Science

[Helsinki]

Just for info., I asked a

professor today who has a PhD in Zoology (he has studied quite a bit on sex selection, but mostly in reptiles) about

a vomeronasal organ in humans. He said it didn\'t exist. He said, \"some studies have argued that there is some

suggestive evidence for pheremone receptors, but there is any difinitive proof.\" He also said that there is

some evidence of a VNO in some primates, but that it is ONLY used for males sensing females in heat,

and never the other way around.
He obviously could be wrong, but he usually knows his stuff.
Today I\'ve TRIED

to OD on none, but the girls have been just as friendly as every other day.
Just putting it out there for info.

[DrSmellThis]

You can tell your prof

he just hasn\'t kept up with the Erox/Berliner studies. Recently the VNO has been shown to be electrochemically

active in humans. What hasn\'t been determined is how important it is, practically speaking; absolutely, or

relative to standard olfaction.

[Helsinki]

I would be fascinated to

read about this subject in a reputable journal somewhere. He would be too, can you tell me where to find the

research? There wasn\'t much that I could find through love-scent.com. Belgareth said:
\"Pheromone research is

in it\'s infancy and we are lucky enough to be involved with it here. How do we know that any of the mones bought

here or anywhere else really do what they are purported to do? I\'ve seen very little on this site that could not

be considered a placebo effect and very little has been demonstrated with good, tightly controlled research. Yet

some people on this forum take it as the holy grail. All the posted hit stories on this forum and any others mean

very little in the way of real proof.\"
I don\'t know, I just love the science of it. Link me to those reports,

that would seriously be awesome. Thank you so much for your help.

[Mtnjim]

</font><blockquote><font

class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
I would be fascinated to read about this subject in a reputable journal

somewhere. He would be too, can you tell me where to find the research? There wasn\'t much that I could find

through love-scent.com. Belgareth said:
\"Pheromone research is in it\'s infancy and we are lucky enough to be

involved with it here. How do we know that any of the mones bought here or anywhere else really do what they are

purported to do? I\'ve seen very little on this site that could not be considered a placebo effect and very little

has been demonstrated with good, tightly controlled research. Yet some people on this forum take it as the holy

grail. All the posted hit stories on this forum and any others mean very little in the way of real proof.\"
I

don\'t know, I just love the science of it. Link me to those reports, that would seriously be awesome. Thank you

so much for your help.

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

You might try James V. Kohl\'s

site, Tons of stuff there.

[einstein]

If you\'re a university

student, your school library should give you access to some search engines like Ebscohost or Lexis-Nexis. These are

very useful in finding journal articles. Just search for \"human pheromone\" or the individual names of

pheromones. Some of them will have full text online, some just an abstract that you have to go find the hardcopy

for. Most of the articles are in somewhat obscure journals, my school doesn\'t have most of them. But Belgareth

is right, there isn\'t much research out there.

[Helsinki]

Thank you. And ya, I\'ve

looked into those. Bio one is also very good. Nothing too \"hard\" as far as evidence goes. Oh well, it\'s still

fun.

[DrSmellThis]

Are you telling us that

you checked out everything (studies, books) on JVK\'s site, and are dismissing it all as soft science? Bel\'s

above comments are sound when applied to forum \"hit stories\". But that\'s much different. He is also correct

about this being a young field. But it\'s not without some achievement.

If you finish looking at all the

easily accessible research, and still need more on this topic, I\'ll give you enough more to keep you busy for at

least a year. For now, I\'ll wager you still have enough to keep you busy, and will wait to post more references.

If your prof has a PhD, he knows very well how to look up Berliner and his Erox colleagues in the journals and books

referenced on JVK\'s site. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] I summarized the bottom line of

those studies for you above.

BTW, I wouldn\'t count on your luck with -none OD\'s to continue.

[img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[belgareth]

DST is correct about my

comments in reference to this forum. Information here ranges from truly superb to anecdotal to pure hogwash and

lousy science, depending on the writer. You have to be careful to consider who wrote the material before assuming

they had a clue what they were talking about. JVK\'s site has some really good information and the links provided

have mountains more. Another really good source of information is any university that has a med school or even a

school of nursing, the libraries and computer resource centers there are over-flowing with good data.

It is

a new science but there are some good researchers working in the field. I do not mean to discredit any of them. Like

any science, it takes time to produce a large body of relevant information if the research is done correctly.

[jvkohl]

I\'m attending the

Association for Chemoreception Sciences conference in Sarasota Florida; lots of information on the VNO, little on

the human VNO. My position on this--as indicated several times in this forum--is that a human VNO, or its apparrent

lack of any known connection to a human accessory olfactory system (AOS) makes little difference to research on

human pheromones. The typical mammalian luteinizing hormone response to human pheromones has been demonstrated

repeatedly, and there is plenty of information on how this response may be generated via the main olfactory system.

Spoke with Celeste Wirsig earlier today about the gonadotropin releasing hormone neuronal innervation of the nervus

terminalis, which is one way to get from pheromonal input to the luteinizing hormone response. Still plenty of

people willing to debate VNO issues, but not many biologists who care whether or not it exists. Beliner\'s group

has marketing claims that depend on a functional VNO, but they are really the only ones interested in forcing the

issue with chemosensory researchers.

[DrSmellThis]

Helsinki, just in case

you do finish with all those soon,

here is enough for the following month, assuming you explore the links, and

follow obvious leads contained therein. Besides the keywords I gave you, you also want to search for \"Pherin\".



To expand on what I said above vis a vis JVK\'s comments, Berliner and Erox did demonstrate the

basic functionality of the VNO satisfactorily, and have also shown that purported -mones that trigger the human VNO

also trigger activity in areas of the brain that process emotional content (etc.). However, they have not yet traced

and established a causal chain to link all this via an \"AOS\".

If they succeed in doing this, which I

might be more optimistic about than is JVK, it will still remain for researchers to deal with the other issues and

research gaps I mentioned in my first post above. JVK is correct that we need not get all worked up about the VNO,

on the other hand. The standard olfactory connection from purported pheromonal stimuli to GRH and leuteinizing

hormone change is probably good enough for establishing the existence of functional pheromones in mammalian

(including human) research. This claim is rendered more compelling by correlational, self-report studies that show

actual attraction and relevant behavioral responses to purported pheromones. This is because it is too common to

observe changes in hormones without concomitant, clinically significant changes in human behavior, due to the

extreme importance of higher-order, cognitive processing for humans. Notwithstanding, when you put all that together

in your background understanding, many of the anecdotes on this website don\'t sound so outlandish.

Yet

although humans have never needed the VNO to achieve pheromonal communication, the VNO is still potentially

important, as VNO driven reactions would theoretically bypass much of the \"biochemical and higher order

processing,\" and be more \"reptilian,\" so to speak. Such direct, \"more purely and simply neurological\"

responses should indeed be of interest to biologists and psychologists, were they shown to exist (and I think they

will be), as they would be more reflex-like and robust to hormonal fluctuations, and other of the greater number of

elements in the standard olfactory chain of events, as compared to an AOS.

[Helsinki]

Thank you so much guys.

Very helpful and informative, it\'s great you\'ll help someone out.

[Helsinki]

Oh, and I have continued

to TRY to OD on just about everything I have, but after a few days, I can\'t report any difference. (Other than

making my eyes water....)

[DrSmellThis]

Addendum: Researchers

will need to modify their methods in order to establish the existence of VNO effects in the near future; independent

of standard olfactory effects. You can do this without first establishing the path, if your experimental design is

correct. I could easily design the correct method for doing this, as well as addressing the first issues I raised

above, if they have not already done so. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img] Just a few studies would

be sufficient. (Someone would just have to make me a reasonable offer of support, since I\'m not hooked into a

university at this time.) But maybe nobody but Erox cares about the issue, as JVK says. I think this apathy is

\"misplaced\", assuming a long-term, big picture approach. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Perhaps the \"apathy\" is really resignation and resentment in disguise, since Pherin (formerly Erox) has

patents pending on everything under the sun related to this approach (e.g., the experimental procedure for detecting

VNO activity). But there are ways around that, if you know how to navigate the legal minefield while keeping your

balls intact.

[jvkohl]

Conference follow-up: many

presentations this year focus on the main olfactory system processing of pheromones. Getting further and further

away from human VNO and accessory olfactory system, because the VNO is not required for pheromonal effects in other

mammals. Basically the VNO is one of two ways to get from pheromones to a hormone response. Since the hormone

response is demonstrated, there is no controversy this year about a human VNO.

[Helsinki]

I agree, the science of it

all is the most fun. My thoughts include a) obviously the placebo effect b) \"hits\" may coincide with the

menstrual cycle c) when females are LOOKING for males (clubs, bars etc.) or are in such an environment, there may be

better effect.
James, correct me if I\'m wrong, but haven\'t most studies seen a better effect on males when

the females are wearing them? I mean obviously the male dog knows when the female is in heat, they\'re the ones

that respond.

[jvkohl]

</font><blockquote><font

class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
James, correct me if I\'m wrong, but haven\'t most studies seen a better

effect on males when the females are wearing them? I mean obviously the male dog knows when the female is in heat,

they\'re the ones that respond.

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

Typically, the studies are of the

effect on women, though men find the scent associated with fertility more attractive. Matthias Laska presented at

AchemS reiterating that from what is already known about human olfactory acuity and specificity, there is no basis

for the claim that we are microsmatic (poor smellers) as compared to macrosmatic animals (like dogs and rats). In

this regard, I quoted George Dobb (not Dodd) in my book (from something published many years ago). Sooner or later,

people will quit making comparisons based upon what they think, and begin incorporating data from human studies, as

Dr. Laska has done.