Pretty decent movie
but he's preaching to the choir, hope it works though but the alternative seems dismal to me. Call me Mr
Optimism!!!
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Pretty decent movie
but he's preaching to the choir, hope it works though but the alternative seems dismal to me. Call me Mr
Optimism!!!
I must be in the choir, because I think it rocks.Quote:
Originally Posted by koolking1
I laughed, cried,
cheered, cursed and left the theater feeling like I’d really gotten my money's worth. (No small compliment given
today’s ticket prices.)
Of course I would never recommend this to anybody that honestly believes W is doing a
good job for national security. I imagine anybody coming at it from that perspective would experience this film as a
relentless barrage of lies and slander, viciously aimed at a man that is only doing his best under the worst of
circumstances.
But if you’re even the least bit skeptical about the views being broadcast on the major news
networks, this film will give you something to think about. At the very least, you will see the faces of those who
profit most and those who suffer most from Bush’s policies. Hopefully this will motivate people to ask
“Why?”.
All politics aside. I think it was an excellent piece of film-making. Moore crammed a lot of
information and opinions into a relatively short time frame, and (unlike his previous films) he did it in an easy to
follow and systematic manner. There were many evocative moments, expertly captured, and an artful balance of
seemingly incongruent emotions. Very tight editing, quick paced, and extremely provocative.
It’s a shame that
only 800 some theaters are showing it. (I also feel the R rating was undeserved: two minutes of rock lyrics that
would have earned a Parental Advisory on CD and images of war that are no worst than the stuff being broadcast on
every major news outlet outside of the US.)
Precisely.Quote:
Originally Posted by koolking1
Yup.Quote:
Originally Posted by a.k.a.
Nice review AKA!
I
guess its not objective analysis like I had said on another thread but I wouldn't go so far as to say its
propaganda as I've heard numerous times from major media outlets. The embeded journalists were as close as you
could get to organised government propaganda while the so called "major combat" portion of this war was taking
place. I'm chomping at the bit to see this movie...
I read
a review of F-9/11 in the local alternative weekly. As a liberal, trendy tabloid, it was laudatory, of course, but
largely on political common ground.
The author did quote Pauline Kael, the renowed movie critic and author
of "I Lost it at the Movies" in her review of an earlier Moore movie, "Roger and Me". She admitted that she had
some laughs at Roger Smith, the then CEO of General Motors and target of the film.
"But the film I saw was
shallow and facetious, a piece of gonzo demagoguery that made me feel cheap for laughing."
That's the way I felt too about "Roger and Me" and why I'll not see F-9/11.
I just thought I'd throw this
into the mix...I agree with Icke in that it doesn't go far enough in exposing the multitude of holes that the
"Official Stroy" has in it...Where is the exposure of the PNAC (Project for a New American Century) paper drafted by
the neocons and their stated need to have a "New Pearl Harbor" to initiate their imperialist agenda?
FAHREN-HYPE 9/11
MOORE MOVIE BIGGER ON PROMOTION
THAN CUTTING EDGE CONTENT
By David Icke
I've just watched the Michael Moore documentary, Fahrenheit 9/11, on its first day of public screening in the
United States.
First of all it is great to see that information kept from the people, basic as it is in this
documentary, is being made available to counter some of the massive bias in the mainstream media. To Americans who
know nothing about the political and media manipulation it will be a revelation, but those who have done a modicum
of research will find little here to increase their awareness.
The documentary misses an enormous
opportunity to reveal the true scale of the conspiracy behind 9/11 and current events. It reveals that Bush is a
lazy, incompetent fool; that the bombing of Iraq caused horrific civilian casualties; that US troops are being
killed and maimed to defend an invasion justified by a Big Lie; that the parents of those civilians and troops
suffer unspeakable emotional trauma from losing their loved ones; that Bush was scammed into power at the last
election; that the Bush family has serious connections to the Bin Laden family and the Saudi royals; and that the
corporate cartels make fortunes both from supplying the weapons to destroy cities and infrastructure and then by
're-building' the devastated countries and seizing control of their resources, like oil.
All this
information needed to be included, of course, but it is widely available either by scanning a vast stream of
Internet sites or often even through some parts of the mainstream media. In the case of Bush being a lazy,
incompetent fool, you only need your eyes and a few brain cells.
I have seen BBC documentaries about the
government/media slanting of the invasion of Iraq and the way the U.S. authorities are targeting the poor and
jobless to join the military that tell the same story that Moore does.
Yes, it is good that Americans are
getting a chance to see such material, but to justify the colossal hype this documentary has received it surely
should have gone much further and produced background that would never be found in any mainstream media source.
After all, it cannot be claimed that such information is not available to Michael Moore.
Most disappointing
was the way he accepts and perpetutates the official 9/11 story that it was orchestrated by Osama bin Laden via 19
Arab terrorists, mostly Saudis, who learned to fly jumbo jets at one engine, two-seater, flying schools. This is
blatantly ludicrous and the information to expose such nonsense can, once again, be found at a long list of 9/11
websites and books.
In fact, I sent a copy of Alice in Wonderland and the World Trade Center Disaster to
Michael Moore some 18 months or so ago when he was speaking in London. Some of the most basic information in the
book and on the Internet is included in the film, but the most important background to 9/11 is not even
mentioned.
As with Bowling for Columbine, Moore picks an easy and obvious target while often massively
missing the point. Getting rid of Bush is not going to change anything except the rhetoric and the presentation. The
agenda will continue whichever of them should win. Where was the fact that both Bush and Kerry are initiates of the
same elite and Skull and Bones Society, for example, which both refuse to talk about?
Any suggestion that
Iraq was about more than just oil and money or that there is a conspiracy behind world events is not even mentioned,
except for one contributor who tells us that there is no conspiracy to control the world. It is all just about
money, he said.
Where was the story of the Project for the New American Century and its document that sets
out the very agenda for global conquest involving Iraq, Iran, North Korea and China, etc., which the Bush
administration has been slavishly following since it came to power under the control of the very people behind the
PNAC? Where was the fact that the document said a year before 9/11 that its agenda would be slow to unfold 'absent
some catastrophic and catalysing event like a new Pearl Harbor' and that after the 'new Pearl Harbor' of 9/11
those horrific attacks have been used to rapidly advance the PNAC agenda?
These were among many such glaring
omissions.
I am delighted the movie is out there, disappointing as I found the depth of research, but the
danger is that people will think they now know the information that has been kept from them and therefore fail to
realise that Moore has about 2% of the real background to global events and control. Or that they will focus
themselves on targeting and removing Bush when he is just a puppet and Kerry would be another.
Outside the
theatre where I watched the documentary there were activists seeking to use it to attract support for anti-Bush
campaigns and to register to vote when the system is so rigged that voting is a quaint irrelevance.
Michael
Moore could have used his high public profile and film-making resources to show people the far more fundamental
background to global control, the emerging global fascist state, and the real road to freedom.
Instead,
unless people realise this is only part - and a small part - of the story behind global events this movie will lead
them into another cul-de-sac.
Fahrenheit 9/11 could have been a fantastic contribution to human understanding
of the forces that manipulate the global population. Instead, I thought it was far too timid, limited and
one-dimensional.
It is worth seeing if you know nothing of the world beyond the official story, but what an
opportunity lost.
Welcome back Whitehall! Your
presence was sorely missed! :)
So what course of action would Mr.
Icke have us take in November?
Vote for Sponge Bob SquareQuote:
Originally Posted by Holmes
Pants...:)
Seriously dont vote...If nobody votes it a stands as a referendum that the current system is
completely broken & bankrupt. I love it when MTV & these other outlets try to instill a sense amongst the
population (especially the young)that to "vote" is fulfilling some kind of prideful civic duty and that we should
feel proud as Americans to have this glorious privilege...
First off: The people vote for electors in the
Electoral College & they decide who is going to be the next head of state, not the people...& secondly the whole
thing is rigged which was evidenced the last time around in 2000.
To be honest I really dont know what
Icke's personal stand on Nov 2004 is, these are just my own feelings on the matter.
Obviously there wasn't going
to be enough conspiracy theory in the film for Icke. He has killed whatever potential his own ideas might
have had for people by stubbornly attaching them to "lizards"! He should make his own film with all that.
Yet,
there really aren't enough "alternative" news items in the mainstream media. This is an obvious, huge
problem in our culture (not only ours). The amount of truly first-rate and crucial information about our current
government that we haven't been exposed to, and yet should be, seems truly vast to me -- way moreso than for any
other administration in my lifetime. My family in the midwest seemingly knows of no reason to be angry at our
government for anything, and they "watch the news" every night. Alternative information is a bit easier to come by
in the Pacific Northwest.
Farenheit seems an important film for and within the current world dialogue, and
apparently a well-made film, judging from the reviews so far. Staying in touch with the current national and
international dialogue should be enough of a benefit for those who see it. I'd think anyone who likes to stay open
minded would want to consider the alternative information it offers as well.
But I can understand that
conservatives have been tempted to prejudge it as "worthless propaganda and lies". I'm saddened that Moore has
mishandled some information in the past, as Whitehall points out; as this "Karma" is subtracting from the potential
impact of Farenheit.
Still, I'll be seeing the film soon.
It's definitely worth
seeing but for someone who does read the alternative news widely available on the internet, it will seem somewhat
lacking in many respects. We still need a viable 3rd party and it seems that once again I'll have no one to vote
for. I did vote in the Dem primary but that too was wasted. Perhaps to make a point, it might be a grand idea to
have a vote for "nobody running".
I love it when the Lizards get singled out for so much incredulity...Let me see: Jesus,Quote:
Originally Posted by DrSmellThis
Mohammed, Jeovah, Buddah, Lizards...they're all equally plausible as far as I can see...
I liked some of
"Bowling for Columbine", Moore's gun control screed (I've been waiting to use that word)...Obviously the grilling
he gave Charleton Heston at the end was a bit overkill & I think it backfired on him...Overall I think all of Moores
flicks are meant as a "tounge in cheek" treatment of some very serious issues...I think he does this in attempt to
engage as broad an audience as possible, but he risks coming across as being condescending, so I think he does
alienate some...
Personally I'm against gun control...Hitler, Stalin & most dictators were & are in favor of
it because the last thing they want is an armed populace able to defend themselves...
For
those of you who have seen or plan to see F-9/11, compare it to "Triumph of the Will" by Leni Reifenstahl. The
latter is probably the most renown (and notorious) propaganda film ever made.
Setting aside the issue of
subject personalities, "Triumph" is a more honest, better-made film!
Hard to beat. (Subject personalities aside.)Quote:
Originally Posted by Whitehall
I can't disagree, because I
haven't seen either film. ;)
I saw Micheal Moore on the Tavis
Smiley show last night. It was nice to see an intelligent, humble liberal on TV. Much better than Al Franken,
whose main goal is to piss off conservatives rather than do anything productive. Moore also has the lastest PLayboy
interview, which I haven't read yet. I might after seeing him last night.
I LOVED the thing! Didn't tell me
anything I didn't know but... sure was good hearing it from Moore! Good thing we bought our tickets on line, BTW--
long lines, sold-out shows.
Well here is a movie coming out
this summer on Moore. Interesting huh! http://www.pherolibrary.com/forum/im...es/ls/rofl.gif
http://www.michaelmoorehatesamerica.com
Yeah..Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Tego
I think there's a book too.. "Michael Moore is a Dumb Fat White Guy".. somethinh like that.
Yeah,Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Tego
the anti-Moore film festival. It had to happen.
These people should show their movies at one of those popular
Christian heavy metal festivals I've been hearing so much about.
MICHAEL MOORE IS A COMPULSIVE
LIAR. This is not hard evidence, but if you think about it, it's like whenever he doesn't get his way, he makes up
some lie to make those people look bad. This was said on the Howard Stern Show, just summarized:
Moore had a
contract for financial backing for the movie, and the Republicans put pressure on the guy to pull out, and he did.
But then Miramax (a Disney company) came in and financed the movie, but Disney later said they wouldn't distribute
it. Moore revealed for the first time that Disney has ties to the Saudi Royal family.
AMAZING! He works with
Disney and never tells anyone about their "connections" but now that they don't produce his movie, Disney all of a
sudden has a connection to the Saudi Royal family. It seems to me that all of Moore's enemies are friends with the
Saudi Royal family... geez Michael, if you're going to make up a lie (when doesn't he?) at least change them up a
little.
It said that he told Stern that he tried to reveal this before, but they were edited out. How
convinient, another stupid lie.
Sounds a lot like the current administration.Quote:
Originally Posted by manchorito
(Just add oil.)
Those damn lizards..... I guess ya just can'tQuote:
Originally Posted by Holmes
trust anyone these days:think:
Just saw the movie.
As far as I could tell, the point of the documentary was something like this:
We cracked a window and let in a
predator. It really happened.
George W. Bush is absolutely jacking off with the bodies, lives and freedoms of
the innocent; here and abroad. Indeed, our Earth is nothing more than fuel for Mr. Bush's gas-powered pocket pussy.
And his circle of jerks.
With every arrogant word, this predator's eyes betray, and scream soulless,
sinister bluster of historic proportion. It is all a joke in his viral mind.
There is Hitler; Mussolini;
Stalin.
Bush.
Good, gentle people of America, wake up. Wake up and be strong. In this situation
your political preference shouldn't matter. Your children, and the rest of the human race need you. Now.
Notwithstanding past criticisms, Moore seems essentially beyond reproach in this well documented,
sickening, and excellent film.
Please see it if you haven't!
VeryQuote:
Originally Posted by DrSmellThis
succinct synopsis DST...I agree with your comments...
This is a good country full of good people who would be
appalled at what really goes on in our name within the international community...It's time for the good people of
this country to take it back!
"There is Hitler; Mussolini;
Stalin.
Bush."
This is pure poppycock! The strategic problems facing the USA are real and dangerous.
We've sat on our thumbs for over a decade while the cash payments for our increasing addiction to Mid-East oil are
funding a group of people eager to kill and subjugate us all.
Worst, our increasing demand for energy and the
increasing competition from other rising societies will be making the crisis arising from oil's depletion that much
more painful. We are approaching a point of inflection in human history and Bush's active strategy is the best
idea out there for dealing with it.
I've never met a perfect political leader and never will. Bush is not
perfect but is our best hope.
Likening Bush to the great evil men of the 20th century shows a lack of
critical thinking and an adolescent emotionalism.
DST, I expected better from you.
Well, I honestly felt a little
sad making that post, Whitehall, in part because I knew that would be your reaction, and I hate making extreme
statements due to the divisions they evoke. But I have to call it like I see it sometimes, and there is
currently a crisis; an emergency. I don't think it's lack of critical thinking, though it may well be "outside the
box" critical thinking. I don't like the quality of available information in conservative culture in recent years,
and I don't recommend anyone to fish from that news pond. I've tried to see Bush's side of it throughout (though
I don't trust his presentation that is it is really his own side of it), but Moore's film did help me put together
some things in my own mind that did get the emotions flowing. Rather than "adolescent", the emotions are an
approproate adult reaction to Bush sending so many people to their deaths for essentially narcissistic
reasons. Further, he just literally let Bin Laden go. He's not "trying", and is not concerned with anyone else's
best interest. He has ruined our relationships with the rest of the planet, most of which was our potential ally
(That was one 9/11 opportunity he blew big time.). I am a human being and have strong emotions about these kinds of
things. He is a corrupt, selfish, personality disordered man with a lot of power, not a mere Republican with
policy differences! (Incidentally, as a psychologist with a lot of experience working with the mentally ill, I can
see pathology clearly in his eyes, mannerisms and posture! Get a DSM-IV and look up Axis-II disorders.) He is
not a Colin Powell (who I'm suprised hasn't resigned) or Jack Kemp. The war was not just a mistake on Bush's
part. I made a mistake when I gave him the benefit of the doubt. It wasn't just the CIA's fault. They were
telling him what he essentially ordered them to. It was all deliberate from the beginning. I voted for Reagan for
"strategic threat" reasons, since Soviet nuke missiles were pointed "everywhere and it's neighbor"; but in this
case I cannot see where Bush represents hope in that regard, to put it mildly. Bush has been resoundingly
ineffective in fighting terrorism, due to his narrowness, small mindedness, lack of conscience, and narcissism.
Terrorism has unequivocally gotten worse. The Bushes, their businesses, their politics, and their interests have
long been funded by Saudis (e.g., the Bin Ladens), who own close to 7% of this country(!), mostly in energy (e.g,
the Bush family's oil companies) and communications investments (hence someone's Disney comments in the other
thread). Whose best interest does Bush hold? Energy is your field, and I very much respect that you have some good
information on it. I listen to your opinions. I do know we're too dependent on foreign oil, and that the
supply/demand situation is coming to a crisis. Our relationships with those who produce oil have not improved,
though. We do now have greater access to Afghani and Iraqi oil and natural gas, as we invaded those
countries and installed governments, but that is hardly success in the big picture, and the long-term picture, of
energy. But it also should not just be about energy and oil.
At least you understand what it’sQuote:
Originally Posted by Whitehall
all about. The industrialized world has been enjoying a technological boom since Rockefeler dug his first well.
Today practically everything that defines our standard of living (from food, to clothing, to shelter, to tourism and
entertainment) is dependent on cheap, plentiful oil. Someday, of course, it’ll all run out. Very soon (I’ve read
estimates ranging from 2 -10 years) demand is going to exceed supply (measured in terms of how quickly it can be
pumped out of the ground — not actual reserves).
What used to be a buyer’s market is destined to be a
sellers market. Naturally, the oil rich Arab nations can’t wait.
I’ll give the devil his due. At least Bush
HAS a comprehensive energy policy. Clinton never even bothered. He’s even thrown some money into research and some
tax credits for alternative technologies.
The first problem is that the whole package is premised on a
significant rise in US demand. You and I have already had the conservation debate (If I may sum it up, you believe a
significant reduction in current consumption rates is unrealistic, I believe current consumption rates are
unsustainable — and consequently unrealistic in the long run.), so I won’t beat a dead horse. Let’s just agree that
this aspect of the Bush plan does not in itself make him a Hitler. But, given the fact that there simply won’t be
enough to go around, this does imply a problematic attitude towards the rest of the world.
When military
strategists start talking about “Full Spectrum Dominance”, and when you dig through the DOD & Pentagon web sites to
figure out what this is about, you discover that this administration is fully determined to rule the planet. To have
its greedy little hands into every little pie. That’s one giant step closer to Hitler/Stalin/Mussolini.
“Fascism” comes from the Italian word “fascio” meaning “bundle”. The symbol for Mussolini’s party was a bundle of
sticks tied around a big axe. This was supposed to symbolize the nation’s most powerful industries tied together
around an all-powerful military. Look at how the Bush administration has welded energy interests to military
expansion and you’ll find another big similarity.
After WWII a bunch of old Nazis went to trial for
attacking their neighbors without provocation. Many of them denied that they were the aggressors, claiming that they
were making a pre-emptive strike against potential threats. Just like Bush did with Iraq.
Stalin instituted a
program whereby neighbors were encouraged to report suspicious individuals to the KGB. The Office of Homeland
Security has instituted a similar program.
Stalin invented the detention center (where political undesirables
can sit and rot with no hope of legal recourse), Hitler made it infamous. The Bush gang has given us Guantanamo and
the Iraqi internment camps.
Hitler and Mussolini dissolved the parliament. There was a recent vote on a House
bill (HR 4754) that sought to block a section of the Patriot Act that lets authorities get special court orders
requiring book dealers, libraries etc. to surrender records — such as book purchases and internet sites visited on a
library computer. Bush threatened to veto it. The initial vote was 220 for and 200 against. But GOP leaders kept the
vote open for 23 minutes beyond the customary 15 minute roll call while they persuaded 10 Republicans to toe the
party line and change their vote. Consequently the bill failed.
Do we really want to see what another four
years of this administration might bring?
While I asserted that Fahrenheit 9/11 was meticulously documented, a few of you suggested it might be
largely untrue.
So for everyone who still wonders about the factuality of Moore's documentary, here is a list
of journalistic references, respective to the factual context of each major moment in the film; provided by the
filmmaker. A virtual narrative account of the film, it is a fascinating read in it's own right (though the actual
footage adds an immeasurable amount, of course).
http://www.michaelmoore.com/warroom/f911notes/
I'd heard that Fahrenheit 9/11
was well documented. I'm glad they did this...
Dubya is hopefully history in Nov...Baring some last minute
trickery like postponing the elections or bringing up Bin Laden from the White House Basement :)