Misbehavin'

[DrSmellThis]

Fellow forum members,

friends, and surfers (Damn, that sounds political!):

I've been contributing to this forum for a few years now,

and have noticed a lot more maltreatment, insensitivity, pettiness, necessary post deletions; trolling,

name-calling, bannings, bullying, and underhandedness on the forum in recent times (well before the switch as well).

I am just getting around to saying something I could have a while back. I believe the forum used to have a bit

higher quality conversations, personal interrelations, and information; and feel disappointed in the way the trend

has developed. There is of course still a lot of first rate stuff, but it is less frequent, IMHO. I am not the only

one who has noticed this.

Please pitch in to help the above things improve a bit. My sincere hope and request is

that folks will take a private look in the mirror at their wonderful selves and make any necessary adjustments (and

not just shaving their unibrows) based on whatever they learn. Hopefully, good sense will quickly prevail, and the

forum will return to the outstanding board it once was, only better! It is still a great site!

Here is the

obligatory, "wimpy disclaimer paragraph for sensitive, litigious types." Those with thick skin and no lawyer can

skip it! I'm not pointing fingers. Hey, feel free to assume it doesn't apply at all to you personally,

in fact, if you are inclined to take things personally! This is not about any one side of any dispute; or any one

group, philosophy, or politics, but is a general observation. I'd just prefer things would improve in general for

all of us. None of this implies that I personally am above criticism in this regard (I remain open to feedback), or

that I am complaining in particular about anything anyone said to me personally. I'm not the begrudging type

(Think: Retriever. Well, not that nice. Maybe Schnauser.). If I'm being "too serious" or "naive"; because "the web

is the web and people are people", or something, then OK I am. Lastly, of course I know no one died and made me the

judge of good quality. But I play a judge on TV, and do know things used to be different. Overall there is a ton of

good stuff in here. Whew, being nice is too much hard work! Let's just forget the whole thing! Just kidding.



Thanks in advance for listening.

[Bruce]

Doc et al,
Probably by "industry

standards" we are one big warm fuzzy family, but yeah, there is always plenty of room to improve, and as forum

admin, I would love to hear as many peoples' "2 cents" as possible. If you would feel more comfortable doing that

privately, feel free to PM or email me or any of the other forum moderators.
Best Regards,
Bruce

[Ash]

I've been having a difficult time

understanding some of your posts this weekend Doc. Let me see if I've got this one right. YOU want to be able to

say anything YOU want to say without being challenged. Because if YOUR challenged then YOUR speech rights are being

infringed upon. Does that pretty much sum it up? No? Go back and read some of your past posts and do some

introspective work on your own self. When I read a post I also read the name of the poster. When I read your posts

on subjects political I read words coming from a man that doesn't like to be challenged but he hasn't got the

balls to do anything about it up front so he starts a Thread on a topic that's kinda, sorta related and very

transparent.

This Forum, or any Forum for that matter, is a microcosm of the world we live in Doc. Reading your

past posts it's obvious to me that you would like the world to be one great big "Can't we all just get

along...kumbaya, politically correct" place, and that would be wonderful ! It could happen too if everybody thought

like you Doc but everybody doesn't think like you. Sadly for you there are people that think like me. Get used to

it Doc! Or start up a totalitarian state where you can put the unwashed, un-politically correct people like me

away.

I've not been here as long as you Doc. Just at a year for me now. I haven't seen any changes in the way

people interact since I've been here. Old Forum or New. Occasionally people write stupid things and occasionally

people write insensitive things and when they do somebody usually jumps on them. If they have a valid argument they

come back with a valid response. If they don't they usually run and hide only to return in another Thread with some

other stupid or insensitive comment. I make my share of both and I make apologies when necessary. I've grown a lot

in the year I've been here. It's the exchange of ideas and the input from other members that helps me grow. CJ is

always helping me out with my political incorrectness and one of these days I'm sure some of her feedback will

stick. Others, like SRH, don't have to say anything to me directly to help me grow. I just have to read their

words.

The ugly Cortisol hour is now upon me so I'll end with this. We have a "Rep" system now Doc. Some of us

have it turned on. We also have PM's and SMS's and lots of people willing to express their ideas without the use

of calumny or duplicity.

[belgareth]

I've been posting to the forum for a couple years now. Before registering I spent weeks lurking and

reading posts. There has been an ebb and flow to the quality of the posts as well as to the attitudes. Right now I’d

say that the quality of posts is down, some of the best contributors have stopped posting. Also, cattiness and

verbal abuse are up. It seems to go that way, as attitudes get bad, the serious posters go away.





I'll grant Ash's statement that this is to some degree a microcosm of the

real world but there are many segments of the real world. What would be tolerated or even commonplace in one

segement of society is unheard of in another. The idea that this is a public place and we should just accept all

aspects of human behavior within this forum is absurd.



Every

person should be able to post here without fear of being personally attacked for being lame or verbally abused

because their opinion is different than someone else's. That isn't to say we shouldn't disagree, the whole idea

is to discuss and debate while having fun. When a newbie sees how another newbie or even a long time member was

attacked personally it makes them less likely to post. How many good contributors and contributions have we missed

because a person didn’t want to be publicly humiliated? I see serious posts, often daily, that are, IMO, dumb,

arrogant and outright pointless. Should I, in my infinite wisdom, be free to flame each one of them because they

disagree with me or because I thought they were lame? Should I be able to take your serious post and drag it off

track with jokes and off-color remarks and completely eliminate the possibility of a useful

response?



This is one of, if not the best, forum going. There

are a lot of bright, funny people on it sharing experiences in one of the most confusing and uncertain areas of our

daily lives. I have learned an incredible amount from you people and would like to see it continue to be a high

quality place to visit. It can only remain that way if we all adhere to some basic rules that should be obvious to

all.

[jose]

When a forum member PM's me and says

"No one likes me here." there's something wrong with this place. Now I'm all for debates, discussions and helping

your fellow Phero users(and sometimes we stray off topics), but verbal abuse and making someone feel small should

not be tolerated in the forums. This used to be such a great place to visit.

[Elana]

If annoys you, just use the ignore

feature. It works like a charm.

[belgareth]

If annoys you,

just use the ignore feature. It works like a charm.

The ignore function doesn't help in the forums,

only PMs.

[Elana]

That's not true. If you put

someone on ignore, you don't see their posts either. It's glorious

[belgareth]

That's not true.

If you put someone on ignore, you don't see their posts either. It's glorious

It still doesn't

eliminate them from being verbally abusive, it only hides it. Everybody else sees it.

[Elana]

If someone is annoying you, put

them on ignore so you won't have to read their dumb posts and you won't respond to what you can't read.

[belgareth]

If someone is

annoying you, put them on ignore so you won't have to read their dumb posts and you won't respond to what you

can't read.

That's fine but it doesn't reduce the crappy way some of us treat others nor does it

justify it. Whether you put somebody on ignore or not is irrelevent, they are still spreading their attitude problem

throughout an otherwise good place.

[jose]

If someone is annoying

you, put them on ignore so you won't have to read their dumb posts and you won't respond to what you can't

read.

But why does it have to come to that point of ignoring someone? Pretty soon(if it's not

already) those stupid comments will be condoned, then you'll have more people doing it because of the other guy.

That's how flame board arguments start.

[Elana]

Huh? If I don't want to read a

certain posters posts, I will put them on ignore. That is my choice. It shouldn't concern anyone else.

[jose]

Huh? If I don't want to

read a certain posters posts, I will put them on ignore. That is my choice. It shouldn't concern anyone

else.

I'm talking about everyone not you personally. Why does it have come to that point? You

may wish to ignore the poster, but his rude attitude is still out there and exposed to other posters.

[Elana]

Don't know what to tell ya. This

is a public forum and you get lots of different people with lots of different ideas and opinions and it will never

be a ball of sunshine, love fest everyone hugging and kissing each other. If you have ever been to other forums you

will note that this forum is WAY MORE flame free than others.

[belgareth]

I'm talking about

everyone not you personally. Why does it have come to that point? You may wish to ignore the poster, but his rude

attitude is still out there and exposed to other posters.

Exactly! And if it is percieved as being condoned

it will continue and worsen.

[jose]

Don't know what to tell

ya. This is a public forum and you get lots of different people with lots of different ideas and opinions and it

will never be a ball of sunshine, love fest everyone hugging and kissing each other. If you have ever been to other

forums you will note that this forum is WAY MORE flame free than others.

I see your point Elana, but

let's just not let it get out of hand around here.

[Elana]

All I can say is....if Tounge and I

can make peace....anything is possible.

[oscar]

Don't know what to tell ya. This is a public forum and you get lots of different people with lots of

different ideas and opinions and it will never be a ball of sunshine, love fest everyone hugging and kissing each

other. If you have ever been to other forums you will note that this forum is WAY MORE flame free than

others.

Elana,

I DO know what to tell ya. First of all you're mistaken about this being a "public

forum". It is a private forum, access to which is open to members of the public who are willing to comply with

certain guidelines not the least of which are displaying civility to ALL their fellow posters and posting only

material that is pertinent to the forum in which it appears.

To ALL,

As a member of this board since July

2001 and a reader of it for several months prior I can say that the changes in the forum that I've witnessed over

nearly three years have been fairly drastic, and very few of them have been positive.

This is a forum about

pheromones, and the forum headings that can be found below the forum titles outline the content of what is supposed

to be posted there. I've seen the forum become virtually a "chat room" once, and even after another forum was

created for such non-pheromone discussion the off topic banter has continued to pollute the forums that should

remain devoted to specific ranges of topics.

There is no reason that a moderator's time should be spent

deleting off topic posts from the pheromone forums when there are areas of the board where there are no limits on

the topics posted.

I'm sick and tired of it. I agree wholeheartedly with the Doc's, bel's, jose's, and

others' feelings that those of us who are in a position to do so should make every effort to take this forum back

to where it was when it was an informative source of pheromone information.

Just the hijacking efforts on this

thread alone delayed my posting for nearly 10 minutes as I deleted off topic posts.
I wonder how many more we'll

have to delete to get the message across?

There are places to post relevant material and there are places to

play.
They are clearly marked and those markings should be heeded by all.

Oscar

[Pancho1188]

Elana,

I DO

know what to tell ya. First of all you're mistaken about this being a "public forum". It is a private forum, access

to which is open to members of the public who are willing to comply with certain guidelines not the least of which

are displaying civility to ALL their fellow posters and posting only material that is pertinent to the forum in

which it appears.

As a member of this board since July 2001 and a reader of it for several months prior I can

say that the changes in the forum that I've witnessed over nearly three years have been fairly drastic, and very

few of them have been positive.

This is a forum about pheromones, and the forum headings that can be found

below the forum titles outline the content of what is supposed to be posted there. I've seen the forum become

virtually a "chat room" once, and even after another forum was created for such non-pheromone discussion the off

topic banter has continued to pollute the forums that should remain devoted to specific ranges of topics.

There

is no reason that a moderator's time should be spent deleting off topic posts from the pheromone forums when there

are areas of the board where there are no limits on the topics posted.

I'm sick and tired of it. I agree

wholeheartedly with the Doc's, bel's, jose's, and others' feelings that those of us who are in a position to do

so should make every effort to take this forum back to where it was when it was an informative source of pheromone

information.

Just the hijacking efforts on this thread alone delayed my posting for nearly 10 minutes as I

deleted off topic posts.
I wonder how many more we'll have to delete to get the message across?

There are

places to post relevant material and there are places to play.
They are clearly marked and those markings should

be heeded by all.

Oscar

Point taken...

...so now you raise a question regarding the new format...you

can click on "new posts" to get the latest posts by forum members. This displays the newest posts...regardless of

which forum it's on...so assuming that you only check out the posts and don't notice what forum it's on, how

do you keep on topic and off topic separate? In the old forum, the differences were distinct and people just

disregarded it if they could make a joke (I'm guilty).

However, now with the "new posts" option, I don't even

know what forum I'm in half the time...and the topics vary so much and there's some pheromone and some

non-pheromone stuff that I can't tell the difference. Descriptive titles help, as you could tell a pheromone post

by something like "SOE Advice" and a non-one by something like "Memoirs of the Incredibly Stupid", but I find that

the lines blur when someone makes a pheromone comment, which leads to a non-pheromone comment, which leads to a joke

that may or may not be pheromone related, which leads to a hijacking, which leads to a post that requires movement

to a different forum, which wastes moderators' time.

Since I am guilty of this more than anyone, I wanted to

point this out for future reference.

I honestly believe that having both the pheromone and non-pheromone stuff

has kept a lot of people on here longer than they would've normally...although it's also kept people from being on

here as long as they might've...but speaking from personal experience, Bruce has made a lot more money off of me

because I might've just bought the newbie pack and dismissed this stuff as "snake oil" had it not been that this

forum existed and kept me on it.

I don't know what that last thought was supposed to say since any intelligent

person would say, "That's why we have separate forums," but I thought I'd just throw it in there. I hope by

pointing this "new post" matter out, it can help moderators by realizing a potential problem that mixes pheromone

and non-pheromone discussions. In essence, it is just a chat room...a chat room with the occasional -mones

questions. I think the place would be a lot quieter with only -mone related topics (i.e. I've seen all I really

need for what I have...what else can someone tell me regarding AE, TE, SOE, and WAGG that will help me anymore than

if I just experimented by myself?), but if that's the way it's supposed to be, so be it. Someone should write a

code of conduct or something because the impression that I got when I first came here was that it was fun to joke

around and it kept people on the forum having a good time until people had more -mone related questions. Now my

posts are being deleted left and right...not that I've had many -mone related posts in a while (I wear TE and SOE

every day, but I haven't had any "OMGIWANTYOURIGHTNOW" moments to write about)...

That, of course, is when

people started getting nasty to others from what started as simple jokes or ideas, so I guess it has its potential

problems.







I apologize for the following joke that I was making in reference to Adam Sandler's

skit and making fun of the "$1.25" I was giving...I didn't mean for it to be referring to anyone else besides

myself:

I don't know. That's just my $1.25...

Again, I hope nobody took it as an

attack on anyone. If they did, I apologize.

[belgareth]

Point

taken...

...so now you raise a question regarding the new format...you can click on "new posts" to get the

latest posts by forum members. This displays the newest posts...regardless of which forum it's on...so

assuming that you only check out the posts and don't notice what forum it's on, how do you keep on topic and off

topic separate? In the old forum, the differences were distinct and people just disregarded it if they could make a

joke (I'm guilty).

However, now with the "new posts" option, I don't even know what forum I'm in half the

time...and the topics vary so much and there's some pheromone and some non-pheromone stuff that I can't tell the

difference. Descriptive titles help, as you could tell a pheromone post by something like "SOE Advice" and a non-one

by something like "Memoirs of the Incredibly Stupid", but I find that the lines blur when someone makes a pheromone

comment, which leads to a non-pheromone comment, which leads to a joke that may or may not be pheromone related,

which leads to a hijacking, which leads to a post that requires movement to a different forum, which wastes

moderators' time.

Since I am guilty of this more than anyone, I wanted to point this out for future

reference.

I honestly believe that having both the pheromone and non-pheromone stuff has kept a lot of people on

here longer than they would've normally...although it's also kept people from being on here as long as they

might've...but speaking from personal experience, Bruce has made a lot more money off of me because I might've

just bought the newbie pack and dismissed this stuff as "snake oil" had it not been that this forum existed and kept

me on it.

I don't know what that last thought was supposed to say since any intelligent person would say,

"That's why we have separate forums," but I thought I'd just throw it in there. I hope by pointing this "new post"

matter out, it can help moderators by realizing a potential problem that mixes pheromone and non-pheromone

discussions. In essence, it is just a chat room...a chat room with the occasional -mones questions. I think the

place would be a lot quieter with only -mone related topics (i.e. I've seen all I really need for what I

have...what else can someone tell me regarding AE, TE, SOE, and WAGG that will help me anymore than if I just

experimented by myself?), but if that's the way it's supposed to be, so be it. Someone should write a code of

conduct or something because the impression that I got when I first came here was that it was fun to joke around and

it kept people on the forum having a good time until people had more -mone related questions. Now my posts are being

deleted left and right...not that I've had many -mone related posts in a while (I wear TE and SOE every day, but I

haven't had any "OMGIWANTYOURIGHTNOW" moments to write about)...

That, of course, is when people started

getting nasty to others from what started as simple jokes or ideas, so I guess it has its potential problems.

I

don't know. That's just my $1.25 (Isn't that the same price your mother charges for a--------well, you know the

rest, Tollbooth Willy).

Panco,

Points well taken, thanks for the constructive input.

Wouldn't

the problem you described be greatly reduced if we all would cooperate and use the forums as intended? Bruce created

the Open discussion and humor forums so people would have a place to play between serious posts. He was hoping we

would all use it as intended.

As for the being rude and nasty to each other, there is no reason to allow it

anywhere on the forum. The biggest problem is where to draw the line. If we want to be politically correct 100% of

the time on all the forums, it will be a very boring place to be. But the schoolyard crap of ganging up on somebody

just because some clique has decided they don't like that person is intolerable.

[Pancho1188]

Panco,



Points well taken, thanks for the constructive input.

Wouldn't the problem you described be greatly reduced

if we all would cooperate and use the forums as intended? Bruce created the Open discussion and humor forums so

people would have a place to play between serious posts. He was hoping we would all use it as intended.

As for

the being rude and nasty to each other, there is no reason to allow it anywhere on the forum. The biggest problem is

where to draw the line. If we want to be politically correct 100% of the time on all the forums, it will be a very

boring place to be. But the schoolyard crap of ganging up on somebody just because some clique has decided they

don't like that person is intolerable.

Well, the two solutions I'd think of for myself would be to post

a new thread every time I wanted to make a pun or friendly joke about something...or to be given the option of

choosing which forum I'd like my reply to be posted to when I submit a reply (in other words, reply to a post in

the phero forum but then choose an option that posts it in the Humor or Open Discussion areas because I know it's

off topic and I'd basically be doing the moderators' monotonous, tedious tasks of moving things from on topic to

off topic forums).

It's just a lot easier to hit "reply" than to switch forums, post a new thread, and name it,

"RE: Something funny about what _______ said about _____"

Or I could just quit being a smartass and shut up.



That could work, too...

[franki]

Frankly, I don't really see what

the problem is. I agree the quality of the posts has gone down, but that's because we don't see many

(semi-)scientific debates on here anymore.

But I don't think that is because Pancho, Elana or I are making

frivolous posts...

[franki]

My Question: Where are the people

making informative posts about pheromones? All I read nowadays are ("stupid") newbie posts.. or reports from people

I can hardly take serious..

No wonder people are trying to have a little fun here and there, otherwise it would

get very boring..

[Elana]

When someone comes on the forum and

asks a question, he is usually answered with a serious response. There is only a number of times you can tell

someone the difference between a drop and a dab. But for the most part people ask questions and get answers here.

[oscar]

Pancho,

The

"New Posts" feature lists the forums in which the new posts appear on the right side of the window.

Oscar

[oscar]

Elana,

The

entirety of my post above was not meant to be aimed solely at you, and I've amended it to clear up that possible

misinterpretation.

Oscar

[Elana]

Peace, Oscar...I'll do the same

[Pancho1188]

Pancho,

The

"New Posts" feature lists the forums in which the new posts appear on the right side of the window.

Oscar

I've noticed this...I think what I was saying is that I don't pay attention to it...maybe they should

break up the "new posts" area by section so it's more clear that you'd like for people to keep the type of posts

separate by different forums.

This would just be a technicality, though. I've gotten into the mentality with

the "new posts" option to treat all of the threads equally...like I can post whatever I want wherever I want. Maybe

keeping the forums distinct would keep their...distinctness...ummm...did I just say the same thing twice? What

I'm trying to say is mixing them up makes them prone to overlap. If you've noticed more irrelevant postings in

the phero area, maybe (I couldn't be sure) it's partly attributed to that.


My Idea:

New Posts



Phero Discussion
"Newbie with SOE Question"
"Newbie with TE Question"
"How do I use AE to get my best

friend to want me sexually?"
"Do pheromones go to Pancho's head? If so, how?"

Off Topic
"I am

Cool"
"Everybody Loves Elana"
"Friends Sucks"
"Memoirs of the Incredibly Intelligent"
"Friends Rules"



Women's Forum
"Why are guys so stupid? Part II"
"How do I use PCC to get a man?"
"Why are guys so

dumb?"
"How does AE/w Smell?"
"Why are guys so stupid? Part I"


It would keep your perspective that forums

are different and must be treated differently...but that's just from my perspective because of how I see the "New

Posts" option.

[Bruce]

Folks,

Several

points:

1. Keep the feedback coming. I would like to come up with a long overdue policy statement. For the

most part I think the long-time folks "get it" very well already, but an official statement might help new folks

feel more secure. Anyway, now is the time to "bring it on"; call it an amnesty period or whatever. Nobody is going

to get banned for what they say in this thread, nor should anyone feel like they will get roasted by other members

in a PM for it either. So everybody, take a deep breath, blow out your 2 cents, and give the mods and I a little

time to formulate the "rules".

2. OK, that leads nicely into the fact that Oscar brought up. Like it or

not, the forum is indeed private. It is my living room. If someone comes into your home, starts jumping up and

down on the sofa shouting "(insert your name here) is an asshole", you are going to show him/her the door or call

the cops. On the other hand, it is not a prison. You are all guests in my home, and for various reasons, not

entirely commercial I LIKE having you here, UNLESS, you make things unpleasent for other people. I would rather

have 2 members who get along rather than 10 memebers, 8 of whom have formed a group of their own and decided for

reasons of their own that they want the other 2 burned at the stake.

3. There is a big difference between

throwing in a little "comic relief" and hijacking a serious thread. "Little" as in a single brief post.

Unfortunately, that often if not almost always leads to a long stream of banter that is very entertaining for those

folks who don't give a damn about the person (often a newbie) who started the thread and his/her interest in

pheromones or anyone else who comes here mainly to learn about pheromones. *That* is jumping up and down on my

sofa, and if my entertaining that sentiment makes me an asshole in your mind, then it is time for you to

leave.

4. As has been oft pointed out, the "Off Topic" area was created as an alternative to banning large

numbers of folks who come here primarily for reasons other than learning about pheromones or helping others learn

about them. If there is some technical problem with the current forum application that makes it difficult to tell

which forum is which, well, then we need to fix that. Wise ass comments "among friends" clearly have their place,

but not in the middle of a serious discussion about pheromones and certainly not in one discussing the furture of

the forum. I rarely if ever even look in the "Off Topic" area. It is an outlaw area in my mind. As long as it

doesn't serve as a base of operations for the destruction of the rest of the forum, knock yourself out. I do look

in the Humor section hoping to have a giggle and if I happen to be eating my lunch at the time and run into

something so disgusting/disturbing that I lose my appetite, it is going to get deleted. If you have a problem with

that, then, hey, just move on. The door is quite literaly over there. It is my home. I live here. I sleep here.

I take my meals here. Yada yada, you get the idea, but for some reason I don't think I have ever gotten an email

from a banned member who felt like I had the right to regulate the forum in any way.

Bruce