Presidential Candidates in Debate

[deepblue]

I listened to the first of the debates between Kerry and Bush yesterday. I thought both Kerry and Bush

presented fairly well.

I suppose it depends on who you are partial to already but after you watch or listen

to the debates post who you think is doing a better job making their arguments.

NPR is great:


http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?sto

ryId=4055740

It is a side question but which of the candidates do you believe is using pheromones?

[Holmes]

Bush, for one.

On that

note,

Interesting

piece on the body language we witnessed duing the debate.

[SweetBrenda]

Phermones or not

I have a thing for Bush ... But I also had a thing for

Clinton too! I think I just like guys in suits. Heh!

[a.k.a.]

[color=blue]Phermones or not I have a thing for Bush

...

Yup. I've got a thing for bush too... Ooops. I'm sorry. You meant George Bush.

Didn't you?

[Pancho1188]

...or you just like powerful

men like every other woman in the world...

...after all, who better to support you for the rest of your life

than the man who could bring 10 men in suits to take down a person who just looked at you the wrong way?

[DrSmellThis]

Bush got crushed. He should

get some -mones from Bruce for the next debate.

[belgareth]

Bush got

crushed.

I don't know that he got crushed but he did do pretty poorly. One comment I read implied that he

ran out of material and started repeating himself. That shows poor preperation. Pretty sad from somebody with the

resources he has to get prepared. Unfortunately, I was busy and didn'tsee it.

[Holmes]

Bush got

crushed.

He came off badly. Very badly.

[Holmes]

Phermones or not I have a thing for Bush

...

Idi Amin was pretty sexy, too.

[SweetBrenda]

Yup. I've got

a thing for bush too... Ooops. I'm sorry. You meant George Bush. Didn't you?

HAHAHAHAH okay

that was pretty good I can't deny that!.. It was an open Target! You Are

good...

[SweetBrenda]

I don't

know that he got crushed but he did do pretty poorly. One comment I read implied that he ran out of material and

started repeating himself. That shows poor preperation. Pretty sad from somebody with the resources he has to get

prepared. Unfortunately, I was busy and didn'tsee it.

I missed it too Bel. I was having a good

time in the Sauna and I forgot all about it! I was upset for missing it because I actually wanted to watch

it. Oh Well!... I know who I'm going for so...

[belgareth]

I missed it too Bel. I was having a good time in the Sauna and I forgot all

about it! I was upset for missing it because I actually wanted to watch it. Oh Well!... I know who I'm going for

so...

I was working; trying to catch up on things that aren't getting done in the office because

I am so busy in the field lately. Gods! I hate paperwork, especially government mandated paperwork that takes money

from me!

[DrSmellThis]

This reader mailbag struck me

as representative of the reactions I've seen on it.



http://msnbc.msn.com/id/6153466/site/newsweek/



Kerry was masterful and presidential by comparison. The debate ended mercifully for Bush, who was getting pummeled

by the end and lost the ability to defend himself. He kept endlessly repeating the same simplistic, semi-relevant

cliches; and was zoning out. He grimaced repeatedly in response to Kerry's on-target criticisms. His message came

across as hollow and impoverished. Carl Rove must have felt helpless. John McCain, prominent Republican and Bush

debate advisor, called the debate "John Kerry's brightest moment."

[Pancho1188]

Well, repeating yourself is

better than coming up with new material on the spot:

"What's the deal with Iraq? First of all, I'm still

trying to figure out what it is. Is this an ear rock or an eye rack? Is this someone exclaiming, "I rock!"? If

so, how did they know so long ago that it would catch on to mean that a person was cool? I don't understand it,

but if you vote for me, I promise you that these questions and more will be answered!"



That all said, I

think it's funny how a person's competency is judged by his ability to perform in front of millions of people.

How many scam artists have you seen persuade people but have no real ability to do anything besides put on a good

front and sell you something? How many 'Beautiful Minds' have you seen that couldn't do jack in front of a

television but could easily solve the world's greatest problems?

I'm not saying we'd be better off with a

genius with no public speaking skills, I'm just saying that I'm smart and could do a decent job at many

things...but you put me in front of 287 million people and tell me to give my views on foreign policy, I'm going to

make a mistake every once in a while. Life isn't a movie where Bush can repeat the line over and over again until

it sounds like Mel Gibson in Braveheart...but I guess you expect perfection from the most powerful man in the

world.

[a.k.a.]

I didn’t watch the debates because

it would have probably just pissed me off.
Hope I didn’t miss anything.
Did Kerry reveal his exit

strategy from Iraq?
Did Bush explain what he was going to do about the trade deficit?
Did either candidate

mention a plan for dealing with climate change or the new strain of avian flu virus?

Unfortunately I’m

old enough to remember when the League of Women Voters used to sponsor these things. Candidates had to face some

pretty tough questions and the audience wasn’t just another prop.
The current model is just a forum for Dems

and Republicans to trade off pre-rehearsed soundbites.

Anyway I’d be very surprised if Kerry didn’t score

better than Bush.

[Holmes]

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/6146353/

[a.k.a.]

Thanks Holmes. Now I'm I'm good

and pissed.
<signing off to go meditate. "Aummmm....">

[DrSmellThis]

I believe the links in the

middle of this page have the whole debate ready for viewing.



http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITIC

S/10/01/debate.worldreax.ap/index.html

I don't think reading it makes it come across as well.

[SweetBrenda]

I believe the links in the middle of this page have the whole debate ready for

viewing.

http://www.cnn

.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/10/01/debate.worldreax.ap/index.html



I don't think reading it makes it come across as

well.

hey! Doc thanks for the links!!!

[SweetBrenda]

I didn’t watch

the debates because it would have probably just pissed me off.
Hope I didn’t miss anything.
Did Kerry

reveal his exit strategy from Iraq?
Did Bush explain what he was going to do about the trade deficit?
Did

either candidate mention a plan for dealing with climate change or the new strain of avian flu virus?



Unfortunately I’m old enough to remember when the League of Women Voters used to sponsor these things. Candidates

had to face some pretty tough questions and the audience wasn’t just another prop.
The current model is just a

forum for Dems and Republicans to trade off pre-rehearsed soundbites.

Anyway I’d be very surprised if Kerry

didn’t score better than Bush.

So are you voting?

[DrSmellThis]

I didn’t watch

the debates because it would have probably just pissed me off.
Hope I didn’t miss anything.
Did Kerry reveal his

exit strategy from Iraq?
Did Bush explain what he was going to do about the trade deficit?
Did either candidate

mention a plan for dealing with climate change or the new strain of avian flu virus?

Unfortunately I’m old

enough to remember when the League of Women Voters used to sponsor these things. Candidates had to face some pretty

tough questions and the audience wasn’t just another prop.
The current model is just a forum for Dems and

Republicans to trade off pre-rehearsed soundbites.

Anyway I’d be very surprised if Kerry didn’t score better

than Bush.

* The debate was mostly about Iraq and the war on terror. domestic policy is next, I guess.

*

It sounded less rehearsed than I anticipated, thankfully. We need more debates, and longer ones, IMHO. People are

starving for substance.

* I thought Kerry gave an appropriately general exit strategy, allowing for variations

in progress in security; diplomatic initiatives; reinforcement and shifting of focus on the ground (e.g., away from

just protecting oil sites), and transition to international support. He made it clear America has no long term

designs on Iraq. His plan was way more detailed than Bush's, and he often confronted Bush about having no plan

there.

[deepblue]

Just in case it wasn't noticed

the first time I put a link up to the NPR web site that has recordings of the whole speach plus commentary and parts

of the whole speach. NPR kicks ass.



http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?s

toryId=4055740

The details of the Kerry exit plan are up on his web site from what I listened to.

[a.k.a.]

Thanks Holmes. Now

I'm I'm good and pissed.
<signing off to go meditate. "Aummmm....">

OK. I feel better

now.
Actualy Kerry did quite well on nuclear non-proliferation. Good job.
But I guess I was hoping for a

replay of a much more forceful response to an unjust and unnecessary war:
Reporter: "How would YOU suggest we

get US troops out of Vietnam?"
Young Idealistic John Kerry: "On ships."


And, yes, I do plan to vote.

[DrSmellThis]

This amateur analysis from the

Newsweek "reader mailbag" recalled one particularly dominant moment:

"The pivotal exchange was triggered by

Bush saying we went to war to punish our attackers. Kerry nailed him on the fact that Osama bin Laden attacked us

... Bush compounded his mistake with a retort that was straight from Will Ferrell of 'Saturday Night Live': 'I

know it was Osama bin Laden!'"

Priceless.

[deepblue]

I think the debate went well

for Kerry. He came off Presidential and more than that, he is simply right. If he can do that or better for two more

rounds I thinik he is headed for the whitehouse.
One area I thought could have been nailed down

a little more was the human cost of Iraq. Kerry offered a figure on the death toll, but nothing on the number with

permanent injuries. I'm just knit picking though.

[a.k.a.]

One area I thought

could have been nailed down a little more was the human cost of Iraq. Kerry offered a figure on the death toll, but

nothing on the number with permanent injuries. I'm just knit picking though.

There are so many

ways Kerry could have been stronger on Iraq, but his position is too close to Bush’s for him to offer anything more

than nuance.
“I am going to lead those troops to victory.” Is not an exit strategy.
He blames

Bush for misleading the American people, which is true. But then he also says his message to the troops is “Help is

on the way.” As an example of this so-called help he offers us the dream of a summit which is supposed to bring more

of our “allies” into the conflict.

Once upon a time John Kerry used to be clear headed and to the

point. But when you spend the better part of your career compromising your principles, your mind starts getting

muddled up with rationalizations. The more intelligent you are, the more convincing your rationalizations sound. But

Kerry’s position on Iraq is still a muddle and the Bush camp is going to get as much milage off of this weakness as

they can.

[einstein]

I like the body language

article. PBS talked to some bodylanguage people after the debate, and they didn't touch on any of the points of

that article. They were criticizing Bush for leaning on the podium and praising him for addressing the camera. And

praising Kerry for looking confident and presidential but criticizing him for talking to Lehrer instead of to the

American people.

And I saw on some useless celebrity news show abotu the Wives being dressed almost identically

in Oscar de larenta. You can even see heinz-kerry point to thier outfits when they greet each other at the end of

the debate. That was pretty funny.

I personally think 90 minutes is too long for foreign policy. Maybe if it

was all of foreign policy, but this was almost entirely Iraq. And there isn't 90 minutes of substantive Iraq.


BTW, Kerry wouldn't go into Iraq without the UN but wants bilateral talks with N. Korea???

[DrSmellThis]

I wondered about that at first

too, but the bilateral talks thing was misportrayed by Bush as Kerry chasing away China's and other neighboring

countries' pressure on N. Korea. I wish Kerry would have explained it better. If I understood it correctly, he's

not subtracting anything -- he's adding talks with N. Korea. Every country should be talking with Korea.

There should be a multilateral non-proliferation summit over there too. But Bush is an advocate of "my way or the

highway" approaches to "diplomacy" as opposed to talks, even if they involve more than one country. But that is

not the way people and relationships work. Intensive diplomacy involving actual discussion is what most often

produces results, not just threats and punitive pressure. Bush tends to make last resorts be first. You very quickly

run out of trump cards when you play your hand that way. We don't have enough military resources to take over too

many (if any) more countries.

I do understand some people losing interest if they don't like politics, but

ninety minutes was not enough to scratch the surface in Iraq or any other kind of foreign policy. Americans too

often base their knowledge on sound bites, innuendo and rumor. Debates don't solve that problem, (and they can even

perpetuate it, depending on the debate) but at least they're potentially more substantive than most media

presentations of the issues; and get people thinking.

[DrSmellThis]

http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/10/02/bush.

ap/index.html

Does this type of political rhetoric strike anyone else as prepubescent garbage, on so many

levels? Could anyone really be gullible enough to swallow this verbal Ipecac?

[Elk Dreamer]

Kerry was the

better student at Yale. He is a seasoned warrior, leader, a articulate Senator with a solid experience base in world

affairs. He appears more presidential because he is more presidential. George W. Bush is a pampered C student who

really hasn't matured beyond the big man on campus syndrome. If he gets beyond a sound bite in thought or word he

fades into simple non verbal facial gestures, tics ,and contemptuous sneers that remind me of the Alfred E. Newman

character in MAD Magazine. If he was working for a living he would have been fired long ago. I doubt it if he could

make it to the first level of application for Trump's Apprentice Program.
Turn the sound off on your TV and

watch the non-verbal language it is very revealing.

Elk