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Thread: Misbehavin'

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pancho1188

    New

    Posts

    Phero Discussion
    "Newbie with SOE Question"
    "Newbie with TE Question"
    "How do I use AE to

    get my best friend to want me sexually?"
    "Do pheromones go to Pancho's head? If so, how?"
    This is

    exactly the problem. The only posts we ever read on the pheromone forum are newbie posts. While helping out a newbie

    every now and then is OK and can be fun, at this point in time it gets boring because there no interesting pheromone

    threads anymore..

  2. #32
    Administrator Bruce's Avatar
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    Franki,

    Who would have the

    courage to stand up and post an "interesting pheromone thread" if they knew they were almost certain to get laughed

    at or worse if they fell short of the mark? Would you? Of course not. Only a newbie who has yet to learn what

    happens to those who dare to ask a serious question and don't quite meet the standards.

    Bruce

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce
    Franki,

    Who

    would have the courage to stand up and post an "interesting pheromone thread" if they knew they were almost certain

    to get laughed at or worse if they fell short of the mark? Would you? Of course not. Only a newbie who has yet to

    learn what happens to those who dare to ask a serious question and don't quite meet the standards.



    Bruce
    Bruce has a point. The last time I asked an interesting question, and I'll be the first to admit

    it's been a long time, my thread was hijacked and we didn't really get to cover the topic. I remember remarking

    to someone that "you can't be serious on this forum unless you want to get criticized and humiliated"...which is

    actually what fueled my "Memoirs" postings because I wanted to be real and serious without worrying about being

    ridiculed.

    Yeah, I'd have to say that Bruce has got me and everyone else on that one.

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    You guys are probably right. I I

    look on the pheromone forum now, and scroll down to the first somewhat interesting thread I see: "Good Looks and

    Mones", I also see that one (for some reason) ended up in a pissing contest..

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by franki
    You guys are

    probably right. I I look on the pheromone forum now, and scroll down to the first somewhat interesting thread I see:

    "Good Looks and Mones", I also see that one (for some reason) ended up in a pissing contest..
    Exactly

    right and that's what we want to stop.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pancho1188
    Bruce has a

    point. The last time I asked an interesting question, and I'll be the first to admit it's been a long time, my

    thread was hijacked and we didn't really get to cover the topic. I remember remarking to someone that "you can't

    be serious on this forum unless you want to get criticized and humiliated"...which is actually what fueled my

    "Memoirs" postings because I wanted to be real and serious without worrying about being ridiculed.

    Yeah, I'd

    have to say that Bruce has got me and everyone else on that one.
    I have an example to support the mods and

    Bruce's claims even further with my "Memoirs" example. Now, even though it may be comparing apples and oranges

    (pheros vs. non-pheros), but I expected to get a lot of negative feedback when I posted that stuff. Somehow,

    though, no one did. However, an innocent joke by Elana led to comments by other people, which further led to

    mocking...now, had I not had my rule of not responding to things, it may have led to an argument/insult exchange.

    Imagine a newbie being mocked (I am thinking about Carlos as an example). When he thought he was being attacked, he

    got defensive and a "fight" almost broke out...

    As much as I represent the antithesis of this argument because

    of my banter, I would have to agree with Bruce and the moderators...so help me and my future forum activity.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce
    Franki,

    Who

    would have the courage to stand up and post an "interesting pheromone thread" if they knew they were almost certain

    to get laughed at or worse if they fell short of the mark? Would you? Of course not. Only a newbie who has yet to

    learn what happens to those who dare to ask a serious question and don't quite meet the standards.



    Bruce
    Bruce, I like the way Bobby from Bdc Concepts participates on the forum and gives a bit of inside on

    the philosophy behind their pheromone product. We could use more of stuff like that to make it a real (interesting)

    pheromone forum, instead of a newbie forum. Where are the makers of WAGG and Chikara? Maybe we need a place where

    one can easily find all news articles about phero's in the media.

    Just some feedback from me..

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by franki
    Bruce, I like

    the way Bobby from Bdc Concepts participates on the forum and gives a bit of inside on the philosophy behind their

    pheromone product. We could use more of stuff like that to make it a real (interesting) pheromone forum, instead of

    a newbie forum. Where are the makers of WAGG and Chikara? Maybe we need a place where one can easily find all news

    articles about phero's in the media.

    Just some feedback from me..
    Do the 'inventors' do 'field

    tests'? If so, what were their results? Do they recommend dosages or combinations? That'd be cool to know.

  9. #39
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    Thanks for giving my points a good

    looking at. Between Oscar and I we must have deleted some 25 off topic posts in the Looks and Mones thread and

    still it was a lost cause. Carlos had some issues and took offence to some stuff that wasn't really meant to be

    racist, but yeah it could have been better without the snide remarks.

    And hey, Franki and Pancho, those are a

    couple of great thread ideas right there: "Do the inventors do field tests?" To be honest, a terribly embaressing

    one because very few do *scientific* studies, but an excellent (I'll say it again) excellent question worthy of a

    serious if albeit short ('cause there is embaressingly little to report).
    and
    "Where are the makers of these

    products?"
    Again, a little embaressing, but hey, extremely valid point. Certainly a far more worthy post than

    tittering in the shadows about another "newbie" post. BTW, have you noticed the number of people identifying their

    threads as "newbie questions"? It might as well say "Please don't laugh at me or roast me; just skip on over this

    one if you hate newbies" and that is kind of sad.

    As to where the makers are; a few of them make regular

    rounds keeping an eye out for questions they could answer.

    Bruce

  10. #40
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    Default My humble thoughts

    I know

    that I haven't been here all that long... especially compared to many of you, but when I first found this board

    this mob mentality... ridiculing and ignoring those that posted stupid or inane questions was already quite common

    place. I had lurked for a few weeks reading the forums, getting to know how things and members 'worked' around

    here. Not wanting to come off like a total dumbass, I spent most of my time on here doing my homework... reading all

    the current posts, as well as reading through the archives which told me everything I needed to know before I ever

    even applied mones for the first time. I totally understand that this place exists, because of Bruce and his great

    business sense.... he created the forums to discuss mones... and help those less experienced learn how to use them

    to their fullest advantage. Granted, it may get boring and seem quite mundane answering the same questions over and

    over, but I also feel that its a small price to pay. I know I don't have many of the answers to the questions

    asked, but I do step in and try to help whenever I possibly can. We all should, and we should consider it a

    privilege to be a part of such an open and free forum!!!

    That said..... I also find the mob mentality and

    personal attacks unaccepable! Voicing ones opinion is fine... and when one persons views are so wrong that everyone

    needs to voice their own opinions on just how wrong that one person is... well thats one thing... and the only time

    it should be accepted. One group of members, acting like a little gang of playground thugs, ganging up on another

    member just because one of the gang has a beef with them is unacceptable and shouln't be tollerated. And mean

    spirited personal attacks should NEVER be tollerated... period!!!

    I am probably just as guilty as Pancho with

    my smartass jokes.... I find it more enjoyable to read these posts and the forum as a whole when I can smile and

    laugh, and I try to bring that to my fellow members. I also know when to keep things serious and on topic.... I

    personally learned a long time ago not to argue about two subjects.... politics and religion.... they are both

    personal points of view and no matter how much you argue your point, it won't change mine... so I don't try to

    change yours. But many threads have probably been hijacked because of one of my smarttass comments, and even though

    that one comment was all I contributed to that thread, someones question or discussion probably didn't get answered

    or discussed the way it should have.... for that I appologize. It was all in fun, and from now on I will pay closer

    attention to where I post those kinds of things.

    I hope we can all come to a happy medium, work out all the

    little kinks, and move into a new age on the Love Scent Forums. I have met some pretty incredible people here

    (probably the whole reason I've stayed on the forum after learning how to use my mones) and I hope to meet many

    more now that Bruce has taken Love Scent to the next level.

    Bruce, thank you for inviting me into your home, and

    making me feel like one of the family.
    Eep Opp Ork Aah Aah...

  11. #41
    Doctor of Scentology DrSmellThis's Avatar
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    Thanks for the feedback, ash.

    You and I disagree about the value of "just everyone dogpile on the "fool"/"bitch"/whatever, call them abusive

    names, and/or take revenge behind their backs" approach. I don't think it's "lack of balls" as you say that keeps

    me from participating in that Jerry Springer BS. If I think I need to get in someone's face I do it. I honestly try

    to turn my reaction into helpful feedback for everyone if it seems to be a group issue; and be constructive,

    whether or not I succeed. I prefer that approach and will continue it. I'm not going to make it my problem if you

    don't understand it. My only responsibility there is to keep editing until I think the post is clear and makes

    sense, and I do spend a lot of time editing my stuff before I burden others with it. I think it's possible to have

    a forum without all that disrespect, that is still decidedly not PC. It used to be that way here, in

    fact. I'll own up to being too defensive when someone disagrees in a way that I believe is attacking,

    unconstructive, and irrational. I like respectful debate, and get unpleasant feelings when it's not. I work on that

    fault, and am well aware of it. You took my post personally and got very defensive too, which doesn't suprise me.

    It honestly wasn't aimed at you personally. But "if the shoe fits pick it up and wear it", as you apparently did.



    I knew very well the kinds of responses I was going to get here, but felt I needed to make the post anyway.

    That's as much of my balls as you get to enjoy right now, ash.

    Bruce made an important distinction about "a

    little bit of looseness and lightheartedness", which I support, versus thread hijacking, which is just

    disrespectful.

    I actually was only complaing about the disrespectful stuff, whether blunt or indirect. It

    boggles my mind that someone could read that as wanting to squash harmless fun. I agree that if talk were always

    about pheromones it would get boring. I don't see anyone being prevented from taking about whatever they want on

    Bruce's forum if done sensibly. That doesn't mean hijacking just to fuck with somebody is OK.
    DrSmellThis (creator of P H E R O S)

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pancho1188
    Imagine a

    newbie being mocked (I am thinking about Carlos as an example). When he thought he was being attacked, he got

    defensive and a "fight" almost broke out...
    No, Pancho, that was NOT what was going on with Carlos.

    While he was posting newbie questions out on the forums, he was simultaneously PM'ing the female members half to

    death, trying to get pics and personal information. This is a prime example (but certainly not the only one!) of the

    blind men and the elephant phenom. You didn't see that, so he was a poor little innocent being picked on by the big

    bad schoolyard bullies.

    Which brings me to the rest of my point. If the mods are going to act as censors, then

    this is going to be a very different kind of board than what I think you have in mind. I've seen posts I found

    personally offensive left up, but as was stated earlier, Oscar rips down whatever HE doesn't like. I'm not

    picking on Oscar in particular, but simply using an example already given here. I'm not even going to bother going

    into the details. It's just not worth it. It's up to me to decide what I will or won't read, what I will or

    won't take seriously, what does or doesn't amuse me at any given moment.

    The problem is that we're

    travelling on an assumption that the mods in general have some psychic ability to determine what is or is not

    offensive enough to your entire audience to delete, what is or is not an ordinary conversational flow. So, taking

    keyboard firmly in hand, they slice and dice, and then complain that they have done it?? Someone used the word

    "schoolyard". But I didn't see anyone use the word "schoolmarm".

    You could be reactive, or proactive. Did it

    ever occur to you guys that perhaps a better way to handle a general tone of conversation you may not favor might be

    to start some threads you do like? Present some real questions? Do some interesting experiments and studies and post

    your own reports? Discuss a paper you have read on the subject of pheromones? In other words, rather than taking a

    negative and punitive action - which generally only serves to annoy; take positive action intended to provide some

    positive leadership? I've only joined recently, but I did not find the place unfriendly. OTOH - I can spell fairly

    decently, and I wasn't trying to cyber with everyone on the board. (Which, BTW, became a joke on the public part of

    the forum that you probably didn't get because you were only a party to some of the backend exchanges with another

    poor "innocent".)

    I get what you're saying, Bruce. But when your friend comes over and maybe has a couple too

    many beers and gets a little loud, the usual course of action is to humor him a little while putting the coffee on,

    because you already know he's a good guy when he sobers up a little.

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce
    Thanks for giving my

    points a good looking at. Between Oscar and I we must have deleted some 25 off topic posts in the Looks and Mones

    thread and still it was a lost cause. Carlos had some issues and took offence to some stuff that wasn't really

    meant to be racist, but yeah it could have been better without the snide remarks.

    And hey, Franki and Pancho,

    those are a couple of great thread ideas right there: "Do the inventors do field tests?" To be honest, a terribly

    embaressing one because very few do *scientific* studies, but an excellent (I'll say it again) excellent question

    worthy of a serious if albeit short ('cause there is embaressingly little to report).
    and
    "Where are the makers

    of these products?"
    Again, a little embaressing, but hey, extremely valid point. Certainly a far more worthy post

    than tittering in the shadows about another "newbie" post. BTW, have you noticed the number of people identifying

    their threads as "newbie questions"? It might as well say "Please don't laugh at me or roast me; just skip on over

    this one if you hate newbies" and that is kind of sad.

    As to where the makers are; a few of them make regular

    rounds keeping an eye out for questions they could answer.

    Bruce
    I guess we should not forget that

    at one point we all where newbies here.
    So we should cut them a little slack, at the beginning i did not now much

    about phermones, and lot's of the regulars here helped me a great lot, and i am still learning stuff here everyday.



    As for bruce it statement i sure hope it will not end up like that for the newbies.

    But it will defanantly

    be more informative if we could get a report from the phermones makers it self, since these are the guys that

    invented the phermones, i would also like a sort of a report about TE/m, since that was one of my first product here

    i ever used, and since it's mostly used by newbies who first try phermones it would be benefitial for them

    aswell.




    DZorro,
    If it ain't broken don't fix it.

  14. #44
    Doctor of Scentology DrSmellThis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JustPeachy
    No, Pancho,

    that was NOT what was going on with Carlos. While he was posting newbie questions out on the forums, he was

    simultaneously PM'ing the female members half to death, trying to get pics and personal information. This is a

    prime example (but certainly not the only one!) of the blind men and the elephant phenom. You didn't see that, so

    he was a poor little innocent being picked on by the big bad schoolyard bullies.

    Which brings me to the rest of

    my point. If the mods are going to act as censors, then this is going to be a very different kind of board than what

    I think you have in mind. I've seen posts I found personally offensive left up, but as was stated earlier, Oscar

    rips down whatever HE doesn't like. I'm not picking on Oscar in particular, but simply using an example already

    given here. I'm not even going to bother going into the details. It's just not worth it. It's up to me to decide

    what I will or won't read, what I will or won't take seriously, what does or doesn't amuse me at any given

    moment.

    The problem is that we're travelling on an assumption that the mods in general have some psychic

    ability to determine what is or is not offensive enough to your entire audience to delete, what is or is not an

    ordinary conversational flow. So, taking keyboard firmly in hand, they slice and dice, and then complain that they

    have done it?? Someone used the word "schoolyard". But I didn't see anyone use the word "schoolmarm".

    You

    could be reactive, or proactive. Did it ever occur to you guys that perhaps a better way to handle a general tone of

    conversation you may not favor might be to start some threads you do like? Present some real questions? Do some

    interesting experiments and studies and post your own reports? Discuss a paper you have read on the subject of

    pheromones? In other words, rather than taking a negative and punitive action - which generally only serves to

    annoy; take positive action intended to provide some positive leadership? I've only joined recently, but I did not

    find the place unfriendly. OTOH - I can spell fairly decently, and I wasn't trying to cyber with everyone on the

    board. (Which, BTW, became a joke on the public part of the forum that you probably didn't get because you were

    only a party to some of the backend exchanges with another poor "innocent".)

    I get what you're saying, Bruce.

    But when your friend comes over and maybe has a couple too many beers and gets a little loud, the usual course of

    action is to humor him a little while putting the coffee on, because you already know he's a good guy when he

    sobers up a little.
    If you have people acting like schoolchildren, you're going to have people taking on

    the role of schoolmarm.

    If someone is PM'ing innapropriate or abusive stuff, deal with it directly. Let a mod

    know or call them on it, at least. No one is suggesting that is OK. If you dogpile publically instead, it's your

    own damn fault if it gets deleted. The schoolmarm needs to teach somebody that 2 wrongs don't make a right before

    she leaves for the day.
    DrSmellThis (creator of P H E R O S)

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    I don't have much

    new to add, but I just wanted to reiterate the importance of encouraging "interesting" pheromone

    discussion. It was good to see the BDC people posting, I hope they haven't gone

    too...




    A lot of the stock newbie questions that get asked twice a

    week can get boring to answer. I remember helping with the Cookbook which, even as a work in progress, helped a lot

    of the newbies out. However, Nimbus has unfortunately left us, and the Cookbook is a bit outdated. Initially it was

    intended to be a collection of mixing knowledge, but I really think we need a "Starters Guide" section, containing a

    lot more of the stock newbie questions and start-up techniques etc. I started doing this when Nimbus resurfaced a

    while ago, so it wouldn't be a huge job to knock out a basic version if the consensus was that it would help.





    Anyway, the point that I was aiming at with the previous

    paragraph (and missed entirely ) was that discussion would have a much better flow with a more obvious forum

    etiquette. Many other forums have very strict rules, I don't think we need to go that far, despite some of the

    hostility on here it's still a friendly place with a good group of people.






    A note on the technical side of the forum:





    -We need to have the search function fixed. We currently can't

    search for two or three letter words, which as Sod's law would have it is most of the useful content on the forum

    (SOE, TE etc.)




    -We need a more obvious

    link to the reference material. There is one in the newbie thread but it's a lot less obvious than the old forum's

    link.

  16. #46
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    I can easily ignore stupid opinions

    and mean spirited people; but hijacked threads are very frustrating. Sometimes I open up a thread with something to

    say, but by the time I’ve scrolled through all the insipid banter I figure, “What’s the point?”

  17. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrSmellThis
    If you have

    people acting like schoolchildren, you're going to have people taking on the role of schoolmarm.

    If someone is

    PM'ing innapropriate or abusive stuff, deal with it directly. Let a mod know or call them on it, at least. No one

    is suggesting that is OK. If you dogpile publically instead, it's your own damn fault if it gets deleted. The

    schoolmarm needs to teach somebody that 2 wrongs don't make a right before she leaves for the day.
    I

    didn't think the PM's were abusive. They possibly wouldn't even have seemed inappropriate to someone else. I

    found it objectionable, as apparently did others. It WAS dealt with quite directly. And was quite efficient,

    apparently. You just didn't like it that way, which is pretty much too bad at this point, since it's all been said

    and done. You've missed the point that what appeared to be wrong to you might not have appeared so if you really

    knew what was going on - unless you did know, and thought it was all o.k.?? Two messages got passed: 1) If you

    screw around with people, they probably won't take very kindly to it; and 2) Message received, let's call an end

    to the hostilities now. I don't think a schoolmarm is really required, and they usually take the summers off

    anyway, don't they?

  18. #48
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    CK,

    I will see about getting

    those technical problems fixed.

    Peachy,

    From what I have seen you have been very helpful in the

    pheromone section and I appreciate that. This is also a time for saying whatever pent up "stuff" you have in mind,

    so fair play, but I review the deleted material personally as it remains visible to forum admins, and I don't think

    I have ever seen a deleted post that I wouldn't have deleted myself. I can only assume that your knowledge of all

    the "slicing and dicing" that goes on around here is based on heresay, and as for complaining about "having to do

    it", I personally wasted quite a bit of time "slicing and dicing" up this thread, just so I could follow what the

    heck was being discussed (ie: the future of the forum/home). You were apparently happy to see Carlos get banned and

    his thread deep sixed. If it wasn't for Oscar he would still be here asking for nude photos. Call us "school

    marms" if you want, but anarchy is not one of the options.

    Your point about being more proactive is

    well-taken and just came up in discussion this morning. I guess we have been spoiled. There used to be an inner

    core of pheromone scientists hanging out on the forum who were constantly generating charts, FAQs, Cookbooks and on

    and on. Actually, you seem like the type to get involved with a little proactivity yourself, but the point here is

    to make the forum a safe and sane place where sensitive people could conceivably hang out without need of a flak

    jacket and helmet.

    Finally, it is a fact that we do not keep any drugs or alcohol in our home. None of my

    family drink and even our wedding party was dry. And hey, guess what? We don't keep coffee in our home either

    (though I do drop by Starbucks for a latte once in a while), so it is lucky we don't entertain drunks. I guess

    that really makes me very boring even for a "school marm", doesn't it?

    Bruce

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    I didn't know about Carlos'

    antics. I was just trying to think of an example of a newbie getting into a fight. Even if it was his fault, how

    does that look to other potential members that a newbie got attacked? Yes, nobody knew the whole story but the

    people involved, but I could see other strangers looking and saying, "Wow, that guy got butchered...I'm not

    posting."


    That being said, I apologize for the bad example. Next time, I'll think of a better one.

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    What, no cap for my name Doc? "ash"?

    I've been diss'd. I'm deeply offended. HAHA, not really. I was offended by Metro's Reagan posts though. Not

    personally offended but angry that he accused all those posting favorable comments about our Ex-Pres as being

    "Brainwashed". And, IMHO, his reference to Stalin was wayy over the top as was his Cartoon post (under the

    circumstances)but that's Metro and he has the right to say what he likes. I have a right to comment on it though

    and that's the part you don't get. You didn't get it in the Terrorist Thread, the Michael Moore Thread or the

    Reagan Thread. FREE SPEECH IS A TWO WAY STREET DOC!

    This latest Thread of yours, following the Reagan Thread so

    closely, led me to believe it was a continuation of your thought process from previous posts and I still believe it

    was to a certain extant. After reading through ALL the replys to this Thread I can see now that there are bigger

    issues being discussed. My Bad for not seeing the whole picture before but I don't read ALL the Threads here and

    didn't realize that there was some "serious" bashing going on. I'm quite guilty of bashing on occasion. In the

    very recent past every time I bash it seems to be followed by you admonishing me for speaking my mind and rising to

    the defense of those that I've criticized even though their comments are, IMHO, totally indefensible. But that's

    COOL Doc, you've got the right to say whatever you want to me. That's FREE SPEECH DOC and I'm very cool with

    it.

    Moving on to the "Bigger Issues". Respectfully directed at Bruce.

    Way back last summer ******

    deleted a reply I had made to a guy that had seriously offended me. It was my very first deletion and I got in touch

    with ****** to find out why he had pulled my post and not the post that had offended me. We exchanged a few PM's

    and the bottom line was he just didn't feel like it. Further probing by me through PM's with ******* reveled that

    there was no set of "Rules or Guidelines" for the Mod's. Whatever they felt like pulling got pulled. It sounded a

    bit like anarchy to me but as you pointed out it's your House Bruce. In one of your posts here you mention that

    having an expanded set of Rules might not be a bad idea for Forum members. I agree. Unless things have already been

    changed it would be nice if the Mod's had a set of rules to go by too.

    Banning? How about a three

    strikes and your out rule? And, would amnesty be possible for Deb? Her being banned is all my fault actually. She

    got off to a bad start after reading some of my posts in the Terrorist T. Forgiveness is a wonderful thing Bruce and

    Deb really is a very sweet person and totally repentant. She just had a very bad week is all.

    Icons?

    This may seem like a small thing but for me it's bigger than you might think. Many here already know that I'm a

    little strange. Some of what I write can easily be taken the wrong way. Icons go along way to help me "Express" what

    I'm really saying. The Icons on the new Forum SUCK!!!! They're seriously ugly and almost demonic looking, whereas

    my little friends at the Old Forum were sweet and very expressive. A post by the Webmaster told of how he was

    working for free. A statement that totally mystified me but whatever. I will personally pay him to change the Icons

    here out for the old icons Bruce! I especially miss my little buddy *D*.. ..*sigh* SEE WHAT I MEAN? Also, I

    think the addition of a *puke* icon would be in very good taste along with an Old style ROFLMAO!
    Last edited by Ash; 06-14-2004 at 03:55 PM.

  21. #51
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    Speaking of icons, I frequent

    another forum that has a nice variety of emoticons. I'd be happy to PM you or the Webmaster the site, if you're

    interested in checking them out. I don't know if it's possible to add emoticons, but if so, those would be some

    nice ones to add.

    If it's possible it would be nice to see the past several people at least that we've

    given repuation to, because some of us don't pass out rep points as often as others and we tend to get frustrated

    seeing that "you must pass more rep around" window.

    I'm glad someone mentioned the reference material

    link. I've been looking for it but haven't been able to find it. If it was displayed more prominently, it might

    help newbies out as well as those of us who don't have perfect memories or are trying new products for the first

    time.
    "I have a hammer! I can put things together! I can knock things apart! I can alter my environment at will and make an incredible din all the while! Ah, it's great to be male!"

    --Calvin & Hobbes

  22. #52
    Administrator Bruce's Avatar
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    Ash,

    I am generally a sucker

    for a banned member who wants another chance, but we exchanged a few emails and she finally went off in a huff.

    Also, she was warned a couple of times about the same issue and each time promised to stop it, only to take it to a

    new level. Carlos wants back on too you know. Survey female forum members and see how they would feel about

    that.

    The emoticons sound very do-able. SRH, PM Webmaster with the URL and I bet he'll fix us up with

    that.

    B

  23. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce
    Peachy,
    ...


    From what I have seen you have been very helpful in the pheromone section and I appreciate that. This is also a

    time for saying whatever pent up "stuff" you have in mind, so fair play, but I review the deleted material

    personally as it remains visible to forum admins, and I don't think I have ever seen a deleted post that I

    wouldn't have deleted myself. I can only assume that your knowledge of all the "slicing and dicing" that goes on

    around here is based on heresay, and as for complaining about "having to do it", I personally wasted quite a bit of

    time "slicing and dicing" up this thread, just so I could follow what the heck was being discussed (ie: the future

    of the forum/home). You were apparently happy to see Carlos get banned and his thread deep sixed. If it wasn't for

    Oscar he would still be here asking for nude photos. Call us "school marms" if you want, but anarchy is not one of

    the options.

    Your point about being more proactive is well-taken and just came up in discussion this morning. I

    guess we have been spoiled. There used to be an inner core of pheromone scientists hanging out on the forum who were

    constantly generating charts, FAQs, Cookbooks and on and on. Actually, you seem like the type to get involved with a

    little proactivity yourself, but the point here is to make the forum a safe and sane place where sensitive people

    could conceivably hang out without need of a flak jacket and helmet.

    Finally, it is a fact that we do not keep

    any drugs or alcohol in our home. None of my family drink and even our wedding party was dry. And hey, guess what?

    We don't keep coffee in our home either (though I do drop by Starbucks for a latte once in a while), so it is lucky

    we don't entertain drunks. I guess that really makes me very boring even for a "school marm", doesn't it?



    Bruce
    Actually, Bruce, I had no idea Carlos had gotten banned at all. I thought he had just taken a

    giant hint (about the size of Cincinnatti) and buzzed off. I am surprised to hear you hadn't already considered

    taking a proactive approach. I have had the impression that you, as you said earlier, aren't terribly inclined to

    take the draconian approach as a first option.

    In any case, it is certainly true that I have made a number of

    drug and alcohol related cracks, even on this thread, as have others. Apparently, you have gotten some strange

    impression that I would somehow approve (or even instigate?) a drunken brawl in my own home! To the contrary, this

    would not blend well with either my athletic or my social pursuits in real life. The point was intended far more in

    a "Kumbaya" vein than "Miss Manners" (Although, I do believe that even she, dear lady, would have agreed with my

    example, however firmly she had planted toungue in cheek when doing so). I am genuinely sorry it came off otherwise.

    I can see why you might not appreciate the schoomarm references, just as I felt the nearly inescapable lure of

    zinging the writer of the schoolyard bully reference. Miss Peach blushes at her own lack of decorum. This peach has

    thick skin almost everywhere, except where it doesn't.

    Do you see where I am heading here? We can clean up the

    language used, dispose of the declassé references, and make conciliatory gestures using all the

    very best netiquette. But an edge is an edge, however phrased, and whether or not every reader is even capable of

    discerning such. And that, rather than the manner of its deliverance, is the real problem at hand. It does no good

    to jump to either the extreme of an unchecked holocaust or a button-down ghost of true debate. Ironically, it may

    also not be such a good thing to take the middle of the road in some ways, unless we are very clear as to whether

    the matter is really one of mere style or of actual substance. Your call, certainly. I would only urge you to

    consider this thought as you formulate your forthcoming policies.

  24. #54
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    Thanks for your reply Bruce! Thanks

    for this Forum too and all the work you put in here. This turned out to be a very needed Thread I think and I can't

    tell you how much it pains me to write that. *smile icon from the Old Forum*. It's had a very positive effect on

    me. Hope I'm not the only one. I'm 50/50 on my Rep points from this Thread with a very nice PM from one of the

    truly Hot/COOL Babes here. Life is good! *D icon from the Old Forum*

  25. #55
    Doctor of Scentology DrSmellThis's Avatar
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    Post PC, Free Speech, and Debate

    For

    what it's worth on "non-PC debating", in case someone is interested in the topic, which is I think relevant:



    The thread where Bobby from BDC first posted was a good example where debate happened without lines being crossed.

    Bobby's presence was really helpful to folks. I'm glad that conversation happened, even though not everyone agreed

    with me.

    I personally have spent a lot of time, over 15 years, in academia, constantly surrounded by debates

    and debaters. I love good debates and will take on all comers quite comfortably if it's something I've thought a

    lot about. But there's a difference between debating and street brawling, or bathroom graffiti. Remember the show,

    Politically Incorrect, with Bill Maher? That was another example where people said controversial things and

    disagreed without verbal street brawling or disrespect (mostly). They kidded each other in off color ways. No harm,

    no foul.

    But one thing I learned from academia is, if you're going to be really non-PC, (like Larry Bird

    saying the NBA needs more white people, or Rasheed saying African-Americans are exploited in the NBA) you have to be

    prepared to defend your position in a well thought out, rational way, all the way to the core; because people are

    going to come at you hard and fast. Just calling them names; making glib snappy comebacks; or attacking personally

    doesn't work in your favor. You will look like an idiot, frankly. They (those really good debater types) will pull

    the pillars out from under where you thought you stood.

    If I knowingly have stated an opinion that is counter

    to the "prevailing view", I have already implicitly set the stage for a possible debate, unless I made clear that I

    only wanted to give a tentative, intuitive, or feeling-based opinion. And if I contine to push my opinion, or

    attempt to debate, it will be completely freaking irrelevant to say in my own defense, "well everyone's

    entitled to an opinion in our free country." Becase you're not just expressing your opinion in that case,

    you're also saying or at least implying it is a valid and sound opinion, and that it is moreso than someone

    else's. Otherwise you would just respectfully state it, leave it at being just your opinion, be clear about that,

    and then spend the rest of your time showing respect to others' opinions. So you're already coming off as

    making no sense saying that-- the worst possible defeat for a debater, by all standards.

    No one

    will arrest you. That's exactly how far "I have a right to my opinion in this free country" gets you in a

    debate. But thoughtful folks won't respect you intellectually or modify their beliefs (or necessarily

    keep you as a member in their forum). Who cares about that? Well, aside from wanting to earn intellectual

    respect, if you enter into actual debate, you are implicitly agreeing to modify your own beliefs if the

    other person wins deservedly, or "demonstrates rational superiority," as they say. (It's like science and

    falsifiability.) Otherwise you wouldn't be making arguments at all. Someone who doesn't demonstrate that spirit

    (e.g., by finding another's point truly interesting, or acknowledging various changes in their position. Both

    techniques were well demonstrated by Bobby in that thread.) comes off as a hypocrite, time-waster, masturbater, and

    fool, frankly. They can fairly expect to be treated as if they are coming off in that way -- with personal

    respect, of course.

    The good news is that knowing all this makes one a better debater. Because even if one

    can't see the need to modify his or her thinking, one can always use their humility to say "I need to think about

    that more;" or say that there are "unanswered questions", or "unclear" places, or "this is the part I still don't

    understand" for example; without looking at all foolish, even if they aren't the best debaters. Another

    option is to take Maher's approach and kid people harmlessly. Still another that works just fine is to just state

    it's an opinion and leave it at that, though this feels limiting for many folks. A fourth option, then, is to work

    on one's skills. Of course, I'm not suggesting anyone has to debate skillfully. I am sharing that this is what I

    learned happens, through having been "beat up" in various debates. The above can be taken as "debate survival

    tips".

    If I state a controversial opinion, then, I know to expect people to come at me tenaciously, pointing out

    potential problems with my rational thinking, all the way to the core. I am not going to think they are

    disrespecting my rights to free speech, or think I don't have such rights in their eyes. However, if they try to

    brawl instead, spout graffiti, or show disrespect, they have instead lost, if I have used my debate survival

    skills.
    Last edited by DrSmellThis; 06-15-2004 at 11:29 AM.
    DrSmellThis (creator of P H E R O S)

  26. #56
    Doctor of Scentology DrSmellThis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ash
    Thanks for your

    reply Bruce! Thanks for this Forum too and all the work you put in here. This turned out to be a very needed Thread

    I think and I can't tell you how much it pains me to write that. *smile icon from the Old Forum*. It's had a very

    positive effect on me. Hope I'm not the only one. I'm 50/50 on my Rep points from this Thread with a very nice PM

    from one of the truly Hot/COOL Babes here. Life is good! *D icon from

    the Old Forum*

    ....
    DrSmellThis (creator of P H E R O S)

  27. #57
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    This thread has been very

    informative - a user agreement sounds like a good idea - set out what and will not be accepted etc.

    People

    should make greater use of the reputation aspects of the forum - keeping it on topic in the pheromone discussion

    area is a good idea and all off topic in off topic.

    I have been on and off recently - not as much as i used

    to be but being here since 2000 or 2001 i think the longer term members have an idea of what is good and what is

    bad.

  28. #58
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    BTW, I'd like to thank Pancho

    for bumping some of his excellent posts.
    DrSmellThis (creator of P H E R O S)

  29. #59
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    Wow. I read mainly

    the Pheromone Discussions thread, so I didn't know there was so much controversy going on. I just noticed that

    several frequent posters had been banned and was trying to find out what happened.

    The first forum I ever

    frequented was the Deepak Chopra forum hosted by Random House. I found it around 1999 and became a regular

    participant. I loved the anarchy about the place. Anything and everything was discussed, there were no moderators.



    It was great... for a few months. Then a battle of egos started. Interesting when part of Eastern philosophy

    is to rid yourself of your ego. There was one person who I will call "the Messiah," as he has had some sort of

    "awakening" and first went to Chopra's forum to discuss it as he thought he was losing his mind.

    The other

    instigator was someone I'll call "the Cynic." This guy took a deep loathing to the Messiah, and started to flame

    him every time he posted. By the time the USA was gearing up for war with Iraq, the Messiah, who is a Brit, started

    posting anti war/Bush stuff. The Cynic would retaliate with just posting extremely high resolution photos and cut

    and paste text from other forums, making it impossible for anyone to read it as it took too long to load.

    A

    third participant, whom I'll refer to as "the Vagabond," would echo the Messiah's opinions, which also brought the

    Cynic's wrath upon him and was treated with the same abuse that the Messiah was.

    When the Cynic first came

    onto the scene, one woman who was offended, created a private chatroom with Spiritweb as a safe place to play. I was

    a member of this group, along with the Messiah and the Vagabond. Spiritweb eventually dropped their chatroom

    function so the Vagabond started a private chat area on his website.

    Well, I got blasted at the private

    chatroom for telling the Messiah and the Vagabond at Chopra's that they were just as guilty as the Cynic for

    bringing Chopra's forum down. They knew if they posted anything political on the forum, the Cynic would retaliate

    with garbage, rendering the forum usless for everyone. Yet they would continue to do so. Instead of seeing it as the

    pissing match it was, they were comparing their web presence to marching to free Nelson Mandela.

    The Messiah

    and Vagabond and a few supporters contacted Random House about the Cynic's abuse, which ended up with the forum

    closing, to be replaced with a (supposedly) moderated forum. The flaming continued for a bit, until the Cynic

    finally got banned. But the new place is just a shell of what once was. There is virtually no discussion on Deepak

    Chopra and his works there anymore. It's still mainly the Messiah's critisim of the U.S., it's governors and

    it's policies.

    I no longer participate there. I go back occasionally to look, but just don't feel like

    inputing there anymore. After being dogpiled on at the Vagabond's chatroom, I lost all urge to post there too, and

    cut my visits down to once a week, then once a month, then to every few months when I remembered the place. It

    turned into the Messiah fan club. Finally, sometime around last Thanksgiving, I found that they had changed the

    password, locking me out.

    A friend from the Chopra and Spiritweb sites told me about the Straight Dope

    Message Board, and I got hooked on that. It's moderated, something I thought I wouldn't like, but it turned out I

    did. It kept the Cynic, Vagabond, and Messiah types away. Trouble with that board is that there is so much to read

    there I waste too much time. They also recently went to a fee based membership, so I think they are going to lose a

    lot of good input. I did sign up as a "charter member" as I thought $5/year was a lot better that the regular price

    of around $20.

    I had peeked into this forum a couple of times but didn't participate until I bought WAGG

    through a Wacky Wednesday special. With all the new products in the last few months, I've since become obsessed

    with mones and enjoy the forum here. Though I still like the anarchy of the Internet, I appreciate the moderators

    here and the job they do. This a great place. I particularly like the fact that Bruce, JVK and the guys from BDC

    concepts are posting here.

    I like this place and Bruce has every right to run it the way he feel it should

    be run. After all, he is using his own money to keep it running. It's not like we pay to post here.

    I can

    remember a poster at the second incarnation of the Chopra forum threatening to sue because they blocked his

    cartoonish picture of President Bush. He claimed that the moderators were supressing his freedom of speech. He could

    not see the logic when I pointed out that Crown Publishing was hosting the site and we had to play by their rules.

    It was still a free speech issue to him.

    Now I'm an anarchist at heart, but I believe there is a personal

    responsability to individual rights that goes along with anarchy. There should be no laws, other than laws against

    initiatory force against others. In other words, I believe in your right to swing your arms around wildly, but that

    right ends when your fist comes in contact with my nose.

    Looks like some here made contact with the forum's

    nose.

    Anyway, I hope I made some sense in this rambling post. I just wanted to relate my bad experiences with

    other forums and to support Bruce and the moderators' decisions to run this place as they see fit to do so.

  30. #60
    Doctor of Scentology DrSmellThis's Avatar
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    Nice anecdote, IP.

    For

    "whatever reasons," things are starting to get very significantly better around here again, with quality

    posts clearly on the rise, and respect being shown even where there is disagreement! I don't think I'm imagining

    things.

    My sincere thanks go out to the many of you who have chipped in to restore the Phero Forum to

    its previous level of quality! This is looking to have been a remarkable success story. Indeed, at present I no

    longer even have the complaint I had when I started this thread two weeks ago! The energy just seems very

    different. I am pleasantly suprised! Good sense has prevailed.

    Peace, Love and Kumbaya!
    DrSmellThis (creator of P H E R O S)

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