Michael Moore Wins Top Honors...

[Holmes]

...for

Fahrenheit

9/11.

Woohoo!


Holmes

[koolking1]

yep, am eager to see it!!!

[BigGulp]

Yeah, the frogs loved is corpulent ass at Cannes. That was a big F\'ing surprise. Where\'s the puke icon when

you need it?

[JustPeachy]

Straight up, Gulp.

[BigGulp]

[img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

[DrSmellThis]

Frogs = French? Never heard that one.

An interesting philosophical question: At what point is a good

citizen\'s quiet support of a controversial president\'s foreign policies during an extended wartime no longer

obligatory from one\'s patriotic duty? Is it never?

[BigGulp]

</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Frogs = French? Never heard that one.

An

interesting philosophical question: At what point is a good citizen\'s quiet support of a controversial

president\'s foreign policies during an extended wartime no longer obligatory from one\'s patriotic duty? Is it

never?

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">


Huh?


If I understand your question I don\'t

think there has ever been a moral (for lack of a better word) or philosophical obligation to support a President (in

the US) during a time of war. There is a legal obligation in the form of a draft and, depending on the War, the risk

of social chastisement if you find your views are too far outside of the mainstream as happened to Lucky Lindy after

the start of WWII. As for being a Patriot, I don\'t see those that are against the war or Bush as being any less

patriotic than those that are for the war and the country seems almost evenly divided on the issue.

I don\'t

see Moore as a Leftist Patriot though. I see him as a Carpet Bagging propagandist, extraordinarily adept at

extracting serious $ from those that like to feed their minds with half truths and whole lies. Stalin referred to

this group of people as \"his useful idiots\". In his movie, Moore\'s bottom line is that Bush was the

mastermind behind 911. Millions will believe it to be true after seeing the movie. I don\'t see where that is

going to help prevent NY, CH or LA from getting hit with a dirty bomb. Unless, of course, Bush really was behind

911 and his next targets are NY, CH and LA. In which case we should get him out of office right now.

[DrSmellThis]

You understood me correctly the first time. I\'m glad you don\'t hold that moral you referred to, but we are

seeing quite often just that ethic in the news, as some Republicans in Congress, for example, are claiming political

critics (e.g, the New Yorker author) are putting our fighting men and women unnecessarily at risk. And Moore will

receive the criticism that he is making a \"perfect propaganda film to recruit terrorists\". Again, the same idea:

\"Criticising the president is tantamount to supporting the enemy, by degree of the severity of the criticism\",

according to such an \"ethic\".

So I\'m not asking you personally, BigGulp, but I am still asking: When

will it be OK to again criticise our government, and demonstrate to the world a real, crucial benefit of democracy

that thinking people from non-democratic cultures might be able to relate to? When the most brutal rational

criticisms of your country can emerge from within your own culture, due to accessability of information or whatever,

you\'ve achieved something special! This is democracy at near best, in action. Meanwhile, maybe our government

gets pressured to slightly alter its course, if we\'re lucky, and the world gets to observe that too, as we are

now seeing with war prison reform. Let\'s release the photos and investigation results; and then \"hand out puke

icons to everybody\"! [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]~ Will this do as puke icon,

BTW?

Open societies are not about some ficticious absence of \"bad things\" (e.g., corrupt politicians and

soldiers); but rather how those open societies handle their bad things.

I will be curious to finally see the

movie and find out if that really is Moore\'s intended point (i.e., Bush simply \"masterminding 9/11\"), per

se. I think Moore is selling himself short if it indeed is, as there are other telling points to be made from

all the raw material (e.g., Bush\'s former ties to the Bin Laden family) I heard went into the documentary. He

doesn\'t need to make that limited, and \"black and white\", of a conclusion. But I agree with you that, if

it was \"masterminded\" that way, Bush should be immediately removed from office; and I would add, thrown in

prison for murder and treason, as per the transparent openness and impartiality of the American judicial system at

its best.

[CJ01]

Pretty

cool that he won as it´s a docfilm not a `normal´ movie. As for he frog reference, it´s toal crap because the jury

consisted mainly of americans.

The one criticism I heard about this film is that it doesn´t mention anything

about Guantanamo Bay and that´s a shame imo.

CJ

[CJ01]

</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Frogs = French? Never heard that one.

<hr

/></blockquote><font class=\"post\"> It´s an old one I´m afraid and bloody stupid and rude too I reckon ...

[img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

[franki]

</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Pretty cool that he won as it´s a docfilm not a

`normal´ movie. As for he frog reference, it´s toal crap because the jury consisted mainly of americans.

The one

criticism I heard about this film is that it doesn´t mention anything about Guantanamo Bay and that´s a shame

imo.

CJ

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

What I heard was that you can hardly call it a

\"documentary\", and that it is rather propaganda for Moore\'s conspiracy theories..

[CJ01]

Well I

can´t say but either way it´s not a normal movie. I don´t even care if it is about his theories as long as it´s a

good film and we have to wait till it comes out. What are the chances that the yanks get to see it? Taking bets

now [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

[metroman]

Dont worry America! Go back to your Oprah your Dr Phil, Friends &amp; Frasier...The official story of 9/11 as

promulgated by big corporate media, CNN, Fox, etc is just as they it is. Dont you go believing those radical nut

case conspiracy theorists like Michael Moore or David Icke... [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]

[Elana]

Michael Moore is a lizard too? [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif[/img]

[BigGulp]

</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Well I can´t say but either way it´s not a normal

movie. I don´t even care if it is about his theories as long as it´s a good film and we have to wait till it comes

out. What are the chances that the yanks get to see it? Taking bets now

[img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]


<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">


The movie

will be seen here CJ. We aren\'t a totalitarian state yet. I don\'t see that happening until shortly after

Hillary is elected in 2008.

[CJ01]

Are you

sure you´re gonna get to see it? When exactly?

[JustPeachy]

</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
</font><blockquote><font

class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Frogs = French? Never heard that one.

<hr /></blockquote><font

class=\"post\"> It´s an old one I´m afraid and bloody stupid and rude too I reckon ...

[img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

<hr

/></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

Quite correct, though I\'m not sure \"frog\" was entirely derisive. It

was applied to allies in WWII. The modern term appears to be \"Cheese-eating Surrender Monkey\". Too bad, really,

as I understand the French people are not generally in much agreement with the current government (this view gained

from Euro friends and a Parisian in a particular). Seems \"their\" corporate propaganda and \"ours\" are in

opposition these days...and if you can truly sort out all the multinationals, you\'re doing better than I

am.

As to supporting the President - no, there\'s no moral requirement to support him in particular. There is,

however a moral requirement to support fellow citizens in harm\'s way, whether you approve their situation or not.

Were it not so, there would probably be no need for puke icons.

[CJ01]

You´re

right, the french aren´t happy with their government and neither are the germans with theirs but for internal

reasons and not for the reasons americans hate them. The british are p*ssed off with Blair too and so on...

[img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

[BigGulp]

</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
You understood me correctly the first time. I\'m

glad you don\'t hold that moral you referred to, but we are seeing quite often just that ethic in the news, as

some Republicans in Congress, for example, are claiming political critics (e.g, the New Yorker author) are putting

our fighting men and women unnecessarily at risk. And Moore will receive the criticism that he is making a

\"perfect propaganda film to recruit terrorists\". Again, the same idea: \"Criticising the president is

tantamount to supporting the enemy, by degree of the severity of the criticism\", according to such an \"ethic\".




<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">


The \"Republicans in Congress\", and others that

criticize the protesters, have just as much right to their criticisms as those who are protesting against the

President and the war. I don\'t see anybody being thrown in jail for speaking their mind. I hear a lot of people

on the left whining about their voices being stifled but if their voices were really being stifled I wouldn\'t be

able to hear them whine. The New Yorker authors\'s article was published; yes? As are hundreds of other articles

being published every day criticizing the President; so where\'s the problem? Seems to me that freedom of speech

is alive and well in the US of A on both sides. As for Moore, I have as much right to criticize him for making a

\"Perfect Propaganda film\" as he has the right to make and SELL his film. When I criticize Moore or Clinton or

Bush I should expect to get some flames in return. If my arguments are valid maybe I\'ll change some minds. If

they\'re not, maybe somebody will change my mind.



</font><blockquote><font

class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
So I\'m not asking you personally, BigGulp, but I am still asking: When

will it be OK to again criticise our government, and demonstrate to the world a real, crucial benefit of democracy

that thinking people from non-democratic cultures might be able to relate to? When the most brutal rational

criticisms of your country can emerge from within your own culture, due to accessability of information or whatever,

you\'ve achieved something special! This is democracy at near best, in action. Meanwhile, maybe our government

gets pressured to slightly alter its course, if we\'re lucky, and the world gets to observe that too, as we are

now seeing with war prison reform. Let\'s release the photos and investigation results; and then \"hand out puke

icons to everybody\"! ~ Will this do as puke icon, BTW?


<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">




\"When the most brutal rational criticisms of your country can emerge from within your own culture,

due to accessibility of information or whatever, you\'ve achieved something special! \" This is happening

right now all over the country Doc. Tune into Seattle\'s KIRO Radio station at 9:PM tonight and listen to Erin

Hart\'s program or Mike Webb\'s 9:PM program week nights. \"Brutal\" doesn\'t even come close to describing

the animas, vitriol and pure hatred of the Bush administration expressed by the hosts and callers on these programs.

Free speech and descent IS alive and well in Seattle, San Fran., NY and Portland too. Just go through your AM radio

dial and you\'ll find it. You don\'t have to look very hard.

As for other countries relating to

Democracy....that\'s a scary thought. As Churchill once said; \"Democracy is the worst form of government there

is. Except for every other form of government.\". Democracy is not a pretty thing to watch. By nature Democracy it

is brutal because by nature people are brutal. Read some history about the founding of the USA, the writing of the

Constitution and the forming of our Nation. What an ugly mess. Read a history of what Abraham Lincoln went through

during the Civil War. News Papers in the North as well as the South were openly calling for his

assassination. Lincoln new he would be killed before his term ended but he carried on with what he believed

in. Politics in the United States has never been pretty. NEVER.

I guess the point I\'m trying to make is

that as bad as things look right now they aren\'t even close to as bad as they\'ve been at times throughout our

history. I don\'t worry about us as a people. Left and Right will continue to piss on each other just like

we\'ve always done. I worry about the Dirty bombs though and I\'m always concerned about the Lizard People.



The [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]~ will have to do for now and I must leave and see if

I can\'t create more chaos with my last two drops of JDM and...dare I put 4 sprays of Chikara on today?

[img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

[DrSmellThis]

Some good points, BG. Dissent is certainly alive, anyway. On the other hand, so is information control, in many

ways. There are those in congress that sort of call for people\'s heads who express such dissent, rather than just

disagree. I haven\'t personally heard that Moore\'s film is BS, but that would be a shame. Good heretical

information is still challenging to come by.

[BigGulp]

</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Are you sure you´re gonna get to see it? When

exactly?

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">


I would think it will take about the same amount of

time that any other successful Cannes film would take to make it\'s way through the system and out to the Theaters

here. It could happen much faster given Moore\'s connections to the Hollywood scene. I think it\'s safe to say

Moore will have an easier time getting his film shown than Gibson did with the \"Passion\". HW doesn\'t like

Gibson at all and certainly didn\'t like the subject of his last movie. HW loves Moore and the way Bush is

presented in the film, so, as they say here in the USA, \"Look for it soon in a Theater near you\".





</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />


Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Frogs = French? Never

heard that one.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It´s an

old one I´m afraid and bloody stupid and rude too I reckon ...


<hr /></blockquote><font

class=\"post\">


As you already know CJ, I\'m not a very politically correct person. Screw that. That

doesn\'t mean I\'m an A-hole. I just say what\'s on my mind. I\'m the same in the real world too. I\'m not

without sensitivity and compassion though. There are words that aren\'t in my vocabulary. The \"C\" word when

referring to a woman. The \"N\" word when referring to a Black person. Etc., etc., on down the line. I don\'t

see anything particularly offensive in the term \"frog\". The French have been called a lot worse by some of the

greatest political, military and social minds history can offer up. When I use a term like that I\'m referring to

a government and not to a people. I\'m sure the French are wonderful people. I\'d never have sex with a French

women though. Having owned a French car in my past I\'m sure I wouldn\'t be able cope with all the extra

maintenance. I\'m very fond of English Girls though. Wink, wink. Nudge, nudge.

[img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

[franki]

Post deleted by Bruce

[BigGulp]

oops! [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]

[CJ01]

Post deleted by CJ01

[metroman]

Is that what the woman who was fired from her job for photographing the coffins to show the real toll of Iraq vs

the sanitized version brought to you by the propaganda corp embedded reporters doing; exercising her right to free

speech? Is that what the American people were doing in Nov of 2000 when the majority of people voting in this

country decided that Al Gore should be leading the government vs having the election stolen by the military junta US

Supreme Court; exercising their rights to participate in a democracy?

[img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

[EXIT63]

All

this from a man who believes in lizard people.

[CJ01]

It´s

okay, don´t worry Ash, I just get bored of those terms and coming from an american makes it a bit dodgy that´s all

[img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]
Btw I´d never use the `N´word myself!

[img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img]

[img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img]
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr

/>
I\'d never have sex with a French women though

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\"> Not sure I

would either [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

</font><blockquote><font

class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
The French have been called a lot worse by some of the greatest political,

military and social minds history can offer up.

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\"> For instance, can you

name some examples? I hope you don´t mean Bush [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

[CJ01]

</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />


Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Are you sure you´re

gonna get to see it? When exactly?




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------




I would think it

will take about the same amount of time that any other successful Cannes film would take to make it\'s way through

the system and out to the Theaters here. It could happen much faster given Moore\'s connections to the Hollywood

scene. I think it\'s safe to say Moore will have an easier time getting his film shown than Gibson did with the

\"Passion\". HW doesn\'t like Gibson at all and certainly didn\'t like the subject of his last movie. HW loves

Moore and the way Bush is presented in the film, so, as they say here in the USA, \"Look for it soon in a Theater

near you\".



<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\"> So you didn´t hear about Moores problems to get the

film shown then?

[BigGulp]

</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
It´s okay, don´t worry Ash, I just get bored of

those terms and coming from an american makes it a bit dodgy that´s all

[img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]
Btw I´d never use the `N´word myself!

[img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img]

[img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img]
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr

/>
I\'d never have sex with a French women though

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\"> Not sure I

would either [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

</font><blockquote><font

class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
The French have been called a lot worse by some of the greatest political,

military and social minds history can offer up.

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\"> For instance, can you

name some examples? I hope you don´t mean Bush [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

<hr

/></blockquote><font class=\"post\">



Frederick The Great, Rommel, Patton, Ben Franklin, Eisenhower,

Churchill. Forgive my spelling on those names. It\'s a pretty long list actually. Those are just a few that come

to mind right now as I getting ready for the day. De Gaul was a HUGE thorn in the side of the Allies during WWII

but you can\'t fault the French people for that.

Moore\'s alleged problem with distributing his film here is

a total invention by him to help promote the film and to make the USA look like an evil monster. Our government

isn\'t going to stop the film from being seen. They can\'t. The USA is still a free country. The distribution

outlets for the films shown in the USA are all privately owned by the Hollywood crowd. Again, that\'s why Gibson

had such a hard time with the \"Passion\".

[CJ01]

</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Our government isn\'t going to stop the film from

being seen

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\"> That´s not what´s being said actually. I don´t think USA

is very free to be honest but that´s another subject perhaps [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

What I heard was that it´s not the government itself but rather some powerful friends (in the film industry)who

don´t want this film out especially not before the elections.
I am ken to see whether or not Bush will get elected

this time round or if he loses and just refuse to move out of the White House and carry on squating in there

[img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]