I promoted tax cuts or giving tax

    dollars to the richest was utterly untrue. Nor did I say that raising taxes was included in progressive liturature.

    What I said was that programs cost money and have to be paid for. The only way for the government to pay for those

    programs is with tax dollars, unless somebody has managed to make money grow on trees or materialize out of thin

    air. I did not say or in any way refer to trickle down economics either. But if you are going to use tax incentives

    for one program, you are going to get the tax money from somewhere else or you are going to get into deficit

    spending which is something I don't believe this country can afford any more of.

    You have a degree in

    economics? Then you probably know as well as I do how long it takes government policy to have a large scale effect

    on the economy, enough to reduce the deficit by any significant degree. If you know all that, why are you giving the

    credit to the democrats? There have also been several comments that the deficit reduction was mostly paper shuffle

    in the first place. I don't know enough about that to be sure but it is something I am trying to learn more about.

    I hope you understand about the stock market bubble, where it came from, how long it took to build and the surety of

    it's bursting. That debacle grew under Clinton and was a disaster just waiting to happen.

    I used my business as

    an example but in fact it applies to numerous small and medium businesses. No small business owner with half a brain

    would turn down the opportunity to grow their business and that means hiring people, buying goods, etc. That is good

    for the economy and will generate tax revenues for in excess of the tax reductions.

    So, the rich get richer and

    the poor get poorer in your progressive state? And it is strictly the fault of conservative federal politics?



    Probably the funniest part of all this is you keep telling me that my politics are conservative republican while

    me friends here keep calling me a liberal democrat for saying the same things. I know I've said that before but the

    humor in it gives me a chuckle every time you or one of my friends here make a comment like that.
    To compel a man to subsidize with his taxes the propagation of ideas which he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical.

    Thomas Jefferson

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    Doctor of Scentology DrSmellThis's Avatar
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    Default

    I again ask you as a moderator

    to show some respect for the issue we are discussing in this thread.
    DrSmellThis (creator of P H E R O S)

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    Moderator belgareth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mtnjim
    " Bush's tax

    cuts have not increased employment, and it is hard to show it's the answer."

    Bush isn't planning on tax cut

    creating jobs, it'll be his "training programs" that he emphasized in the "debates"!

    You know, training

    computer programmers whose jobs have been "outsourced" to India how to say "you want fries with that?".

    Now there is a possible source of revenue. Stop giving these huge tax breaks and incentives to companies that

    outsource offshore. That is a problem that has been growing for a long time and is pervasive in my industry as well

    as many others. In the Dallas/Fort Worth area there are thousands of highly skilled technical people out of work due

    to outsourcing. It's something both parties have allowed to go on for far too long and is killing our technical

    industries. That was one of the key issues for me this election and I never heard either candidate say anything

    worthwhile about how to stop it.
    To compel a man to subsidize with his taxes the propagation of ideas which he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical.

    Thomas Jefferson

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    Moderator belgareth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrSmellThis
    I again ask

    you as a moderator to show some respect for the issue we are discussing in this thread.
    You hadn't asked

    me in the first place so I am not sure what you mean by again. And in every case, my posts were responding to you.
    To compel a man to subsidize with his taxes the propagation of ideas which he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical.

    Thomas Jefferson

  20. #80
    Doctor of Scentology DrSmellThis's Avatar
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    Default Votergate 2004 hits mainstream media!

    Here is a really excellent televised report on Votergate by MSNBC news. The video is excellent,

    free, lengthy, and I encourage everyone to enjoy it! I was jealous of bjf who told me it was on, because he has

    cable and I don't; but then found it free for download.



    http://home.comcast.net/~hugh.moore/coun

    tdown_on_voting_irregs.wmv


    You have to love the part about Homeland Security and the "terrorist threat" in

    Warren County.
    DrSmellThis (creator of P H E R O S)

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    Default Ribbons

    A black ribbon (like the

    yellow you sometimes see people wearing) signifies "Election Mourning".
    There is a cure for electile dysfuntion!!!!

  22. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrSmellThis
    Here is a

    really excellent televised report on Votergate by MSNBC news. The video is excellent, free, lengthy, and I

    encourage everyone to enjoy it! I was jealous of bjf who told me it was on, because he has cable and I don't; but

    then found it free for download.



    http://home.comcast.net/~hugh.moore/coun

    tdown_on_voting_irregs.wmv


    You have to love the part about Homeland Security and the "terrorist threat" in

    Warren County.
    F***ing disgusting slimeballs! No matter what else, election fraud is unacceptable!

    I

    don't know much about the GAO, can they operate without interference from the rest of the government? We deserve to

    know who the real president is. Nobody has the right to screw with our votes. If the accusations are true some

    people need to hang!

    Thanks for posting it, Doc. And BJF for making it available.
    To compel a man to subsidize with his taxes the propagation of ideas which he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical.

    Thomas Jefferson

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    Default Brothers head both Diebold and ESS

    I'm sure it's a coincidence, and they're not in cahoots.



    [url="http://www.la.indymedia.org/news/2004/11/118589.php"]http://www.la.indymedia.org/news/2004/11/118589.php[/ur

    l]
    DrSmellThis (creator of P H E R O S)

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    Default

    Again, a great link to a ton

    of information, compellingly presented:



    http://www.solarbus.org/stealyourelection/

    Are you all

    keeping up with the information?
    DrSmellThis (creator of P H E R O S)

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    Default

    Maybe I'm not the only one

    with suspicions this direction. This paragraph caught my attention, especially the last two sentences.

    Once

    again we are witness to an “eyes closed, hands off” approach to protecting America. The 2004 election rests in the

    private hands of the Urosevich brothers, who are financed by the far-out right wing and top donors to the Republican

    Party. The Democrats are either sitting ducks or co-conspirators. I don't know which.
    To compel a man to subsidize with his taxes the propagation of ideas which he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical.

    Thomas Jefferson

  26. #86
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by belgareth
    F***ing disgusting

    slimeballs! No matter what else, election fraud is unacceptable!

    I don't know much about the GAO, can they

    operate without interference from the rest of the government? We deserve to know who the real president is. Nobody

    has the right to screw with our votes. If the accusations are true some people need to hang!

    Thanks for

    posting it, Doc. And BJF for making it available.

    I didn't post the video, just told doc about

    it when it was on tv.

    The representative interviewd there can be emailed at

    john.conyers@mail.house.gov as dst pointed out in one of his many lengthy posts, highlighting all

    the info in the video and more.

    Best thing for any of us to do is not to just read this stuff, but rather to

    "pass it along" to our friends and family via email so the word can spread. Otherwise, we're not doing much

    good.

  27. #87
    Moderator belgareth's Avatar
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    The best thing we can do is

    pass it along and encourage everybody to write asking for a full investigation.
    To compel a man to subsidize with his taxes the propagation of ideas which he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical.

    Thomas Jefferson

  28. #88
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    Default

    " The Democrats are either sitting

    ducks or co-conspirators. I don't know which."

    Depends if they got enough $$$ or not.

    I'm not

    usually a "conspiracy theorist", but has anyone noticed the growing influence of the major international

    corporations in the running of the government. Not only that, but the well paying jobs in business and manufacturing

    are being "outsourced" off shore and a few major companies are buying up of forcing competitors out of business

    insuring less competition.
    Combined with the "concessions" being given major corporations by the government...

    unpaid or undercosted oil leases, failure of BLM to collect fees from the logging companies for removing timber from

    government land etc. WELL, ...
    Freedom begins when you tell Mrs. Grundy to go fly a kite.
    --Lazarus Long

  29. #89
    Doctor of Scentology DrSmellThis's Avatar
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    Default Diebold code, keys, security

    News Update from Citizens for Legitimate Government

    November 10,

    2004

    http://www.legitgov.org/



    http://www.legitgov.org

    /index.html#breaking_news




    Diebold Source Code!!! --by ouranos

    (dailykos.com) "Dr. Avi Rubin is

    currently Professor of Computer Science at John Hopkins University. He



    'accidentally' got his hands on a copy of the Diebold software

    program--Diebold's source code--which runs

    their e-voting machines. Dr.

    Rubin's students pored over 48,609 lines of code that make up this

    software.

    One line in particular stood out over all the rest:

    #defineDESKEY((des_KEY8F2654hd4" All commercial programs

    have provisions to

    be encrypted so as to protect them from having their contents read or

    changed by anyone

    not having the key... The line that staggered the Hopkins

    team was that the method used to encrypt the Diebold

    machines was a method

    called Digital Encryption Standard (DES), a code that was broken in 1997

    and is NO

    LONGER USED by anyone to secure programs. F2654hd4 was the key to

    the encryption. Moreover, because the KEY was

    IN the source code, all

    Diebold machines would respond to the same key. Unlock one, you have then

    ALL

    unlocked. I can't believe there is a person alive who wouldn't

    understand the reason this was allowed to

    happen. This wasn't a mistake by

    any stretch of the imagination."

    DrSmellThis (creator of P H E R O S)

  30. #90
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    Default John Hopkins analysis of e-voting software and security

    More for you computer people:



    http://avirubin.com/vote.pdf
    DrSmellThis (creator of P H E R O S)

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