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View Full Version : 2nd-graders caught in murder plot?!



Sexyredhead
03-18-2004, 06:58 PM
I really don\'t think they totally realize what they were planning to do, but still.

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif

Three Boys

Arrested in Plot to Shoot Third Grader

Thursday, March 18, 2004

FORSYTH, Mont.: Two second-grade boys and

an 11-year-old schoolmate were arrested after they buried a loaded handgun in a playground sandbox and plotted to

shoot and stab a third-grade girl during recess, authorities said Thursday.



Sheriff Tim Fulton said the

boys intended to harm the young girl because she had teased two of them.

The plot included a .22-caliber

revolver and a boxently brought the weapons from home to school on Wednesday morning, prosecutor Michael Hayworth

said. The intent was to assault the girl over the recess hour that day, he said.

\"You think about what could

have happened. It could have been ugly,\" said Brenda Stabelfeldt, who has a daughter in the fifth grade and went

to the school over the lunch hour Thursday to give the girl a hug.

Fulton said classmate of the two younger

boys, both 8, was the one who alerted the school of the plot.

\"I need to commend that young man for such a

brave act,\" the sheriff said. \"He saved the lives of who knows how many people.\"

The boys were identified

in court records as Klint Cook and Levi Strait, both second-graders, and Blake Belgarde, a fifth-grader. They were

charged Thursday in juvenile court with conspiracy to commit assault with a weapon.

In Montana (search), the

names of juvenile suspects are public if the crimes they are accused of committing are felonies in adult court.



Forsyth (search) is about 100 miles east of (search). The school has about 200 students in kindergarten through

the sixth grade.

\"Needless to say, it is a frightening experience for a community and our schools,\"

Superintendent Dave Shreeve said. \"We believe it\'s an isolated incident but it does bring into reality that

this can happen in any place at any time.\"

Sagacious1420
03-18-2004, 08:06 PM
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

bundyburger
03-19-2004, 05:20 AM
The 2nd graders, yeah sure, they may not understand what they were doing. The brain, I thought, was

fully developed by 11 or 12 years old and would know right from wrong and the consequences of what was about to

happen.

Fricken scary anyway. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif

EXIT63
03-19-2004, 05:27 AM
Okay,

So how come the gun owning parents weren\'t arrested?

Sexyredhead
03-19-2004, 05:55 AM
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Okay,

So how come the gun owning

parents weren\'t arrested?

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

Do you think they should\'ve been?

belgareth
03-19-2004, 06:18 AM
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
</font><blockquote><font

class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Okay,

So how come the gun owning parents weren\'t arrested?

<hr

/></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

Do you think they should\'ve been?

<hr /></blockquote><font

class=\"post\">

If the gun and ammunition was where a child could get a hold of it, YES!

I am not anti-gun

whatsoever and own several myself. However, there is a responsibility that goes with owning a firearm.

Elana
03-19-2004, 06:20 AM
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
</font><blockquote><font

class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Okay,

So how come the gun owning parents weren\'t arrested?

<hr

/></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

Do you think they should\'ve been?

<hr /></blockquote><font

class=\"post\">

Heck yeah! If the child had access to the parents gun....lock em up

EXIT63
03-19-2004, 06:36 AM
It\'s happening again. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif

Elana
03-19-2004, 06:50 AM
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
It\'s happening again.

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

Come here Exit

and let me hold you. Don\'t be afraid. Bel has been feeling a bit under the weather and I am sure you two will go

back to butting heads any day now.

Sexyredhead
03-19-2004, 07:15 AM
What about the parents of the boy who brought the knife?

EXIT63
03-19-2004, 07:28 AM
Knives aren\'t registered weapons.

however, under the Exit 63 Parental Responsibility Act, I\'m sure we

could charge them with negligence. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

thingscouldwork
03-19-2004, 10:01 AM
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Heck yeah! If the child had access to

the parents gun....lock em up

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

True that! It\'s their

responsibility to keep their children (and their friends/foes /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif )

safe from their firearms!!

Kari
03-19-2004, 10:19 AM
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
</font><blockquote><font

class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Okay,

So

how come the gun owning parents weren\'t arrested?

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

Do you think

they should\'ve been?

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">


Heck yeah! If the child had access to

the parents gun....lock em up

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

Agreed- -and I\'m a gun owner

and trained shooter, myself.

My father, like many people from Michigan, had an extensive gun collection. The

guns AND ammo were always kept locked up-- separately.

Prolly could also use some serious family therapy, for

those kids, and their parents.

Kari
03-19-2004, 10:22 AM
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
The 2nd graders, yeah sure, they may not understand

what they were doing. The brain, I thought, was fully developed by 11 or 12 years old and would know right from

wrong and the consequences of what was about to happen.

Fricken scary anyway.

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

Well, in my

house, we were exposed to guns when we were tiny children-- and educated re: their potential harm. None of us would

have considered hurting anyone with one-- even had they not been kept locked up.

CJ01
03-19-2004, 11:00 AM
This

is quiete insane. At that age we had pocket knives maybe but we knew better than to attack others with them even

when I was mega pissed off with someone I´d have never dreamed of doing that

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif
Parents who give their kids easy access to weapons and don´t

manage to teach their kids right from wrong shouldn´t be allowed to own weapons fullstop. And those kids need a

good verbal blasting to get some decency drilled into their young sad minds.

DrSmellThis
03-19-2004, 12:11 PM
There\'s virtually always a lot going on with the parents, and siblings, when kids do that. I

agree that the parents should be held responsible.

Guns are hard to keep safe in homes with children. Kids

find keys, or someone forgets to lock something. If you have seriously emotionally disturbed kids, even if

they\'re apparently neither suicidal nor homicidal, owning guns is probably just a very bad idea, even

though we have a right to have them. Countless things could happen. I bet there were major warning signs years ago,

which makes the parents doubly responsible.

On the other hand, PET scans of the kid\'s brains would

probably be remarkable too. Major chemical imbalances are also likely. But this kind of disturbance doesn\'t just

appear suddenly some morning.

Everybody needs a ton of therapy (with somebody good, like me

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif) and/or psychiatric treatment. Child Protective Services need to

be heavily involved in home as well.

belgareth
03-19-2004, 12:29 PM
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
</font><blockquote><font

class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
It\'s happening again. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif

<hr

/></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

Come here Exit and let me hold you. Don\'t be afraid. Bel has been

feeling a bit under the weather and I am sure you two will go back to butting heads any day now.

<hr

/></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

Ya\'all jes\' don\'t unerstan me, is all.

It\'s all about

freedom and the responsibilities that go with it. Nobody has the right to impose their will on another person but

each of us has an obligation to take full responsibilty for all of our actions or suffer the consequenses. The only

laws I accept are the ones that amount to not harming others.

belgareth
03-19-2004, 12:30 PM
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
What about the parents of the boy who brought the

knife?

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

Same thing. Aren\'t they responsible for the actions of

their child?

OCP
03-19-2004, 12:59 PM
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Nobody has the right to impose their will on

another person but each of us has an obligation to take full responsibilty for all of our actions or suffer the

consequenses.

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

This is not true. Societies throughout history

have impossed the collective will over individual and rightly so.
We are partly in the predicument that we are in

now because of the mentality that we have \"no right to impose our will on someone else\". The philosophy behind

that is that there is no moral absolute and what is right for you may not be right for me. This philosophy is rotten

to the core. There are absolutes in this life and I have the right to impose my will to live on you anytime I want

to!

belgareth
03-19-2004, 01:10 PM
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
</font><blockquote><font

class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Nobody has the right to impose their will on another person but each of us

has an obligation to take full responsibilty for all of our actions or suffer the consequenses.

<hr

/></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

This is not true. Societies throughout history have impossed the

collective will over individual and rightly so.
We are partly in the predicument that we are in now because of the

mentality that we have \"no right to impose our will on someone else\". The philosophy behind that is that there

is no moral absolute and what is right for you may not be right for me. This philosophy is rotten to the core.

There are absolutes in this life and I have the right to impose my will to live on you anytime I want to!

<hr

/></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

You\'ve got it backwards. I have no right to interfere with your right

to live. Just because it has always been done that way does not make it right. If that were the case we\'d all be

living in trees or caves or performing human sacrifices. That is one of the weakest arguments you can offer! We are

in large part in the predicament we are in because society imposses it\'s will on the individual rather than teach

a person to make good choices. Society\'s rules take away the reponsibility for ones actions, substituting it for

conforming to the rules of that society. Look at all the horrors we have inflicted on our fellow man as a result;

Witch burnings, pogroms, the crusades, the inquisistions, bigotry and hatred, corporate rip-offs and on and on.

Those are all products of your status quo.

tallmacky
03-19-2004, 01:36 PM
Why do people even own guns? I mean if you like to hunt animals I guess that is an ok reason, but wouldn\'t you

have more fun hunting a deer with a spear, it kind of evens out the playing field a bit more.

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif I think that right is a bit overrated....No matter how safe you are

with that, if you had kids in your house, you still run a small risk that you have to accept and everyone in your

house has to accept.

Let\'s face it, we can talk about the parents until we are blue in the face, and that

is probably a \'cause of the situation, but some kids are just worse than other kids. Basically some kids are just

EVIL. In this world we have those that are smarter, quicker, more prone to violence, sexual abuse, serial killing,

and these fundementals apply to children. Not all children are sweet as can be, and not all of them act bad because

their parents weren\'t there to slap their hand, though that is a large percentage of it usually.

So watch

out for Chucky. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

CJ01
03-19-2004, 01:46 PM
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
So watch out for Chucky.

<hr

/></blockquote><font class=\"post\"> huh what he´s here? You mean you saw....

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

belgareth
03-19-2004, 01:49 PM
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Why do people even own guns? I mean if you like to

hunt animals I guess that is an ok reason, but wouldn\'t you have more fun hunting a deer with a spear, it kind of

evens out the playing field a bit more. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif I think that right is a bit

overrated....No matter how safe you are with that, if you had kids in your house, you still run a small risk that

you have to accept and everyone in your house has to accept.

Let\'s face it, we can talk about the parents

until we are blue in the face, and that is probably a \'cause of the situation, but some kids are just worse than

other kids. Basically some kids are just EVIL. In this world we have those that are smarter, quicker, more prone to

violence, sexual abuse, serial killing, and these fundementals apply to children. Not all children are sweet as can

be, and not all of them act bad because their parents weren\'t there to slap their hand, though that is a large

percentage of it usually.

So watch out for Chucky. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif



<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

Is there some reason a person should not be allowed to own a

gun? To protect them from themselves? Look up some crime rate statistics. A good set are the before and after ones

when Florida became a concealed carry state. I hate to sound militant but do you really believe that the government,

who is so weak in punishing criminals is going to protect me and my family? Even despite that, why shouldn\'t any

normal, responsible person be able to own a gun? If nothing else, accurate shooting is a hard won skill that many

are proud to have.

Reality is that more people are killed by car accidents, incompetent doctors and drunk

drivers than are even injured by non-criminal gun owners.

CJ01
03-19-2004, 01:55 PM
Many

people that own guns are not normal and responsible though, that´s the main problem I think TM was thinking of.

tallmacky
03-19-2004, 01:56 PM
I guess I strayed away from my point, my point was that some children are just little damn Demons from hell.

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Sure you can own a gun why not, any laws prohibiting are

impossible people will still do what people do, or go underground with it, discussing whether people should of

shouldn\'t almost does not make sense as taking a gun away from a gun owner is like snatching a 20 from a

prostitute. I have not personally felt the need to pack firepower, I know the issue \"protecting my family\" is

also brought up, but I don\'t know how the wild west is out there in Texas. If I was living in a tougher crime

rate enduced place, then yes. I wasn\'t specifically saying that one should not own a gun, I said if you keep guns

in your house no matter how safe you are you will always run that small possiblity of someone getting hurt or

getting ahold of the gun(s)....not that it is likely as you said with your statisics.

tallmacky
03-19-2004, 01:59 PM
Most people who own guns generally distrust the government....I just don\'t see as living in America the great

need of protecting your family especially those who live in suburbs.

I do not know what you have been through,

have you ever been attacked by someone, or at a point where you needed a gun for self defense....I also think people

like the power of having a gun, they get off to it, and they love shooting it like blowing a load, and there is no

way to ever know if everyone who has a gain is a responsible up standing member of society.

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

CJ01
03-19-2004, 02:00 PM
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
I guess I strayed away from my point, my point was

that some children are just little damn Demons from hell.

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\"> yeah.

There´s traits we have from birth and others we pick up as we get older. Some people are just cool and others are

just )§&amp;$&amp;/$&amp;(. Kids who fuke up can still turn out okay I guess

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif but not if they start killing in the 2nd grade

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

DrSmellThis
03-19-2004, 02:09 PM
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Why do people even own guns? I mean if

you like to hunt animals I guess that is an ok reason, but wouldn\'t you have more fun hunting a deer with a

spear, it kind of evens out the playing field a bit more. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif I think

that right is a bit overrated....No matter how safe you are with that, if you had kids in your house, you still run

a small risk that you have to accept and everyone in your house has to accept.

Let\'s face it, we can talk

about the parents until we are blue in the face, and that is probably a \'cause of the situation, but some kids

are just worse than other kids. Basically some kids are just EVIL. In this world we have those that are smarter,

quicker, more prone to violence, sexual abuse, serial killing, and these fundementals apply to children. Not all

children are sweet as can be, and not all of them act bad because their parents weren\'t there to slap their hand,

though that is a large percentage of it usually.

So watch out for Chucky.

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

Kids

aren\'t evil, IMO, but they can be brain diseased to where parents can\'t make everything all better (violence

often = frontal, temporal lobe problems). I\'ve never seen anything approaching an \"evil kid\" as a child

psychologist, and I\'ve worked with tons of \"very bad\" ones over the years. The ones that looked the worst

often ended up being my favorites to work with.

belgareth
03-19-2004, 02:10 PM
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Many people that own guns are not normal and

responsible though, that´s the main problem I think TM was thinking of.

<hr /></blockquote><font

class=\"post\">

Again, the same can be applied to car owners, bat owners, knife owners etc. In every case, the

majority are responsible. If you want to be picky about it, I could do a pretty complete job on somebody with my

walking stick and it isn\'t registered either. Picking at gun ownership is nonsense.

tallmacky
03-19-2004, 02:11 PM
Don\'t turn around on them Dr.smellthis they may grab a pencil and create a bunch of lead holes in your back,

then duct tape your mouth shut and throw you into a bathtub where they pour soap all over you.....

Do you see the

danger? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif

belgareth
03-19-2004, 02:12 PM
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Most people who own guns generally distrust the

government....I just don\'t see as living in America the great need of protecting your family especially those who

live in suburbs.

I do not know what you have been through, have you ever been attacked by someone, or at a point

where you needed a gun for self defense....I also think people like the power of having a gun, they get off to it,

and they love shooting it like blowing a load, and there is no way to ever know if everyone who has a gain is a

responsible up standing member of society. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

<hr

/></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

You go in for the standard anti-gun BS to, huh? You have facts to back

that up?

tallmacky
03-19-2004, 02:14 PM
Bel.....I happen to have owned a bee bee gun...It was C02 powered....So I happen to be pretty bad ass too.

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

I don\'t care much about guns, I haven\'t been shot in

the balls yet, so I am happy, excuse my \"debate\" it was me just drveling and partially talking to

myself.

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

DrSmellThis
03-19-2004, 02:15 PM
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Don\'t turn around on them

Dr.smellthis they may grab a pencil and create a bunch of lead holes in your back, then duct tape your mouth shut

and throw you into a bathtub where they pour soap all over you.....


Do you see the danger?

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

Been there,

done that.

Elana
03-19-2004, 02:15 PM
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Don\'t turn around on them Dr.smellthis they may

grab a pencil and create a bunch of lead holes in your back, then duct tape your mouth shut and throw you into a

bathtub where they pour soap all over you.....

Do you see the danger?

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

LMAO

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

tallmacky
03-19-2004, 02:18 PM
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Kids aren\'t evil, IMO, but they can be brain

diseased to where parents can\'t make everything all better (violence often = frontal, temporal lobe problems)



<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

Well that is my point. We consider serial killers evil, and

they have frontal cortex problems....and a whole laundry list of other things....By evil I did not mean soul, but

brain which is our temporary soul...So if a kid lacks any sort of remorse (unable to register the emotion) for

example and enjoys pulling out his little brothers hair, and choking cats, then I consider him \"evil\".

DrSmellThis
03-19-2004, 02:32 PM
OK, I get where you\'re coming from. The difference is you treat brain damaged, and see at as another

yourself, but give up on evil, and see it as separate.

tallmacky
03-19-2004, 02:40 PM
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
OK, I get where you\'re coming from. The

difference is you treat brain damaged, and see at as another yourself, but give up on evil, and see it as separate.



<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

Is treating brain damage possible? I know no matter what a child

molestor says, I wouldn\'t trust him or take him on his word, same goes for many mental dysfuntions.

I am

giving up on Evil, I just miss the children of the corn is all. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif

tallmacky
03-19-2004, 02:50 PM
Today\'s love-scent topics? Guns and evil kids. (\"http://www.shechem.org/picad/6.jpg\")

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Pancho1188
03-19-2004, 02:53 PM
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
</font><blockquote><font

class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Why do people even own guns? I mean if you like to hunt animals I guess that

is an ok reason, but wouldn\'t you have more fun hunting a deer with a spear, it kind of evens out the playing

field a bit more. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif I think that right is a bit overrated....No

matter how safe you are with that, if you had kids in your house, you still run a small risk that you have to accept

and everyone in your house has to accept.

Let\'s face it, we can talk about the parents until we are blue in

the face, and that is probably a \'cause of the situation, but some kids are just worse than other kids. Basically

some kids are just EVIL. In this world we have those that are smarter, quicker, more prone to violence, sexual

abuse, serial killing, and these fundementals apply to children. Not all children are sweet as can be, and not all

of them act bad because their parents weren\'t there to slap their hand, though that is a large percentage of it

usually.

So watch out for Chucky. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

<hr

/></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

Kids aren\'t evil, IMO, but they can be brain diseased to where parents

can\'t make everything all better (violence often = frontal, temporal lobe problems). I\'ve never seen anything

approaching an \"evil kid\" as a child psychologist, and I\'ve worked with tons of \"very bad\" ones over the

years. The ones that looked the worst often ended up being my favorites to work with.

<hr /></blockquote><font

class=\"post\">

I don\'t want to get into semantics (I\'ve always wanted to say that

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif), but if children can\'t be evil, then by definition adults

have a hell of a time being evil as well. If you think about it, adults are only a product of growing up as

children. Adults are held accountable because they supposedly understand or should understand the consequences of

their actions as well as the moral fibers that hold together society while children do not have the cognitive

capacity to see past their own existence or the near future due to the stages of cognitive development. However, if

a \"damaged\" child is not evil because he doesn\'t understand the above concepts, then if he grows older and

still has not been taught such moral ideas (the value of human life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness), how can he

be considered evil now when he\'s never been led in the \"right direction\"? The only way a person could be

\'evil\' is if they grew up as a normal, law-abiding child and somehow as an adult understood right and wrong,

believed in the rules, and committed violent, destructive acts despite all of this.

Or they\'re all just really

messed up. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

I\'m just giving you a hard time, don\'t listen

to me. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif



Seriously, though, that being a hole in the world of

logic, it\'s a moral dilemma when you can call a grown person \'evil\' when they might just be a product of

witnessing evil their whole lives to the point that that\'s all they know. It\'s sad when you think about it

because I could be a mean, hurtful, cold-blooded killer as an adult if that\'s all I knew as a child...and that

would make me an evil human being.

Ouch...philosophical overload...must go lie down...

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

tallmacky
03-19-2004, 02:58 PM
Yes I know Pancho, some kids are just evil, and are well aware of their actions. The whole \"What about the kids,

or how will the kids handle this.\" stuff in America is way over done. I still feel if a 13, 14, 15 year old or

even younger who has done something criminal say like murder, they deserve life in jail or death (debatable

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif). Kids are babied and age is usually used as a exploitation.

Jeffery Dahmer was cutting up animals when he was younger, and yes he is evil and was \"f$cked up\"

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

tallmacky
03-19-2004, 02:59 PM
I think people are watching too much \"Children are miracles and our future\" \"they do no wrong!\" Oprah crap.

Sure they are, but this total focus on children has gone a bit too far to a point of oversatuation.

Pancho1188
03-19-2004, 03:02 PM
You\'re on a boat with your mother, your spouse, and your baby. The boat is sinking, and you only

have the strength to take one back to shore. The others are unable to make it on their own, and you are the only

one who can save one of them. Who do you save?

CJ01
03-19-2004, 03:10 PM
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
You\'re on a boat with your mother, your spouse,

and your baby. The boat is sinking, and you only have the strength to take one back to shore. The others are unable

to make it on their own, and you are the only one who can save one of them. Who do you save?




<hr

/></blockquote><font class=\"post\"> pancho, that reminds me of the announcements some cabin crews came up with to

get the passengers attention at during the safety routine. Part of it was something like (in case of emergency) `If

you have a child with you, do this and that and if you have more than one child with you on board decide which one

you like better and keep in mind that the older one tends to move out first´

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

DrSmellThis
03-19-2004, 03:35 PM
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
I think people are watching too much

\"Children are miracles and our future\" \"they do no wrong!\" Oprah crap. Sure they are, but this total focus

on children has gone a bit too far to a point of oversatuation.

<hr /></blockquote><font

class=\"post\">
What TV shows do you watch, Tallmacky?

tallmacky
03-19-2004, 03:54 PM
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
What TV shows do you watch, Tallmacky?

<hr

/></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

Ummm well my favorite show is \"Real Time with Bill Maher (HBO)\"

The guy thinks just the way I do...rarely have I disagreed with anything he has said....ahhh a mentor and he is

Godlike! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif Someone here also got me addicted to Scrubs which is

perfection.../ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif Discovery channel, I can even stomach Bill

O\'reilly who has a few good points.....and Hookers on the point. Shows the pimp and hoe relationship....good for

laughs...\"Where my money?\"

What do you watch Dr.? Have you ever watched scramble softcore porn on cable?

Could time to work out the natural smegma as lube! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif You must be a

Discovery Channel fan too eh?

Kari
03-19-2004, 04:33 PM
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Why do people even own guns? I mean if you like to

hunt animals I guess that is an ok reason, but wouldn\'t you have more fun hunting a deer with a spear, it kind of

evens out the playing field a bit more. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif I think that right is a bit

overrated....No matter how safe you are with that, if you had kids in your house, you still run a small risk that

you have to accept and everyone in your house has to accept.

Let\'s face it, we can talk about the parents

until we are blue in the face, and that is probably a \'cause of the situation, but some kids are just worse than

other kids. Basically some kids are just EVIL. In this world we have those that are smarter, quicker, more prone to

violence, sexual abuse, serial killing, and these fundementals apply to children. Not all children are sweet as can

be, and not all of them act bad because their parents weren\'t there to slap their hand, though that is a large

percentage of it usually.

So watch out for Chucky. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

<hr

/></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

It\'s true that some kids are evil. I once had, on my caseload, a 13

year old serial rapist. Sociopathic Personality Disorder-- no ability to empathize, whatever. Thought to be innate.



However, adults still need to keep the guns and ammo locked up.

Kari
03-19-2004, 04:35 PM
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
</font><blockquote><font

class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Why do people

even own guns? I mean if you like to hunt animals I guess that is an ok reason, but wouldn\'t you have more fun

hunting a deer with a spear, it kind of evens out the playing field a bit more.

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif I think that right is a bit overrated....No matter how safe you are

with that, if you had kids in your house, you still run a small risk that you have to accept and everyone in your

house has to accept.

Let\'s face it, we can talk about the parents until we are blue in the face, and that is

probably a \'cause of the situation, but some kids are just worse than other kids. Basically some kids are just

EVIL. In this world we have those that are smarter, quicker, more prone to violence, sexual abuse, serial killing,

and these fundementals apply to children. Not all children are sweet as can be, and not all of them act bad because

their parents weren\'t there to slap their hand, though that is a large percentage of it usually.

So watch out

for Chucky. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

<hr /></blockquote><font

class=\"post\">

Kids aren\'t evil, IMO, but they can be brain diseased to where parents can\'t make

everything all better (violence often = frontal, temporal lobe problems). I\'ve never seen anything approaching an

\"evil kid\" as a child psychologist, and I\'ve worked with tons of \"very bad\" ones over the years. The ones

that looked the worst often ended up being my favorites to work with.

<hr /></blockquote><font

class=\"post\">

I don\'t want to get into semantics (I\'ve always wanted to say that

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif), but if children can\'t be evil, then by definition adults

have a hell of a time being evil as well. If you think about it, adults are only a product of growing up as

children. Adults are held accountable because they supposedly understand or should understand the consequences of

their actions as well as the moral fibers that hold together society while children do not have the cognitive

capacity to see past their own existence or the near future due to the stages of cognitive development. However, if

a \"damaged\" child is not evil because he doesn\'t understand the above concepts, then if he grows older and

still has not been taught such moral ideas (the value of human life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness), how can he

be considered evil now when he\'s never been led in the \"right direction\"? The only way a person could be

\'evil\' is if they grew up as a normal, law-abiding child and somehow as an adult understood right and wrong,

believed in the rules, and committed violent, destructive acts despite all of this.

Or they\'re all just really

messed up. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

I\'m just giving you a hard time, don\'t listen

to me. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif



Seriously, though, that being a hole in the world of

logic, it\'s a moral dilemma when you can call a grown person \'evil\' when they might just be a product of

witnessing evil their whole lives to the point that that\'s all they know. It\'s sad when you think about it

because I could be a mean, hurtful, cold-blooded killer as an adult if that\'s all I knew as a child...and that

would make me an evil human being.

Ouch...philosophical overload...must go lie down...

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

There are

also bad people that have never been abused, and good people who have been abused badly. It\'s a mystery.

Kari
03-19-2004, 04:36 PM
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Yes I know Pancho, some kids are just evil, and are

well aware of their actions. The whole \"What about the kids, or how will the kids handle this.\" stuff in America

is way over done. I still feel if a 13, 14, 15 year old or even younger who has done something criminal say like

murder, they deserve life in jail or death (debatable /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif). Kids are

babied and age is usually used as a exploitation. Jeffery Dahmer was cutting up animals when he was younger, and yes

he is evil and was \"f$cked up\" /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

<hr /></blockquote><font

class=\"post\">

If the dog can learn that it may not bite people, why can\'t a child learn that s/he may not

do harm?

Kari
03-19-2004, 04:47 PM
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
</font><blockquote><font

class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Why do people even own guns? I mean if you like to hunt animals I guess that

is an ok reason, but wouldn\'t you have more fun hunting a deer with a spear, it kind of evens out the playing

field a bit more. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif I think that right is a bit overrated....No

matter how safe you are with that, if you had kids in your house, you still run a small risk that you have to accept

and everyone in your house has to accept.

Let\'s face it, we can talk about the parents until we are blue in

the face, and that is probably a \'cause of the situation, but some kids are just worse than other kids. Basically

some kids are just EVIL. In this world we have those that are smarter, quicker, more prone to violence, sexual

abuse, serial killing, and these fundementals apply to children. Not all children are sweet as can be, and not all

of them act bad because their parents weren\'t there to slap their hand, though that is a large percentage of it

usually.

So watch out for Chucky. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

<hr

/></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

Is there some reason a person should not be allowed to own a gun? To

protect them from themselves? Look up some crime rate statistics. A good set are the before and after ones when

Florida became a concealed carry state. I hate to sound militant but do you really believe that the government, who

is so weak in punishing criminals is going to protect me and my family? Even despite that, why shouldn\'t any

normal, responsible person be able to own a gun? If nothing else, accurate shooting is a hard won skill that many

are proud to have.

Reality is that more people are killed by car accidents, incompetent doctors and drunk drivers

than are even injured by non-criminal gun owners.

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

I own guns,

and see the value of it. Where I was raised, violent crime was comparatively low-- particularly home invasions.

Because any home that a criminal might choose to invade was likely to have a shooter in residence.

People also

didn\'t shoot up McDonalds, because chances are that at least one of the patrons was likely to have a concealed

weapons permit.

Now this might get me flamed, but... I think that concealed weapons permits should be available

to people who:
1) Have no criminal record,
2) Have demonstrated marksmanship at an \"expert\" level on the

firing range,
3) Have passed a NRA endorsed smallarms safety course, and
4) Have passed written and practical

smallarms safety tests.

BTW-- I own guns, but do not hunt. The only things that I have ever killed are many paper

targets. I also practice archery. The fun is in the development of marksmanship skills-- not in the harming of

something.

Kari
03-19-2004, 04:49 PM
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
</font><blockquote><font

class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Most people who own guns generally distrust the government....I just don\'t

see as living in America the great need of protecting your family especially those who live in suburbs.

I do not

know what you have been through, have you ever been attacked by someone, or at a point where you needed a gun for

self defense....I also think people like the power of having a gun, they get off to it, and they love shooting it

like blowing a load, and there is no way to ever know if everyone who has a gain is a responsible up standing member

of society. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

<hr /></blockquote><font

class=\"post\">

You go in for the standard anti-gun BS to, huh? You have facts to back that up?

<hr

/></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

Well, gun control is said to be tightest in WDC-- which is also one of the

highest areas for violent crime.

Kari
03-19-2004, 04:49 PM
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Bel.....I happen to have owned a bee bee gun...It

was C02 powered....So I happen to be pretty bad ass too. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

I

don\'t care much about guns, I haven\'t been shot in the balls yet, so I am happy, excuse my \"debate\" it was

me just drveling and partially talking to myself.

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

<hr

/></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

ROFL!

Kari
03-19-2004, 04:50 PM
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
This is quiete insane. At that age we had pocket

knives maybe but we knew better than to attack others with them even when I was mega pissed off with someone I´d

have never dreamed of doing that /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif
Parents who give their kids

easy access to weapons and don´t manage to teach their kids right from wrong shouldn´t be allowed to own weapons

fullstop. And those kids need a good verbal blasting to get some decency drilled into their young sad minds.



<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

What she said.

Kari
03-19-2004, 04:52 PM
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
There\'s virtually always a lot going on

with the parents, and siblings, when kids do that. I agree that the parents should be held responsible.

Guns are

hard to keep safe in homes with children. Kids find keys, or someone forgets to lock something. If you have

seriously emotionally disturbed kids, even if they\'re apparently neither suicidal nor homicidal, owning guns is

probably just a very bad idea, even though we have a right to have them. Countless things could happen. I bet

there were major warning signs years ago, which makes the parents doubly responsible.

On the other hand, PET

scans of the kid\'s brains would probably be remarkable too. Major chemical imbalances are also likely. But this

kind of disturbance doesn\'t just appear suddenly some morning.

Everybody needs a ton of therapy (with

somebody good, like me /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif) and/or psychiatric treatment. Child

Protective Services need to be heavily involved in home as well.

<hr /></blockquote><font

class=\"post\">

What he said.

belgareth
03-19-2004, 04:58 PM
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
</font><blockquote><font

class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Why do people

even own guns? I mean if you like to hunt animals I guess that is an ok reason, but wouldn\'t you have more fun

hunting a deer with a spear, it kind of evens out the playing field a bit more.

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif I think that right is a bit overrated....No matter how safe you are

with that, if you had kids in your house, you still run a small risk that you have to accept and everyone in your

house has to accept.

Let\'s face it, we can talk about the parents until we are blue in the face, and that is

probably a \'cause of the situation, but some kids are just worse than other kids. Basically some kids are just

EVIL. In this world we have those that are smarter, quicker, more prone to violence, sexual abuse, serial killing,

and these fundementals apply to children. Not all children are sweet as can be, and not all of them act bad because

their parents weren\'t there to slap their hand, though that is a large percentage of it usually.

So watch out

for Chucky. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

<hr /></blockquote><font

class=\"post\">

Is there some reason a person should not be allowed to own a gun? To protect them from

themselves? Look up some crime rate statistics. A good set are the before and after ones when Florida became a

concealed carry state. I hate to sound militant but do you really believe that the government, who is so weak in

punishing criminals is going to protect me and my family? Even despite that, why shouldn\'t any normal,

responsible person be able to own a gun? If nothing else, accurate shooting is a hard won skill that many are proud

to have.

Reality is that more people are killed by car accidents, incompetent doctors and drunk drivers than are

even injured by non-criminal gun owners.

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

I own guns, and see the

value of it. Where I was raised, violent crime was comparatively low-- particularly home invasions. Because any home

that a criminal might choose to invade was likely to have a shooter in residence.

People also didn\'t shoot up

McDonalds, because chances are that at least one of the patrons was likely to have a concealed weapons permit.



Now this might get me flamed, but... I think that concealed weapons permits should be available to people

who:
1) Have no criminal record,
2) Have demonstrated marksmanship at an \"expert\" level on the firing

range,
3) Have passed a NRA endorsed smallarms safety course, and
4) Have passed written and practical smallarms

safety tests.

BTW-- I own guns, but do not hunt. The only things that I have ever killed are many paper targets.

I also practice archery. The fun is in the development of marksmanship skills-- not in the harming of something.



<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

Agreed! Emphatically

belgareth
03-19-2004, 05:04 PM
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
</font><blockquote><font

class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Yes I know Pancho, some kids are just evil, and are well aware of their

actions. The whole \"What about the kids, or how will the kids handle this.\" stuff in America is way over done. I

still feel if a 13, 14, 15 year old or even younger who has done something criminal say like murder, they deserve

life in jail or death (debatable /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif). Kids are babied and age is

usually used as a exploitation. Jeffery Dahmer was cutting up animals when he was younger, and yes he is evil and

was \"f$cked up\" /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

<hr /></blockquote><font

class=\"post\">

If the dog can learn that it may not bite people, why can\'t a child learn that s/he may not

do harm?

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

That\'s in part because parents are so concerned with

being friends with their kids that they cannot be parents. When a dog bites or gets too aggressive, you let it

know-FIRMLY! When a kid bites or gets too aggressive you hear \"Oh, &lt;Insert name here&gt; be nice now.\" No

discipline or consequenses for their actions. then the parents can\'t figure out why they are intolerable

monsters. It\'s a way of showing your kids you love them. Set bounderies and help them learn to be a part of

society.

belgareth
03-19-2004, 05:04 PM
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
</font><blockquote><font

class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Most people

who own guns generally distrust the government....I just don\'t see as living in America the great need of

protecting your family especially those who live in suburbs.

I do not know what you have been through, have you

ever been attacked by someone, or at a point where you needed a gun for self defense....I also think people like the

power of having a gun, they get off to it, and they love shooting it like blowing a load, and there is no way to

ever know if everyone who has a gain is a responsible up standing member of society.

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

You go in for

the standard anti-gun BS to, huh? You have facts to back that up?

<hr /></blockquote><font

class=\"post\">

Well, gun control is said to be tightest in WDC-- which is also one of the highest areas for

violent crime.

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

Gee, what a surprise.

thingscouldwork
03-19-2004, 05:17 PM
Anyone watch \"Bowling for Columbine\"?

I couldn\'t believe that you get shooter for OPENING AN

ACCOUNT IN A BANK!! First comment after receiving it:

\"Don\'t you think it\'s a little dangerous, handing

out guns in a bank??\" /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Anyway, I found it quite interesting

(and the cartoon-part is even funny to some extent!)...

Kari
03-19-2004, 05:19 PM
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
</font><blockquote><font

class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Yes I know

Pancho, some kids are just evil, and are well aware of their actions. The whole \"What about the kids, or how will

the kids handle this.\" stuff in America is way over done. I still feel if a 13, 14, 15 year old or even younger

who has done something criminal say like murder, they deserve life in jail or death (debatable

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif). Kids are babied and age is usually used as a exploitation.

Jeffery Dahmer was cutting up animals when he was younger, and yes he is evil and was \"f$cked up\"

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

If the dog can

learn that it may not bite people, why can\'t a child learn that s/he may not do harm?

<hr

/></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

That\'s in part because parents are so concerned with being friends with

their kids that they cannot be parents. When a dog bites or gets too aggressive, you let it know-FIRMLY! When a kid

bites or gets too aggressive you hear \"Oh, &lt;Insert name here&gt; be nice now.\" No discipline or consequenses

for their actions. then the parents can\'t figure out why they are intolerable monsters. It\'s a way of showing

your kids you love them. Set bounderies and help them learn to be a part of society.

<hr /></blockquote><font

class=\"post\">

What he said.

Kari
03-19-2004, 05:22 PM
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
</font><blockquote><font

class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr

/>
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Why do people even own guns? I mean if you like

to hunt animals I guess that is an ok reason, but wouldn\'t you have more fun hunting a deer with a spear, it kind

of evens out the playing field a bit more. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif I think that right is a

bit overrated....No matter how safe you are with that, if you had kids in your house, you still run a small risk

that you have to accept and everyone in your house has to accept.

Let\'s face it, we can talk about the parents

until we are blue in the face, and that is probably a \'cause of the situation, but some kids are just worse than

other kids. Basically some kids are just EVIL. In this world we have those that are smarter, quicker, more prone to

violence, sexual abuse, serial killing, and these fundementals apply to children. Not all children are sweet as can

be, and not all of them act bad because their parents weren\'t there to slap their hand, though that is a large

percentage of it usually.

So watch out for Chucky. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

<hr

/></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

Is there some reason a person should not be allowed to own a gun? To

protect them from themselves? Look up some crime rate statistics. A good set are the before and after ones when

Florida became a concealed carry state. I hate to sound militant but do you really believe that the government, who

is so weak in punishing criminals is going to protect me and my family? Even despite that, why shouldn\'t any

normal, responsible person be able to own a gun? If nothing else, accurate shooting is a hard won skill that many

are proud to have.

Reality is that more people are killed by car accidents, incompetent doctors and drunk drivers

than are even injured by non-criminal gun owners.

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

I own guns,

and see the value of it. Where I was raised, violent crime was comparatively low-- particularly home invasions.

Because any home that a criminal might choose to invade was likely to have a shooter in residence.

People also

didn\'t shoot up McDonalds, because chances are that at least one of the patrons was likely to have a concealed

weapons permit.

Now this might get me flamed, but... I think that concealed weapons permits should be available

to people who:
1) Have no criminal record,
2) Have demonstrated marksmanship at an \"expert\" level on the

firing range,
3) Have passed a NRA endorsed smallarms safety course, and
4) Have passed written and practical

smallarms safety tests.

BTW-- I own guns, but do not hunt. The only things that I have ever killed are many paper

targets. I also practice archery. The fun is in the development of marksmanship skills-- not in the harming of

something.

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

Agreed! Emphatically

<hr /></blockquote><font

class=\"post\">

And.. though I am a 120# woman, if a criminal chose to invade my home with the intention of

doing harm....he\'s probably toast. Because his weapons skills are likely to be inferior to mine. I\'m trained,

he probably isn\'t.

Kari
03-19-2004, 05:29 PM
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Anyone watch \"Bowling for Columbine\"?

I

couldn\'t believe that you get shooter for OPENING AN ACCOUNT IN A BANK!! First comment after receiving

it:

\"Don\'t you think it\'s a little dangerous, handing out guns in a bank??\"

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Anyway, I found it quite interesting (and the cartoon-part is

even funny to some extent!)...

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

Loved Bowling for

Columbine!

BTW-- A bank robber in West L.A. was apprehended after he left his gun behind. He called the bank,

later, and asked whether he could come by and pick it up.

belgareth
03-19-2004, 06:13 PM
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
</font><blockquote><font

class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr

/>
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
</font><blockquote><font

class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Why do people even own guns? I mean if you like to hunt animals I guess that

is an ok reason, but wouldn\'t you have more fun hunting a deer with a spear, it kind of evens out the playing

field a bit more. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif I think that right is a bit overrated....No

matter how safe you are with that, if you had kids in your house, you still run a small risk that you have to accept

and everyone in your house has to accept.

Let\'s face it, we can talk about the parents until we are blue in

the face, and that is probably a \'cause of the situation, but some kids are just worse than other kids. Basically

some kids are just EVIL. In this world we have those that are smarter, quicker, more prone to violence, sexual

abuse, serial killing, and these fundementals apply to children. Not all children are sweet as can be, and not all

of them act bad because their parents weren\'t there to slap their hand, though that is a large percentage of it

usually.

So watch out for Chucky. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

<hr

/></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

Is there some reason a person should not be allowed to own a gun? To

protect them from themselves? Look up some crime rate statistics. A good set are the before and after ones when

Florida became a concealed carry state. I hate to sound militant but do you really believe that the government, who

is so weak in punishing criminals is going to protect me and my family? Even despite that, why shouldn\'t any

normal, responsible person be able to own a gun? If nothing else, accurate shooting is a hard won skill that many

are proud to have.

Reality is that more people are killed by car accidents, incompetent doctors and drunk drivers

than are even injured by non-criminal gun owners.

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

I own guns,

and see the value of it. Where I was raised, violent crime was comparatively low-- particularly home invasions.

Because any home that a criminal might choose to invade was likely to have a shooter in residence.

People also

didn\'t shoot up McDonalds, because chances are that at least one of the patrons was likely to have a concealed

weapons permit.

Now this might get me flamed, but... I think that concealed weapons permits should be available

to people who:
1) Have no criminal record,
2) Have demonstrated marksmanship at an \"expert\" level on the

firing range,
3) Have passed a NRA endorsed smallarms safety course, and
4) Have passed written and practical

smallarms safety tests.

BTW-- I own guns, but do not hunt. The only things that I have ever killed are many paper

targets. I also practice archery. The fun is in the development of marksmanship skills-- not in the harming of

something.

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

Agreed! Emphatically

<hr /></blockquote><font

class=\"post\">

And.. though I am a 120# woman, if a criminal chose to invade my home with the intention of

doing harm....he\'s probably toast. Because his weapons skills are likely to be inferior to mine. I\'m trained,

he probably isn\'t.

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

I feel exactly the same way. My \'Home

defense clip\' is loaded with Talons. If some idiot forces me to shoot him, I want him to stay shot. I have no

problem at all cleaning up somebody else\'s blood.

belgareth
03-19-2004, 06:26 PM
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
</font><blockquote><font

class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr

/>
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
</font><blockquote><font

class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Why do people even own guns? I mean if you like to hunt animals I guess that

is an ok reason, but wouldn\'t you have more fun hunting a deer with a spear, it kind of evens out the playing

field a bit more. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif I think that right is a bit overrated....No

matter how safe you are with that, if you had kids in your house, you still run a small risk that you have to accept

and everyone in your house has to accept.

Let\'s face it, we can talk about the parents until we are blue in

the face, and that is probably a \'cause of the situation, but some kids are just worse than other kids. Basically

some kids are just EVIL. In this world we have those that are smarter, quicker, more prone to violence, sexual

abuse, serial killing, and these fundementals apply to children. Not all children are sweet as can be, and not all

of them act bad because their parents weren\'t there to slap their hand, though that is a large percentage of it

usually.

So watch out for Chucky. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

<hr

/></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

Is there some reason a person should not be allowed to own a gun? To

protect them from themselves? Look up some crime rate statistics. A good set are the before and after ones when

Florida became a concealed carry state. I hate to sound militant but do you really believe that the government, who

is so weak in punishing criminals is going to protect me and my family? Even despite that, why shouldn\'t any

normal, responsible person be able to own a gun? If nothing else, accurate shooting is a hard won skill that many

are proud to have.

Reality is that more people are killed by car accidents, incompetent doctors and drunk drivers

than are even injured by non-criminal gun owners.

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

I own guns,

and see the value of it. Where I was raised, violent crime was comparatively low-- particularly home invasions.

Because any home that a criminal might choose to invade was likely to have a shooter in residence.

People also

didn\'t shoot up McDonalds, because chances are that at least one of the patrons was likely to have a concealed

weapons permit.

Now this might get me flamed, but... I think that concealed weapons permits should be available

to people who:
1) Have no criminal record,
2) Have demonstrated marksmanship at an \"expert\" level on the

firing range,
3) Have passed a NRA endorsed smallarms safety course, and
4) Have passed written and practical

smallarms safety tests.

BTW-- I own guns, but do not hunt. The only things that I have ever killed are many paper

targets. I also practice archery. The fun is in the development of marksmanship skills-- not in the harming of

something.

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

Agreed! Emphatically

<hr /></blockquote><font

class=\"post\">

And.. though I am a 120# woman, if a criminal chose to invade my home with the intention of

doing harm....he\'s probably toast. Because his weapons skills are likely to be inferior to mine. I\'m trained,

he probably isn\'t.

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

Kari,

I don\'t hunt so don\'t own

any rifles only handguns. I have three daughters. They can all cut out the bulls-eye at 9 meters with a 22LR pistol.

As soon as they were old and strong enough to safely handle a gun they started learning gun safety and marksmanship.

Like so many other things, training and familiarity removed most of the risk of having them around the house. Gun

safety is practiced here more from years of habit than from any enforced rules. I have few worries because there is

no novelty for them.

Kari
03-19-2004, 06:28 PM
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
</font><blockquote><font

class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr

/>
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
</font><blockquote><font

class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Why do people

even own guns? I mean if you like to hunt animals I guess that is an ok reason, but wouldn\'t you have more fun

hunting a deer with a spear, it kind of evens out the playing field a bit more.

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif I think that right is a bit overrated....No matter how safe you are

with that, if you had kids in your house, you still run a small risk that you have to accept and everyone in your

house has to accept.

Let\'s face it, we can talk about the parents until we are blue in the face, and that is

probably a \'cause of the situation, but some kids are just worse than other kids. Basically some kids are just

EVIL. In this world we have those that are smarter, quicker, more prone to violence, sexual abuse, serial killing,

and these fundementals apply to children. Not all children are sweet as can be, and not all of them act bad because

their parents weren\'t there to slap their hand, though that is a large percentage of it usually.

So watch out

for Chucky. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

<hr /></blockquote><font

class=\"post\">

Is there some reason a person should not be allowed to own a gun? To protect them from

themselves? Look up some crime rate statistics. A good set are the before and after ones when Florida became a

concealed carry state. I hate to sound militant but do you really believe that the government, who is so weak in

punishing criminals is going to protect me and my family? Even despite that, why shouldn\'t any normal,

responsible person be able to own a gun? If nothing else, accurate shooting is a hard won skill that many are proud

to have.

Reality is that more people are killed by car accidents, incompetent doctors and drunk drivers than are

even injured by non-criminal gun owners.

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

I own guns, and see the

value of it. Where I was raised, violent crime was comparatively low-- particularly home invasions. Because any home

that a criminal might choose to invade was likely to have a shooter in residence.

People also didn\'t shoot up

McDonalds, because chances are that at least one of the patrons was likely to have a concealed weapons permit.



Now this might get me flamed, but... I think that concealed weapons permits should be available to people

who:
1) Have no criminal record,
2) Have demonstrated marksmanship at an \"expert\" level on the firing

range,
3) Have passed a NRA endorsed smallarms safety course, and
4) Have passed written and practical smallarms

safety tests.

BTW-- I own guns, but do not hunt. The only things that I have ever killed are many paper targets.

I also practice archery. The fun is in the development of marksmanship skills-- not in the harming of something.



<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

Agreed! Emphatically

<hr /></blockquote><font

class=\"post\">

And.. though I am a 120# woman, if a criminal chose to invade my home with the intention of

doing harm....he\'s probably toast. Because his weapons skills are likely to be inferior to mine. I\'m trained,

he probably isn\'t.

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

Kari,

I don\'t hunt so don\'t own

any rifles only handguns. I have three daughters. They can all cut out the bulls-eye at 9 meters with a 22LR pistol.

As soon as they were old and strong enough to safely handle a gun they started learning gun safety and marksmanship.

Like so many other things, training and familiarity removed most of the risk of having them around the house. Gun

safety is practiced here more from years of habit than from any enforced rules. I have few worries because there is

no novelty for them.



<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

Yep. That was my upbringing, too.

Taught to shoot SAFELY as soon as I was old enough to lift a gun. No accidents in that house. Ever.

belgareth
03-19-2004, 06:39 PM
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />


Kari,

I don\'t hunt so don\'t own any

rifles only handguns. I have three daughters. They can all cut out the bulls-eye at 9 meters with a 22LR pistol. As

soon as they were old and strong enough to safely handle a gun they started learning gun safety and marksmanship.

Like so many other things, training and familiarity removed most of the risk of having them around the house. Gun

safety is practiced here more from years of habit than from any enforced rules. I have few worries because there is

no novelty for them.



<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

Yep. That was my upbringing, too.

Taught to shoot SAFELY as soon as I was old enough to lift a gun. No accidents in that house. Ever.

<hr

/></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

That\'s the difference between responsible gun ownership and these macho

morons who think they are toys. While it is not a secret, most people don\'t even realize I own guns.

OCP
03-19-2004, 07:20 PM
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
</font><blockquote><font

class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Yes I know Pancho, some kids are just evil, and are well aware of their

actions. The whole \"What about the kids, or how will the kids handle this.\" stuff in America is way over done. I

still feel if a 13, 14, 15 year old or even younger who has done something criminal say like murder, they deserve

life in jail or death (debatable /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif). Kids are babied and age is

usually used as a exploitation. Jeffery Dahmer was cutting up animals when he was younger, and yes he is evil and

was \"f$cked up\" /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

<hr /></blockquote><font

class=\"post\">

If the dog can learn that it may not bite people, why can\'t a child learn that s/he may not

do harm?

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

They can and do, but there are sociopath\'s(sp?) at

all ages.

OCP
03-19-2004, 07:22 PM
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
I think people are watching too much \"Children

are miracles and our future\" \"they do no wrong!\" Oprah crap. Sure they are, but this total focus on children

has gone a bit too far to a point of oversatuation.

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

We are so

afraid of \"abusing\" our children that they are running the show. The authority of the parent or teacher is so

watered down that if a kid wants to go bad who can stop them?

OCP
03-19-2004, 07:22 PM
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
You\'re on a boat with your mother, your spouse,

and your baby. The boat is sinking, and you only have the strength to take one back to shore. The others are

unable to make it on their own, and you are the only one who can save one of them. Who do you save?

<hr

/></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

Spouse

belgareth
03-19-2004, 07:25 PM
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
</font><blockquote><font

class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Yes I know

Pancho, some kids are just evil, and are well aware of their actions. The whole \"What about the kids, or how will

the kids handle this.\" stuff in America is way over done. I still feel if a 13, 14, 15 year old or even younger

who has done something criminal say like murder, they deserve life in jail or death (debatable

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif). Kids are babied and age is usually used as a exploitation.

Jeffery Dahmer was cutting up animals when he was younger, and yes he is evil and was \"f$cked up\"

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

If the dog can

learn that it may not bite people, why can\'t a child learn that s/he may not do harm?

<hr

/></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

They can and do, but there are sociopath\'s(sp?) at all ages.

<hr

/></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

Unfortunately, that\'s true. The real issue here is identifying and

helping them. Many mental conditions respond well to drug therapy and new ones are being developed to help many

more. Prevention is key to the problem, schools and parents both have got to be involved to make it work. Now many

parents refuse to admit a problem exists and the schools are powerless in most cases.

OCP
03-19-2004, 07:28 PM
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
</font><blockquote><font

class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Why do people

even own guns? I mean if you like to hunt animals I guess that is an ok reason, but wouldn\'t you have more fun

hunting a deer with a spear, it kind of evens out the playing field a bit more.

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif I think that right is a bit overrated....No matter how safe you are

with that, if you had kids in your house, you still run a small risk that you have to accept and everyone in your

house has to accept.

Let\'s face it, we can talk about the parents until we are blue in the face, and that is

probably a \'cause of the situation, but some kids are just worse than other kids. Basically some kids are just

EVIL. In this world we have those that are smarter, quicker, more prone to violence, sexual abuse, serial killing,

and these fundementals apply to children. Not all children are sweet as can be, and not all of them act bad because

their parents weren\'t there to slap their hand, though that is a large percentage of it usually.

So watch out

for Chucky. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

<hr /></blockquote><font

class=\"post\">

Is there some reason a person should not be allowed to own a gun? To protect them from

themselves? Look up some crime rate statistics. A good set are the before and after ones when Florida became a

concealed carry state. I hate to sound militant but do you really believe that the government, who is so weak in

punishing criminals is going to protect me and my family? Even despite that, why shouldn\'t any normal,

responsible person be able to own a gun? If nothing else, accurate shooting is a hard won skill that many are proud

to have.

Reality is that more people are killed by car accidents, incompetent doctors and drunk drivers than are

even injured by non-criminal gun owners.

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

I own guns, and see the

value of it. Where I was raised, violent crime was comparatively low-- particularly home invasions. Because any home

that a criminal might choose to invade was likely to have a shooter in residence.

People also didn\'t shoot up

McDonalds, because chances are that at least one of the patrons was likely to have a concealed weapons permit.



Now this might get me flamed, but... I think that concealed weapons permits should be available to people

who:
1) Have no criminal record,
2) Have demonstrated marksmanship at an \"expert\" level on the firing

range,
3) Have passed a NRA endorsed smallarms safety course, and
4) Have passed written and practical smallarms

safety tests.

BTW-- I own guns, but do not hunt. The only things that I have ever killed are many paper targets.

I also practice archery. The fun is in the development of marksmanship skills-- not in the harming of something.



<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

If this were true and you could kill someone attacking you, then I

think violent crime in America would drop dramatically.

belgareth
03-19-2004, 07:28 PM
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
</font><blockquote><font

class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
I think people are watching too much \"Children are miracles and our

future\" \"they do no wrong!\" Oprah crap. Sure they are, but this total focus on children has gone a bit too far

to a point of oversatuation.

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

We are so afraid of \"abusing\"

our children that they are running the show. The authority of the parent or teacher is so watered down that if a

kid wants to go bad who can stop them?

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

It\'s really sad when

you can be charged with abuse for discipling your kid but it happens all to frequently. And as bad is when the

schools enforce the rules only to have the parents take it to court. What does that teach the kids?

belgareth
03-19-2004, 07:30 PM
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
</font><blockquote><font

class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr

/>
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Why do people even own guns? I mean if you like

to hunt animals I guess that is an ok reason, but wouldn\'t you have more fun hunting a deer with a spear, it kind

of evens out the playing field a bit more. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif I think that right is a

bit overrated....No matter how safe you are with that, if you had kids in your house, you still run a small risk

that you have to accept and everyone in your house has to accept.

Let\'s face it, we can talk about the parents

until we are blue in the face, and that is probably a \'cause of the situation, but some kids are just worse than

other kids. Basically some kids are just EVIL. In this world we have those that are smarter, quicker, more prone to

violence, sexual abuse, serial killing, and these fundementals apply to children. Not all children are sweet as can

be, and not all of them act bad because their parents weren\'t there to slap their hand, though that is a large

percentage of it usually.

So watch out for Chucky. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

<hr

/></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

Is there some reason a person should not be allowed to own a gun? To

protect them from themselves? Look up some crime rate statistics. A good set are the before and after ones when

Florida became a concealed carry state. I hate to sound militant but do you really believe that the government, who

is so weak in punishing criminals is going to protect me and my family? Even despite that, why shouldn\'t any

normal, responsible person be able to own a gun? If nothing else, accurate shooting is a hard won skill that many

are proud to have.

Reality is that more people are killed by car accidents, incompetent doctors and drunk drivers

than are even injured by non-criminal gun owners.

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

I own guns,

and see the value of it. Where I was raised, violent crime was comparatively low-- particularly home invasions.

Because any home that a criminal might choose to invade was likely to have a shooter in residence.

People also

didn\'t shoot up McDonalds, because chances are that at least one of the patrons was likely to have a concealed

weapons permit.

Now this might get me flamed, but... I think that concealed weapons permits should be available

to people who:
1) Have no criminal record,
2) Have demonstrated marksmanship at an \"expert\" level on the

firing range,
3) Have passed a NRA endorsed smallarms safety course, and
4) Have passed written and practical

smallarms safety tests.

BTW-- I own guns, but do not hunt. The only things that I have ever killed are many paper

targets. I also practice archery. The fun is in the development of marksmanship skills-- not in the harming of

something.

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

If this were true and you could kill someone attacking

you, then I think violent crime in America would drop dramatically.

<hr /></blockquote><font

class=\"post\">

Is there some reason you can\'t?

OCP
03-19-2004, 07:30 PM
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
</font><blockquote><font

class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />


Kari,

I don\'t hunt so don\'t own any rifles only handguns. I have

three daughters. They can all cut out the bulls-eye at 9 meters with a 22LR pistol. As soon as they were old and

strong enough to safely handle a gun they started learning gun safety and marksmanship. Like so many other things,

training and familiarity removed most of the risk of having them around the house. Gun safety is practiced here more

from years of habit than from any enforced rules. I have few worries because there is no novelty for them.





<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

Yep. That was my upbringing, too. Taught to shoot SAFELY as soon

as I was old enough to lift a gun. No accidents in that house. Ever.

<hr /></blockquote><font

class=\"post\">

That\'s the difference between responsible gun ownership and these macho morons who think

they are toys. While it is not a secret, most people don\'t even realize I own guns.

<hr

/></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

I am opening a fifth of Vodka because I agree with Bel and Kari.....

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

belgareth
03-19-2004, 07:32 PM
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
</font><blockquote><font

class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr

/>


Kari,

I don\'t hunt so don\'t own any rifles only handguns. I have three daughters. They can all cut

out the bulls-eye at 9 meters with a 22LR pistol. As soon as they were old and strong enough to safely handle a gun

they started learning gun safety and marksmanship. Like so many other things, training and familiarity removed most

of the risk of having them around the house. Gun safety is practiced here more from years of habit than from any

enforced rules. I have few worries because there is no novelty for them.



<hr /></blockquote><font

class=\"post\">

Yep. That was my upbringing, too. Taught to shoot SAFELY as soon as I was old enough to lift a

gun. No accidents in that house. Ever.

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

That\'s the difference

between responsible gun ownership and these macho morons who think they are toys. While it is not a secret, most

people don\'t even realize I own guns.

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

I am opening a fifth of

Vodka because I agree with Bel and Kari..... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

<hr

/></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

Leave it in the freezer for a couple hours then chase it with cold water.

You\'ll never feel it go down. Hell of a way to get really plastered.

Kari
03-19-2004, 09:13 PM
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
</font><blockquote><font

class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Yes I know

Pancho, some kids are just evil, and are well aware of their actions. The whole \"What about the kids, or how will

the kids handle this.\" stuff in America is way over done. I still feel if a 13, 14, 15 year old or even younger

who has done something criminal say like murder, they deserve life in jail or death (debatable

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif). Kids are babied and age is usually used as a exploitation.

Jeffery Dahmer was cutting up animals when he was younger, and yes he is evil and was \"f$cked up\"

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

If the dog can

learn that it may not bite people, why can\'t a child learn that s/he may not do harm?

<hr

/></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

They can and do, but there are sociopath\'s(sp?) at all ages.

<hr

/></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

TOO true. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif

Kari
03-19-2004, 09:14 PM
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
</font><blockquote><font

class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr

/>
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Yes I know Pancho, some kids are just evil, and

are well aware of their actions. The whole \"What about the kids, or how will the kids handle this.\" stuff in

America is way over done. I still feel if a 13, 14, 15 year old or even younger who has done something criminal say

like murder, they deserve life in jail or death (debatable /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif). Kids

are babied and age is usually used as a exploitation. Jeffery Dahmer was cutting up animals when he was younger, and

yes he is evil and was \"f$cked up\" /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

<hr

/></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

If the dog can learn that it may not bite people, why can\'t a child

learn that s/he may not do harm?

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

They can and do, but there are

sociopath\'s(sp?) at all ages.

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

Unfortunately, that\'s true.

The real issue here is identifying and helping them. Many mental conditions respond well to drug therapy and new

ones are being developed to help many more. Prevention is key to the problem, schools and parents both have got to

be involved to make it work. Now many parents refuse to admit a problem exists and the schools are powerless in most

cases.

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

... which is unfortunate, because incipient sociopathy is

fairly easy to indetify, early on.

EXIT63
03-20-2004, 06:05 AM
The problem with all these gun laws is that criminals don\'t abide by them.

And the problem with kids today

may stem from an unhealthy diet, lack of vigorous exercise, and ofcourse the lack of discipline and parenting in

general in so many American households.

So let\'s get mom off the valium. Dad off the scotch. Kids off the

couch. Stop with the freakin happy meals, and eliminate the pounds, and pounds, and pounds of SUGAR that these kids

eat in a year.

And then if your kid is still a troublemaker. Ship him off to military school.

I know it

sounds simplistic. But maybe we need a little more simplicity in our overly complicated lives.

belgareth
03-20-2004, 06:28 AM
Exit,

You are really starting to worry me. Other than the military school, I couldn\'t agree more. Although

the idea of every person being required to do some form of service, military or civil, for about 18 months after

they finish school has a lot of merit.

People who don\'t want to put in the effort to raise kids need to either

practice birth control or keep their friggin pants on. There\'s a lot of time and effort that goes into raising

civilized human beings.

belgareth
03-20-2004, 06:32 AM
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
The problem with all these gun laws is that

criminals don\'t abide by them.



<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

Yup, we have plenty of laws.

What we need to do is enforce them. Spend the time and effort to catch and punish criminals to the degree that it

makes a lasting impression. I personally have no problem at all with chain gangs out cleaning the streets, in the

desert, in August!

Kari
03-20-2004, 08:05 AM
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Exit,

You are really starting to worry me. Other

than the military school, I couldn\'t agree more. Although the idea of every person being required to do some form

of service, military or civil, for about 18 months after they finish school has a lot of merit.

People who

don\'t want to put in the effort to raise kids need to either practice birth control or keep their friggin pants

on. There\'s a lot of time and effort that goes into raising civilized human beings.

<hr

/></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

Agreed. There was local case of an unhandleable child. The school tried

to get the parents involved. The parents said,\" We\'re stuck with them three months out of the year. The rest of

the year they\'re the school\'s problem.\"

Um.... why did you have kids?

EXIT63
03-20-2004, 09:20 AM
Well the thing with the military schools is that they provide a much needed discipline. Although it\'s not right

to ship your kids off and wash your hands of them.

How about a couple of hundred military style semi-boarding

public high schools. Maybe the kids can come home on weekends. And when they reach a certain age they can be sent

to a real army boot camp. These schools can target inner-city kids who don\'t exactly have nuclear families.



My point is that without proper discipline and education these kids are screwed. Especially in todays economy.

belgareth
03-20-2004, 09:58 AM
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Well the thing with the military schools is that

they provide a much needed discipline. Although it\'s not right to ship your kids off and wash your hands of

them.

How about a couple of hundred military style semi-boarding public high schools. Maybe the kids can come

home on weekends. And when they reach a certain age they can be sent to a real army boot camp. These schools can

target inner-city kids who don\'t exactly have nuclear families.

My point is that without proper discipline

and education these kids are screwed. Especially in todays economy.

<hr /></blockquote><font

class=\"post\">

So, will these schools have the authority to enforce discipline? Without being sued twice a

week for making kids behave? You\'ll get no argument about the need for discipline with kids. The biggest problem

is starting so late. Kids need it as soon as they can comprehend it and that is very young. By doing it then, less

is needed later.

OCP
03-20-2004, 09:37 PM
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
</font><blockquote><font

class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr

/>
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Yes I know Pancho, some kids are just evil, and

are well aware of their actions. The whole \"What about the kids, or how will the kids handle this.\" stuff in

America is way over done. I still feel if a 13, 14, 15 year old or even younger who has done something criminal say

like murder, they deserve life in jail or death (debatable /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif). Kids

are babied and age is usually used as a exploitation. Jeffery Dahmer was cutting up animals when he was younger, and

yes he is evil and was \"f$cked up\" /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

<hr

/></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

If the dog can learn that it may not bite people, why can\'t a child

learn that s/he may not do harm?

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

They can and do, but there are

sociopath\'s(sp?) at all ages.

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

TOO true.

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

Frozen Vodka is

soooo goood1 /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif