Hits and Delivered Phermone Dose

Hi all. I\'m new here, and I\'ve been following Wilde Oscar\'s data gathering with interest because I\'ve been doing something similar to him, but instead of focusing on the cost per ml I\'ve been looking over all the past history and determining what a \"successful\" dose is for each product and the product\'s pheromone concentration. I\'m doing this in hopes of getting the dosage right to start out with (I just got my first set of toys this past week, three days after the order. Great service!)

The results are pretty interesting, and I think provide a guide for product usage. I\'ll spoil the surprise and say that it appears the \"ideal\" dose is about 0.020 to 0.030 mg of pheromones. It\'d be great to get data on androtenone and androstenol separately, but this is all I had to work with.

Anyway, let me know what y\'all think of this.

First of all, let\'s define the units for applying the pheromones.

We have dabs, drops, and sprays. Note that the viscosity of the solution and the type of applicator can change the size of these units (a drop from a fine syringe needle and a drop from my fingertip are very different in size). I\'m using my finger as a \"standard\" here \'cause that\'s what we all use in real life. To measure the units, I used a calibrated 1 milliliter syringe to measure what got dispensed onto my finger or cap.

Dab. This is where one wets the fingertip by holding it over the bottle mouth and tipping the bottle. This was hardest to measure, it comes down to being about 0.01 ml, and no more than 0.02 ml. Measured with a bottle of AE.

Drop. A full-size, free-falling drop from the fingertip measures 0.05 ml. Note that this leaves a partial dab on the fingertip after the drop falls. Measured with a bottle of APC.

Spray. OK, I\'m sure this varies widely, but I measured the spray from my bottle of The Edge into the plastic cap. It\'s 0.13 ml.

---

At this point, I looked over all the past messages looking for dose and \"hit\" reports (and overdose reports, too.) I also calculated (like Wilde Oscar) the pheromone content per ml.

Here\'s the \"consensus\" dosing I uncovered for several products:

The Edge (TE): 0.12mg/ml. one or two sprays.
Alter-Ego (AE): 0.45mg/ml. two to four dabs.
Primal Instinct (PI): 0.5mg/ml. 4 dabs, 1 drop, 2 drops.
Andro 4.2: .14mg/ml. two sprays.

Using the unit measurements from above, and doing the math:

TE: One spray = 0.13ml * 0.12mg/ml = 0.016mg/dose
TE: Two sprays = 0.26ml * 0.12mg/ml = 0.031mg/dose

AE: Two dabs = 0.02ml * 0.45mg/ml = 0.009mg/dose
AE: Four dabs = 0.04ml * 0.45mg/ml = 0.018mg/dose

PI: Four Dabs = 0.04ml * 0.5mg/ml = 0.02mg/dose
PI: 1 drop = 0.05ml * 0.5mg/ml = 0.025mg/dose
PI: 2 drops = 0.1ml * 0.5mg/ml = 0.05mg/dose

Andro: Two sprays = 0.26ml * 0.14mg/ml = 0.036mg/dose.

---

What\'s this all mean? Notice that we\'ve got a range from 0.009mg to 0.05mg, and that it appears the \"preferred\" or recommended dosages are around the 0.02mg range, +/- a few mg, regardless of the products used.

I did more math and message reading, and the overdose range appears to start around 0.04mg/dose. While there\'s some reported major hits at 0.05mg, I think they\'re the exception. There\'s more reported negative hits above 0.04mg than positive 0.05mg hits. Note this is in keeping with the warnings about not using more than one drop of PI.

Note that two sprays of jambat\'s 70/30 APC/NPA mix was reported to be hit-producing, and works out to about .032mg/dose, so this math works well for predicting success with mixes, too. A combinations such as two dabs of AE and a spray of TE puts us at 0.028mg/dose, the high side of the \"hit\" range (but maybe not if we deduct the \'stenol as a different pheromone.)

Interestingly, APC alone, with a supposed content of .05mg/ml (I had a hard time finding data as well Oscar) would require about TEN drops to 0.025mg/dose. That\'s a lot of drops -- but it also consistent with a message reporting hits when there\'s an APC \"overdose.\" On the plus side, it\'s unlikely you\'ll OD using APC. Sounds like with the new APC, you\'ll not OD if you dump the entire bottle on yourself.

In summary, it looks like the target range for delivered dose of pheromones is about 0.02 mg, with a top end around 0.032 mg, and past 0.04mg, you\'re probably OD.

Note that as the stuff wears off, a 0.05mg OD could drop into the high-end hit range.

To help out, whenever you report a hit, please mention what was used and how much (so no one has to ask) and it\'d be nice to know how long it\'d been since you applied the pheromones to let use start to control for that, too.

Scientist

[ September 05, 2001: Message edited by: Scientist ]

[ September 05, 2001: Message edited by: Scientist ]

[ September 05, 2001: Message edited by: Scientist ]

[ September 07, 2001: Message edited by: Scientist ]

Pretty good analysis scientist.

But you know what would be very interesting also is if there is an effectivenes analysis comparing phero use on skin, hair, and clothing.

From past postings it would seem that phero use on clothing offers more bang for the buck, followed by hair and lastly skin, but that is only a subjective oppinion.

What do you think?

Joe

I\'ve seen the same thing in reading the the messages here. I would imagine what\'s happening is that more pheromones are emitted (or shed/evaporate from the user) more quickly when applied to clothing, and less quickly when applied to skin. Presumably clothing this would deliver more phermones to the surrounding environment, increasing hits but also the probability of overdose and the need to \"refresh\" with more pheromones. Not having actually had much experience, I\'d be interested to hear from people here if what they\'ve encountered supports this idea.

Thus far the only possible hit I have had was a guy leaning on me in an unnatural way while I was waiting in line with a date -- and the groups in rest of the line were literally spaced 10\' apart! [img]images/icons/mad.gif[/img]

Would have MUCH prefered the date to do that.

That is very good scientist it has cleared up a lot of ideas in my brain.

We also need to get a look at oil versus alcohol, its good to get some data going here.

The stuff breaks down when one sweats, more in hotter weather less in colder.

Also we might want to get androsterone going here as well as the third pheromone.

Um thinking here, attraction would be an interesting basis for some data as well, seeing as though the aussie producers seem intent on keeping quite on this one.

I wonder if the formula has been upgraded in the last 9 years and the same for andro.

But lets keep this one going, and see where it goes. Keep up the good work everyone.

to scientist,

first of all, it takes alot for me in order to post a comment. So when i saw your findings and research. i just had to write and give thanks.

i nominate the scientist as the dosage meter chairman. keep up the research because we need it. any findings on npa or attraction????

Scientist,

WOW! [img]images/icons/shocked.gif[/img] NICE WORK! [img]images/icons/laugh.gif[/img]

Oscar [img]images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

In reply to: message #277


Actually, I have noticed that pheromones, applied to skin, wear out much faster that if they were applied to clothes. I use APC, and it evaporates about 1.5X faster from skin.


zcat

[ September 06, 2001: Message edited by: zcat ]

Okay, so put some on YOU for the \"now,\" and a shot/drop on the clothing for the \"later.\"

P.S.:
That is some beautiful work, scientist!

Scientist- This is very interesting, if anyone can give us a guideline on how to use this stuff I\'m all for it. Keep it up, I\'m eagerly awaiting your scientific results [img]images/icons/laugh.gif[/img]
http://home.earthlink.net/~joselg

Nice work, Sci-guy, and welcome aboard!

The thing that stood out for me was the amount dispensed in the spray -- 2.5 drops, about 7 dabs. No wonder it\'s so easy to overdose on The Edge!

I think if there\'s an area ripe for experimentation, it\'s at the minimalist range of applications. Any takers? Any experiences there?

Writer Guy

Scientist,

Lure is the only Androstenol-only product I know of for certain.Though some think that PF may be as well,as it\'s a Dr. Dodd creation.

Question-If lure for men is an Androstenol-only product,what\'s in Lure for women?

I had sent you a private message re.TE\'s concentration,but as the notification measures aren\'t working,I guess you haven\'t read it.Go to \"my profile\" at the top of any board page to access PM\'s. [img]images/icons/wink.gif[/img]

Oscar [img]images/icons/laugh.gif[/img]

Exposed or under clothing – it hardly makes any difference. Your logic is a bit faulty (I don’t mean to sound like a bad guy, just trying to help). When you apply the mixture to your skin it does not penetrate into it, and simply stays on the surface. Mixture applied to clothes will be absorbed by the material (just like a sponge). Here is an analogy, a puddle of water on asphalt will evaporate much sooner than the water absorbed by soil. In fact, it has rained here this mourning and asphalt is dry, while soil is still moist.

Also, temperature is directly proportional to evaporation rate, and average body temperature is much higher, compared to average temperature of clothing.

Hope this helps.

zcat

[ September 06, 2001: Message edited by: zcat ]

Thanks for all the insights and calculations, Scientist. I have a feeling your contributions are going to make us all more successful.

About the effects of Androstenol vs Androstenone. I’m currently in a relationship, and we met shortly after PF came out. So most of my “hard” evidence (pun kind-of intended) is with Androstenone. Every girl I ever dated, since using pheros, was “hooked” by either APC of PI.

PF is rumored to have lots of androstenol. If this is true, I could confirm what you said about “pillow talk” and overdosage. Four drops get the desired effect, but even twelve drops get a good reaction (girls become goofy and talkative). Also, my best first dates (not just in terms of getting lucky, but having fun, great conversation, and no stress) have been with PF.

As far as hits go, PF (even at high doses) doesn’t seem to get me the kind of attention that pure androstenone, or androstenone rich formulas do. On the other hand, I feel I can get almost any girl to talk intimately about herself while wearing the stuff.

My impression is that androstenone is a more potent aphrodisiac, while androstenol is more of a mood enhancer.

About phero minimalism... My impression is that your findings represent the apex, in terms of getting hits — any more, or any less, and the quantity of hits drops off. At slightly higher doses, the hits that I get seem to be more intense however: DIHL, blushing, and some very suggestive body language.

Having said that, I’ve conducted many minimalist experiments on my girlfriend; trying to figure out ways to get her hot without consciously smelling the pheros. My results are: three dabs APC, four dabs PF, 1/4 spray Edge (I diluted some with three parts water), two DABs PI (I hold my finger over the spout and get a very tiny dab), three sprays IR, and one dab AE. In most cases, the pheros were applied about two hours before my girlfriend got her first whiff of me. (AE is the only one she still hasn’t noticed, but all the others are still very effective aphrodisiacs.)

scientist
great work
one thouht
i have appliyd the differient products as you have

i came to one inerstesting conclusion the dabs or sprays behind the ears are not as effective as the for arms ???
i cant figure out why may b the hair ejects the pheros slowly in to the air
sci or wild oo your thoughts
im at present trying experiment with nol only products have tryed all he none

a.k.a. --

Thank you, thank you, thank you. You provided exactly the kind of data I needed and it strongly supports some ideas the data was providing that I\'m talking to Oscar about. FYI, with the exception of the dabs of PI, you were putting on .002 to .006 mg of pheromones -- about a tenth to a quarter of the \"usual\" dose.

Thanks for the info about PF as well. It\'s looking more and more like the problem with OD\'ing is with androstenone, and the OD level might even be lower than previously thought.

One question -- at the low doses, how sure are you that your gf\'s being hot for you is the \'mones and not just you or her mood at the moment?

Also, you mention slightly higher does resulting in fewer but more intense hits -- can you tell me what products/doses this happens to you at?

Thanks again, it\'s a great help!

zcat --

You\'re not the bad guy [img]images/icons/wink.gif[/img] You\'re right, my logic is faulty. I think the only thing I can say with certainty is that it\'s a bad idea to put androstenol products on the skin -- and I only suggest it\'s because they\'re get converted by bacteria and/or be diluted or evaporate too quickly.

vj --

I would guess is that dabs behind the ears may not be getting the air circulation that the arms get. It\'s also probably hotter and a more sweat-prone place. Maybe putting the pheromones on the hair near your ears would be better? Hopefully someone else will say, I\'m still trying to figure the right doses out first.

Scientist, thanks a lot for this great research work helping the phero community.

As to the impact of pheros on SKIN or CLOTHES it is not the rate of evaporation, using up our pheros so quickly on the skin. Its the bacteria disintegrating the pheros.
Applied to clothes they last a hell of a lot longer. I had not overdosed (spraying my shirt 2x2 sprays of Attraction). And still two days later a DIHL reaction of a lady quewing in a bacery in front of me!!!

I didn\'t even store my shirt in a plastic bag, just had it inside a drawer. Its a lot of fun, not even remembering it and getting those reactions.

I\'m glad that everyone seems to have liked my tiny bit of research.

Just some quick answers and comments to what\'s been said thus far. Forgive me fore combining everything in one reply but I think it will flow better and help everyone --

Paul:

Regarding oil v. alcohol, I can say with some certainty that any substance using oil as a carrier is going to be released more slowly than with alcohol (ethanol). This is simply because the ethanol evaporates so quickly, and with evaporation will either take more pheromones with it, or leave a concentration of \"loose\" pheromones on whatever surface it was placed on.

FYI, there\'s some evidence that using ethanol for a carrier of phermones has a negative effect. (See http://wwwpsy.uni-muenster.de/inst2/maiworm/pub5.html ) Note that this completely dispells the myth that alcohol damages phermones, but it does support the idea that using alcohol for a carrier is a bad idea. In any case, the study results suggests wait until it\'s evaporated before presenting yourself to women.

Regarding hot weather, I have read quite a few items that suggest androstenone is a bacterial break-down product of anderstenol. Given that it\'s already broken down, I would imaging that what\'s happening is that sweat is simply diluting or washing away the \'none -- I doubt it\'s \"breaking down\" more, since it already is broken, so to speak. Note that sweat would do the same to \'nol, while at the same time making a nice environment for bacterial to convert the \'nol back to \'none.

As I read more, I increasingly get the sense that things might work much better with more androstenol -- after all, it\'s going to become androstenone in time anyway. A few of studies I\'ve read indicate that \'none is often percieved negatively, and is percieved as \"neutral\" only during ovulation. Other studies seem to show more positive effects. Androstenol, on the other hand, seems to only be viewed positively. One more interesting writeup called \'nol the \"pillow talk\" pheromone, and it pretty clearly instills submission and post-coital pair-bonding feelings in women.

zcat:
I wonder if your pheromones wearing out faster on the skin has something to do with the sweating issue? Is the skin under clothing or exposed?

Bubbafero:
I\'ll start reading for npa and attraction, but the two sprays of APC/NPA mix definitely fell into the upper part of the range -- 0.032mg. I\'d argue that 1 1/2 sprays would be closer to the target range.

Writer guy:
I agree the most interesting area for experiments is at the bottom end of the range. Since we\'ve got a \"top end\" where overdose occurs, the minimalist would help determine what the best range of application is. The main thing we need here is reports of hits at low dosages -- since we\'ve got reports of \"no hits\" at all dosages.

The other area that I really, really would like to explore is androstenol v. \'none. I\'m pretty sure that all the overdose effects we\'ve seen come from \'none. My gut feel is that we could go much heavier on the androstenol without any negative effects. Also, despite reports that androstenol stinks, women apparently find androstenol sweet-smelling from the studies I\'ve read, so it\'s probably a better candidate to up the dosage on.

Does anyone know of any androstenol-only products? (Especially if stone labs has one?)

Scientist

Scientist,

Bravo! It was only a matter of time before someone really broke down the ratio of success Vs un-success. And it seems you did a pretty thorough job of testing and measuring (Damn I should have paid attention in Mathematics...lol) Thanks again for the great insight.
TCO

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif\">quote:</font><HR>Its the bacteria disintegrating the pheros.
Applied to clothes they last a hell of a lot longer. I had not overdosed (spraying my shirt 2x2 sprays of Attraction). And still two days later a DIHL reaction of a lady quewing in a bacery in front of me!!!
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Funny thing, I had just posted the previous note about sweat when this showed. Your experience is very insightful for a couple reasons. Attraction has androstenol, and this supports the theory that it\'s harder to OD on \'nol. It also supports the sweat theory -- and suggests that for maximum effect, androstenol products probably shouldn\'t be applied to the skin. (Hair and clothing would probably be OK sites.)

Scientist

As to prices of components in catalogs (Androstenone and Androstenol):
Chemist informed us lately, that 5mg Androstenone cost 35.00 US$, wheras 5mg Androstenol cost about 0.17 US$ only (yes, really, just 17 cents!).

Thats why products containing Androstenone have higher production costs than those made of Androstenol.
Cheapest would be to buy and use basic Androstenol only. As it is said to break down later to Androstenone anyway, it would be cheaper than buying products with that expensive stuff...
How about you, Bruce, offering plain solutions with alcohol-based And\'ol, produced and botteled for your company? Sold at good prices to your loyal customers?
P.E. [img]images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

[ September 07, 2001: Message edited by: Phero Explorer ]

Scientist,

Most of my overdoses have been with combos, many of which I\'ve forgotten. As far as single products:

I\'ve gone up to 10 - 12 dabs of APC, over the course of a day (there\'s too much fragrance to overdose all at once) and had some girls do 180\'s to check me out. One girl at a mall followed me to one of the shops and stared at me through the glass. It was creepy.

A couple of times I tried two drops of PI, and some older women get the DIHL or stand uncomfortably close to me in lines.

With three sprays of TE, I\'ve had girls blush when I talk to them, cashiers complain that I\'m distracting them, and several girls that couldn\'t take their eyes off of me, even after I stared back at them without smiling.

With four dabs AE, I\'ve had a few (mostly overweight) girls start conversations with me (and not want to stop talking). I\'ve also had a few very long DIHL. Once I was adding cream sugar to my coffe, at a coffeeshop, and a pretty girl standing about two feet away stared at me all the while. I caught her eyes when I sippied my coffee and she kept staring. Then I smiled and she got a kind of smirk and walked away as if she was mad.

Combos that I remember:
Many posters had good luck with two dabs of AE on the neck and a spray of TE on the chest. I tried it many times before I concluded that one dabe of AE, on the wrist, made a better combo. But, at two dabs, I observed several girls that couldn\'t seem to get their eyes off of me. Even more strangly, I observed some girls sitting within sniffing range that (to my perception, of course) seemed too turned on to sit still in their seats. But, then again, maybe they were itching to get away from me.

As to how do I know my girlfriend is turned on by pheros... With AE, she has initiated sex in totaly uncharacteristic ways: groping me in a theater, undressing me while we watch TV, and, once, she went down on me while I was sleeping. [img]images/icons/laugh.gif[/img] All this with just one dab in my pubic hair.

With the other products, it\'s totaly subjective. I consider myself good at reading body language, and that\'s all I\'m going by. Subtle things like her smile when she opens the door, ways she touches me when we sit together... Sorry, nothing I could operationalize.

[ September 07, 2001: Message edited by: a.k.a. ]

a.k.a. --

Wow. Thanks. More great data. I wish I was getting reations like that -- heck, I wish that at any point in my life I\'d seen something like that. Safe to say we can call these hits, expecially the creepy mall girl watching you through the glass. Hopefully you\'re not a male model, or that might throw the data off a bit. [img]images/icons/laugh.gif[/img]

Your experiences -- both minimalist and OD -- really support well something that Oscar had suggested about best doses being a bit on the lower side.

Here\'s what yours doses come out to:

Your \"minimalist\" doses range from 0.002 to 0.006 mg of pheromones (\'cept for the PI, where two dabs are 0.014mg). When I looked through all the past messages, you, writer guy, and a few others reported hits consistently at these \"low\" doses, especially if a Significant Other is involved.

Your \"overdose\" range can probably teach us a thing or two. Twelve drops of APC -- that\'s 0.030 mg. Four dabs of AE is 0.025 mg. A dab of AE and a spray of TE is 0.021 mg. These \"overdoses\" are in the center of what most people are reporting as their \"basic\" dose -- which means that they\'re likely chronically overdosing. I\'m going to make a wild guess and say that for you (and probably the rest of us) maybe 0.015 mg is best -- a couple dabs of AE, or one spray of TE, or two drops of Andro, or one drop of attraction would get you into that range. What do you normally use as a dose?

Now the two drops of PI and three sprays of TE are 0.05 mg and 0.047 mg. These are doses slightly beyond where other people have seen their pheromones stop working at (but others have reported pretty wild hits as well at this level, but the reliability of hits seems to drop lots when you go past 0.040mg.)

As far as know the pheromones are working on you gf: having her ripping your clothes off and waking up to a bj I think qualifies as abnormal behavior, so you have me convinced!

Thanks again for the help, a.k.a.

If any one else wants to provide a quick little after-action report history on their phero usage, please jump in! The more information I have, the better I can figure out the best doses!

I need to know WHOA!

W - What you were using
H - How much you used
O - On for how long (if you remember)
A - Applied where? Skin? Shirt? Hair?
! - Excitement, what exciting thing happened?

Hi Scientist,

I have some interesting experiences wearing Attraction alone in this week:

On Thursday I went to work wearing one spray near each earlobe, one on the back of my neck and another on my tie.

Firstly I went to a restaurant to have some lunch. There I saw no reactions. Then I went to my office building. In the elevator a beatiful young women in your early twenties keeps staring at me [img]images/icons/laugh.gif[/img]

Afterwards I came in my office and during all my work my secretary (sadly unatractive)behave awkwardly goofy and sweet towards me and keeps glassy-eyed whenever speaking with me [img]images/icons/shocked.gif[/img] [img]images/icons/shocked.gif[/img] [img]images/icons/shocked.gif[/img]

Scientist,

Great great info....this entire thread has been excellent, and the stuff about -one or -ol products and who should use which is also great.

Just wondering if you had any more data for other products than these you already posted:

The Edge (TE): 0.12mg/ml. one or two sprays.
Alter-Ego (AE): 0.45mg/ml. two to four dabs.
Primal Instinct (PI): 0.5mg/ml. 4 dabs, 1 drop, 2 drops.
Andro 4.2: .14mg/ml. two sprays.

Do you have anything like the above for Pheromol Factor, APC, or Attraction? I\'m very interested in especially PF and Attraction, as these have more androstenol and it seems as if I may be needing that more than androstenone.

Thanks!!
Jad

Scientist,

I\'ve been using TE since the beginning of July. All in all I\'m not satisfied with the reactions I got yet. There were some smiles and glances, but nothing major. Normally I always applied 1 spray to different spots.

Maybe even that single spray (0,016 mg) is too much for me. I\'m 18 and I think at this age the natural phero production is at it\'s peak. The best reactions I got happened always about 5 hours after spraying TE on my clothes. It seems like after a part of the pheros has evaporated, the reactions get better. But last weekend the situation was the exact opposite. I went to a indoor conert... very hot inside. Before I had applied 1 spray under one armpit. At the beginning I recognized 2-3 smiles but that was all (normal \"hit level\" for me). After one hour, the pheros didn\'t have an effect any longer - NO reactions. Seems like the bacteria disintegrated TE. What\'s in your opinion the right amount of TE for a 18 year old?

Ren

jjs --

I\'m by no means an expert on dosages yet. When I went through the prior messages, I didn\'t find that much about other products. However, a.k.a. gave us some new data earlier, and we do have an emerging guideline.

I only have concentration data for APC and attraction, not the PF. Thanks to Wilde Oscar that we have this available now!

Attraction is 0.293mg/ml, and APC is 0.05 mg/ml but may be much lower than that now.

Based on a target dose of 0.015mg (and this STILL might be high) you\'d use 1 drop of attraction (note that\'s DROP, not SPRAY. Attraction appears to overdose you right out of the bottle!) OR 6 drops of APC. I think the smell of APC is going to stop you from using too much all by itself.

A I was theorizing earlier, it\'s probably harder to OD with \'nol, which attraction has a lot of, so if you did use 1 spray, you\'d be at 0.014mg of \'none (which is probably in the OK zone still) and 0.023mg of \'nol. I\'d be very reluctant to use more than one spray of attraction based on what I\'ve discovered thus far. I just ordered some, and my plan is to try either 1 drop or 5 dabs of it.


Ren:

I\'m still a newbie here and I\'m sure the old-timers would have something to say, but as a \"Scientist\" I\'d say trust your observations. If you\'re seeing improvement after your application has worn off some, I\'d say that\'s telling you you\'re using too much when you start out.

Also, if you\'re spraying TE on your clothes, I doubt it\'s bacteria that\'s breaking it down -- it\'s either wearing off, or you might be OD-ing.

If the VNO (the sense gland that picks up pheromones) acts like the nose or any other human sense, it probably provides and early indication of pheromones and then shuts down in an overdose situation. Recall when you\'ve been in someplace really stinky or really loud -- at first you smell everything and it really bothers you, or your ears hurt. A couple hours later you get used to it, and you don\'t smell things as badly (or at all) and in the case of hearing, it doesn\'t hurt any more but you can\'t hear quiet sounds.

In an enclosed area you could easily be overloading women\'s VNO (especially if you were somewhat nearby). At first they might sense the \'mones, but later not because the intense dose has shut down their VNO for a while.

Everything I\'ve read has indicated at 18 you\'re a veritable pheromone factory, and that production drops off a lot by the time you\'re in your late 20s and 30s. If it were me I\'d back way off the dosage. Maybe get another sprayer and try mixing up a half-strength batch of TE (1/2 TE, 1/2 water or ethanol) and use that for a while.

A rule of thumb I\'ve been thinking about is \"When in doubt, mellow out\" -- if a dose isn\'t working, cut it in half.

We\'ve got a fair bit of evidence now that with the exception of APC, you can\'t underdose -- you might be moving away from the ideal, but it\'s better to find something that works and then improve on it that overdose from the start and keep increasing the dosage only to never have it work.

[ September 08, 2001: Message edited by: Scientist ]

Scientist,

Thanks again for some great info...I guess my problem is I find it really hard not to put at least one or two sprays of Edge or Attraction and then some dabs of AE, or APC...
It\'s because I can only somewhat smell even the products that are scented, so I worry that women will never smell the pheromones unless I get right up next to them or put enough on.

It might just take a while to convince myself to start using a lot less of everything, and I\'m going to experiment with one product at a time, especially the ones with androstenol in them. Does this sound like a good plan?

Until now, I\'ve been trying APC, The Edge, Attraction, Alter Ego, Andro 4.2, and a tiny bit of PF.....all with no significant results. I\'ve been trying them in combos or by themselves, and I really haven\'t gotten anything new from women I know or strangers.

Hoping I\'ll figure it out soon,
thanks again,
Jad

Hi All,
The culture you are living in has a LOT to do with what is effective or even just tollerable to others. Here in Japan everyone stays well scrubed and is very BO conscious, so I have to be very careful. They even have a half-joking expression here \"oji kusai\" (middle age stink) to refer to the way middle aged men smell, and you find guys here in that age range are very fearful of being branded as having that \"disease\" so they douse themsleves with aftershave that often smells worse than BO to me.

So, if I use Edge on my armpits, I definitely make it the sandalwood or use some deodorant. Also, by the end of the day on a hot day, I often take a shower if I have done the \"pit trick\" as I find I am getting pretty \"ripe\". So, to tell the truth, if a couple of sprays to the arm pits, indoors when it is hot and humid suddenly \"stop working\" I would bet dollars to doughnuts that the problem is BO blowout, NOT that that pheros suddenly stopped smelling. Remember that about 24% of all American men can not smell androstenone at ALL, and many more do not smell it nearly as well as the girl sitting next to you. ALSO, keep in mind that we get very used to smells that are under our nose day in and day out, and simply start to screen them out. Have you ever noticed how your own home seems to have a very peculiar aroma to it when you just walk into it after a 3 week vacation. Chances are it always smells that way, but your brain screens it out since your are smelling it every day.

So, moral of the story:
A. Less is often more and the ideal amount varies GREATLY from one person to another.
B. Rotate products and fragrances.
C. Give the pheros a break now and then. Guys often notice better results the day AFTER their last application when they take a break and have been using more than their ideal dose.
D. Be especially careful with the pit trick.

IMHO,
Bruce

attraction has given me spuradic results with one spray. it actually got more hits from the males, which i don\'t care for. I\'ll try using a few dabs of attraction for a while.

bump !!

Scientist,

Seems to me one could take your initial analysis and contruct a neat little web application and tracking system to narrow the effective results range for a person... Might even be able to gather useful measurements in a mass study to gauge the effectiveness and do some statistical work with a bunch of volunteers...

Neat bit of work there on the first post back in September...

Jon

bump. this is very helpful for us newbies.