It is in trouble.
People
are thinking in "True/False form" (or A/B multiple choice), rather than in "essays".
But Nader doesn't have
the answer, as regards this particular election. We need to get Bush out, then worry about the 2 party system.
It is in trouble.
People
are thinking in "True/False form" (or A/B multiple choice), rather than in "essays".
But Nader doesn't have
the answer, as regards this particular election. We need to get Bush out, then worry about the 2 party system.
DrSmellThis (creator of P H E R O S)
Its total garbage.... andOriginally Posted by belgareth
if we can't find a way to fix it.... we're doomed to pointless elections with worthless candidates.
Eep Opp Ork Aah Aah...
And by following either major party, a totalarian society.Originally Posted by Gossamer_2701
I don't see any significant difference between the candidates. They are both working toOriginally Posted by DrSmellThis
further their own party's agenda, neither of which is in this country's best interests. We need to worry right now
about fixing what is wrong with the process before it gets much worse. The longer we wait, the more difficult the
process is going to be.
"If the Lakers can let Phil
Jackson go, we ought to be able to let Bush go! Time for a new approach! Give someone else a shot! To say this guy
is an ineffective diplomat, for example, is absolutely unquestionable. He is damaged goods. The world hates him.
Right or wrong, he is not going to talk his way back into the world's hearts any time soon, with his self-admitted
expressive disorder. There is no way Bush could do the job for four more years, even if he wasn't the moral
equivalent of Stalin. Even traditional Republican interests would be better served by Kerry at this point than by
Bush. For example, Kerry has a much, much better military mind. There is no way Bin Laden would still be at large if
Kerry had been in there."
My own opinion is that he should have been impeached shortly after 9/11. If no one
is willing to put the blame where the blame really belongs, then the boss must go.
What does 9/11 have to do with Bush?Originally Posted by koolking1
Normally I have agreed with these kinds of statements, for the very reasons you state.Originally Posted by belgareth
In this case, however, I
disagree very strongly. Did you see Fahrenheit? There is a huge difference between Kerry and Bush. Kerry and Colin
Powell? Maybe not. But Bush?!?
DrSmellThis (creator of P H E R O S)
it happend on his watch.
He is the Commander in Chief. It was a miserable failure.
In either case, they are going to continue to drag this country down. In thatOriginally Posted by DrSmellThis
respect there is no difference. We cannot afford either of them or their parties.
In some cases, Bush has done
the right thing. The economy is improving but might have improved if he had visited antartica for three years.
There's no way of knowing. I am certain though that democratic policies would have had us into deep recession or
double digit inflation (Remember Jimmy Carter's economy?).
At the same time, I am utterly oppossed to the
majority of Bush's policies and him in general. To name a few idiotic policies: Stem Cell Research, Gay Marraige,
Iraq, The Patriot Act and the list goes on.
Despite the fact that the whole thingOriginally Posted by koolking1
started during Clinton's tenure? Eve though the terrorists were allowed into this country under Clinton's
policies? Should we maybe impeach Clinton retroactively? Remeber that the first terrorist attacks here were during
his tenure.
So long as you and everybody else accepts that it is a two party system it willOriginally Posted by Gossamer_2701
continue to be. When people start to think and vote for the person instead of their party because they hope they can
win, then they have started down the path to fixing some of the problems. It isn't something you can change
overnight, it will take years.
It's tooOriginally Posted by belgareth
much like work to think. Unfortunately, the sheeple will continue to accept the "two party system". At least those
who can be bothered to vote.
Freedom begins when you tell Mrs. Grundy to go fly a kite.
--Lazarus Long
People used to participate, what happened? In some countries participation isOriginally Posted by Mtnjim
close to 100%, why can't we do that? I'll admit that it makes it easier to develop a totalarian society when the
majority sit at home and apathetically wring their hands in dispair. Is that acceptable to you?
When I get done on this forum
today, I'm going to go help out my libertarian drinking buddy with his
campaign, and finish filling out my Exemption Statement of Limited Activity for the Aug 3rd primary.
He's a librarian?
Go
figure.
If a guy's a cocksucker in his life, when he dies, he don't become a saint. - Morris Levy, Hitmen
Holmes' Theme Song
I maintain that both parties
are crooks, their goals and objectives just differ slightly. When something goes wrong they always try to hang it on
the other party, no matter who was at fault. Below is an example. Didn't we hear how the GOP was involved in Enron?
Which they probably were but...
This is an interesting bit of information that you don't hear
much about in the media ---
a. Enron's chairman did meet with the president and the vice president in
the Oval Office.
b.. Enron gave $420,000 to the president's party over three years.
c.. It
donated $100,000 to the president's inauguration festivities.
d.. The Enron chairman stayed at the White
House 11 times.
e.. The corporation had access to the administration at its highest levels and even
enlisted
the Commerce and State Departments to grease deals for it.
f.. The taxpayer-supported
Export-Import Bank subsidized Enron for more than $600 million
in just one transaction. Scandalous!
g.. BUT...the president under whom all this happened WASN'T George W. Bush.
SURPRISE ....... It was
Bill Clinton!
To compel a man to subsidize with his taxes the propagation of ideas which he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical.
Thomas Jefferson
I saw a bumper sticker the other day
that said:
"Republican Democrat; same shit, different piles"
Something like that.
B
That about says it all.Originally Posted by Bruce
To compel a man to subsidize with his taxes the propagation of ideas which he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical.
Thomas Jefferson
It is interesting that you
folks could still see it that way in this election, even if it is mostly true in general. I've been inclined to see
things that way in the past myself, (even in the last election before I knew what havok Bush would wreak) but have
definitely been moved almost to a state of panic this time around about the need to change leadership. Ultimately,
I'd like to be able to vote for independent candidates too. Philosophically I'm neither Democrat nor Republican,
to be sure. But now really seems like a time for "stopping the bleeding", before the damage becomes too irreversible
(In a way, it seems like it already has become that way.). Even if Kerry wasn't that different from Bush (which
seems impossible from their stated policies); just the fact of having someone new in there (even another
Republican) would help our international standing immensely, at least for the time being. As former President Jimmy
Carter said yesterday:Here's the full text of the 80 year-old Carter's speech, which is interesting in that it was probably the"What a difference these few months of extremism have made. The United States has
alienated its allies, dismayed its friends and inadvertently gratified its enemies by proclaiming a confused and
disturbing strategy of pre-emptive war... In the world at large, we cannot lead if our leaders mislead."
most strongly worded of the otherwise tame convention:
http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITI
CS/07/26/dems.carter.transcript/index.html
Last edited by DrSmellThis; 07-27-2004 at 01:04 PM.
DrSmellThis (creator of P H E R O S)
after watching last night
my Sue was hoping that Carter was running. I thought Clinton came across well and am thinking the stock market is
up today, for a change, due to his appearance; people do like "peace and prosperity".
Yeah, that was a great speech.Originally Posted by DrSmellThis
If a guy's a cocksucker in his life, when he dies, he don't become a saint. - Morris Levy, Hitmen
Holmes' Theme Song
I like Carter now much more
than when he was president, not that he was that bad then. He really is a great guy, and has gained an awful lot of
wisdom over the years. He hit a few nails on the head there! I loved his remark about the country needing
"maturity" in the office. I'd like to have that guy as a next door neighbor and eat some barbecue.
DrSmellThis (creator of P H E R O S)
Agree.
I've always
thought Carter was a great man (as in highly intelligent, decent human being).
If a guy's a cocksucker in his life, when he dies, he don't become a saint. - Morris Levy, Hitmen
Holmes' Theme Song
at least the Dems have some
past worthies to parade out. Who will the Reps put up, Newt Gingrich?
Whether you like him or not, I thought Clinton's speech last night was one of the bestOriginally Posted by koolking1
speeches I've heard from anyone in many years.
Another thing. Speaking of short attention spans, not that
many years ago, we got opening to closing coverage (even the boring parts) every day. Now, we get a couple of hours
every couple of days. No more plank battles.
Freedom begins when you tell Mrs. Grundy to go fly a kite.
--Lazarus Long
I find it hard to believe that
you folks have forgotten the 20% plus inflation rate or the 14% mortgage rates under Jimmy Carter's policies, or
the fact that American citizens were held hostage while he did virtually nothing but wring his hands. I don't
remember what the unemployment rate was but it was astronomical too.
Jimmy Carter is very bright, one of the
most intelligent presidents we've ever had, but under his philosophies, this country went to crap!
Don't
misunderstand me, Bush is a turd! I do not support the majority of his policies. But the terrorist attacks were
planned and put in place under Clinton's rule. The economic bubble was allowed to swell to the bursting point under
Clinton. I saw it in the news, I heard it from my stockbroker. Damned near everybody knew it was ready to burst but
Clinton and his supporters. Major FUBARs like Enron started and flourished under Clinton. He was not a good
president, he was just good at hiding his screw-ups. They don't call him Slick Willy for nothing.
The only good
thing I can say about Bush is he is too damned dumb to screw with the economy and it is healing itself after Clinton
screwed it up royally. For the rest of it, Bush's empire building scares me but I doubt Kerry is any better. He is
bought and paid for, just like every other person by time they get into that office. Just like Bush and Clinton and
most presidents before them, they'll do whatever their masters tell them to do. In other words, you aren't going
to get change by voting for a party.
To compel a man to subsidize with his taxes the propagation of ideas which he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical.
Thomas Jefferson
You can always say the problem
isn't with a current administration, but is a previous one's fault. In all honesty, it's hard to trace beginnings
and faults. It was said at the time that Carter lacked "technical skills" for the job, such as management skills,
cheerleading, decisiveness, etc. I don't know that his philosophy was the problem, except that he was a peacetime
president at a time when the world happened to need a bit more agression from us. People also criticised him for
being honest and saying things that folks didn't want to hear. Inflation/interest rates started as a big problem in
the 60's, IIRC. A lot of political/econ/history folks blame it on Johnson, due to his so called "Great Society"
programs.
I used to be a stockbroker, BTW, for an extremely large international finance corporation (I once
lived and worked in the WTC); and was never impressed with their breadth or depth of knowledge of the economy. I
honestly don't believe the huge dive we've seen (and here I'm not just speaking about "stockbroker economic
statistics", which have to do with how things are going for rich people; but about the overall quality of life of
regular people as well.) in so many areas could be due to Clinton, who left a budget surplus for the first time in
forever, despite record deficits in the previous administration (deficits which were also characterized as a ticking
time bomb at the time, ready to level the next admin's (i.e., Clinton's) economy.).
I know Oregon has never
before been such a total mess economically (e.g., the Oregon Health Plan is now basically defunct, unemployment is
at record rates, school sports have been elimenated and the year drastically shortened, mental health and substance
treatment for the poor is basically a thing of the past, homelessness has maybe tripled, people who are working are
increasingly well below a living wage.) Bush even admitted at one point that he thought the obvious dive
was due to his War, while trying to convince people that "economic sacrifice is necessary for the sake of
patriotism". Now it is harder to get away with invoking the spirit of his war to justify economic sacrifices.
But taking over countries with unilateral invasions, based on lies, is a huge big deal! You can't counter that
fact with something like, "yeah, but so-and-so's policy on trade (or energy, or interest rates, or whatever) was
crap." Everybody's policy on such inexact sciences is arguably crap! Not to be sensationalistic, but this
specific type of reasoning (nothing personal) really sounds just like the German's justifications for Hitler ("but
he had such and such economic policy when Europe's economy was crap after WWI"). Are we really that numb, and
cynical that we can't have big emotions about -- literally as literally can be! -- the mass murder of a
citizenry, and wasting of our own soldiers' lives, (900+ and counting, unfortunately) based on lies and selfish
ambition? The whole world has gone in the three years since 9/11/01 from loving us, flying US flags, and identifying
with us to hating us passionately because of that, and that is only a secondary problem! I have never in my
lifetime seen anything like this in our country. It is horrific. There is no comparison even with Viet Nam. Apples
and Oranges.
Who could own that for America, and even invite more of the same (e.g., Iran -- Bush's next
stated focus. Whatever happened to Bin Laden?)?!? Who could fail to reject that with all they had? It just
hits me right in the middle of my sense of humanity.
In perspective, I could care less about, say, Kerry
or Clinton's relationship with someone from Enron. Lobbyists have always used the White House as a motel. They
literally have lobbyist suites there, and they're constantly occupied by several corporate executives from various
places. (Major universities have those too.) I do respect the philosophy of being against the 2 party system and
special interest politics as it stands, for sure. But some things are bigger than politics. Sometimes we have to
temporarily let go of a smaller belief or value, dear as it may be, for a bigger one.
I am also deeply afraid of
his environmental policies and his domestic policies. The Earth is one degree warmer on average, and there is open
ocean at the magnetic north pole, where ice has always been as far back as we know.
BTW, the Patriot Act is
scary. No congessperson read the Patriot Act before voting on it. What has the current situation been like
with Constitutional rights been like in your towns? Here in Portland, just the other day, the FBI tried to break
into an "environmental art gallery" (in a building where a friend of mine happens to live) here without a search
warrant, flashing their guns to random, innocent people to intimidate them, and pretending to "quick draw" a gun
from their breast pocket while laughing. A day later the FBI ransacked and destroyed another innocent guys
apartment, without even checking who lived there (their person of interest had been evicted several months before).
A month ago here in Portland the FBI arrested and held a completely innocent lawyer for weeks based on someone
else's fingerprints they had never seen; claiming he was a terrorist suspect on that basis only. It was in all the
papers. He had defended a few Muslim people and converted to Islam.
This all starts at the top, just like the
military prison torturing. Not suprisingly, Bush participated in hazing recruits in his own college fraternity --
hazing which included, among other things, branding people with glowing hot coat hangers. Mr. Bush later defended
the specific practice to a classmate, Garry Trudeau, as "hurting no worse than a cigarette burn".
Last edited by DrSmellThis; 07-27-2004 at 09:02 PM.
DrSmellThis (creator of P H E R O S)
Doc,
You've missed my
point. To repeat, I do not support Bush. Nor do I support his war in Iraq. If you'll go back and look at my posts
at the time, I railed against it then. I was oppossed to attacking another country, did not believe Iraq had
anything to do with the WTC and was against spending money on a needless war of aggression halfway around the world.
I will not agree that the previous policy of giving away billions of dollars has done any more good than Bush's
unwarranted attacks.
My point is that there is little difference between the two parties and neither is going to
be good for this country. People were talking about how great things were under democrats and I pointed out that
wasn't true. I was attempting to point out the hypocracy of BOTH parties and the party lines.
Regardless of
your experiences as a broker, mine warned me many months in advance that the economic bubble was going to burst. I
also saw it forecast in the news. IIRC, the Clinton admin said it was nonsense, never happen. I may have lost some
last minute gains but saved major losses by pulling back my investments when he told me too. Hopefully, as a former
broker, you have seen the overlapping curves representing the various segments of an economy and how they respond to
one another. One upward ot downward trend triggers the next and so on. There is of course time lapsed between each
curve. The economy is a huge thing with incredible momentum that doesn't react instantly, it takes time. The only
credit I give Bush is for keeping his meddling hands out of something that far better people than him don't
understand. His taking billions of dollars out of the economy for his war is wrong and unacceptable. I want Bush out
as much as you but don't believe another party man from either major party is going to be any better.
Schools
demonstrate one of the great lies in our society. They in fact are recieving more real dollars per student than at
any other time in this country's history. Yet they cry for more money? Teachers deserve a fair wage, beyaond a
doubt. But what about all the other dollars, where are they going and why? Why can't our schools educate the
students? Why do we persist in believing that if we throw more money at it, the problems will go away? Schools
sports are an area I am pretty negative about right now. Athletics get a lion's share while fine arts and academics
are forced to make do.
Welfare and the environment can be addressed elsewhere. I'll only comment that both
issues have been so politicised and distorted as to be worthless. What is suppossed to be helped isn't and our
money is being spent to build empires rather than to protect the people. Neither party gives a damn about you or me,
the only care about perpetuating their own cause and denigrating their opponents.
To compel a man to subsidize with his taxes the propagation of ideas which he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical.
Thomas Jefferson
We agree about everything
regarding the parties and politicians in general but disagree about whether there is a relevant and crucial
difference between Bush and Kerry for voting purposes at this time, apparently. That's still a big difference at
this moment. I'd like people to get out and vote Bush away first. Then somebody can bring in Powell, Nader,
Hillary, some radio shock jock, or anybody else they want. Well, maybe not Rumsfeld, the current VP or Ditka!
We'll never have a great president again, until one comes along who has enough courage to be outside the
"bought and paid for" system.
DrSmellThis (creator of P H E R O S)
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