View Full Version : This terrorist stuff is ridiculous
170
innocent lives lost in Spain, and these terrorists think they are any closer to achieving their cause?
EXIT63
03-11-2004, 07:32 AM
What cause?
franki
03-11-2004, 07:38 AM
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
What cause?
<hr /></blockquote><font
class=\"post\">
an independant basque-land I guess.
EXIT63
03-11-2004, 07:41 AM
oh
What do they call themselves? Basquets? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
an independant basque-land I guess.
<hr
/></blockquote><font class=\"post\"> and many of them don´t even care about that. Those terrorists are just
dumber than a person should be allowed to be if they think they will achieve getting an independant state by bombing
people!!!
The basque party are against those actions too (allegedly).
these terrorists are too braindead for their
own good IMO. Besides I have some doubts that a basque country or state will be able to survive on its own
economically in the long run.
franki
03-11-2004, 08:59 AM
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Besides I have some doubts that a basque country
or state will be able to survive on its own economically in the long run.
<hr /></blockquote><font
class=\"post\">
The Basque Country has traditionally been one of the most industrialized and rich parts of
Spain. I think that has been one of the reasons that wanted to be independant. Another one is that they have their
own language etc.
EXIT63
03-11-2004, 09:10 AM
What is it with you Europeans and your languages.
The Basques don\'t wanna speak spanish.
The Ukranians wanna
speak ukranian.
The Estonians don\'t wanna speak russian.
etc,etc,etc.
Why don\'t you just speak english
already and get it over with. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
I
think everyone should learn german that´ll really cause some mega confusion
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
The Basque Country has traditionally been one of
the most industrialized and rich parts of Spain. I think that has been one of the reasons that wanted to be
independant. Another one is that they have their own language etc.
<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
I´m not too familiar with them so thanks. However they´re not that successful all on their own, they have the rest
of spain as backup in some way. They just piss me off with their cowardish killings!!!
Having said that it is
atill not 100% certain whether the bomb attack was theirs or whether it was another groups of psychos.
Elana
03-11-2004, 12:50 PM
DUBAI (Reuters) - A letter
purporting to come from Osama bin Laden (news - web sites)\'s al Qaeda network claimed responsibility for the
train bombings in Spain on Thursday, calling them strikes against \"crusaders,\" a London-based Arabic newspaper
said.
franki
03-11-2004, 12:53 PM
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
DUBAI (Reuters) - A letter purporting to come from
Osama bin Laden (news - web sites)\'s al Qaeda network claimed responsibility for the train bombings in Spain on
Thursday, calling them strikes against \"crusaders,\" a London-based Arabic newspaper said.
<hr
/></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
yup, there were way too many victims for a \"normal\" ETA (basque
terrorists) attack. This could very well be the work of those Al Qaida morons..
Elana
03-11-2004, 12:56 PM
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
</font><blockquote><font
class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
DUBAI (Reuters) - A letter purporting to come from Osama bin Laden (news -
web sites)\'s al Qaeda network claimed responsibility for the train bombings in Spain on Thursday, calling them
strikes against \"crusaders,\" a London-based Arabic newspaper said.
<hr /></blockquote><font
class=\"post\">
yup, there were way too many victims for a \"normal\" ETA (basque terrorists) attack. This
could very well be the work of those Al Qaida morons..
<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
I got into
a huge fight with my co-worker about this when the news broke about the bombing. He was mad at me for saying it was
probably Al Qaeda. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif
I know, I watched BBC this
morning and they already said they didn´t know it was ETA or not. Seeing as Spain support(ed) the USA about Iraq,
Al Qaida is a distinct possibility.
ETA are also more `polite´ they phone or write first these people didn´t.
EXIT63
03-11-2004, 01:07 PM
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
I got into a huge fight with my co-worker about
this when the news broke about the bombing. He was mad at me for saying it was probably Al Qaeda
<hr
/></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
You co-worker has sh!t between his ears.
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
YOU WORK!?!? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif
Elana
03-11-2004, 01:09 PM
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
</font><blockquote><font
class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
I got into a huge fight with my co-worker about this when the news broke
about the bombing. He was mad at me for saying it was probably Al Qaeda
<hr /></blockquote><font
class=\"post\">
You co-worker has sh!t between his ears.
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
YOU WORK!?!? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif
<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
Kind of.....a few hours a day
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Elana
03-11-2004, 01:10 PM
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Your co-worker has sh!t between his ears.
<hr
/></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
Yeah, he was mad that I blame all terror on those poor lil Islamic
extremists. HA!
When they stop blowing people up, I will stop accusing them.
franki
03-11-2004, 01:22 PM
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
YOU WORK!?!?
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif
<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
You
didn\'t know?? I thought you were almost as
well informed about Elana as I am..
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Elana
03-11-2004, 01:23 PM
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
</font><blockquote><font
class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
YOU WORK!?!? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif
<hr
/></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
You didn\'t know?? I thought you were almost as good informed about
Elana as me.. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
Porn.....I like to keep it quiet
franki
03-11-2004, 01:24 PM
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
</font><blockquote><font
class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Your co-worker has sh!t between his ears.
<hr /></blockquote><font
class=\"post\">
Yeah, he was mad that I blame all terror on those poor lil Islamic extremists. HA!
When
they stop blowing people up, I will stop accusing them.
<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
This is
a typical Al Qaeda style bombing. On tv here they said things in this direction as well. Don\'t forget Spain has a
lot of troops in Iraq at the moment.
Masacre is the word used
on spanish yahoo btw. And right on too. About 200 dead and around 1.421 infured so far after a series of bomb
attacks. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif
Elana
03-11-2004, 01:36 PM
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Masacre is the word used on spanish yahoo btw. And
right on too. About 200 dead and around 1.421 infured so far after a series of bomb attacks.
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif
<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">It\'s horrible.
The pictures are heart breaking /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif
This stuff will never go
away, unless some sort of concessions are made, no matter who we bomb.
Innocent people are dying in the
crossfire.
Rakesh
03-11-2004, 03:15 PM
I\'m actually more
pissed at the people who immedietely started blaming the Basques, particularly some Pedro Gonzales idiot of a
politician who said something to the extent of having no doubt in his mind that the ETA is responsible. Good for
your elections and good as an excuse to level the basque areas, but from the beginning everything suggested the
opposite.
They want their own land, they\'re not idiotic enough to do something like this (which would of
course never get them anywhere). Plus ETA always strikes purposefuly, they blow up police stations and military
objects, no big TV show with flashy wrecks and weeping relatives.
belgareth
03-11-2004, 03:18 PM
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
This stuff will never go away, unless some sort of
concessions are made, no matter who we bomb.
Innocent people are dying in the crossfire.
<hr
/></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
Concessions won\'t make any difference. Innocent people were dying
before we started hunting Al Qaeda. Like any other extortionist, they\'ll be back demanding more and bigger
concessions the next time.
franki
03-11-2004, 03:19 PM
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Plus ETA always strikes purposefuly, they blow up
police stations and military objects, no big TV show with flashy wrecks and weeping relatives.
<hr
/></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
Yeah, but is also known that ETA has had problems recruiting new
terrorists, getting new supporters etc. This could have been a former/extreme part of ETA that was not happy with
what was happening and decided to do this..
Rakesh
03-11-2004, 03:21 PM
Truth is that this has
happened to the IRA in the past with splinter groups going on a rampage.
</font><blockquote><font
class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
This stuff
will never go away, unless some sort of concessions are made, no matter who we bomb.
Innocent people are dying in
the crossfire.
<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
Concessions won\'t make any difference.
Innocent people were dying before we started hunting Al Qaeda. Like any other extortionist, they\'ll be back
demanding more and bigger concessions the next time.
<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
My whole
point is, trying to hunt Al Qaeda will not stop things like happening from this. Also, I wouldn\'t consider
hunting them a concession.
Ideals are impractical. You can\'t root out everyone who is angry at you. And all
it takes is one angry person to do a lot of harm. There needs to be more appeasement with the Muslim world.
belgareth
03-11-2004, 03:34 PM
I\'ll agree that
we need to leave the muslim world to run itself, stop interfering with their way of life and government. Appeasement
is not and never will be acceptable though. Hunting them is not a concession. Simply put, there is only one way to
handle somebody who attacks you and appeasement is not it. We do not belong over there trying to tell them how to
live but they have no right to take innocent lives in any act of terrorism. Attacking innocent people, no matter who
does it, is always wrong and cannot be tolerated.
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Simply put, there is only one way to handle
somebody who attacks you and appeasement is not it.
<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
Well,
muslims and muslim extremists are two different parties. I agree that it isa dangerous message to send if we just
concede everything and give them what they want, but I am just saying give them enough to where the anger isn\'t
so great.
I\'m not willing to be a sacrificial lamb in the ideal of don\'t bargain with terrorists.
belgareth
03-11-2004, 03:49 PM
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
</font><blockquote><font
class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Simply put, there is only one way to handle somebody who attacks you and
appeasement is not it.
<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
Well, muslims and muslim extremists are
two different parties. I agree that it isa dangerous message to send if we just concede everything and give them
what they want, but I am just saying give them enough to where the anger isn\'t so great.
I\'m not willing
to be a sacrificial lamb in the ideal of don\'t bargain with terrorists.
<hr /></blockquote><font
class=\"post\">
I am unwilling to give an inch to terrorists. Their actions are extortion and as I said before,
any concession will result in greater demands. An act of terrorism shows the person is not rational and is is
unlikely to be willing to meet you half way. Look at other similar groups and tell me one that has been willing to
honestly compromise and stop the killing. Becoming a sacraficial lamb does not appeal to me either but I\'d rather
go out fighting for my beliefs now than to pay the piper time and again before he decides to blow me up.
EXIT63
03-11-2004, 04:28 PM
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
This stuff will never go away, unless some sort of
concessions are made, no matter who we bomb.
<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
Nonsense.
There\'s only one way to deal with terrorism.
With swift and blinding violence!
Elana
03-11-2004, 04:32 PM
EXIT FOR PRESIDENT!
</font><blockquote><font
class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Simply
put, there is only one way to handle somebody who attacks you and appeasement is not it.
<hr
/></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
Well, muslims and muslim extremists are two different parties. I agree
that it isa dangerous message to send if we just concede everything and give them what they want, but I am just
saying give them enough to where the anger isn\'t so great.
I\'m not willing to be a sacrificial lamb in
the ideal of don\'t bargain with terrorists.
<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
bjf
Your
replies to this thread really got my blood up! I\'ll try to be kind. You need to stop listening to NPR. Try
reading some books on the subject. Start with \"Tea with Terrorists\". Elana can give you some more titles. Stop
listening to left wing appeasement propaganda and find out who your enemy is and why he wants YOU dead. Here\'s
the long and the short of it. Do you believe in allah? Did you bend your knee to him in submission today? If you
didn\'t and aren\'t willing to then osama, taking his instructions from the Koran and the Hadif, wants you dead.
Below is a post I made to another Forum a few months back.
islam means \"submission\". Contrary to the swill
being feed to us by the media and our politicians, islam is NOT a religion of Peace. There are two books that are
the \"Hand books\" of islam. The koran, which most have heard of, and the Hadif, which most have not heard of.
Neither books have any reference to \"Peace\" in them at all. Both books expound the teachings of mohamed the
\"profit\", who, by all accounts, was a rather creepy little deformed white guy with a goitered neck who hated
Jews. According to these books, islam means \"submission, by sword, to the will of allah !! Submit to Allah or
die!!!!
According to mohamed and the \"books\" of islam there are two worlds! Dar el islam and Dar el Harb. Dar
el islam is the world belonging to islam and allah. Dar el Harb is everything else. According to allah, mohamed and
his books, everything which is not islam, i.e.. Dar el Harb, must die. Submit to allah and islam or die is the only
message in the books of islam. The Hadif is the handbook on how to make the world of Dar el Harb submit to allah and
islam. The Hadif is the book that osama bin laden and the \"True\" believers read and adhere to. The Hadif is
about 600 pages long and gets into great detail about how to convert, by the sword, Dar el Harb into Dar el islam.
Lie, cheat, steal and murder are it\'s main means of conversion.
The message of allah, mohamed and islam is
simple. You are either part of islam or you must die!!! It doesn\'t matter if you\'re a Christian or a Jew or a
Buddhist or an Aitheist; an American, a Frenchmen or if you\'re Chinese; if you\'re not islam and refuse to
\"submit\" to islam then you need to die. This is according to allah\'s \"Will\". The world of islam breaks
down into two groups. Good islamists and bad islamists. The bad islamist don\'t read and adhere to the book. The
good islamist do read and adhere to the book. It\'s kinda like nazi Germany. You had good nazi\'s and bad
nazi\'s. The good nazi\'s bought into the lies and took part in the murders. The bad nazi\'s were swept along
keeping their mouths shut lest they get sent to the camps as well.
I am not optimistic about the future. As long
as we have this \"head up the ass, politically correct\" , \"Can\'t we all just get along\" attitude toward
islam, we\'re F*CKED!!!!!
In the words of a rather infamous Brother. \"The time has come for each and every
one of you to decide. Brothers and Sisters, take 5 seconds to decide weather you want to be part of the problem or
part of the solution. 5 seconds is all you need.\"
Read some books bjf and take your 5 seconds!
Peace out
Bro.
Macky, can you name that Brother?
What can I say? It all
sounds good on paper, but when your sister was blocks from the WTC, your brother and law is with cantor fitzgerald,
your boss is in the wtc, your co-workers know a highjacker, and everyone you know knew people who had to jump to
their death or were blown to bits, ideals get thrown out the window.
You can\'t just squash out every crazy
person like ants, you have to address the issue that they are so angry about. If this doesn\'t happen, then
myself, my family, my friends, my coworkers and my neighbors could just get blown up in the middle of reading the
morning paper.
I think some of their angers are probably legitimate and it is time to make some concessions, even
if we do not agree, because whatever we are protecting is not worth more than the lives of the people who have
already died.
</font><blockquote><font
class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
DUBAI (Reuters) - A letter purporting to come from Osama bin Laden (news -
web sites)\'s al Qaeda network claimed responsibility for the train bombings in Spain on Thursday, calling them
strikes against \"crusaders,\" a London-based Arabic newspaper said.
<hr /></blockquote><font
class=\"post\">
Osama hashad very serious kidney disease. He has needed regular dialysis. Some of the Eastern
and Middle-Eastern papers are saying that he died months ago. Some people think we are keeping him \"alive\" to
have a rationale for some of our activities.
EXIT63
03-11-2004, 04:49 PM
And I saw Elvis at
Dunkin Donuts.
franki
03-11-2004, 04:54 PM
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
</font><blockquote><font
class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
DUBAI (Reuters) - A letter purporting to come from Osama bin Laden (news -
web sites)\'s al Qaeda network claimed responsibility for the train bombings in Spain on Thursday, calling them
strikes against \"crusaders,\" a London-based Arabic newspaper said.
<hr /></blockquote><font
class=\"post\">
Osama hashad very serious kidney disease. He has needed regular dialysis. Some of the Eastern
and Middle-Eastern papers are saying that he died months ago. Some people think we are keeping him \"alive\" to
have a rationale for some of our activities.
<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
Even if he would be
dead. There is still plenty of reason to hunt those Al Qaeda and Taliban guys in Afghanistan after all that has
happened.
Elana
03-11-2004, 05:01 PM
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
</font><blockquote><font
class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Simply
put, there is only one way to handle somebody who attacks you and appeasement is not it.
<hr
/></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
Well, muslims and muslim extremists are two different parties. I agree
that it isa dangerous message to send if we just concede everything and give them what they want, but I am just
saying give them enough to where the anger isn\'t so great.
I\'m not willing to be a sacrificial lamb in
the ideal of don\'t bargain with terrorists.
<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
bjf
Your
replies to this thread really got my blood up! I\'ll try to be kind. You need to stop listening to NPR. Try
reading some books on the subject. Start with \"Tea with Terrorists\". Elana can give you some more titles. Stop
listening to left wing appeasement propaganda and find out who your enemy is and why he wants YOU dead. Here\'s
the long and the short of it. Do you believe in allah? Did you bend your knee to him in submission today? If you
didn\'t and aren\'t willing to then osama, taking his instructions from the Koran and the Hadif, wants you dead.
Below is a post I made to another Forum a few months back.
islam means \"submission\". Contrary to the swill
being feed to us by the media and our politicians, islam is NOT a religion of Peace. There are two books that are
the \"Hand books\" of islam. The koran, which most have heard of, and the Hadif, which most have not heard of.
Neither books have any reference to \"Peace\" in them at all. Both books expound the teachings of mohamed the
\"profit\", who, by all accounts, was a rather creepy little deformed white guy with a goitered neck who hated
Jews. According to these books, islam means \"submission, by sword, to the will of allah !! Submit to Allah or
die!!!!
According to mohamed and the \"books\" of islam there are two worlds! Dar el islam and Dar el Harb. Dar
el islam is the world belonging to islam and allah. Dar el Harb is everything else. According to allah, mohamed and
his books, everything which is not islam, i.e.. Dar el Harb, must die. Submit to allah and islam or die is the only
message in the books of islam. The Hadif is the handbook on how to make the world of Dar el Harb submit to allah and
islam. The Hadif is the book that osama bin laden and the \"True\" believers read and adhere to. The Hadif is
about 600 pages long and gets into great detail about how to convert, by the sword, Dar el Harb into Dar el islam.
Lie, cheat, steal and murder are it\'s main means of conversion.
The message of allah, mohamed and islam is
simple. You are either part of islam or you must die!!! It doesn\'t matter if you\'re a Christian or a Jew or a
Buddhist or an Aitheist; an American, a Frenchmen or if you\'re Chinese; if you\'re not islam and refuse to
\"submit\" to islam then you need to die. This is according to allah\'s \"Will\". The world of islam breaks
down into two groups. Good islamists and bad islamists. The bad islamist don\'t read and adhere to the book. The
good islamist do read and adhere to the book. It\'s kinda like nazi Germany. You had good nazi\'s and bad
nazi\'s. The good nazi\'s bought into the lies and took part in the murders. The bad nazi\'s were swept along
keeping their mouths shut lest they get sent to the camps as well.
I am not optimistic about the future. As long
as we have this \"head up the ass, politically correct\" , \"Can\'t we all just get along\" attitude toward
islam, we\'re F*CKED!!!!!
In the words of a rather infamous Brother. \"The time has come for each and every
one of you to decide. Brothers and Sisters, take 5 seconds to decide weather you want to be part of the problem or
part of the solution. 5 seconds is all you need.\"
Read some books bjf and take your 5 seconds!
Peace out
Bro.
Macky, can you name that Brother?
<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
DAMN GOOD POST,
ASH!!! I take back my Oprah comment. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Elana
03-11-2004, 05:03 PM
bjf....I am not sure
what world you are living in, but if you really think that you can reason with these monsters you have got another
thing coming. Unless you want to convert and believe what they tell you to believe, then they want you just as dead
as those thousands of Americans that were killed at the WTC on 9/11
\"These
monsters\"???
You really think all muslims are monsters?
I highly doubt that.
Elana
03-11-2004, 05:14 PM
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
\"These monsters\"???
You really think all
muslims are monsters?
I highly doubt that.
<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
We aren\'t
talking about ALL MUSLIMS. We are dealing with Islamic fundimentalists. Do you seriously think that you can
\"reason\" with them?
Elana
03-11-2004, 05:19 PM
bjf...I couldn\'t
even believe what I was reading when I saw your first post. I convinced myself that I was misinterpreting what you
were saying. I am actually shocked that you think that there is some leverage here, as if any of us could change the
mindset of pure evil.
</font><blockquote><font
class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
\"These
monsters\"???
You really think all muslims are monsters?
I highly doubt that.
<hr
/></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
We aren\'t talking about ALL MUSLIMS. We are dealing with Islamic
fundimentalists. Do you seriously think that you can \"reason\" with them?
<hr /></blockquote><font
class=\"post\">
Well, since you were addressing my point of view, and I stated that I was talking about
dealing with the issues of the muslim population, not bartering with extremists, I think that is an irrelavent
debate.
I never talked about negotiating with terrorists. Here are quotes from my posts:
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
There needs to be more appeasement with the Muslim
world.
<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
</font><blockquote><font
class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Well, muslims and muslim extremists are two different parties.
<hr
/></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
Elana
03-11-2004, 05:22 PM
How do you suggest we
deal with the Muslim population? If you had the stage, what would you say to them? I am not understanding what point
you want to get across to them so that they will change their mindset.
</font><blockquote><font
class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
How do you suggest we deal with the Muslim population? If you had the stage,
what would you say to them? I am not understanding what point you want to get across to them so that they will
change their mindset.
<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
You are not understanding what point I
wanted to get across to the muslim population because I never stated I had one for them.
I don\'t claim to
have answers as to how to appease anyone. But I think that intelligence and military won\'t get the job done.
190 families learned that today.
More of the concerns in the muslim community need to be addressed. Anger on
their part is not a good thing from where I am sitting at, at that is all I know I know, whether it is satisfactory
to anyone or not. Again, I don\'t claim to have some panacea in mind to all of this.
Elana
03-11-2004, 05:38 PM
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
More of the concerns in the muslim community need
to be addressed.
<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
Like what? What can we do to make them like us?
</font><blockquote><font
class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
What can I say? It all sounds good on paper, but when your sister was blocks
from the WTC, your brother and law is with cantor fitzgerald, your boss is in the wtc, your co-workers know a
highjacker, and everyone you know knew people who had to jump to their death or were blown to bits, ideals get
thrown out the window.
You can\'t just squash out every crazy person like ants, you have to address the issue
that they are so angry about. If this doesn\'t happen, then myself, my family, my friends, my coworkers and my
neighbors could just get blown up in the middle of reading the morning paper.
I think some of their angers are
probably legitimate and it is time to make some concessions, even if we do not agree, because whatever we are
protecting is not worth more than the lives of the people who have already died.
<hr /></blockquote><font
class=\"post\">
Was this a reply to my post? I\'m not talking to my shadow bjf, I\'m talking to you! Read
my post again and maybe some of what I wrote will get through.
\"you have to address the issue that they are so
angry about.\" The only issue is we\'re not islam!!! What part of that don\'t you understand? We could
withdraw all our troops and remove all our interests in Muslim countries right now and osama would still be plotting
against us because we\'re not islam! I\'m sorry for your personal losses and grief about things but we\'re
going to lose a lot more people because of the attitude and ignorance of people like you. \"ideals get thrown out
the window.\" This isn\'t about ideals, it\'s about survival! I read your kiss-ass appeasement statements and
I almost get sick. What truly horrifies me about people like yourself is your lazy NPR spoon fed minds. You\'re
ignorance on the subject condemns you to being a victim. You have the right to be a victim if you choose. You
don\'t have the right to make me a victim too.
Estimates are about one billion Muslims with only about 5%
being of the Fundamentalist persuasion. That\'s 500,000,000 that want YOU dead personally because you\'re not
Muslim.
</font><blockquote><font
class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
More of the
concerns in the muslim community need to be addressed.
<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
Like
what? What can we do to make them like us?
<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
Read the above
post and you woildn\'t ask me that.
It was hell around here during 9/11, and there has been continous
attacls after that. I\'m willing to take a deal that might even be unfair to some, but helps stop these attacks
that will never cease if we do not work with the Muslim community.
</font><blockquote><font
class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
I take back my Oprah comment.
<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif
I must have missed that one. I\'ll find it and get back to
you.
tallmacky
03-11-2004, 05:48 PM
Brother J.C
Crawford, Ash?
Bjf Elana\'s and Ash\'s posts have been remarkable....Personally if you look at the Muslim
community in America you will see things and you will see that they do not want to even be \"addressed\".
bjf,
you should really open a ear to what Elana and Ash are saying, I know you are a really nice guy (like me) and find
some things hard to believe, like I once did, but the knowledge is right there, and I finally learnt something about
the situation then I talked about it. Not being rude to you but there is a lot to know and Elana knows it like the
back of her hand and knows the dangers and so forth.
Elana
03-11-2004, 05:50 PM
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
</font><blockquote><font
class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
More of the
concerns in the muslim community need to be addressed.
<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
Like
what? What can we do to make them like us?
<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
Read the above post
and you won\'t ask me that.
It was hell around here during 9/11, and there has been continous bombings after
that. I\'m willing to take a deal that might even be unfair to some, but helps stop these attacks that will never
cease if we do not work with the Muslim community.
<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
This has
been going on for many years. This is not some new wave dislike towards Americans. I am still not getting what you
blame us for to make these monsters want to kill us.
</font><blockquote><font
class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Brother J.C Crawford, Ash?
Bjf Elana\'s and Ash\'s posts have been
remarkable....Personally if you look at the Muslim community in America you will see things and you will see that
they do not want to even be \"addressed\".
bjf, you should really open a ear to what Elana and Ash are saying,
I know you are a really nice guy (like me) and find some things hard to believe, like I once did, but the knowledge
is right there, and I finally learnt something about the situation then I talked about it. Not being rude to you but
there is a lot to know and Elana knows it like the back of her hand and knows the dangers and so forth.
<hr
/></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
TM, I have no doubt she knows more about the conflict than I do between
Jews and muslims.
Again, there is a big difference between life and death and ideals.
Elana
03-11-2004, 05:56 PM
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Again, there is a big difference between life and
death and ideals.
<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
So what would you suggest we do to make them not
want to kill us? I am just trying to understand your point. I am not trying to be a bitch. I just wanna make some
sense out of what you are getting at.
</font><blockquote><font
class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
More of the concerns in the muslim community need
to be addressed.
<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
Like what? What can we do to make them like us?
<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
Read the above post and you woildn\'t ask me that.
It was
hell around here during 9/11, and there has been continous attacls after that. I\'m willing to take a deal that
might even be unfair to some, but helps stop these attacks that will never cease if we do not work with the Muslim
community.
<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
For now they want the \"blood of every living
Jew to wash the streets of Jerusalem\". Is that the kind of deal you want?
Elana
03-11-2004, 05:59 PM
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
</font><blockquote><font
class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
More of the concerns in the muslim community need
to be addressed.
<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
Like what? What can we do to make them like us?
<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
Read the above post and you woildn\'t ask me that.
It was
hell around here during 9/11, and there has been continous attacls after that. I\'m willing to take a deal that
might even be unfair to some, but helps stop these attacks that will never cease if we do not work with the Muslim
community.
<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
For now they want the \"blood of every living
Jew to wash the streets of Jerusalem\". Is that the kind of deal you want?
<hr /></blockquote><font
class=\"post\">
Not in my lifetime. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif
Elana
03-11-2004, 06:06 PM
or any thereafter
Do you guys seriously
think that diminishing anger in the muslim comumnity requires spilling the blood of every jew?
I\'d strongly
disagree.
Elana
03-11-2004, 06:10 PM
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Do you guys seriously think that diminishing anger
in the muslim comumnity requires spilling the blood of every jew?
I\'d strongly disagree.
<hr
/></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
This has nothing to do with diminishing their anger. It is their goal.
What fairy tale land are you living in? You are acting as this is all news to you, as if you have never heard this
before.
Mtnjim
03-11-2004, 06:11 PM
\"This has been going
on for many years. This is not some new wave dislike towards Americans. I am still not getting what you blame us for
to make these monsters want to kill us.\"
Heck, they\'re still pissed off at us, Briton, and France for our
actions there after WW I.And saying ALL Muslims are evil because of the fundamentalists would be like saying all
protestants and Catholics are evil based on the fundamentalists in Northern Ireland.
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif
</font><blockquote><font
class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Do you guys seriously think that diminishing anger in the muslim comumnity
requires spilling the blood of every jew?
I\'d strongly disagree.
<hr /></blockquote><font
class=\"post\">
I don\'t believe that bjf but they do. If you weren\'t so bullsh**ted by propaganda
you\'d know that too.
Elana
03-11-2004, 06:13 PM
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
And saying ALL Muslims are evil because of the
fundamentalists would be like saying all protestants and Catholics are evil based on the fundamentalists in Northern
Ireland.
<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
I don\'t think that anyone here is saying that.
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
tallmacky
03-11-2004, 06:19 PM
It seems that the
impact of 9/11 has almost completey faded away. Or what potenial\'s may erupt?
I can see how those not from
the U.S. can and maybe not feel as strongly (9/11), but this time it happen In Europe, in Spain. How is appeasement
working out now? This is the worst act of terorism I believe Spain has ever had. When we hear 190 dead in this day
and age many can take that lightly, but just imagine that, bro?
Obviously not bjf, a mass killing out of
cracked religious sake is the worst act of intolerance (pure dangerous hate/bigotry), someone thought that you and
your ideas were so wrong that they felt the need to destroy your life? How do you deal with this? How else can you?
What other choice man?
I mean brutually killing people on the masses should send up the \"what the f*ck is
going on, we have a huge f*cking problem!\" alert signal eh? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif
Elana
03-11-2004, 06:23 PM
I refuse to let
American\'s take any of the blame for the deaths of those innocent people on 9/11 and all of the other terrorists
acts that occurred and killed thousands of innocent lives. That is outrageous and it insults me to the core.
</font><blockquote><font
class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Do you guys
seriously think that diminishing anger in the muslim comumnity requires spilling the blood of every jew?
I\'d
strongly disagree.
<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
This has nothing to do with
diminishing their anger. It is their goal. What fairy tale land are you living in? You are acting as this is all
news to you, as if you have never heard this before.
<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
The goal of
the muslims I know isnt spilling my blood. They are good people.
Just like there is indoctrination over there
about jews and westerners, there is indoctrination here about muslims.
This has everyting to do with diminishing
anger in the muslim community, as innocent people are losing their lives. I can\'t underscore to you enough of
how horrific such tragedies are.
So I\'ll keep my position on this matter, and we will have to agree to
disagree.
Elana
03-11-2004, 06:29 PM
With all due
respect....you are clueless on this subject. My jaw has dropped to the floor. I don\'t know what else to say.
Elana
03-11-2004, 06:33 PM
Maybe if we send them
fruit baskets they will like us
</font><blockquote><font
class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr
/>
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
This stuff will never go away, unless some sort
of concessions are made, no matter who we bomb.
Innocent people are dying in the crossfire.
<hr
/></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
Concessions won\'t make any difference. Innocent people were dying
before we started hunting Al Qaeda. Like any other extortionist, they\'ll be back demanding more and bigger
concessions the next time.
<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
My whole point is, trying to hunt Al
Qaeda will not stop things like happening from this. Also, I wouldn\'t consider hunting them a
concession.
Ideals are impractical. You can\'t root out everyone who is angry at you. And all it takes is one
angry person to do a lot of harm. There needs to be more appeasement with the Muslim world.
<hr
/></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
The Muslim world does not want appeasement! They want the destruction of
the Jews. They are no different than Hitler, except they are complete cowards the kill innocent people.
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif
</font><blockquote><font
class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
I\'ll agree that we need to leave the muslim world to run itself, stop
interfering with their way of life and government.
<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
Only when
they stop interferring with our way of life and the Israeli way of life. These people are the absolute scum of the
earth and they need to be treated that way.
</font><blockquote><font
class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
This stuff
will never go away, unless some sort of concessions are made, no matter who we bomb.
<hr /></blockquote><font
class=\"post\">
Nonsense. There\'s only one way to deal with terrorism.
With swift and blinding
violence!
<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
I second that!! Kudos to Bush for having the
Huevos to after the bastards!
</font><blockquote><font
class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
EXIT FOR PRESIDENT!
<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
Can
I be VP! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Elana
03-11-2004, 06:41 PM
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
</font><blockquote><font
class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
EXIT FOR PRESIDENT!
<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
Can
I be VP! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
I
don\'t know. You scare me. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Oh what the hell. Sure.
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
</font><blockquote><font
class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Simply put, there is only one way to handle
somebody who attacks you and appeasement is not it.
<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
Well,
muslims and muslim extremists are two different parties. I agree that it isa dangerous message to send if we just
concede everything and give them what they want, but I am just saying give them enough to where the anger isn\'t
so great.
I\'m not willing to be a sacrificial lamb in the ideal of don\'t bargain with terrorists.
<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
bjf
Your replies to this thread really got my blood up!
I\'ll try to be kind. You need to stop listening to NPR. Try reading some books on the subject. Start with \"Tea
with Terrorists\". Elana can give you some more titles. Stop listening to left wing appeasement propaganda and find
out who your enemy is and why he wants YOU dead. Here\'s the long and the short of it. Do you believe in allah?
Did you bend your knee to him in submission today? If you didn\'t and aren\'t willing to then osama, taking his
instructions from the Koran and the Hadif, wants you dead. Below is a post I made to another Forum a few months
back.
islam means \"submission\". Contrary to the swill being feed to us by the media and our politicians,
islam is NOT a religion of Peace. There are two books that are the \"Hand books\" of islam. The koran, which most
have heard of, and the Hadif, which most have not heard of. Neither books have any reference to \"Peace\" in them
at all. Both books expound the teachings of mohamed the \"profit\", who, by all accounts, was a rather creepy
little deformed white guy with a goitered neck who hated Jews. According to these books, islam means \"submission,
by sword, to the will of allah !! Submit to Allah or die!!!!
According to mohamed and the \"books\" of islam
there are two worlds! Dar el islam and Dar el Harb. Dar el islam is the world belonging to islam and allah. Dar el
Harb is everything else. According to allah, mohamed and his books, everything which is not islam, i.e.. Dar el
Harb, must die. Submit to allah and islam or die is the only message in the books of islam. The Hadif is the
handbook on how to make the world of Dar el Harb submit to allah and islam. The Hadif is the book that osama bin
laden and the \"True\" believers read and adhere to. The Hadif is about 600 pages long and gets into great detail
about how to convert, by the sword, Dar el Harb into Dar el islam. Lie, cheat, steal and murder are it\'s main
means of conversion.
The message of allah, mohamed and islam is simple. You are either part of islam or you must
die!!! It doesn\'t matter if you\'re a Christian or a Jew or a Buddhist or an Aitheist; an American, a Frenchmen
or if you\'re Chinese; if you\'re not islam and refuse to \"submit\" to islam then you need to die. This is
according to allah\'s \"Will\". The world of islam breaks down into two groups. Good islamists and bad
islamists. The bad islamist don\'t read and adhere to the book. The good islamist do read and adhere to the book.
It\'s kinda like nazi Germany. You had good nazi\'s and bad nazi\'s. The good nazi\'s bought into the lies
and took part in the murders. The bad nazi\'s were swept along keeping their mouths shut lest they get sent to the
camps as well.
I am not optimistic about the future. As long as we have this \"head up the ass, politically
correct\" , \"Can\'t we all just get along\" attitude toward islam, we\'re F*CKED!!!!!
In the words of a
rather infamous Brother. \"The time has come for each and every one of you to decide. Brothers and Sisters, take 5
seconds to decide weather you want to be part of the problem or part of the solution. 5 seconds is all you
need.\"
Read some books bjf and take your 5 seconds!
Peace out Bro.
Macky, can you name that Brother?
<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
Ash, what you wrote is 100% correct, but the wimpy liberal in the
states and the world just refuse to believe it. The Muslims will not stop until they conquer the world. That is
their goal. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif
Elana
03-11-2004, 06:46 PM
Ash is extremely in the
know when it comes to this subject. I have had many talks with him about it and the guy is very well read and not
from biased sources.
</font><blockquote><font
class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Ash, what you wrote is 100% correct, but the wimpy liberal in the states and
the world just refuse to believe it. The Muslims will not stop until they conquer the world. That is their goal.
<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
Yeah, we\'re F*CKED!!
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif I\'m going to go read E\'s bad about me now. That\'ll make
me feel better. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
Elana
03-11-2004, 06:50 PM
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
</font><blockquote><font
class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Ash, what you wrote is 100% correct, but the wimpy liberal in the states and
the world just refuse to believe it. The Muslims will not stop until they conquer the world. That is their goal.
<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
Yeah, we\'re F*CKED!!
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif I\'m going to go read E\'s bad about me now. That\'ll make
me feel better. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
<hr /></blockquote><font
class=\"post\">
I took it back /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif sorry
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
The muslim community
aren\'t robots who just go doing whatever their book tells them to.
There are plenty of muslims who do want
peace.
</font><blockquote><font
class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
How do you
suggest we deal with the Muslim population? If you had the stage, what would you say to them? I am not understanding
what point you want to get across to them so that they will change their mindset.
<hr /></blockquote><font
class=\"post\">
I don\'t claim to have answers as to how to appease anyone. But I think that intelligence and
military won\'t get the job done. 190 families learned that today.
<hr /></blockquote><font
class=\"post\">
If not the brave men in the military putting their butts in harms way then who will get it
done! You?, with your little whiny \"can\'t we all just get along\" attitude! The Un with their \"let\'s be
politically correct\" attitude? These people are not screwing around and they have to be removed from the face of
this earth and the sooner the better.
Oh, BTW, the 190 families were affected by the terroists and not the
military. Do not forget that!
Elana
03-11-2004, 07:06 PM
Maybe we should have
appeased Hitler
</font><blockquote><font
class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
The muslim community aren\'t robots who just go doing whatever their book
tells them to.
<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
That\'s right bjf. Those
that DON\"T read the book want and love peace. It\'s the 500,000,000 that do read the book that you have to worry
about. Elana and I and a few others have to worry about the 500M plus people like you! Personally I\'m not
frightened by the 500M but your vacuous intransigent mind scares the S out of me.
</font><blockquote><font
class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
If not the brave men in the military putting their butts in harms way then
who will get it done!
<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
The military and intelligence are great
tools, but innocent people are still too vunerable.
</font><blockquote><font
class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
You?, with your little whiny \"can\'t we all just get along\" attitude!
<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
Not me. I went through this with Elana.
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
The Un with their \"let\'s be politically
correct\" attitude? These people are not screwing around and they have to be removed from the face of this earth
and the sooner the better.
<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
Yep, they are not screwing around.
Keep on using the military and intelligence to remove the nutcases. But do you think we can just exteriminate them?
Obviously not. We have to improve our relations with the Muslim community, THE MODERATES. It is too bad you have
such a low opinion of muslims in general, but perhaps I am misunderstanding you.
</font><blockquote><font
class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Oh, BTW, the 190 families were affected by the terroists and not the
military. Do not forget that!
<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
Saying the military and intelligence
can only go so far does not translate into blaming them for everything.
</font><blockquote><font
class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Do you guys seriously think that diminishing anger in the muslim comumnity
requires spilling the blood of every jew?
I\'d strongly disagree.
<hr /></blockquote><font
class=\"post\">
Then you have your head in the sand and do not really understand the issues.
</font><blockquote><font
class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr
/>
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Do you guys seriously think that diminishing
anger in the muslim comumnity requires spilling the blood of every jew?
I\'d strongly disagree.
<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
This has nothing to do with diminishing their anger. It is their
goal. What fairy tale land are you living in? You are acting as this is all news to you, as if you have never heard
this before.
<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
The goal of the muslims I know isnt spilling my
blood. They are good people.
<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
1) You know little about
Muslims.
2) How many Muslims do you personally know?
3) I suspect the answer is NONE, so how would you know if
they are good people or not?
</font><blockquote><font
class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Maybe if we send them fruit baskets they will like us
<hr
/></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
Only if there are grenades in the basket.
</font><blockquote><font
class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr
/>
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
EXIT FOR PRESIDENT!
<hr
/></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
Can I be VP! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
<hr
/></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
I don\'t know. You scare me.
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Oh what the hell. Sure.
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
I scare you?
Damn girl, I am terrified of you! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
</font><blockquote><font
class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Do you guys
seriously think that diminishing anger in the muslim comumnity requires spilling the blood of every jew?
I\'d
strongly disagree.
<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
Then you have your head in the sand
and do not really understand the issues.
<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
I hope you get to meet
more or meet some muslims in your lifetime, and maybe your opinion of this will change.
In any case, the premise
of our arguments obviously differ, so we will just have to agree to disagree. Hopefully, we can put this one to
bed now.
</font><blockquote><font
class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
The muslim community aren\'t robots who just go doing whatever their book
tells them to.
There are plenty of muslims who do want peace.
<hr /></blockquote><font
class=\"post\">
How do you know this? You do not know this. You think that these people think like you. They
do not! They think much differently than Western society. They feel it is their devine right to rule the world.
</font><blockquote><font
class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Maybe we should have appeased Hitler
<hr /></blockquote><font
class=\"post\">
We tried.....it did not work then either.
</font><blockquote><font
class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Yep, they are not screwing around. Keep on using the military and
intelligence to remove the nutcases. But do you think we can just exteriminate them? Obviously not. We have to
improve our relations with the Muslim community, THE MODERATES. It is too bad you have such a low opinion of
muslims in general, but perhaps I am misunderstanding you.
<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
Nope,
you understand exactly what I am saying. Islam is dangerous to ALL the peace loving nations in the world!
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
1) You know little about Muslims.
2)
How many Muslims do you personally know?
3) I suspect the answer is NONE, so how would you know if they are
good people or not?
<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
LOL!
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr
/>
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Maybe we should have appeased Hitler
<hr
/></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
We tried.....it did not work then either.
<hr
/></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
I didn\'t say this, just for the record.
OCP, I am done
arguing.
</font><blockquote><font
class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
It is too bad you have such a low opinion of muslims in general, but perhaps
I am misunderstanding you.
<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
\"misunderstanding you\" would be
an understatement bjf. Nobody on this side of the discussion has even come close to making a statement that would
lead one to believe we have a low opinion of Muslims in general. DON\'T EVEN GO THERE!
Ash, did I say that to
you, or did I say that to OCP?
OCP didn\'t have any problems with it.
</font><blockquote><font
class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Yep, they
are not screwing around. Keep on using the military and intelligence to remove the nutcases. But do you think we
can just exteriminate them? Obviously not. We have to improve our relations with the Muslim community, THE
MODERATES. It is too bad you have such a low opinion of muslims in general, but perhaps I am misunderstanding you.
<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
Nope, you understand exactly what I am saying. Islam is dangerous
to ALL the peace loving nations in the world!
<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
Nighty Night!
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif
</font><blockquote><font
class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
1) You
know little about Muslims.
2) How many Muslims do you personally know?
3) I suspect the answer is NONE, so how
would you know if they are good people or not?
<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
LOL!
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr
/>
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Maybe we should have appeased Hitler
<hr
/></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
We tried.....it did not work then either.
<hr /></blockquote><font
class=\"post\">
I didn\'t say this, just for the record.
OCP, I am done arguing.
<hr
/></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
While you are LOL innocent people are dying because people like you refuse
to kick the Islam a$$ completely into submission!
</font><blockquote><font
class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Ash, did I say that to you, or did I say that to OCP?
OCP didn\'t have
any problems with it.
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
</font><blockquote><font
class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Yep, they are not screwing around. Keep on using the military and
intelligence to remove the nutcases. But do you think we can just exteriminate them? Obviously not. We have to
improve our relations with the Muslim community, THE MODERATES. It is too bad you have such a low opinion of
muslims in general, but perhaps I am misunderstanding you.
<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
Nope,
you understand exactly what I am saying. Islam is dangerous to ALL the peace loving nations in the world!
<hr
/></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
Nighty Night! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif
<hr
/></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
In this case bjf is correct.
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif
</font><blockquote><font
class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Ash, did I say that to you, or did I say that to OCP?
OCP didn\'t have
any problems with it.
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
</font><blockquote><font
class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Yep, they are not screwing around. Keep on using the military and
intelligence to remove the nutcases. But do you think we can just exteriminate them? Obviously not. We have to
improve our relations with the Muslim community, THE MODERATES. It is too bad you have such a low opinion of
muslims in general, but perhaps I am misunderstanding you.
<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
Nope,
you understand exactly what I am saying. Islam is dangerous to ALL the peace loving nations in the world!
<hr
/></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
Nighty Night! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif
<hr
/></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
I have no idea who you were addressing it to.
There is a big difference
between the world of Islam and the Muslim world. Keep in mind that the vast majority of Muslims can\'t and
don\'t read and don\'t know anything about their religion. The majority of true islamists get their teaching
from those who do and can read and they are taught from the Koran and the Hadif. Unlike most Muslims you, bjf, are
at least able to read. Go out and buy a used copy of the Koran. Take a few days to read it and come back here and
post your thoughts. Tell us how many passages you find that mention brotherly love, mercy and compassion for your
neighbor. Peace and world peace are mentioned in the Koran but are gained only after the great Jihad and the
submission of the world, by the sword, to allah. That is the PEACE OF ISLAM bjf. Don\'t take my word for it. Read
their book. Get your head out of your a** and do some work. As passionate as you seem to be about 911 do you not
think you owe it to those who were murdered to find out EXACTALLY WHY they were murdered? Until you actually read
something of substance on the subject your just a child pissing in my face about a bunch of things you know nothing
about. Uneducated and uninformed people like yourself are just as dangerous as the Terrorists. You make uninformed
stupid decisions based on your emotions and the way you \"feel\" about things. Grow up, get informed and get
pissed off about what happened on 911 instead of pissing your pants about it.
And thanks for the Nighty Night.
That was sweet!
franki
03-12-2004, 12:15 AM
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
</font><blockquote><font
class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
It is too bad you have such a low opinion of muslims in general, but perhaps
I am misunderstanding you.
<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
\"misunderstanding you\" would be
an understatement bjf. Nobody on this side of the discussion has even come close to making a statement that would
lead one to believe we have a low opinion of Muslims in general. DON\'T EVEN GO THERE!
<hr
/></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
OCP did. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
</font><blockquote><font
class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
It is too bad you have such a low opinion of muslims
in general, but perhaps I am misunderstanding you.
<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
\"misunderstanding you\" would be an understatement bjf. Nobody on this side of the discussion has even come
close to making a statement that would lead one to believe we have a low opinion of Muslims in general. DON\'T
EVEN GO THERE!
<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
OCP did.
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
No doubt OCP
temporarily lost his head in the heat of the debate.
belgareth
03-12-2004, 01:15 AM
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
</font><blockquote><font
class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
I\'ll agree that we need to leave the muslim world to run itself, stop
interfering with their way of life and government.
<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
Only when
they stop interferring with our way of life and the Israeli way of life. These people are the absolute scum of the
earth and they need to be treated that way.
<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
So long as we agree
that we are talking about the extremists. Most muslims do not participate in the senseless killings and only want to
live in peace. The people who attacked us, who attack the jewish and who attacked innocent people in Spain have
forfetted any right to life or peace.
DZorro
03-12-2004, 01:57 AM
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
The muslim community aren\'t robots who just go
doing whatever their book tells them to.
There are plenty of muslims who do want peace.
<hr
/></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
Obvios you do not know much about muslims at all.
If you do, can you even
tell me witch ones are the ones who wants peace ???
I live in the netherlands and a couple of months ago a muslim
boy killed his teacher just because he offended his honer, what so peacefull about muslim now hey ???
their way of
life differs so much from us that they suppress their own females over their because of some bullshit honer thing,
the diffrent with them and us are they use violence to get their point across, we use diplomattic cause to get our
point accross.
DZorro,
Icarus
03-12-2004, 02:35 AM
I blame the
parents.
Also... um... the schools.
And the government too.
Got a cliche I can borrow?
Steve
DrSmellThis
03-12-2004, 02:41 AM
Making concessions
isn\'t the point. We just need a policy of integrity with the Muslim world (e.g., Palestine/Israel) to take the
wind out of the sails of those who reason and are somewhere short of extreme. Fuc_k what terrorists want or don\'t
want. With that integrity in place, we can rest assured we have minimized the controllable, semi-reasoned violence,
and should \"then\" turn to visciously exterminating those idiots who intend and try to do us in: \"Maybe I\'m
accidentally conceding to you \"alpha idiots\" on this point, but you sure ain\'t gonna be around to enjoy it
long.\" We don\'t even need to hate them to kill them. We can just think pragmatically about it.
For Bush
it\'s either black or white: badass/pussy, enemy/friend. He and countless others like him, don\'t get the third
way. This is literally small thinking.
When you\'re powerful, when you\'re big daddy, you have the power to
get away with being \"good\". I say sit down with Bin Laden and all of \'em, with the purpose of understanding
everything about their side and achieving great communication both ways on it, regardless of the possibility of
agreement. Then we say that \"this part is a legit point, and BECAUSE we\'re badasses w are going to give you
this at the same time that we\'re exterminating you when you don\'t respond to the sheer niceness of it. It\'s
not FOR you, after all; it\'s for the whole big world out there.\" This emphatically is NOT a pussy approach. It
is being the big daddy in my book. It\'s not concessions vs. not. It\'s HOW we do whatever mix of either/both
our integrity demands we do.
We can be strong and alpha without losing our freedom to do the right thing, in
other words. If we lose that freedom for fear of being pussies, we are even more enslaved to terrorists, and are
just kidding ourselves into believing we are \"alpha.\"
We needn\'t be so pessimistic about living on a
planet with Muslims! I mean, their saints and scriptures have dreadful things in them, but if you want nasty unjust
violence, read your own Bible for chrissakes; including the books of Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy. Christians
can read repulsive things in the letters of Paul. Scriptures of every religion, unfortunately, have things in them
which, when taken literally, would lead some to dreadful acts that typical people would never condone. It is
possible to read scriptures as stories with lessons and metaphors, as do most scholars, but this idea makes
fundamentalists of all stripes very nervous and angry. They can\'t process it to where it\'s OK.
We live in a
\"Jerry Springer world\", full of arrogant idiots incapable of seeing the big picture. It sucks. This is why
violence among consenting apes is necessary for the time being.
But maybe we can ratchet up the
sophistication of our international relations a notch, domesticated apes that we are.
bundyburger
03-12-2004, 02:41 AM
I like Aladdin.
He\'s a good kid. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif
belgareth
03-12-2004, 04:19 AM
DST:
With a few
minor points, I agree completely. Hating muslims for being muslims would make us no different than those who attack
us for being Americans. But once somebody has attacked us, I agree with Exit. Merciless retribution against the
attackers, but only the attackers and not an entire society. I\'d rather live in peace and regard their religion
and skin color as irrelevencies, along with the societal rules within their own culture. We have no right to tell
others how to live their lives no more than they have the right to tell us how to live ours.
Elana
03-12-2004, 04:57 AM
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Hating muslims for being muslims would make us no
different than those who attack us for being Americans. But once somebody has attacked us, I agree with Exit.
Merciless retribution against the attackers, but only the attackers and not an entire society. I\'d rather live in
peace and regard their religion and skin color as irrelevencies, along with the societal rules within their own
culture. We have no right to tell others how to live their lives no more than they have the right to tell us how to
live ours.
<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
Pick me up because I just fainted.
Bel
and Exit agreed on something concerning politics. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif
I completely agree with what you just said too, Bel.
Every word of it.
Elana
03-12-2004, 05:03 AM
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
I like Aladdin. He\'s a good kid.
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif
<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
He is dead. The
extremists blew him up because his magic carpet was too colorful and his movie was shown in American theaters.
belgareth
03-12-2004, 05:10 AM
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Pick me up because I just fainted.
Bel and
Exit agreed on something concerning politics. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif
<hr /></blockquote><font
class=\"post\">
Yeah, well, I\'m having an off day. My medications should kick in soon and I\'ll never make
that mistake again. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
The series of
blasts were not intended to be a series but one huge one.
The 3 trains which exploded were meant to arrive at the
big train station and explode simultaniously inside the station and remember this was during morning rush hour, the
place was packed! This means that hundreds more would have been ie were meant to be killed and injured!
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif
This doesn´t sound much like ETAs style but more like Al
Qaeda but then ETA could have changed their tactics and adapted other methods. ??
But ETA is still not being ruled
out completely either.
I think if it were ETA they´d also be wanting to `claim credit´ somehow, so far they
have not.
As pointed out Spain is involved in Iraq and the atack was caried 3 days before elections take
place.
I personally have doubts that ETA would do this type of attack at this time.
As I said earlier I´m not
that well informed but if they´d wanted to get to the government and put pressure on them for their `cause´ going
after government people or institutions would be more like their usual style would it not? That kind makes more
sense to me anyway, as far as killing people can make sense that is but I´m thinking from ETAs perspective not
mine.
If ETA were responsible for this I bet they´ll loose even more basque supporters, any thoughts on this?
It´s happened before and they ended up becoming the separatist group they are
now.
[url=\"http://uk.news.yahoo.com/040312/325/eod1w.html\"]http://uk.news.yahoo.com/040312/325/eod1w.html[/ur
l]
Elana
03-12-2004, 05:28 AM
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
I think if it were ETA they´d also be wanting to
`claim credit´ somehow, so far they have not.
<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
Yes, they probably
would have.
Elana
03-12-2004, 05:35 AM
Sudan Cries Rape:
Former captives recount the crime of boy rape in
Sudan
By Maria Sliwa
As he began speaking, Majok lowered his small coca-colored eyes and stared
intensely at the ground. It was the summer of 2002 and I had just flown thousands of miles deep into the war zone
of Sudan, the largest country in Africa, to interview former slaves.
Majok, then 12, tightly hugged his
long, bony legs, as we sat on the parched termite-infested ground. His ragged black shorts and ripped oversized
tee-shirt hung loosely on his spindly, dust covered body. He spoke of the way he was repeatedly raped and sodomized
by gangs of government soldiers, as I watched a continuous flow of tears pour down his precious adolescent face.
“They raped me,” Majok cried. “And when I tried to refuse they beat me.”
After he worked all day
taking care of his master’s cattle, Majok said he was often raped at night. He told me that his rapes were very
painful and he would rarely get a full night’s sleep.
He also spoke about the other slave boys he saw who
suffered his same fate. “I saw with my eyes other boys get raped,” Majok said. “He [the master] went to collect the
other boys and took them to that special place. [1] I saw them get raped.”
Yal, another adolescent, had
multiple scars on his arms and legs that he said came from the numerous bamboo beatings he received while in
captivity. He told me he saw three slaves killed and one whose arm was hacked off at the elbow because he tried to
run away. Yal also said he saw other boys raped by his master at his master’s house.
“At the time they
were raped they were crying the whole day,” Yal said. He then told me that he, too, was raped.
Since 1989,
Sudan’s extremist government, which is seated in the North, has been waging war against its diverse populace. The
battle is over land, oil, power and religion, by a government that is made up of some of Africa’s most aggressive
Arab Islamists, says Jesper Strudsholm, Africa correspondent for Politiken.
Animist and Christian black
Africans in Southern Sudan and the Nuba Mountains, have paid a price for refusing to submit to the North. Over 2
million have died as a result of this war, according to the U.S. Committee for Refugees. Often trapped in the fray,
are surviving victims the government soldiers capture as slaves. Human rights and local tribal groups estimate the
number of enslaved ranges from 14,000 to 200,000.
Though thousands still remain enslaved in the North, since
2003, the genocide and slave raiding in South Sudan and the Nuba Mountains has been suspended because of a
ceasefire. Amnesty International, however, reports that the government continues to attack black African Muslims in
Darfur, Western Sudan. According to Sudan expert, Eric Reeves, more than 1,000 people are dying every week in
Darfur because of government attacks, and “the numbers are sure to rise.” Amnesty also reports that surviving
victims have been raped and abducted by government soldiers during these raids. International law recognizes both
slavery and rape in the context of armed conflict as “crimes against humanity.”
As I questioned the former
slaves, village leaders, my translators, and many Sudanese immigrants living in the United States, it became
apparent that the tribal society in which Majok and the other slaves were born has strict taboos about
sex—especially male-to-male sex. I was told that although many villagers are aware that young male slaves are raped
while in captivity, it isn’t discussed because of the cultural prohibitions on all forms of male-to-male
sex—including rape.
In fact, male-to-male sex is considered such an egregious act in South Sudan that if
two males are found guilty of having consensual sex with each other they are killed by a firing squad, according to
Aleu Akechak Jok, an appellate court judge for the South. If a male is found guilty of raping a male or female,
only the perpetrator is shot to death, Jok said.
Jok’s description of Southern Sudan’s punishment for
consensual male-to-male sex is not too different from Sharia law in Northern Sudan, which imposes a death penalty on
those found guilty of homosexuality.
Village leaders told me that male rape victims, who are able to
escape slavery in the North and return to their villages, often consign themselves to a life filled with guilt,
while suffering silently and alone.
“This affects their minds badly,” Nhial Chan Nhial, a chief of one of
the villages in Gogrial County said with anger. “When they return to us, many of these boys have fits of crying,
mental problems, and are unable to marry later on in life.”
I worried about Majok and the other boys I had
interviewed. These boys were all adolescent and pre-adolescent ages. Many of them told me that their violent
experience of rape was their very first introduction to sex.
When captured, Ayiel, 14, said he was forced
to watch the gang-rape of his two sisters and says he too was raped numerous times. He described his experience as
“very painful,” and said he never saw his sisters again after that incident.
Perhaps the most graphic account of
male rape was given by Aleek. \"I watched my master and four Murahaleen [soldiers] violently gang-rape a young
Dinka slave boy,” Aleek said. “The boy was screaming and crying a lot. He was bleeding heavily, as he was raped
repeatedly. I watched his stomach expand with air with each violent penetration. The boy kept screaming. I was very
frightened, and knew I was likely next. Suddenly the boy\'s screams stopped as he went completely unconscious. My
master took him to the hospital. I never saw him again.\"
Many of the boys told me that in order to avoid rape
some of the male slaves tried to escape, but were quickly hunted down by their captors. They said that the
punishment for resisting rape is severe beatings, limb amputation or death.
Mohammed, a Bagarra nomad, who has
helped to free slaves, broke down in tears as he spoke. “What they are doing in the North is against the Koran,” he
explained. “Allah says that no man should be a slave to another man, but all should be a slave to Allah.” Mohammed
said that as a Muslim he was heartbroken the extremists have perverted his religion into a political weapon to
torture and oppress people.
When I arrived in Sudan, Ngong -- one in a group of five former female slaves that
I interviewed -- told me that children were raped while in captivity.
“Yes, I saw with my eyes them raped,
boys and girls,” Ngong said.
Though I knew about the rape of slave girls, I did not know this could also
be happening to boys. I decided to investigate this further when two females from the same group said they had seen
slave boys taken away at night to the “special place” for rape.
I interviewed a total of 15 male slaves, for
one to two hours each. Six of the boys interviewed said they were raped and the majority of these six said they
were eyewitnesses to other boys being raped. Most of these six boys said they were raped numerous times, by more
than one perpetrator. Some of the boys gave the full names and the home towns of the men they said had raped them.
Though five in this group of 15 boys said they were not raped, they did say they were either sexually
harassed or were eyewitnesses to other slave boys being raped. Only four of the 15 boys interviewed said they were
not raped or sexually harassed, and were not eyewitnesses to the rape of other boys. All of the boys said they were
never sexually abused or raped prior to their enslavement.
In 2004, the rape of boy slaves is not unique
to young Sudanese males, as recently exposed in a “CNN Presents” documentary “Easy Prey: Inside the Child Sex
Trade.” Sadly, the ugly arm of slavery reaches far beyond Sudan and shockingly touches every continent except
Antarctica. Slavery expert Kevin Bales of Free the Slaves (FreeTheSlaves.net) says there are approximately 27
million slaves worldwide. To date, however, there has been no comprehensive report on how many male slaves have been
traumatized by rape.
Maria Sliwa, founder of Freedom Now News (FreeWorldNow.com), often lectures on
slavery and has compiled recorded interviews on slave boy rape, which she conducted while in Sudan and is preparing
for publication.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[1]
The “special place” was described to me by former slaves as a clearing in the bush where slaves were usually taken
by their captors for rape.
Elana
03-12-2004, 05:41 AM
The reason I posted the above article is to show how they treat THEIR
OWN PEOPLE. How should these little children APPEASE them to not be the victims of rape and sodamy?
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif
Stuff like that just makes me sick
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gifAs does what´s going on in the Congo
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif
But our society isn´t that much better either. Anyone else been
following the Marc Dutroux case?
Problem is we can´t go to other cultures of other religions and tell them
they´re wrong and stuff when so much sh*t and violence and injustice is happening on our very own turfs!
</font><blockquote><font
class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
The muslim community aren\'t robots who just go doing whatever their book
tells them to.
There are plenty of muslims who do want peace.
<hr /></blockquote><font
class=\"post\">
True. Islam is said to be the fastest growing religion, in the world. We have HUGE communities
in Orange County, and in Michigan. Mosques have \"adopted\" the freeways around Glendale and Pasadena.
That\'s millions of people. Maybe tens of millions. We don\'t have millions of fundie terrorists, in the
U.S.
Just my two cents, but I don\'t think it\'s fair to characterize an entire religion, by the actions of
some fringies.
</font><blockquote><font
class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
I like
Aladdin. He\'s a good kid. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif
<hr /></blockquote><font
class=\"post\">
He is dead. The extremists blew him up because his magic carpet was too colorful and his movie
was shown in American theaters.
<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
Not only that... he may have
been French. Most of the 1001 Nights tales were actually 18th c. French.
That\'s political, Elana.
I\'ve read the Koran (and the Bible,
and the Talmud). It specifically forbids rape.
</font><blockquote><font
class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Sudan Cries Rape:
Former captives recount the crime of boy rape in Sudan
By Maria Sliwa
As he began speaking, Majok lowered his small coca-colored eyes and stared intensely
at the ground. It was the summer of 2002 and I had just flown thousands of miles deep into the war zone of Sudan,
the largest country in Africa, to interview former slaves.
Majok, then 12, tightly hugged his long, bony
legs, as we sat on the parched termite-infested ground. His ragged black shorts and ripped oversized tee-shirt hung
loosely on his spindly, dust covered body. He spoke of the way he was repeatedly raped and sodomized by gangs of
government soldiers, as I watched a continuous flow of tears pour down his precious adolescent face.
“They raped me,” Majok cried. “And when I tried to refuse they beat me.”
After he worked all day taking
care of his master’s cattle, Majok said he was often raped at night. He told me that his rapes were very painful
and he would rarely get a full night’s sleep.
He also spoke about the other slave boys he saw who suffered
his same fate. “I saw with my eyes other boys get raped,” Majok said. “He [the master] went to collect the other
boys and took them to that special place. [1] I saw them get raped.”
Yal, another adolescent, had multiple
scars on his arms and legs that he said came from the numerous bamboo beatings he received while in captivity. He
told me he saw three slaves killed and one whose arm was hacked off at the elbow because he tried to run away. Yal
also said he saw other boys raped by his master at his master’s house.
“At the time they were raped they
were crying the whole day,” Yal said. He then told me that he, too, was raped.
Since 1989, Sudan’s
extremist government, which is seated in the North, has been waging war against its diverse populace. The battle is
over land, oil, power and religion, by a government that is made up of some of Africa’s most aggressive Arab
Islamists, says Jesper Strudsholm, Africa correspondent for Politiken.
Animist and Christian black
Africans in Southern Sudan and the Nuba Mountains, have paid a price for refusing to submit to the North. Over 2
million have died as a result of this war, according to the U.S. Committee for Refugees. Often trapped in the fray,
are surviving victims the government soldiers capture as slaves. Human rights and local tribal groups estimate the
number of enslaved ranges from 14,000 to 200,000.
Though thousands still remain enslaved in the North, since
2003, the genocide and slave raiding in South Sudan and the Nuba Mountains has been suspended because of a
ceasefire. Amnesty International, however, reports that the government continues to attack black African Muslims in
Darfur, Western Sudan. According to Sudan expert, Eric Reeves, more than 1,000 people are dying every week in
Darfur because of government attacks, and “the numbers are sure to rise.” Amnesty also reports that surviving
victims have been raped and abducted by government soldiers during these raids. International law recognizes both
slavery and rape in the context of armed conflict as “crimes against humanity.”
As I questioned the former
slaves, village leaders, my translators, and many Sudanese immigrants living in the United States, it became
apparent that the tribal society in which Majok and the other slaves were born has strict taboos about
sex—especially male-to-male sex. I was told that although many villagers are aware that young male slaves are raped
while in captivity, it isn’t discussed because of the cultural prohibitions on all forms of male-to-male
sex—including rape.
In fact, male-to-male sex is considered such an egregious act in South Sudan that if
two males are found guilty of having consensual sex with each other they are killed by a firing squad, according to
Aleu Akechak Jok, an appellate court judge for the South. If a male is found guilty of raping a male or female,
only the perpetrator is shot to death, Jok said.
Jok’s description of Southern Sudan’s punishment for
consensual male-to-male sex is not too different from Sharia law in Northern Sudan, which imposes a death penalty on
those found guilty of homosexuality.
Village leaders told me that male rape victims, who are able to
escape slavery in the North and return to their villages, often consign themselves to a life filled with guilt,
while suffering silently and alone.
“This affects their minds badly,” Nhial Chan Nhial, a chief of one of
the villages in Gogrial County said with anger. “When they return to us, many of these boys have fits of crying,
mental problems, and are unable to marry later on in life.”
I worried about Majok and the other boys I had
interviewed. These boys were all adolescent and pre-adolescent ages. Many of them told me that their violent
experience of rape was their very first introduction to sex.
When captured, Ayiel, 14, said he was forced
to watch the gang-rape of his two sisters and says he too was raped numerous times. He described his experience as
“very painful,” and said he never saw his sisters again after that incident.
Perhaps the most graphic account of
male rape was given by Aleek. \"I watched my master and four Murahaleen [soldiers] violently gang-rape a young
Dinka slave boy,” Aleek said. “The boy was screaming and crying a lot. He was bleeding heavily, as he was raped
repeatedly. I watched his stomach expand with air with each violent penetration. The boy kept screaming. I was very
frightened, and knew I was likely next. Suddenly the boy\'s screams stopped as he went completely unconscious. My
master took him to the hospital. I never saw him again.\"
Many of the boys told me that in order to avoid rape
some of the male slaves tried to escape, but were quickly hunted down by their captors. They said that the
punishment for resisting rape is severe beatings, limb amputation or death.
Mohammed, a Bagarra nomad, who has
helped to free slaves, broke down in tears as he spoke. “What they are doing in the North is against the Koran,” he
explained. “Allah says that no man should be a slave to another man, but all should be a slave to Allah.” Mohammed
said that as a Muslim he was heartbroken the extremists have perverted his religion into a political weapon to
torture and oppress people.
When I arrived in Sudan, Ngong -- one in a group of five former female slaves that
I interviewed -- told me that children were raped while in captivity.
“Yes, I saw with my eyes them raped,
boys and girls,” Ngong said.
Though I knew about the rape of slave girls, I did not know this could also
be happening to boys. I decided to investigate this further when two females from the same group said they had seen
slave boys taken away at night to the “special place” for rape.
I interviewed a total of 15 male slaves, for
one to two hours each. Six of the boys interviewed said they were raped and the majority of these six said they
were eyewitnesses to other boys being raped. Most of these six boys said they were raped numerous times, by more
than one perpetrator. Some of the boys gave the full names and the home towns of the men they said had raped them.
Though five in this group of 15 boys said they were not raped, they did say they were either sexually
harassed or were eyewitnesses to other slave boys being raped. Only four of the 15 boys interviewed said they were
not raped or sexually harassed, and were not eyewitnesses to the rape of other boys. All of the boys said they were
never sexually abused or raped prior to their enslavement.
In 2004, the rape of boy slaves is not unique
to young Sudanese males, as recently exposed in a “CNN Presents” documentary “Easy Prey: Inside the Child Sex
Trade.” Sadly, the ugly arm of slavery reaches far beyond Sudan and shockingly touches every continent except
Antarctica. Slavery expert Kevin Bales of Free the Slaves (FreeTheSlaves.net) says there are approximately 27
million slaves worldwide. To date, however, there has been no comprehensive report on how many male slaves have been
traumatized by rape.
Maria Sliwa, founder of Freedom Now News (FreeWorldNow.com), often lectures on
slavery and has compiled recorded interviews on slave boy rape, which she conducted while in Sudan and is preparing
for publication.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[1]
The “special place” was described to me by former slaves as a clearing in the bush where slaves were usually taken
by their captors for rape.
<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
It´s not the religion
itself that´s bad. It´s what people do to abuse it - in the name of ----- . Christians are also guilty of the same
things, think of what women had to go through in our society. Women didn´t have rights for a very long time. And I
don´t mean to be sexist but responsible in practically all cases were and are men.....
EXIT63
03-12-2004, 07:13 AM
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
</font><blockquote><font
class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Pick me up because I just fainted.
Bel and Exit agreed on something
concerning politics. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif
<hr /></blockquote><font
class=\"post\">
Yeah, well, I\'m having an off day. My medications should kick in soon and I\'ll never make
that mistake again. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
<hr /></blockquote><font
class=\"post\">
Exit clutches his chest
<cough><choke><sputter>
MY PILLS!!! MY
PILLS!!! WHERE ARE MY PILLS!?!?
Yeah Doc, let\'s have a sit down with osama and friends. Maybe with the
right aromatherapy, they might come around.
They are very patient. Eventually we will lose. Not this year. Not
in ten years. But eventually. Remember, this stuff has been going for centuries. And they are very
patient.
And do you know why we\'ll lose?
Because Americans don\'t have the stomach for it. As soon
as people start dying. The bleeding hearts start crying. And the terrorists laugh at our weakness.
Do you know
what they understand? They understand the sword. They are willing to die for their cause. Are we?
Read some
history. Appeasement does not work and it never will. Prime minister Chamberlain appeased Hitler and proclaimed
\"Peace in our time\". It wasn\'t long after the German death machine rolled over Poland. And we all know what
happened after that. It didn\'t work then....and it ain\'t gonna work now.
You know what horrible crime was
committed by those commuters in Spain? The same crime committed by Americans on September eleventh.
They got
up in the morning...And they went to work.
Elana
03-12-2004, 07:23 AM
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
That\'s political, Elana.
I\'ve read the Koran (and the Bible, and the Talmud). It specifically forbids
rape.
<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
My comments have zero to do with the Koran. I am talking
about what is going on with Islamic extremists in our world today. They rape and kill their own people yet some say
we should appease them? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
Elana
03-12-2004, 07:25 AM
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/
2050014.stm (\"http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/2050014.stm\")
Elana
03-12-2004, 07:26 AM
A little paragraph for
those that don\'t wish to read the whole thing
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr
/>
The bill\'s original draft states that those who renounce their faith should be put to death, and that
unmarried women who become pregnant - regardless of rape - should be whipped or stoned to death.
<hr
/></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
EXIT63
03-12-2004, 07:29 AM
Sounds reasonable.
Elana
03-12-2004, 07:31 AM
http://www.geocities.com/inquisitive79/rape.html (\"http://www.geocities.com/inquisitive79/rape.html\")
Yes, that\'s horrible.
But, in the Koran, men and women are equally culpable in cases of adultery/fornication. I agree that that is not how
Sharia law is being APPLIED in some countries. But.... that\'s not what the holy book prescribes. Also, the
punishment is not stoning (per the book) it\'s divorce or \"confinement in houses.\"
What I\'m saying is,
that there are cultural superimpositions that \"reinterpret\" their prophet\'s teachings. Like Pakistan, Saudi
Arabia, and the Sudan. Unlike Lebanon, Syria and (urban) Egypt.
One of my friends is an anthropologist with UCLA
and USC. She gets sent to WCD, a few times a year, to educate the CIA in Islamic and Arab (not necessarily the same
thing) culture.
I learned a lot from her. Also, from the writings of feminist Islamic scholar (I forget her
first name) Mehrnissi.
I agree completely that criminals need punishment. Rape is a human rights crime, as is
any form of terrorism.
However, villifying any religion, especially becuse of cultural superimposition that is
NOT found in the law of the religion doesn\'t seem productive, to me.
BTW-- Folks, remember that the original
Muslim prophet, Muhammad, was married to a Christian (Maryam) and a Jew (Reyhana) as well as a few Muslims. This was
to encourage peace among the Abrahamics.
He was also somewhat feminist-- His favorite wife, Aisha, was a general
and a judge. His first wife (only wife, while she lived) was his employer.
Later on, things get distorted by
culture, and worse, by politics. It\'s happens to a lot of religions. You get old guys with political agendas
re-interpreting what their holy books say.
BTW-- I\'m not Muslim. I have no religion, at all.I just don\'t
care for stereotyping of any kind. I wouldn\'t like the old Shylock stereotypes about Jews, or the Appalachian
fundie stereotypes about Christians.
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr
/>
[url=\"http://www.geocities.com/inquisitive79/rape.html\"]http://www.geocities.com/inquisitive79/rape.html[/ur
l]
<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
</font><blockquote><font
class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
It´s not the religion itself that´s bad. It´s what people do to abuse it -
in the name of ----- . Christians are also guilty of the same things, think of what women had to go through in our
society. Women didn´t have rights for a very long time. And I don´t mean to be sexist but responsible in
practically all cases were and are men.....
<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
Exactly!
</font><blockquote><font
class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
A little paragraph for those that don\'t wish to read the whole thing
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
The bill\'s original draft states that those who
renounce their faith should be put to death, and that unmarried women who become pregnant - regardless of rape -
should be whipped or stoned to death.
<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
<hr
/></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
And, that\'s JUST the problem..... these governments or cultures need to
return to Sharia law.... as per the Koran. What they are doing is in VIOLATION of the Koran.
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
That\'s political, Elana.
I\'ve read the
Koran (and the Bible, and the Talmud). It specifically forbids rape.
<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
My comments have zero to do with the Koran. I am talking about what is going on with Islamic extremists in our
world today. They rape and kill their own people yet some say we should appease them?
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
REAL Muslims
follow the Koran, though.
I think we agree that extremists of ANY stripe need to be put down, if they are
committing crimes. Period.
Oh, and rape? Take off the equipment.
I also think we need to be careful of our
American foreign policy. We FUNDED a passel of these folks, including the Taliban, Saddam, and varieties of Al
Qaida. We have sometimes played both ends against the middle, in order to keep certain regions unstable. It\'s
about control of natural resources.
I pisses me off, seriously, that we put these folks into power (or, at least
give them the means to do damage), and then have to go to war. or take some other difficult action, to try to undo
the damage.
Elana
03-12-2004, 10:10 AM
I have not read the Koran, and I don\'t even attempt to quote from it. This is not about religion or
what the Koran says. I am talking about what is actually happening. Not what should happen or how things should be
interpreted. Everything I am talking about are things that have happened or are happening. I do not put down the
Islamic religion. I have nothing against peace loving Muslims. I am talking about a specific group of people that
are VERY dangerous and are enormous in numbers.
</font><blockquote><font
class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr
/>
[url=\"http://www.geocities.com/inquisitive79/rape.html\"]http://www.geocities.com/inquisitive79/rape.html[/ur
l]
<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
Boggle /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
I have not read the Koran, and I
don\'t even attempt to quote from it. This is not about religion or what the Koran says. I am talking about what
is actually happening. Not what should happen or how things should be interpreted. Everything I am talking about are
things that have happened or are happening. I do not put down the Islamic religion. I have nothing against peace
loving Muslims. I am talking about a specific group of people that are VERY dangerous and are enormous in numbers.
<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
Then we agree perfectly.
Elana
03-12-2004, 11:48 AM
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
</font><blockquote><font
class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
I have not read the Koran, and I don\'t even attempt to quote from it. This
is not about religion or what the Koran says. I am talking about what is actually happening. Not what should happen
or how things should be interpreted. Everything I am talking about are things that have happened or are happening. I
do not put down the Islamic religion. I have nothing against peace loving Muslims. I am talking about a specific
group of people that are VERY dangerous and are enormous in numbers.
<hr /></blockquote><font
class=\"post\">
Then we agree perfectly.
<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
Now let\'s go
get a Chocolate Martini /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
</font><blockquote><font
class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
I have not
read the Koran, and I don\'t even attempt to quote from it. This is not about religion or what the Koran says. I
am talking about what is actually happening. Not what should happen or how things should be interpreted. Everything
I am talking about are things that have happened or are happening. I do not put down the Islamic religion. I have
nothing against peace loving Muslims. I am talking about a specific group of people that are VERY dangerous and are
enormous in numbers.
<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
Then we agree perfectly.
<hr
/></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
Now let\'s go get a Chocolate Martini
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
You\'re ON,
gorgeous! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
tallmacky
03-12-2004, 12:27 PM
The End! (\"http://www.triflux.com/mc/be/p-bears4.jpg\")
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
Elana
03-12-2004, 12:28 PM
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif
tallmacky
03-12-2004, 12:33 PM
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif
<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
I know, the
sad thing is acting like a Care Bear (\"http://www.triflux.com/mc/be/p-bears6.jpg\") does not help, Hamas
and the rest of muslim extremist still kill and HURT POOR CARE BEARS...being nice is not the way I guess? I wish it
was the end. poor dead Care Bears. sigh /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
</font><blockquote><font
class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif
<hr
/></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
I know, the sad thing is acting like a
Care Bear (\"http://www.triflux.com/mc/be/p-bears6.jpg\") does not help, Hamas and the rest of muslim
extremist still kill and HURT POOR CARE BEARS...being nice is not the way I guess? I wish it was the end. poor dead
Care Bears. sigh /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif
<hr /></blockquote><font
class=\"post\">
Care bears are people, too.
DrSmellThis
03-12-2004, 01:24 PM
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
The series of blasts were not intended to be a
series but one huge one.
The 3 trains which exploded were meant to arrive at the big train station and explode
simultaniously inside the station and remember this was during morning rush hour, the place was packed! This means
that hundreds more would have been ie were meant to be killed and injured!
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif
This doesn´t sound much like ETAs style but more like Al
Qaeda but then ETA could have changed their tactics and adapted other methods. ??
But ETA is still not being ruled
out completely either.
I think if it were ETA they´d also be wanting to `claim credit´ somehow, so far they
have not.
As pointed out Spain is involved in Iraq and the atack was caried 3 days before elections take
place.
I personally have doubts that ETA would do this type of attack at this time.
As I said earlier I´m not
that well informed but if they´d wanted to get to the government and put pressure on them for their `cause´ going
after government people or institutions would be more like their usual style would it not? That kind makes more
sense to me anyway, as far as killing people can make sense that is but I´m thinking from ETAs perspective not
mine.
If ETA were responsible for this I bet they´ll loose even more basque supporters, any thoughts on this?
It´s happened before and they ended up becoming the separatist group they are
now.
[url=\"http://uk.news.yahoo.com/040312/325/eod1w.html\"]http://uk.news.yahoo.com/040312/325/eod1w.html[/ur
l]
<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">This is Al Quaeda\'s MO, with the coordinated, huge
attacks.
DrSmellThis
03-12-2004, 02:16 PM
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Yeah Doc, let\'s have a sit down with osama and
friends. Maybe with the right aromatherapy, they might come around.
They are very patient. Eventually we
will lose. Not this year. Not in ten years. But eventually. Remember, this stuff has been going for centuries.
And they are very patient.
And do you know why we\'ll lose?
Because Americans don\'t have
the stomach for it. As soon as people start dying. The bleeding hearts start crying. And the terrorists laugh at
our weakness.
Do you know what they understand? They understand the sword. They are willing to die for
their cause. Are we?
Read some history. Appeasement does not work and it never will. Prime minister
Chamberlain appeased Hitler and proclaimed \"Peace in our time\". It wasn\'t long after the German death
machine rolled over Poland. And we all know what happened after that. It didn\'t work then....and it ain\'t
gonna work now.
<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
At best, you have read me in a superficial,
stereotypical way. That\'s dissapointing from a fellow forum member. People with something to say don\'t have to
resort to painting someone\'s argument from a distance as some charicature (e.g., the aromatherapy mock) to make a
point. Because you shied away (Awwww! I can mock too, if you want to play that) from the actual points, you came
away with the \"appeasement\" concept even though I made it clear I wasn\'t talking about that. You have
unwittingly supported my point about too much black/white thinking, in fact, by demonstrating it yourself. We all
really need to start thinking and acting in a more sophisticated manner to solve this, and not limit ourselves to
the polar opposites of \"cro-magnon/pussy\"! When someone wants to enter into dialogue instead of comic book
rhetoric, I\'d be happy to respond in kind.
That \"don\'t have the stomach for it\" stuff is Bin
Laden\'s argument. So far he was wrong, and I don\'t know if even he believes it any more. Notice the bombs went
off in Spain, (I\'m not saying that\'s better) and not here. Every time we get attacked, a country or three gets
leveled, to put it simply. And we sure as hell won\'t get any more peaceful in response to any further attacks, at
this point. The world somehow senses this, I think. War is built into our culture very sturdily, thank you very
much. We do war extremely well when we get around to it. We still have to work very hard at peace. But if you want
to roll over and predict defeat, I won\'t stand in your way. Just remember, we\'ve been working at the freedom
thing for centuries now, too, since before we were an official country, and this work ain\'t about to end.
Americans are quite tenacious as well -- as tenacious as anyone in the Middle East. And when our backs are against
the wall, no one -- no one -- is more hugely violent and viscious. Hiroshima and Nagasaki, anyone? How about
the civil war? That was one hell of an ugly, close to home battle for freedom\'s sake, fought by our
great-grandparents. Since then we\'ve had seven wars, depending on how you count. We even do guerrila warfare very
well, at this point. Our Viet Nam soldiers had no trouble being viscious, even though half of them saw no point in
being there. Don\'t f_uck with us! Don\'t do it!! Extreme, large scale destruction of yourselves and everyone
you just might be linked with (e.g., 100,000 or so Iraquis) will certainly be the result.
Complexity
needs to be met with complexity, however! Moreover, the complexity has to reflect a simple, integrous, long term
vision and understanding. We need a leader with some huge balls, and a huge mind to go along with it. Dammit!
belgareth
03-12-2004, 02:36 PM
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
We need a leader with some huge balls, and a huge
mind to go along with it. Dammit!
<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
Unfortunately, we
don\'t have one and none of the candidates appear any better.
DrSmellThis
03-12-2004, 02:54 PM
A mind is a
terrible thing. -- Dan Quayle
belgareth
03-12-2004, 03:14 PM
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
A mind is a terrible thing. -- Dan Quayle
<hr
/></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
I recently purchased the book \"The Stupidest Things Said By
Politicians\" It\'s great for anything from a mild chuckle to a belly laugh. The actual quote is: \"The mind is
a terrible thing to lose. What a waste it is to lose ones mind-or not to have a mind. How true that is.\" Said
during a speech at a United Negro College Fund affair.
tallmacky
03-12-2004, 03:15 PM
http://www.xmission.com/~mwalker/DQ/ (\"http://www.xmission.com/~mwalker/DQ/\")
For you
quotaholics. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif
bivonic
03-12-2004, 03:16 PM
I
have not read the whole thread so please excuse me if this has already been mentioned, not sure if anyone knew this
but the day those bombings took place was exactly 911 days after September 11, 2001 - sounds like Al Queda to me.
franki
03-12-2004, 03:18 PM
913, but it is pretty close.. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif
</font><blockquote><font
class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
A mind is a terrible thing. -- Dan Quayle
<hr /></blockquote><font
class=\"post\">
Didn\'t he he also say, \"The importance of bondage between parents and children cannot be
overestimated?\"
belgareth
03-12-2004, 03:43 PM
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
</font><blockquote><font
class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
A mind is a terrible thing. -- Dan Quayle
<hr /></blockquote><font
class=\"post\">
Didn\'t he he also say, \"The importance of bondage between parents and children cannot
be overestimated?\"
<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
Yup. He probably has more quotes than
anybody else in that book. He also said that pollution isn\'t the problem. It\'s the impurities in the air and
water.
</font><blockquote><font
class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr
/>
http://www.xmission.com/~mwalker/DQ/ (\"http://www.xmission.com/~mwalker/DQ/\")
For you
quotaholics. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif
<hr /></blockquote><font
class=\"post\">
I\'ll see your Quaylisms, and raise you a couple
Bushisms.<g>
http://politicalhumor.about.
com/library/blbushisms.htm (\"http://politicalhumor.about.com/library/blbushisms.htm\")
</font><blockquote><font
class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
A mind is a terrible thing. -- Dan Quayle
<hr /></blockquote><font
class=\"post\">
Can I get you a potatoe Dr.?
Just before I started to
do some serious study on the reasons why Al Quida was doing their thing I was watching some news footage on TV
showing the typical mob scene of worked up Taliban in Afghanistan. Lots of dirt and dust and scruffy looking men
with brown stained fingers (no TP in Afghanistan) and towels wrapped around their heads. You\'ve all see the same
images. The ranting and chanting and very dark, nearly black spots where eyes should be on the faces of men with
hearts filled to the brim with hate and anger and murder. I had an epiphany while watching the footage play out. It
came to me in a flash. None of these people have ever had a puppy. Osama never had a puppy. For sure Yasser never
had one. They don\'t have many pets in those regions. We have our pets in the west. Pets are big in the far east
too but not in the middle east. About this time the bombing started in Afghanistan and it came to me that smart
bombs weren\'t the answer. Puppies were. Instead of dropping bombs we should have been dropping puppies. Golden
Retriever puppies to be specific. Nothing cuter or sweeter or more heart warming than a Golden Retriever puppy. It
would change everything. For the boy puppies we get little goggles and leather helmets. Little pink Burkas for the
girl puppies. Puppies don\'t weigh much so the parachutes wouldn\'t have to be very big and you can stuff a lot
of puppies inside a B-52. Even knowing what I know now about the reasons why Osama and his boys are doing what they
do I think this idea has merit.
EXIT63
03-12-2004, 03:59 PM
Guiliani in \'08
Mtnjim
03-12-2004, 04:05 PM
\"Golden Retriever
puppies to be specific. Nothing cuter or sweeter or more heart warming than a Golden Retriever puppy.\"
In that
part of the world:
Puppy, the other white meat\"
Elana
03-12-2004, 04:06 PM
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Guiliani in \'08
<hr /></blockquote><font
class=\"post\">
I love that man! Nothing would stop me from voting for him.
Elana
03-12-2004, 04:08 PM
Leave the poor little
puppies out of this. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif
EXIT63
03-12-2004, 04:16 PM
Problem is those
taliban scumbags would shove sharp sticks up their butts and cook your sweet little puppies.
mmmmmmmmmm hot dogs.
Hmmm sharp sticks up their butts. Remind me to include that in the Exit Doctrine.
Icarus
03-12-2004, 05:57 PM
My silence. Your
Silence.My silence. Your Silence.My silence. Your Silence.My silence. Your Silence.My silence. Your Silence.My
silence. Your Silence.My silence. Your Silence.My silence. Your Silence.My silence. Your Silence.My silence.
Your Silence.My silence. Your Silence.My silence. Your Silence.My silence. Your Silence.My silence. Your
Silence.My silence. Your Silence.My silence. Your Silence.My silence. Your Silence.My silence. Your Silence.My
silence. Your Silence.My silence. Your Silence.My silence. Your Silence.My silence. Your Silence.My silence.
Your Silence.My silence. Your Silence.My silence. Your Silence.My silence. Your Silence.
bundyburger
03-12-2004, 10:51 PM
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
My silence. Your Silence.My silence. Your
Silence.My silence. Your Silence.My silence. Your Silence.My silence. Your Silence.My silence. Your Silence.My
silence. Your Silence.My silence. Your Silence.My silence. Your Silence.My silence. Your Silence.My silence. Your
Silence.My silence. Your Silence.My silence. Your Silence.My silence. Your Silence.My silence. Your Silence.My
silence. Your Silence.My silence. Your Silence.My silence. Your Silence.My silence. Your Silence.My silence. Your
Silence.My silence. Your Silence.My silence. Your Silence.My silence. Your Silence.My silence. Your Silence.My
silence. Your Silence.My silence. Your Silence.
<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
Steve. You
have NO idea how that fukks with my obsessive compulsive dissorder.
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif
Could you please edit that post and add a space after every
\"Your silence.\" to even it up?? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
...and while your at it
change the s in all \"silence\"s to a lower-case one. Would much appreciate it.
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif
franki
03-13-2004, 02:19 AM
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
913, but it is pretty close..
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif
<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
i goofed... 912
or 911 days depending on how you count..
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
I have not read the whole thread so please excuse
me if this has already been mentioned, not sure if anyone knew this but the day those bombings took place was
exactly 911 days after September 11, 2001 - sounds like Al Queda to me.
<hr /></blockquote><font
class=\"post\"> yes bivonic! gulp /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif
911 - were they trying
to be witty or something /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif
DrSmellThis
03-13-2004, 03:15 PM
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Just before I started to do some serious study on
the reasons why Al Quida was doing their thing I was watching some news footage on TV showing the typical mob scene
of worked up Taliban in Afghanistan. Lots of dirt and dust and scruffy looking men with brown stained fingers (no TP
in Afghanistan) and towels wrapped around their heads. You\'ve all see the same images. The ranting and chanting
and very dark, nearly black spots where eyes should be on the faces of men with hearts filled to the brim with hate
and anger and murder. I had an epiphany while watching the footage play out. It came to me in a flash. None of these
people have ever had a puppy. Osama never had a puppy. For sure Yasser never had one. They don\'t have many pets
in those regions. We have our pets in the west. Pets are big in the far east too but not in the middle east. About
this time the bombing started in Afghanistan and it came to me that smart bombs weren\'t the answer. Puppies were.
Instead of dropping bombs we should have been dropping puppies. Golden Retriever puppies to be specific. Nothing
cuter or sweeter or more heart warming than a Golden Retriever puppy. It would change everything. For the boy
puppies we get little goggles and leather helmets. Little pink Burkas for the girl puppies. Puppies don\'t weigh
much so the parachutes wouldn\'t have to be very big and you can stuff a lot of puppies inside a B-52. Even
knowing what I know now about the reasons why Osama and his boys are doing what they do I think this idea has merit.
<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
The answer is a contingent of authentic Stankian diplomats!
I don\'t think you
could out-STANK those guys Dr. Especially thems with those yellow-brown fingers. That\'s a whole different level
of STANK.
tallmacky
03-13-2004, 10:15 PM
I agree with
Ash.
Take it from the T-mack, The worst, crapiest smelling guy at love-scent. I didn\'t take a shower for 2
weeks and I am one perverted nasty guy, and you know what? I don\'t even come close to smelling as bad as many of
those Muslim Extremist, and I don\'t just mean behavior wise, I mean actual smell...These guys make it seem like I
smell as good as E after a warm hot oil bath, where as I smelled so foul that everytime I walked by someone they
would cough.....
If I could only smell that bad. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif
DrSmellThis
03-14-2004, 01:14 AM
Once again I have
been shown the way by the great ash and Tallmacky! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif
Elana
03-14-2004, 12:26 PM
BTW...another bombing
in Israel today. Another innocent 11 people (so far) for them to add to their list.
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif
EXIT63
03-14-2004, 12:38 PM
Let\'s talk about it.
Elana
03-14-2004, 12:45 PM
It\'s pointless
because it is never ending. We go about our daily lives...they kill us.
EXIT63
03-14-2004, 12:47 PM
How bout we sing around
the campfire.
Kuum by ahhh my lord.
Kuum by ahhh.
Surely that will stop them.
Elana
03-14-2004, 12:50 PM
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
How bout we sing around the campfire.
Kuum by
ahhh my lord.
Kuum by ahhh.
Surely that will stop them.
<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
That
and the fruit basket idea might work
EXIT63
03-14-2004, 12:52 PM
Yeah...now yer thinkin.
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
tallmacky
03-14-2004, 12:54 PM
You guys are
forgetting the Care Bears!
Oh yeah they even kill poor Care Bears....
nooooooo not bj.
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
franki
03-14-2004, 01:09 PM
It looks like the
bombing already has big effects in Spain. According to the polls at the moment, the socialist opposition won the
elections today in Spain. But, it\'s still very close. One of the main reasons may have been that they were always
against a spanish engagement in Iraq
It´s been finally made official this
morning that it was the bastard alquis. You guys know what that means though right? London´s next !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif
CptKipling
03-14-2004, 03:07 PM
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
</font><blockquote><font
class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Simply
put, there is only one way to handle somebody who attacks you and appeasement is not it.
<hr
/></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
Well, muslims and muslim extremists are two different parties. I agree
that it isa dangerous message to send if we just concede everything and give them what they want, but I am just
saying give them enough to where the anger isn\'t so great.
I\'m not willing to be a sacrificial lamb in
the ideal of don\'t bargain with terrorists.
<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
bjf
Your
replies to this thread really got my blood up! I\'ll try to be kind. You need to stop listening to NPR. Try
reading some books on the subject. Start with \"Tea with Terrorists\". Elana can give you some more titles. Stop
listening to left wing appeasement propaganda and find out who your enemy is and why he wants YOU dead. Here\'s
the long and the short of it. Do you believe in allah? Did you bend your knee to him in submission today? If you
didn\'t and aren\'t willing to then osama, taking his instructions from the Koran and the Hadif, wants you dead.
Below is a post I made to another Forum a few months back.
islam means \"submission\". Contrary to the swill
being feed to us by the media and our politicians, islam is NOT a religion of Peace. There are two books that are
the \"Hand books\" of islam. The koran, which most have heard of, and the Hadif, which most have not heard of.
Neither books have any reference to \"Peace\" in them at all. Both books expound the teachings of mohamed the
\"profit\", who, by all accounts, was a rather creepy little deformed white guy with a goitered neck who hated
Jews. According to these books, islam means \"submission, by sword, to the will of allah !! Submit to Allah or
die!!!!
According to mohamed and the \"books\" of islam there are two worlds! Dar el islam and Dar el Harb. Dar
el islam is the world belonging to islam and allah. Dar el Harb is everything else. According to allah, mohamed and
his books, everything which is not islam, i.e.. Dar el Harb, must die. Submit to allah and islam or die is the only
message in the books of islam. The Hadif is the handbook on how to make the world of Dar el Harb submit to allah and
islam. The Hadif is the book that osama bin laden and the \"True\" believers read and adhere to. The Hadif is
about 600 pages long and gets into great detail about how to convert, by the sword, Dar el Harb into Dar el islam.
Lie, cheat, steal and murder are it\'s main means of conversion.
The message of allah, mohamed and islam is
simple. You are either part of islam or you must die!!! It doesn\'t matter if you\'re a Christian or a Jew or a
Buddhist or an Aitheist; an American, a Frenchmen or if you\'re Chinese; if you\'re not islam and refuse to
\"submit\" to islam then you need to die. This is according to allah\'s \"Will\". The world of islam breaks
down into two groups. Good islamists and bad islamists. The bad islamist don\'t read and adhere to the book. The
good islamist do read and adhere to the book. It\'s kinda like nazi Germany. You had good nazi\'s and bad
nazi\'s. The good nazi\'s bought into the lies and took part in the murders. The bad nazi\'s were swept along
keeping their mouths shut lest they get sent to the camps as well.
I am not optimistic about the future. As long
as we have this \"head up the ass, politically correct\" , \"Can\'t we all just get along\" attitude toward
islam, we\'re F*CKED!!!!!
In the words of a rather infamous Brother. \"The time has come for each and every
one of you to decide. Brothers and Sisters, take 5 seconds to decide weather you want to be part of the problem or
part of the solution. 5 seconds is all you need.\"
Read some books bjf and take your 5 seconds!
Peace out
Bro.
Macky, can you name that Brother?
[and some other posts]
<hr /></blockquote><font
class=\"post\">
You people really scare me sometimes.
Elana
03-14-2004, 03:11 PM
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
You people really scare me sometimes.
<hr
/></blockquote><font class=\"post\"> Only one or two of the posters scare me. The others are a comfort.
Elana
03-14-2004, 04:31 PM
</font><blockquote><font
class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
London´s next !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
<hr /></blockquote><font
class=\"post\">
Yeah, nobody is safe. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif
EXIT63
03-14-2004, 04:47 PM
Yeah, we\'d better go run and
hide or the big tough terrorists might hurt us. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif
So I scare you sometimes
Doc.?
It is written in the Koran that ALL JEWS, CHRISTIANS AND INFIDELS MUST BE CONVERTED TO ISLAM OR THEY MUST
DIE! When the Taliban took over Afghanistan they killed ALL THE JEWS, ALL THE CHRISTIANS AND ALL THE INFIDELS. The
Taliban were being very good Islamists. They followed the teachings and instructions of Mohamed, the Koran and the
Hadif to the letter. The only Christians and Jews and Infidels in Afghanistan today are members of the Coalition
army. The rest were murdered by the Taliban. Most had their throats cut. That\'s the preferred method as
instructed in the Hadif.
A lot of non-Islamic people world wide don\'t have any problems with the killing of
Jews and Christians. The thinking is that the world will be a better place without them and their bothersome little
religions. Maybe that\'s your thinking too Dr. Here\'s the problem. If you\'re not a Jew or a Christian or a
Muslim then by default you\'re an Infidel. That means they want to cut your throat too Dr., or blow you up in a
train station. But I\'m the one that scares you?
Spains new PM
Rodriguez has announced that he wants to withdraw spanish troops from Iraq by the beginning of this summer.
upsidedown
03-15-2004, 10:11 AM
Spain\'s voters have now just sent a message to terrorists. That message is that terrorism works.
DrSmellThis
03-15-2004, 11:26 AM
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
So I scare you sometimes Doc.?
It is written in
the Koran that ALL JEWS, CHRISTIANS AND INFIDELS MUST BE CONVERTED TO ISLAM OR THEY MUST DIE! When the Taliban took
over Afghanistan they killed ALL THE JEWS, ALL THE CHRISTIANS AND ALL THE INFIDELS. The Taliban were being very good
Islamists. They followed the teachings and instructions of Mohamed, the Koran and the Hadif to the letter. The only
Christians and Jews and Infidels in Afghanistan today are members of the Coalition army. The rest were murdered by
the Taliban. Most had their throats cut. That\'s the preferred method as instructed in the Hadif.
A lot of
non-Islamic people world wide don\'t have any problems with the killing of Jews and Christians. The thinking is
that the world will be a better place without them and their bothersome little religions. Maybe that\'s your
thinking too Dr. Here\'s the problem. If you\'re not a Jew or a Christian or a Muslim then by default you\'re
an Infidel. That means they want to cut your throat too Dr., or blow you up in a train station. But I\'m the one
that scares you?
<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
That was Kipling who was scared by you.
Elana
03-15-2004, 11:41 AM
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Spain\'s voters have now just sent a message to
terrorists. That message is that terrorism works.
<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
Yep....I fear
England is next. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif
But yes...it appears that terrorism does work.
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif
That reaction was SHOCKING! That would NEVER have happened in the
USA! It would only have made us more determined to wipe these F$%kers off the face of the earth!
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Spain\'s voters have now just sent a message to
terrorists. That message is that terrorism works.
<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
I disagree. It
was kind of time for a change anyway I reckon and the spanish want their troops back in any case. Aznar wouldn´t
have agreed to this.
I still have reservations about who did it really, as trange as it sounds.
hehehe I
hear Berlusconi is shaking in his boots a little /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
franki
03-15-2004, 12:21 PM
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
That would NEVER have happened in the USA! It
would only have made us more determined to wipe these F$%kers off the face of the earth!
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif
<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
I wouldn\'t
be so sure about that..
Sorry
Doc!!!
I have no idea how I managed to get confused although E\'s 32D\'s have been on my mind recently.
My
sincere apologies!
Things
don´t look too great for Bush and unless he pulls off a real coup, like catching osama´s a** he might be out too.
upsidedown
03-15-2004, 01:15 PM
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
I disagree. It was kind of time for a change
anyway I reckon and the spanish want their troops back in any case. Aznar wouldn´t have agreed to this.
<hr
/></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
Well, from what I hear, according to the polls, the current government
was well on it\'s way to an easy victory just before the bombings, and then suddenly the voting turned around on
election day.
But, even if it was just time for a change, the terrorists are going to interpret this as an
indication that their \"terror\" worked and accomplished what they wanted. They will now be more emboldened to
continue killing innocent people thinking they will eventually get what they want.
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
</font><blockquote><font
class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Spain\'s voters have now just sent a message to terrorists. That message
is that terrorism works.
<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
Yep....I fear England is next.
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif
But yes...it appears that terrorism does work.
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif
That reaction was SHOCKING! That would NEVER have happened in the
USA! It would only have made us more determined to wipe these F$%kers off the face of the earth!
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif
<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
Thst is so
true, but the rest of the world does not understand us because that is how we think. You push us and we push back.
You push us twice and we kick your a$$. The rest of the world (except Israel) gets pushed a second time and the run
away and cry for mommy........especially the French. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
MADRID
(Reuters) - Spanish police are hunting Moroccan Muslim militants suspected of links to bombs that killed 201 people
on Madrid trains and propelled the opposition Socialists into power at a general election.
Local media said on
Tuesday police were looking for five fugitive Moroccans, part of a group of eight main Moroccan suspects.
Click to enlarge photo
Three are already in custody in connection with Spain\'s worst attack and the first
suspected al Qaeda-linked strike in the West since the September 11 strikes on the United States.
But
investigators cautioned against drawing any conclusions from the evidence gathered so far.
Click to enlarge
photo
The investigation \"is in its infancy. We have a long way to go,\" one law enforcement official
said.
Spanish police, experienced with Basque separatist attacks, are considered expert at bomb analysis but have
sought foreign help for what has become a complex international investigation.
Police from across Europe are to
convene in Madrid in coming days to share information on the probe, and Spain and Morocco already have exchanged
investigative teams.
Meanwhile U.S. investigators are assisting Spain with fingerprint and background checks on
suspects.
One of the three detained Moroccans has been named as Jamal Zougam. Police sources told Reuters bomb
survivors had identified him from photographs as having been at the crime scene but said they were treating witness
reports cautiously.
Legal sources said the bombers are believed to have left the country. However, police sources
said no international arrest warrants had been issued.
Investigators were also examining the remains of one of
the dead from Thursday\'s train blasts as a potential bomber.
The Moroccan line of investigation emerged at the
weekend when police arrested five suspects -- the three Moroccans and two Indians -- in their first
breakthrough.
El Pais newspaper said Zougam had connections with some of those arrested for last May\'s
bombings in Casablanca that killed 45 people, including 12 suicide bombers.
Friends described Zougam as a
\"modern Muslim\" who liked to wear good clothes. \"He\'s the kind of guy who would walk around in a Lacoste
T-shirt,\" Abdul, 28, who said he was friends with Zougam and had known him about seven years, told
Reuters.
Abdul works just a block away from the mobile telephone shop run by Zougam in Madrid\'s multi-racial
Lavapies district.
MISSING DYNAMITE
Police sources said they have determined the dynamite used to make the
bombs -- Goma 2 Eco, a gelatine explosive manufactured by the Spanish firm Union Espanola de Explosivos (UEE) -- was
not stolen in Spain nor went missing here.
Investigators have asked neighbouring countries, including Morocco, to
press their licensed distributors to see if they can pinpoint where the explosive came from.
An estimated 100 to
150 kg (220 to 330 pounds) were used to make the 13 bombs: ten that went off, two that were blown up in controlled
explosions, and one did not go off.
The unexploded bomb has been crucial to the case. About 12 kg of Goma 2 Eco
were packed into a sports bag and surrounded with screws and nails. The detonator, also made by UEE, was connected
to a mobile phone alarm.
CASABLANCA-MADRID LINKS
As well as the Moroccans, police were also looking for
Islamists of other nationalities who may have played a part in the attack, media and sources said. They are
suspected of being loosely related to Osama bin Laden\'s al Qaeda.
According to the investigation into al Qaeda
activities in Spain led by Spanish High Court Judge Baltasar Garzon, a 2001 search of Zougam\'s home in Madrid
turned up a propaganda videotape that showed Sala Eddin Benyaich operating as an Islamist fighter in Chechnya.
Benyaich later was arrested for a suspected connection to the Casablanca bombing.
Among the 1,668 wounded, 219
were still in hospital, eight fighting for their lives, health officials said. A 45-year-old woman died on Tuesday,
becoming the 201st victim.
Thursday\'s bombs, which authorities initially blamed on armed Basque separatists
ETA, revived popular anger at Prime Minister Jose Maria Aznar\'s support for the US-led Iraq war, helping incoming
Socialist Prime Minister Jose Luis Rodriguez Zapatero to a surprise victory.
CptKipling
03-16-2004, 12:55 PM
Damn strait terrorism works.
You know why? Because there are still bigots in society that claim to have the
simple answer, but are in fact as bad as the \"monsters\" they are slating. I\'m sure the avid followers of this
topic know the propaganda the terrorist feed potential recruits (most of the Arab world), if you don\'t, then here
it is. They say that Americans and their Allies are great oppressors, selfishly claiming what they want for
themselves, leaving whatever natives that happen to get in the way bleeding in ditches. Any more ideas about what
your \"damn the torpedoes, crush the bastards,\" attitude does? If you haven’t got it yet, it simply fuels this
propaganda.
Ash, I don\'t know you so I\'m not judging you as a person, but your \"knowledge\" of this
subject is surreal. I know many Muslims (I\'m sure you don\'t), some of whom are friends of mine, and I strongly
object to some of the race oriented talk being banded around here. The way some of you (not just Ash) are talking, a
few things seem apparent: a) you are racist, b) you are in favour of exactly what you are accusing the terrorists
of, spreading powerful negative propaganda about a race(!), with the aim of inciting fear and anger.
You claim
to know of the teachings of Islam, but did you know...
There are two Jihads in every Muslims life. First, the
\"battle\" with oneself to lead a good and honest life. The second, to fight if oppressed. Mohamed gave these to
his people, and I think they are pretty reasonable. Nothing you \"moral experts\" can disagree with either, I
doubt.
How many of you have actually met a Muslim? How many of you actually know enough to pass the judgment you
all seem so eager to give. Have you ever been to a Muslim country? Morocco? Egypt? No? They are the nicest, most
friendly people I have had the privilege to meet. What some people appear not to have realised is that no matter
where you go, you will always find idiots who oppose the status quo, and try to alter it in an idiotic way. It\'s
all a product of greed and power lust, and the lack of a proper education. Even in the west you get people stupid
enough to think violence is the way to solve problems (sometimes it\'s the desperate act of people trying to gain
attention from the government), and there is almost always a correlation to poor edumacation. But it vital to
recognise that on the social spectrum from chaos to utopia, you are always going to get trouble makers.
America
and its Allies do themselves no favours in the Middle East by fulfilling all of the angry locals\' expectations.
You can\'t play god; you can\'t just wade in with \"help\" and expectations and alien principles. The simple
matter is that the culture and society is different, and you can\'t impose \"modern\" society’s ideals onto them
in such a way. To some degree you have to let them duke it out for themselves, the most the west should be doing is
providing education and basic healthcare (barring a world encompassing disaster).
A little knowledge is a
dangerous thing. The reason some of you are saying the things you are is out of fear. But this is exactly what the
terrorists want, but it is very wrong to react by lashing out. Unlike Hitler, terrorism has no face, or nothing
tangible to attack. Even the terrorists have no country which they occupy, so there is nothing to invade. So you
have no armies to conquer, no nations to topple, but just a couple of angry people willing to kill a lot of people
without remorse. So what can we do? Well, you can try to hunt down these people, but not only does this prove to be
easier said than done, it doesn’t solve the underlying problem, people are disagreeing with the status quo. The
answer then, is to listen to the real people, the ones who are suffering that is, and try to fix it that way
(empower the people with education, again). That is the intelligent thing to do, and also the right thing to do. We
are dealing with human beings here.
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Damn strait terrorism works.
You know why?
Because there are still bigots in society that claim to have the simple answer, but are in fact as bad as the
\"monsters\" they are slating. I\'m sure the avid followers of this topic know the propaganda the terrorist feed
potential recruits (most of the Arab world), if you don\'t, then here it is. They say that Americans and their
Allies are great oppressors, selfishly claiming what they want for themselves, leaving whatever natives that happen
to get in the way bleeding in ditches. Any more ideas about what your \"damn the torpedoes, crush the bastards,\"
attitude does? If you haven’t got it yet, it simply fuels this propaganda.
Ash, I don\'t know you so I\'m not
judging you as a person, but your \"knowledge\" of this subject is surreal. I know many Muslims (I\'m sure you
don\'t), some of whom are friends of mine, and I strongly object to some of the race oriented talk being banded
around here. The way some of you (not just Ash) are talking, a few things seem apparent: a) you are racist, b) you
are in favour of exactly what you are accusing the terrorists of, spreading powerful negative propaganda about a
race(!), with the aim of inciting fear and anger.
You claim to know of the teachings of Islam, but did you
know...
There are two Jihads in every Muslims life. First, the \"battle\" with oneself to lead a good and
honest life. The second, to fight if oppressed. Mohamed gave these to his people, and I think they are pretty
reasonable. Nothing you \"moral experts\" can disagree with either, I doubt.
How many of you have actually met
a Muslim? How many of you actually know enough to pass the judgment you all seem so eager to give. Have you ever
been to a Muslim country? Morocco? Egypt? No? They are the nicest, most friendly people I have had the privilege to
meet. What some people appear not to have realised is that no matter where you go, you will always find idiots who
oppose the status quo, and try to alter it in an idiotic way. It\'s all a product of greed and power lust, and the
lack of a proper education. Even in the west you get people stupid enough to think violence is the way to solve
problems (sometimes it\'s the desperate act of people trying to gain attention from the government), and there is
almost always a correlation to poor edumacation. But it vital to recognise that on the social spectrum from chaos to
utopia, you are always going to get trouble makers.
America and its Allies do themselves no favours in the Middle
East by fulfilling all of the angry locals\' expectations. You can\'t play god; you can\'t just wade in with
\"help\" and expectations and alien principles. The simple matter is that the culture and society is different,
and you can\'t impose \"modern\" society’s ideals onto them in such a way. To some degree you have to let them
duke it out for themselves, the most the west should be doing is providing education and basic healthcare (barring a
world encompassing disaster).
A little knowledge is a dangerous thing. The reason some of you are saying the
things you are is out of fear. But this is exactly what the terrorists want, but it is very wrong to react by
lashing out. Unlike Hitler, terrorism has no face, or nothing tangible to attack. Even the terrorists have no
country which they occupy, so there is nothing to invade. So you have no armies to conquer, no nations to topple,
but just a couple of angry people willing to kill a lot of people without remorse. So what can we do? Well, you can
try to hunt down these people, but not only does this prove to be easier said than done, it doesn’t solve the
underlying problem, people are disagreeing with the status quo. The answer then, is to listen to the real people,
the ones who are suffering that is, and try to fix it that way (empower the people with education, again). That is
the intelligent thing to do, and also the right thing to do. We are dealing with human beings here.
<hr
/></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
Wow! You actually believe this. I agree there are alot of very good
people in Egypt, Morrocco, etc, but if you really believe that Islam is not out to conquer the world the you will be
a causualty just like the rest of us. If you do not think that the Muslims want the destruction of Israel then you
are naive. They have tried twice to kick the Israelis into the ocean and they will try again. This is real history
not something I am making up. So, explain why your peace loving Muslims are constantly fighting with Israel inspite
of concessions by Israel. You can not explain this because it is counter to what you have explained above.
I am
not a racist and I am not a bigot, but I know that Isalm is out to remove anything that gets in the way of the
Muslims ruling the world.
Why do they hate the USA and the Western allies? Because we are the reason they have
not been able to remove the Jews from the face of the Earth.
Elana
03-16-2004, 01:34 PM
If
you were referring to me as one of the racists, then I will come clean....It is no secret. I hate Islamic
extremists. Have I ever met a Muslim? Sure, many of them. I met hundreds both here and in the Middle East including
Egypt and Jordan where I have spent a lot of time. Do I hate all Muslims? Of course not. Are there peace loving
Muslims? Tons of them, but here is the problem. They give themselves a bad rap when they refuse to speak out against
the extremists. How many did we see crying out to the public after 9/11 screaming to their own to stop the violence?
While many spoke against what happened to us, they still blamed us. It was still always something that we did
wrong. I can differentiate between good and evil, but if people don\'t speak out against monsters doing things in
the name of their religion then the rest of the world is going to put them all into the same category. That\'s a
shame but that\'s what happens when you don\'t speak out.
EXIT63
03-16-2004, 02:02 PM
Are
you callin me a racist?
Elana
03-16-2004, 02:16 PM
are
you talking to me? ARE YOU TALKING TO ME??? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
EXIT63
03-16-2004, 02:29 PM
ACHTUNG Heir Kipling! Get bak unt to zee mineshaft unt verke!!
SCHNELL!!!
SCHNELL!!!
is what they\'d be
sayin ta you if it wasn\'t for US.
belgareth
03-16-2004, 03:05 PM
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Damn strait terrorism works.
You know why?
Because there are still bigots in society that claim to have the simple answer, but are in fact as bad as the
\"monsters\" they are slating. I\'m sure the avid followers of this topic know the propaganda the terrorist feed
potential recruits (most of the Arab world), if you don\'t, then here it is. They say that Americans and their
Allies are great oppressors, selfishly claiming what they want for themselves, leaving whatever natives that happen
to get in the way bleeding in ditches. Any more ideas about what your \"damn the torpedoes, crush the bastards,\"
attitude does? If you haven?t got it yet, it simply fuels this propaganda.
Ash, I don\'t know you so I\'m not
judging you as a person, but your \"knowledge\" of this subject is surreal. I know many Muslims (I\'m sure you
don\'t), some of whom are friends of mine, and I strongly object to some of the race oriented talk being banded
around here. The way some of you (not just Ash) are talking, a few things seem apparent: a) you are racist, b) you
are in favour of exactly what you are accusing the terrorists of, spreading powerful negative propaganda about a
race(!), with the aim of inciting fear and anger.
You claim to know of the teachings of Islam, but did you
know...
There are two Jihads in every Muslims life. First, the \"battle\" with oneself to lead a good and
honest life. The second, to fight if oppressed. Mohamed gave these to his people, and I think they are pretty
reasonable. Nothing you \"moral experts\" can disagree with either, I doubt.
How many of you have actually met
a Muslim? How many of you actually know enough to pass the judgment you all seem so eager to give. Have you ever
been to a Muslim country? Morocco? Egypt? No? They are the nicest, most friendly people I have had the privilege to
meet. What some people appear not to have realised is that no matter where you go, you will always find idiots who
oppose the status quo, and try to alter it in an idiotic way. It\'s all a product of greed and power lust, and the
lack of a proper education. Even in the west you get people stupid enough to think violence is the way to solve
problems (sometimes it\'s the desperate act of people trying to gain attention from the government), and there is
almost always a correlation to poor edumacation. But it vital to recognise that on the social spectrum from chaos to
utopia, you are always going to get trouble makers.
America and its Allies do themselves no favours in the Middle
East by fulfilling all of the angry locals\' expectations. You can\'t play god; you can\'t just wade in with
\"help\" and expectations and alien principles. The simple matter is that the culture and society is different,
and you can\'t impose \"modern\" society?s ideals onto them in such a way. To some degree you have to let them
duke it out for themselves, the most the west should be doing is providing education and basic healthcare (barring a
world encompassing disaster).
A little knowledge is a dangerous thing. The reason some of you are saying the
things you are is out of fear. But this is exactly what the terrorists want, but it is very wrong to react by
lashing out. Unlike Hitler, terrorism has no face, or nothing tangible to attack. Even the terrorists have no
country which they occupy, so there is nothing to invade. So you have no armies to conquer, no nations to topple,
but just a couple of angry people willing to kill a lot of people without remorse. So what can we do? Well, you can
try to hunt down these people, but not only does this prove to be easier said than done, it doesn?t solve the
underlying problem, people are disagreeing with the status quo. The answer then, is to listen to the real people,
the ones who are suffering that is, and try to fix it that way (empower the people with education, again). That is
the intelligent thing to do, and also the right thing to do. We are dealing with human beings here.
<hr
/></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
Well said but I disagree on a couple points. You cannot allow anybody who
attacks you to get away with it. Eliminating the leadership through capturing and putting on trial when possible or
killing if there is no other alternative works. It sends a message to those who would attack us that it\'s
unhealthy for the leadership, the ones sending others out to do their dirty work. Bin Laden doesn\'t build the
bombs or carry them to where they can kill innocent people. He directs others to do it. So long as leaders like him
are free, they will continue to send others out to kill people.
You can call people racist but what are you
really accomplishing with that? It\'s a label you\'ve applied to people that you haven\'t taken the time to
fully understand. Using the word to describe some of the people who\'ve spoken out here makees you no different
than them or the relegous zealots who cry out for our blood. Try learning to understand those at home too. Every
perspective has some validity to it, no matter how much you dislike their words.
Elana
03-16-2004, 03:08 PM
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
You cannot allow anybody who attacks you to get
away with it. Eliminating the leadership through capturing and putting on trial when possible or killing if there is
no other alternative works. It sends a message to those who would attack us that it\'s unhealthy for the
leadership, the ones sending others out to do their dirty work. Bin Laden doesn\'t build the bombs or carry them
to where they can kill innocent people. He directs others to do it. So long as leaders like him are free, they will
continue to send others out to kill people.
You can call people racist but what are you really accomplishing with
that? It\'s a label you\'ve applied to people that you haven\'t taken the time to fully understand. Using the
word to describe some of the people who\'ve spoken out here makees you no different than them or the relegous
zealots who cry out for our blood. Try learning to understand those at home too. Every perspective has some validity
to it, no matter how much you dislike their words.
<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\"> Bel...someone
needs to pick up that medication for you. What is happening?
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Very good post!
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
DrSmellThis
03-16-2004, 03:33 PM
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Wow! You actually believe this. I agree there are
alot of very good people in Egypt, Morrocco, etc, but if you really believe that Islam is not out to conquer the
world the you will be a causualty just like the rest of us. If you do not think that the Muslims want the
destruction of Israel then you are naive. They have tried twice to kick the Israelis into the ocean and they will
try again. This is real history not something I am making up. So, explain why your peace loving Muslims are
constantly fighting with Israel inspite of concessions by Israel. You can not explain this because it is counter to
what you have explained above.
I am not a racist and I am not a bigot, but I know that Isalm is out to remove
anything that gets in the way of the Muslims ruling the world.
Why do they hate the USA and the Western
allies? Because we are the reason they have not been able to remove the Jews from the face of the Earth.
<hr
/></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
(Note: This post is meant to be read along with my other long one,
above, which would address many of the expected objections to this one.)
Wow. You may not be racist, but you
sure could use a little introspection and thought. Look at what you just wrote! You continue to unabashedly
lump all Muslims into one category and entity of an enemy bent on taking over the world and exterminating all
dissenters. Because absolute religious fundamentalism has failed, and must fail; this turns out to be a false
picture. As I noted in my above post, it would be foolish to look at some shocking phrase in the Koran, Bible (which
is just as bad, like it or not. I gave some biblical references above.) or any other religious text as determining
most of the actions of most people in that religion. This also applies to hearing some fundamentalists quote such a
phrase. Almost no one actively involved in negotiating a treaty between Israel and Palestine wants to deny
Israel\'s right to exist. Recent proposals were bad for other reasons.
If your picture was accurate, of
course, the logical answer would be to exterminate all Muslims! But that is just the logical version of your
position, which I suspect is really emotional at base. If it weren\'t for your blessed lack of logic, in fact, you
would be thinking in a Hitlerian manner, which would be racist.
As I said in my large post above, black and
white thinking is exactly what we don\'t need if we want to solve things. It is the cause of all our
problems, on the process level. This is as true as facts can get. Most people just haven\'t learned to think in
processes, so they don\'t recognize this fact. But it is true.
Where is the positive solution in \"kill or
be killed?\"
What is the answer? I really believe I know the general structure of it, but I have too much of
a checkered past present and future of sex, drugs, and rawk to get elected president!
The United states
needs to move from being a bully to the world (No, we don\'t just peacibly mind our own business all the
time, especially our corporations; as much as I wish we did) to being a parent to the world.
This
will be a mature position of even greater strength and leadership! Under this scenario, good parenting
techniques can and should be modified to apply to troublesome countries/entities, with much profit! I can
guarantee this approach would work, because I know the psychology behind it, as a child psychologist. The logic
transfers perfectly, even down to highly specific diplomacy techniques. It comes mostly from behavior management
theory, but a more humanized version.
The best way to get your kid to behave is not always kicking the
[censored] out of him, even if violence is his problem. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif But
consistent consequences, communication, problem solving, understanding, and strong discipline are nevertheless key.
Good parenting techniques work with all children, regardless of how disturbed they are. I\'ve worked with
the worst of them. Again, we just need a more sophisticated approach.
\"Kill THEM ALL or be killed by
THEM!\" may be entertaining for American kids watching their typical Saturday AM cartoons, but it makes for
very, very, very bad foreign policy, where bullies rule. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
Unlike the Koran which
has no context, there is much in the Bible that can, and has over the centuries, been taken \"out of context\".
But even if you bent and twisted the Bible inside out you couldn\'t come up with anything within it\'s covers
that orders Jews or Christians to go out and conquer the world by murdering Muslims and everyone else that isn\'t
Christian or Jew. It isn\'t there! Not so with the Koran! The teachings of the Koran are crystal clear and there
for anyone to read. The Jihad referenced in the Koran by Mohamed is the Jihad of world domination by the sword.
Period! End of story! Pick up a copy and see for yourself. It is the Jihad of the Koran and the Hadif that Osama and
who knows how many others have declared on Dar el Harb. If you have not submitted to the will of Allah, YOU are Dar
el Harb and you must die! This IS the message of the Koran and the Hadif! Period! End of story! Read the book and
see for yourself and don\'t bother bringing in the Bible as a part of the subject again. Jews and Christians
didn\'t plant the bombs or fly the planes on 911.
NOBODY disputes the fact that it\'s NOT ALL Muslims
that are causing the problems. Don\'t use that *you\'re a bigot\" argument again It\'s crap! I too have
Muslim friends. Some of them even have puppies! I honestly don\'t know where the disconnect is within the Muslim
community. I suspect it is similar to the Christian and Jewish community in that most Christians and Jews have never
read the Torah or the Bible. Most Muslims have never read the Koran. If they did they\'d probably not be Muslims
anymore. One would hope not at least as there is nothing in the Koran except murder and death. There isn\'t even a
guarantee of Paradise in the Koran but you can at least assure yourself a place in line if you kill a bunch of
Infidels. That sound like a PEACEFUL religion to you? Islam as a Peaceful religion is nothing more than NPR spoonfed
asswipe.
Like it or not, WAR was declared on us centuries ago by Mohamed and is now being carried out by his
very loyal followers. As bad, or as good as the United States has been to the rest of the world, WAR was not
declared on us as a nation. WAR was declared on anybody that is not a part of Islam! YOU DON\'T BELIEVE THAT? Do
a Google and pull up Osama\'s letter to the world released by him just after 911. You know, actually reading what
the people that are trying to kill us have to say about why they\'re trying to kill us is very eye opening. The
Palestinian Charter and the Charter of Sadam\'s Iraq are other interesting reads. That\'s all I urge anybody to
do. Get as far away from the left wing and right wing propaganda as you can. Stay away from NPR and Dan Rather and
the other \"Pretty Boys\". They can\'t tell you what\'s really going on cuz what\'s really going on is far
too scarry and way too politically incorrect! I have lot\'s more to write but I feel the need to go out and play
with my puppy.
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
</font><blockquote><font
class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Wow! You actually believe this. I agree there are alot of very good people
in Egypt, Morrocco, etc, but if you really believe that Islam is not out to conquer the world the you will be a
causualty just like the rest of us. If you do not think that the Muslims want the destruction of Israel then you are
naive. They have tried twice to kick the Israelis into the ocean and they will try again. This is real history not
something I am making up. So, explain why your peace loving Muslims are constantly fighting with Israel inspite of
concessions by Israel. You can not explain this because it is counter to what you have explained above.
I am not
a racist and I am not a bigot, but I know that Isalm is out to remove anything that gets in the way of the Muslims
ruling the world.
Why do they hate the USA and the Western allies? Because we are the reason they have not been
able to remove the Jews from the face of the Earth.
<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
(Note: This
post is meant to be read along with my other long one, above, which would address many of the expected objections to
this one.)
Wow. You may not be racist, but you sure could use a little introspection and thought. Look at what
you just wrote! You continue to unabashedly lump all Muslims into one category and entity of an enemy bent on
taking over the world and exterminating all dissenters. Because absolute religious fundamentalism has failed, and
must fail; this turns out to be a false picture. As I noted in my above post, it would be foolish to look at some
shocking phrase in the Koran, Bible (which is just as bad, like it or not. I gave some biblical references above.)
or any other religious text as determining most of the actions of most people in that religion. This also applies to
hearing some fundamentalists quote such a phrase. Almost no one actively involved in negotiating a treaty between
Israel and Palestine wants to deny Israel\'s right to exist. Recent proposals were bad for other reasons.
If
your picture was accurate, of course, the logical answer would be to exterminate all Muslims! But that is just the
logical version of your position, which I suspect is really emotional at base. If it weren\'t for your blessed
lack of logic, in fact, you would be thinking in a Hitlerian manner, which would be racist.
As I said in my large
post above, black and white thinking is exactly what we don\'t need if we want to solve things. It is the
cause of all our problems, on the process level. This is as true as facts can get. Most people just haven\'t
learned to think in processes, so they don\'t recognize this fact. But it is true.
Where is the positive
solution in \"kill or be killed?\"
What is the answer? I really believe I know the general structure of it, but
I have too much of a checkered past present and future of sex, drugs, and rawk to get elected president!
The
United states needs to move from being a bully to the world (No, we don\'t just peacibly mind our own
business all the time, especially our corporations; as much as I wish we did) to being a parent to the world.
This will be a mature position of even greater strength and leadership! Under this scenario, good parenting
techniques can and should be modified to apply to troublesome countries/entities, with much profit! I can
guarantee this approach would work, because I know the psychology behind it, as a child psychologist. The logic
transfers perfectly, even down to highly specific diplomacy techniques. It comes mostly from behavior management
theory, but a more humanized version.
The best way to get your kid to behave is not always kicking the [censored]
out of him, even if violence is his problem. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif But consistent
consequences, communication, problem solving, understanding, and strong discipline are nevertheless key. Good
parenting techniques work with all children, regardless of how disturbed they are. I\'ve worked with the
worst of them. Again, we just need a more sophisticated approach.
\"Kill THEM ALL or be killed by
THEM!\" may be entertaining for American kids watching their typical Saturday AM cartoons, but it makes for
very, very, very bad foreign policy, where bullies rule. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
OK, I will give this much. When I refer to Muslims I am
referring to extremists that are Chicken Sh!t cowards who kill innocent women and children and run like cock roaches
to hide when the heat is on (except for the stupid idiots that strap explosives to themselves and blow everyone up
with themselves).
Do you really think that Yasser Arafat does not want the removal of Israel from the face of the
Earth? He is part of the \"peace\" process and it is his people that keep the violence going. It is not the Jews
who are attacking the Arabs, but vice versa. The Jews are just continually defending themselves.
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Almost no one actively involved in negotiating a
treaty between Israel and Palestine wants to deny Israel\'s right to exist. Recent proposals were bad for other
reasons.
<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
An amazingly ignorant and uninformed statement!
Elana
03-16-2004, 06:18 PM
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
</font><blockquote><font
class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Almost no one actively involved in negotiating a treaty between Israel and
Palestine wants to deny Israel\'s right to exist. Recent proposals were bad for other reasons.
<hr
/></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
An amazingly ignorant and uninformed statement!
<hr
/></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
I didn\'t even see this posted. Who was the original poster? With all
due respect it is pure crap.
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Where is the positive solution in \"kill or be
killed?\"
<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
* spoken with a Valley Girl voice* Well,
let\'s see. If you kill somebody that is going to kill you before they kill you... I\'m sorry, what was the
question again?
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
but I have too much of a checkered past present and
future of sex, drugs, and rawk to get elected president!
<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
That
didn\'t stop Clinton or Bush. Go for it dude.
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
The best way to get your kid to behave is not
always kicking the [censored] out of him, even if violence is his problem.
<hr /></blockquote><font
class=\"post\">
Especially as a child psychologist I would hope that you would never strike, in any way,
let alone kick the*...* out of child. Anger problem or not. The child psychology angel is an interesting one. Maybe
these \"very bad\" people would respond to a puppy after all.
thingscouldwork
03-17-2004, 03:39 AM
Some of the most ignorant voices I heard in a long time, but also some excellent posts!
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Wow! You actually believe this. I agree there are
alot of very good people in Egypt, Morrocco, etc, but if you really believe that Islam is not out to conquer the
world the you will be a causualty just like the rest of us. If you do not think that the Muslims want the
destruction of Israel then you are naive.
<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
A proper Musim interprets
his \"bible\" /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif pretty much like we do, when it comes to peace and
leaving other people alone... Now I\'m sick and tired of so-called \"conservative-Americans\" to shout stuff
like \"It\'s them or us\" or \"they are out for world domination\"... That is lies!! Get a grip people! Listen
to Michael Moore (not all his stuff, but some) and THINK about the WORLD and not you only...
Ahhh, and who tries
to dominate the world?? Let\'s see a few countries the US bombed over the last years (in order of
bombing):
China, Korea, China, Guatemala, Indonesia, Cuba, Guatemala, Congo, Peru, Laos, Vietnam, Cambodia,
Guatemala, Genada, Lebanon, El Salvador, Nicaragua, Libya, Iran, Panam, Iraq, Somalia, Sudan, Afghanistan,
Jugoslavia, Afghanistan, Iraq... My finger actually hurt now! And you want to tell me \"it\'s all for the
best\"?? I laugh at you in pitty...
Now, believe me: I love the american people! I have relatives there that
fled during WW2 and continued to make friends there over my 6 or so visits so far... And I\'m 22... So please
don\'t tell me I just hate americans, as the opposite is the case. Let\'s just say you where unlucky in the
choosing of your leaders some of the time...
And for the leader as of now, you didn\'t even choose him
yourself anymore, so it\'s not even your fault... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
I would love
to talk to some people from the US! Plz PM me with you opinions or post them here!!
DrSmellThis
03-17-2004, 04:41 AM
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
</font><blockquote><font
class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
The best way to get your kid to behave is not always kicking the [censored]
out of him, even if violence is his problem.
<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
Especially as
a child psychologist I would hope that you would never strike, in any way, let alone kick the*...* out of child.
Anger problem or not. The child psychology angel is an interesting one. Maybe these \"very bad\" people would
respond to a puppy after all.
<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
I can\'t believe you didn\'t
pick up the sarcasm on one hand, and yet responded with sarcastic disinformation yourself.
DrSmellThis
03-17-2004, 04:57 AM
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
</font><blockquote><font
class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Where is the positive solution in \"kill or be killed?\"
<hr
/></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
* spoken with a Valley Girl voice* Well, let\'s see. If you kill
somebody that is going to kill you before they kill you... I\'m sorry, what was the question again?
<hr
/></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
All you can do is pull this statement out of context?? You are responding
pretty much like an 8 year old here. It is pretty much universally offensive to substitute mocking for thoughtful
conversation during a serious discussion. Why type anything if you have nothing to contribute?
thingscouldwork
03-17-2004, 05:12 AM
Hey Doc:
I think we shouldn\'t even dignify stupit s**t like that with a response... Well I wouldn\'t wanna
waste my time, anyway... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
DrSmellThis
03-17-2004, 05:14 AM
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
</font><blockquote><font
class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Almost no
one actively involved in negotiating a treaty between Israel and Palestine wants to deny Israel\'s right to exist.
Recent proposals were bad for other reasons.
<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
An amazingly
ignorant and uninformed statement!
<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
I didn\'t even see this
posted. Who was the original poster? With all due respect it is pure crap.
<hr /></blockquote><font
class=\"post\">
Anybody can use perjorative labels like \"crap\" and \"ignorant\".
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif I missed the demonstration of fact and reason that was supposed
to accompany your labeling. Which recent peace proposal denies Israel\'s right to exist?
Elana
03-17-2004, 05:25 AM
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Which recent peace proposal denies Israel\'s
right to exist?
<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
DST....Why have the plans not gone through?
None of them? Arafat had the deal of a lifetime and backed out. Why? Why did Arafat back out? What did he ultimately
want? This is an easy one, because this can be backed up with facts....not opinions.
EXIT63
03-17-2004, 05:27 AM
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
A proper Musim interprets his \"bible\" pretty
much like we do, when it comes to peace and leaving other people alone... Now I\'m sick and tired of so-called
\"conservative-Americans\" to shout stuff like \"It\'s them or us\" or \"they are out for world
domination\"... That is lies!! Get a grip people! Listen to Michael Moore (not all his stuff, but some) and THINK
about the WORLD and not you only...
Ahhh, and who tries to dominate the world?? Let\'s see a few countries the
US bombed over the last years (in order of bombing):
China, Korea, China, Guatemala, Indonesia, Cuba, Guatemala,
Congo, Peru, Laos, Vietnam, Cambodia, Guatemala, Genada, Lebanon, El Salvador, Nicaragua, Libya, Iran, Panam, Iraq,
Somalia, Sudan, Afghanistan, Jugoslavia, Afghanistan, Iraq... My finger actually hurt now! And you want to tell me
\"it\'s all for the best\"?? I laugh at you in pitty...
Now, believe me: I love the american people! I have
relatives there that fled during WW2 and continued to make friends there over my 6 or so visits so far... And I\'m
22... So please don\'t tell me I just hate americans, as the opposite is the case. Let\'s just say you where
unlucky in the choosing of your leaders some of the time...
And for the leader as of now, you didn\'t even
choose him yourself anymore, so it\'s not even your fault...
I would love to talk to some people from the US!
Plz PM me with you opinions or post them here!!
<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
Thank you
very much. I will be laughing my ass off all day long at that post.
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif Listen to Michael Moore:)
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gifI love it. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
EXIT63
03-17-2004, 05:35 AM
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
All you can do is pull this statement out of
context?? You are responding pretty much like an 8 year old here. It is pretty much universally offensive to
substitute mocking for thoughtful conversation during a serious discussion. Why type anything if you have nothing to
contribute?
<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
Yeah Doc, You don\'t pull ANYTHING out
of context.
Right, sure you don\'t.
And no one can have any sarcasm except for you.
You belittle
people. You call them ignorant. You call them 8 year olds. You tell them they have nothing to contribute.
Your
a psychologist and you jokingly talk about kicking the sh!t out of childrem.
You should be ashamed of yourself.
Elana
03-17-2004, 05:45 AM
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
</font><blockquote><font
class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Almost no one actively involved in negotiating a
treaty between Israel and Palestine wants to deny Israel\'s right to exist. Recent proposals were bad for other
reasons.
<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
An amazingly ignorant and uninformed statement!
<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
I didn\'t even see this posted. Who was the original poster?
With all due respect it is pure crap.
<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
Anybody can use
perjorative labels like \"crap\" and \"ignorant\". /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif I missed
the demonstration of fact and reason that was supposed to accompany your labeling. Which recent peace proposal
denies Israel\'s right to exist?
<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
1947 The UN voted to
partition \"Palestine\" into a Jewish and Arab State. What happened next? That Arabs rejected it. Why? They
declared holy war.
Not one Arab country will acknowledge the existence of Israel .
Why did Arafat turn down the
offer of a lifetime when King Hussein offered to form a government with him? Why did he turn down the best offer of
peace he could ever have had?
1947, 1967, 1973....all attempts at destroying Israel.
Israel still wants peace.
It will never happen because one side wants to live in Palestine after the destruction of Israel.... Which will
never happen.
DST...please tell me what Arab countries accept Israels right to exisit?
Elana
03-17-2004, 05:55 AM
Can
anyone here find Israel on an Arab map?
No you can\'t. Arab maps do not show Israel.
DrSmellThis
03-17-2004, 06:13 AM
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
OK, I will give this much. When I refer to Muslims
I am referring to extremists that are Chicken Sh!t cowards who kill innocent women and children and run like cock
roaches to hide when the heat is on (except for the stupid idiots that strap explosives to themselves and blow
everyone up with themselves).
Do you really think that Yasser Arafat does not want the removal of Israel from the
face of the Earth? He is part of the \"peace\" process and it is his people that keep the violence going. It is
not the Jews who are attacking the Arabs, but vice versa. The Jews are just continually defending themselves.
<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
Wow, a genuine reply! Thanks!
The \'chicken [censored]
murderers\' should be imprisoned or killed. The element that is to far gone is too far gone. That is a given. No
one here is arguing against this. I think I agree with you here.
I also agree that the Palestinians are more
overtly agressive. But they have a perception that their land is being occupied, right or wrong. So they are
\"supposed\" to be the more violent ones in this scenario, where both sides think they are right. The ones with
the power of occupation always get to wear the white hats, and to appear less violent, regardless of who actually
has the moral high ground. So the neutral logical position is to discount the difference in violence
somewhat.
Also, Jewish rulership defends by retaliatory attacks and preemptive strikes, which raise
\"chicken and egg\" logical questions. People are removed forcibly from their homes or settlements. An aquaintance
of mine, a 22 y.o. college student and peace activist at the U. of Washington, who was sitting in protest at a
Palestinian settlement, was recently run over by an Israeli military bulldozer. It was most emphatically deliberate,
by all accounts. Only the Israeli military denied it. She was a sweet \"do-gooder\" type person trying to advocate
for nonviolence.
Right or wrong, these actions are not neutral on the violence scale.
Yasser is a totally
ineffective, disingenuous ex-leader. He makes empty public statements that his people should stop the terrorist
attacks. The US does not respect him in the slightest, and many in the Arab world even believe he is a pragmatic
hindrance to Palestinian statehood, as far as I can tell. I agree with you that he probably wants Israel to
disappear. But the black and white peace proposals do not say this. Moreover, Arafat will never be part of any peace
settlement, as the international community would not have it. So although he has his loyalists, I think he is no
longer the major player. You have to be recognized by more than your own loyalists. Israel does need to be careful
to keep him from the hero/martyr role, however.
Elana
03-17-2004, 06:20 AM
DST...How
do you suggest Israel respond when their people are the targets of terrorist attcks over and over? Do you not think
that they should plow down the houses of the suicide bombers? Should they not blow up houses that are housing senior
militants? Should they not target Hamas and Islamic Jihad members? How should they respond?
Elana
03-17-2004, 06:39 AM
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
An aquaintance of mine, a 22 y.o. college student
and peace activist at the U. of Washington, who was sitting in protest at a Palestinian settlement, was recently run
over by an Israeli military bulldozer.
<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
We all remember her. You
couldn\'t turn on the news during the time when the Palestinian militants holed themselves up in the Church of
Nativity in Bethlehem and destroyed the place. I heard her crying for those poor militants. I didn\'t shed a tear
when she got herself killed by standing in front of a tank that DID NOT SEE HER! She was warned over and over again
to move from that area. She refused. She got herself killed.
DrSmellThis
03-17-2004, 06:42 AM
Elana, I never said it was wrong for Israel to retaliate. I agree with all those actions you named, until peace is
negotiated. I am talking about where to go from here, and advocating a pragmatic approach, as the negatives of
continued plus accumulated violence eventually outweigh the negatives of compromise for those who are practical,
regardless of culture.
Arafat would continue to sabotage things if he was allowed to. I agree he has had no
reason to refuse all the agreements. But the international community is not going to be saluting him any time soon,
or ever.
The only remotely credible proposals are ones where Israel gets the right to exist, and Palestine gets a
state. We start from there.
Elana
03-17-2004, 06:43 AM
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Elana, I never said it was wrong for Israel to
retaliate. I agree with all those actions you named, until peace is negotiated. I am talking about where to go from
here, and advocating a pragmatic approach, as the negatives of continued plus accumulated violence eventually
outweigh the negatives of compromise for those who are practical, regardless of culture.
Arafat would continue to
sabotage things if he was allowed to. I agree he has had no reason to refuse all the agreements. But the
international community is not going to be saluting him any time soon, or ever.
The only remotely credible
proposals are ones where Israel gets the right to exist, and Palestine gets a state. We start from there.
<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
At least we agree on something
DrSmellThis
03-17-2004, 07:12 AM
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
We all remember her. You couldn\'t turn on the
news during the time when the Palestinian militants holed themselves up in the Church of Nativity in Bethlehem and
destroyed the place. I heard her crying for those poor militants. I didn\'t shed a tear when she got herself
killed by standing in front of a tank that DID NOT SEE HER! She was warned over and over again to move from that
area. She refused. She got herself killed.
<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\"> I did shed a tear. My
information is that the bulldozer (not a tank) did see her, or at least knew she was there, by numerous eye witness
accounts. She was sitting in protest like they do in America, refused to move, and so he ran her down, with a lot of
people screaming right in his ear about the girl for quite some time, begging him to stop. The girl at first thought
he\'d stop, then tried to move when she realized too late he was not going to. I didn\'t get any of this from
the news, but from personal emails from eyewitnesses to our mutual friend, who came to be in tears before the news
even hit the airwaves. That was not appropriate punishment for her \"crying for militants\". I think news accounts
were quite distorted, and based on reports from the Israeli government in this case.
belgareth
03-17-2004, 07:45 AM
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
</font><blockquote><font
class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
We all remember her. You couldn\'t turn on the news during the time when
the Palestinian militants holed themselves up in the Church of Nativity in Bethlehem and destroyed the place. I
heard her crying for those poor militants. I didn\'t shed a tear when she got herself killed by standing in front
of a tank that DID NOT SEE HER! She was warned over and over again to move from that area. She refused. She got
herself killed.
<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\"> I did shed a tear. My information is that the
bulldozer (not a tank) did see her, or at least knew she was there, by numerous eye witness accounts. She was
sitting in protest like they do in America, refused to move, and so he ran her down, with a lot of people screaming
right in his ear about the girl for quite some time, begging him to stop. The girl at first thought he\'d stop,
then tried to move when she realized too late he was not going to. I didn\'t get any of this from the news, but
from personal emails from eyewitnesses to our mutual friend, who came to be in tears before the news even hit the
airwaves. That was not appropriate punishment for her \"crying for militants\". I think news accounts were quite
distorted, and based on reports from the Israeli government in this case.
<hr /></blockquote><font
class=\"post\">
It\'s likely the account you recieved was distorted as well. I remember seeing on the news
and hearing stories about demonstrations I participated in and not even recognizing them from what I had been a part
of. That\'s also why cops don\'t like eye-witnesses, two witnesses rarely agree on the event even though they
stood side by side watching it. You probably know better than me to take such reports with a lot of scepticism.
DrSmellThis
03-17-2004, 08:11 AM
Psychology doesn\'t teach that eyewitness acounts are bad, as they still often the best we have,
particularly when multiple witnesses agree. Sure, my information could be distorted too. But whatever distortions my
information had -- at least it wasn\'t filtered through several layers of government beurocracy and a couple of
corporate news agencies first. It was just personal emails from eyewitnesses. If you were attempting to ascertain
the truth, you\'d start with the witnesses. I watched the news versions later, and saw nothing to change my mind.
Elana
03-17-2004, 08:18 AM
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
I watched the news versions later, and saw nothing
to change my mind.
<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
I saw the footage too. Nothing is changing my
mind either.
DrSmellThis
03-17-2004, 08:49 AM
So
despite all the rage, it sounds like everyone here agrees that Muslim militant extremists, who believe that all
\"infidels\" must die and try to implement this:
1. are the vast minority of those calling themselves
Muslim, whether because they didn\'t read the Koran or for other reasons.
2. can\'t be dealt with except by
physical means such as military operations. We should exterminate them whenever necessary to defend
ourselves.
But what of the other 95%? Are they not also a population to be reconed with? Should we listen to
their concerns as well as those of Israelis and Jewish folk? Or maybe we should listen only to our friends, such as
England. Is Bush\'s \"either you\'re with us or against us\" policy working?
belgareth
03-17-2004, 09:37 AM
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
So despite all the rage, it sounds like everyone
here agrees that Muslim militant extremists, who believe that all \"infidels\" must die and try to implement this:
1. are the vast minority of those calling themselves Muslim, whether because they didn\'t read the Koran or
for other reasons.
2. can\'t be dealt with except by physical means such as military operations. We should
exterminate them whenever necessary to defend ourselves.
But what of the other 95%? Are they not also a
population to be reconed with? Should we listen to their concerns as well as those of Israelis and Jewish folk? Or
maybe we should listen only to our friends, such as England. Is Bush\'s \"either you\'re with us or against
us\" policy working?
<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
I agree with 1&2 completely. Of the
other 95%, my bet is they want to live in peace just like you and I do. We, the United States, has no business
telling any society how to live. We can disagree with their way of life but not demand they live by our rules. that
is, so long as they show us the same respect. Isreal, the Palestinians, the Aluets and every other people have the
right to determine their own course. If we would back out of their internal affairs, we would have a lot more
friends all over the world.
Bush\'s for or against policy is wrong any way you look at it. All that does is
polarize people who would not be involved otherwise. It goes right along with our philosophy that every country is
free to choose their own government so long as it is a democracy.
Talk to any cop or attorney, they\'ll tell
you the same thing I am saying about eye-witnesses. Other than in front of a jury that is poorly qualified to judge
the veracity, they are of little value. It\'s been demonstrated time and again that several witnesses will all
honestly remember an event differently.
Elana
03-17-2004, 11:01 AM
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif At least 27 dead, 40 wounded in explosion at Baghdad hotel,
according to senior U.S. military officials at the scene. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Some of the most ignorant voices I heard in a long
time, but also some excellent posts!
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Wow! You
actually believe this. I agree there are alot of very good people in Egypt, Morrocco, etc, but if you really believe
that Islam is not out to conquer the world the you will be a causualty just like the rest of us. If you do not think
that the Muslims want the destruction of Israel then you are naive.
<hr /></blockquote><font
class=\"post\">
A proper Musim interprets his \"bible\" /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
pretty much like we do, when it comes to peace and leaving other people alone... Now I\'m sick and tired of
so-called \"conservative-Americans\" to shout stuff like \"It\'s them or us\" or \"they are out for world
domination\"... That is lies!! Get a grip people! Listen to Michael Moore (not all his stuff, but some) and THINK
about the WORLD and not you only...
Ahhh, and who tries to dominate the world?? Let\'s see a few countries the
US bombed over the last years (in order of bombing):
China, Korea, China, Guatemala, Indonesia, Cuba, Guatemala,
Congo, Peru, Laos, Vietnam, Cambodia, Guatemala, Genada, Lebanon, El Salvador, Nicaragua, Libya, Iran, Panam, Iraq,
Somalia, Sudan, Afghanistan, Jugoslavia, Afghanistan, Iraq... My finger actually hurt now! And you want to tell me
\"it\'s all for the best\"?? I laugh at you in pitty...
Now, believe me: I love the american people! I have
relatives there that fled during WW2 and continued to make friends there over my 6 or so visits so far... And I\'m
22... So please don\'t tell me I just hate americans, as the opposite is the case. Let\'s just say you where
unlucky in the choosing of your leaders some of the time...
And for the leader as of now, you didn\'t even
choose him yourself anymore, so it\'s not even your fault...
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
I would love to talk to some people from the US! Plz PM me with
you opinions or post them here!!
<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
Please do not equate American
military action against other countries armies to terrorist actions by the Muslims. They are two separate issues.
Can you debate American military actions in the past? Probably and there is most likely a decent arguement on either
side. However, you can not debate cowardly bombings by terrorist (aimed at innocent people, not armies) at all. It
is wrong from any angle or position.
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
</font><blockquote><font
class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
We all remember her. You couldn\'t turn on the news during the time when
the Palestinian militants holed themselves up in the Church of Nativity in Bethlehem and destroyed the place. I
heard her crying for those poor militants. I didn\'t shed a tear when she got herself killed by standing in front
of a tank that DID NOT SEE HER! She was warned over and over again to move from that area. She refused. She got
herself killed.
<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\"> I did shed a tear. My information is that the
bulldozer (not a tank) did see her, or at least knew she was there, by numerous eye witness accounts. She was
sitting in protest like they do in America, refused to move, and so he ran her down, with a lot of people screaming
right in his ear about the girl for quite some time, begging him to stop. The girl at first thought he\'d stop,
then tried to move when she realized too late he was not going to. I didn\'t get any of this from the news, but
from personal emails from eyewitnesses to our mutual friend, who came to be in tears before the news even hit the
airwaves. That was not appropriate punishment for her \"crying for militants\". I think news accounts were quite
distorted, and based on reports from the Israeli government in this case.
<hr /></blockquote><font
class=\"post\">
A tank was coming at her. She was in another country. She refused to move and got run over.
Tragic, but she put herself in a position of compromise and lost. In America the tank would have stopped, but she
was not in America and she should have understood that. Do I applaud her demise? No! Do I defend the Israeli tank?
I was not there and do not know what happened, therefore I can not comment.
CptKipling
03-17-2004, 12:14 PM
Elana
and Exit,
I was not calling you racist; I just hope you (and others) think carefully when trying to find an
\"object\" to aim your blame at. It is not the general population, but a very small fraction, the same fraction of
idiots you would find in any country, with the exception that these people feel that they have the motivation to
kill.
Let\'s take Israel and Palestine as an example. First of all, I understand completely why you feel the
way you do. Secondly, as a neutral, I want both sides to find a happy medium. I have some knowledge of the
situation, but I apologise for any errors.
Without question the bombers are horrific mass murderers, and with
anything I say I do not mean to condone them in any way. Many would say that these people bring the problem on
themselves, but just how nice would the Israeli government be to the Palestinians if they were taken out of the
equation completely? I mean, they don\'t have to give them anything, they were given that land...
And therin
lies the problem. The UK (and whoever else was involved) was wrong to just displace these people in the way they
did. What were they thinking?
I know two Palestinian families who have fled the region. I\'m not exactly sure
of the reasons, so I will make no comments here. For the record, I know 1 boy from each family; the first is the
most mild mannered person you will ever meet, wouldn\'t hurt a fly, the second is just your average guy. Both
condemn the terrorists. The first guy sometimes tells me of things he has heard from friends back home, and while I
take most of it with a pinch of salt (it may be exaggerated), I am shocked by some of it.
I can only think of
two examples at the moment:
Firstly, a woman was in her car with her husband when she went into labour. She was
miles from a Palestinian hospital, so the husband tries to get to an Israeli hospital. They were turned around at a
road block at gun point.
Secondly, a man was shot as a terrorist for crossing the boarder to find work because
his family was starving.
Now I\'m not sure that the stories are true, but I am reasonably confident that the
principles behind them are. Some of the Israeli troops are clamping down very hard. Imagine a similar situation
where you are as equally removed from blame, but still get punished for the actions of a few idiots.
It should be
obvious that being so harsh to the civilians is doing nothing but making things worse. They need a place to live
too. I\'m not saying that by helping them out a little bit the attacks will stop, but look at Northern Ireland,
their argument has somewhat fizzled out. There are still the same idiots running around, but their actions are less
justified (touch wood).
As the Doc said, there is no need to go completely wussy on terrorism, but running around
guns blazing just makes you look stupid, a little thought never hurt anyone.
Bel,
I agree that people
can\'t be left unpunished, but what happens to the innocent people in the way? The war against terrorism should be
a guerrilla war, with lots of careful planning and intel.
belgareth
03-17-2004, 12:35 PM
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Bel,
I agree that people can\'t be left
unpunished, but what happens to the innocent people in the way? The war against terrorism should be a guerrilla war,
with lots of careful planning and intel.
<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
Collateral damage?
Isn\'t that the commonly accepted term used when killing innocent bystanders? That covers about the first fifty
reasons for hating anything to do with war. As cold as it sounds, it\'s going to happen. But let me ask you this,
if we had spent all the effort and money hunting down Bin Laden and his ilk that we spent fighting that completely
pointless war in Iraq, how many people would be alive today that instead died of terrorists bombings?
No, not a
guerrilla war but a carefully planned assault on the source of the desease. Hunt the scum down, put them on trial or
kill them. But whatever you do, rid the world of their presence in such a drastic fashion as to make other would be
terrorists afraid to poke their heads out of their holes.
Elana
03-17-2004, 12:46 PM
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Firstly, a woman was in her car with her husband
when she went into labour. She was miles from a Palestinian hospital, so the husband tries to get to an Israeli
hospital. They were turned around at a road block at gun point.
<hr /></blockquote><font
class=\"post\">
I heard that story too. Guess what? It turned out to be as true as the massacre in Jenin.
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
It never happened. If you want to do some research on this
nonexistent event, all you will find will be the dozens of pregnant Israeli women that were killed in suicide
bombings while they were taking the bus to the market place or sipping coffee at a cafe.
Yes,
Cptkipling....we all have friends that are kind hearted, mild mannered Arabs. Nobody is denying that they exisit in
large numbers.
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
The UK (and whoever else was
involved) was wrong to just displace these people in the way they did. What were they thinking?
<hr
/></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
Nobody was displaced. The Jews needed a place to go after the
holocaust. While thousands of Jewish refugees came to live in a safe Jewish homeland (the only one in the world)
many Arab leaders convinced the Arabs to leave Israel. Israel wanted to live side by side with a Palestinian state.
The Arabs refused. They wanted the Jews dead.
Elana
03-17-2004, 01:06 PM
Cptkipling and anyone else interested....
This is what is really going on in Israel. Note the date. This just
occured a few days ago. This is
typical.
http://news.ninemsn.com.au/World/story_55509
.asp (\"http://news.ninemsn.com.au/World/story_55509.asp\")
sorry for the Clash song title
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif but I been thinking that if Blair has any sense he´s gonna get
the brit troops out of Iraq like PRONTO!! Not to save himself for the next election but to do what´s possible to
save London as best as possible now! London´s so vulnerable and has so many places that can serve as a target for
psycho bombers /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif
Blair´s out no matter what next time round as far as I can
see now but getting the troops out is the least he can do now in terms of providing a sense of safety and maybe a
chance of not getting London targeted, even if it´s just an attempt, it´s better than nothing, it´s worth a try!!!!!
tallmacky
03-17-2004, 01:44 PM
cptkipling:
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Without question the bombers are
horrific mass murderers, and with anything I say I do not mean to condone them in any way. Many would say that these
people bring the problem on themselves, but just how nice would the Israeli government be to the Palestinians if
they....
<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
Wooo, stop right there Captain.......Well Ash, it has
been a few months now and I see what you mean above by the those unaware of both halves can not fully know. Or
accept some truths. (?)
Just how nice would or will they be? Should that even be a question or a concern? The
truth of the matter is there is a double standard here. Suicide bombing, bombing, killing of Israeli\'s by the
Palestinians. Is as many sometimes emotionlessly say \"horrible, just a darn shame, not right at all\" and then
they quickly tell everyone that not every Palestinian is like this, and that no one should be put into one specific
group and on and on and on. People can easily say this, because they are not the Israeli\'s, it\'s not effecting
them personally, along with the hatred for Jews globally, especially in Europe. Do you know how impossible it is to
just call the bombings of people or more less \"threatening\" to \"Jihad and the rest of the Hama [censored] \"
children while going to school. You can\'t just work by that. You can\'t be an Israeli and just hand out peace
and love and commrodity to the Palestinans....but majority speaking they still seem to do, offer peace...Not sure if
I could personally.
The \"racist\" stuff is such bulls**t, the smallest and yet the worst and most hated
group in the world, the Jews are going to be a racist nation? Hahahaha. There is such a thing as blind unchanging
hate and anyone with a clear mind can see who carries that......guess.....come on this is easy...... The fact is if
there is a bombing on a school bus, and 11 school children die, that is seen as horrible, but everyone ACCEPTS it as
the norm (WTF?)....and still thinks that there is nothing wrong with muslim extremist or even muslims who are
bigots....YET let one Israeli screw up, or cause the death of 1 Palestinian and it is the \"evil Israeli\" army
who killed an innocent man, and then Israeli\'s suffer the collectism view of others.....that one complains the
the Palestinians (Arabs) have.
How ironic?
That story was made up as Elana, said....why would they
have to make up a story? Could it be that, that story is the best they could muster as the treatement of
Palestinians pales in comparison to the treatement Jews/Israeli\'s.......yep....
Fake stories vs. Real
actual events of hate and bigotry against mostly Israeli\'s, but those are more understandable/ok right?
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif
This centers around religion, religious exploitation,
blind hate, intolerance, ruthlessness. To deny that there exist a mindset in a considerably larege percentage
(Muslims with hate for Israel/Jews) is not correct. One could care less about ethnicity/race. That is not why the
Israeli\'s are in confrontation with Palestinians and much of the Arab world at all, start with the injustice and
work your way up.
CptKipling
03-18-2004, 02:43 AM
Ahh what a
complicated world we live in.
Like I said, I\'m no expert in this area, far from it in fact. I take most of
what little information I get about this topic with a pinch of salt, and the fact that my friends story was untrue
validates this approach.
I wanted to see less of a one sided slating. Sometimes the talk on here can sound
almost \"angry mob\" like, where all rational thought goes out the window.
Icarus
03-18-2004, 03:59 AM
But what about gays in
the military?
Steve
DrSmellThis
03-18-2004, 04:16 AM
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
Icarus
03-18-2004, 04:55 AM
Are you coming on to
me, sir?
Steve
Elana
03-18-2004, 05:16 AM
I know that would be a
wonderful incentive for our Jason.
Sexyredhead
03-18-2004, 07:23 AM
h
ttp://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=540&e=1&u=/ap/20040318/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq (\"http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=540&e=1&u=/ap/20040318/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq\")
Theyve apparently gotten organized.
thingscouldwork
03-18-2004, 07:27 AM
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Please do not equate American military action
against other countries armies to terrorist actions by the Muslims. They are two separate issues. Can you debate
American military actions in the past? Probably and there is most likely a decent arguement on either side. However,
you can not debate cowardly bombings by terrorist (aimed at innocent people, not armies) at all. It is wrong from
any angle or position.
<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
I don\'t AT ALL!! But:
Imagine living
there and family members of you being killed in their sleep by so-called smart-bombs, while the president calls them
\"collateral damage\"... And all not for the \"greater good\", but to ensure that the US (an the rest of the
West, including us, Germany) has enough oil!!
Ok, but you would just bury your children and go back to ROOT ROOT
ROOT for the US, wouldn\'t you??
Or might you waste a few thoughts on how to fight back??? I understand
Terrorism is f**king weak and coward, BUT what other possibilities have they got?? It\'s not like they can climb
in their M1A1s, ship over to the US and try to fight your Army...
That\'s why I say: At least put yourself in
their role, if only for a minute and try to understand WHY they do it!!!
HAPPY PEOPLE DO NOT STRAP BOMBS TO THEIR
CHEST AND BLOW OTHERS UP!!! So WHY are they unhappy?? THINK ABOUT IT!!
tallmacky
03-18-2004, 08:24 AM
Post
deleted by belgareth
</font><blockquote><font
class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
I am sure if Germany was running the show now, they would not regard
\"life\" at much of a value, oh wait...they didn\'t. The truth is 60 years ago Germany was responsible for the
death of 6 million plus people, think about that number? Now why were these people killed?
<hr
/></blockquote><font class=\"post\"> Thing is, Germany and (most of)Europe has learned from mistakes!! That´s why,
amongs other reasons Germany and France and other countries are so reluctant to go to war, they know what it´s like
and have a clearer picture on what it does to people, especially when it´s happening on their own soil! Why should
I country, in particular like Germany which is still suffering from what happend so long ago go to war? Just because
the big, powerful US government say it´s okay? Yeah right. They did the right thing by keeping out and besides,
neither Germany nor France can afford such undertakings - they´re flat broke and in debt and already have too much
internal sh*t to deal with /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif It would have been plain mad to join
a war at this stage financially speaking. Bush doesn´t care about the money, he´s not the one who has to clean up
the mess that´s for sure.
tallmacky
03-18-2004, 08:56 AM
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Or might you waste a few thoughts on how to fight
back???
<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
This is one of my points.....do you have a
plan on how to peacefully rid the world of Global terrorism? Or to solve it? Is there a better and more productive
way alternative to solving terrorism besides fighting back? If you know please share with us, it is an immense
problem and the mindset of terrorist is something you don\'t understand, even I don\'t understand completely,
but I know hateful people and I know their willingness to just change is inept, and furthermore, I don\'t think
you realize the deep hatred and warped perspective they have of the Israeli\'s, you think this problem just
started? Hah.
So if you don\'t have a better solution or some magic mojo that will work guess what? People
are going to fight back...PERIOD. It\'s the only correct alternative we have, to fight back smart? Yes. of course
but to fight back nonetheless.
I also find it very hypocritical, that the U.S. gets crap painted all over it.
Do I like America\'s past? No, I dislike it greatly it. 60 years ago no telling how I would be treated, probably
nothing like an \"American\". I realize and never try to hide the faults of the U.S. Think about the European
super powers of yesterday, were they any kinder or gentle with the world? I think America has it\'s faults but as
a world power it has done better than most I have seen. I also believe in the future, no matter how shitty the past
is. European nations are responsibly for the degradation of Africa, for the slave trade. Many of those people today
of European desecent call places like Australia, New Zealand. United States, Canada, South America, many islands,
and other places \"home\", but what of the native people? How is this know their \"home\". Was it taken and
wrong to do. Yes. Did the Europeans do or show anymore grace, equality, and love when they were in the drivers seat?
Do I completely like the war in Iraq, I don\'t know I am indifferent to it, but about terrorism, I feel it has to
be fought. If you are asking who is worse I think you know who...say it with me T-E-R-R O-R-I-S-T...nicely
done.
My point above was to say that, whenever a nation has been in the drivers seat, they have
well....f$#ked up big time. Modern Day America (not past) is doing greater than any other past super power.
Can you guestimate the million and millions who died in the slave/brazilian trade. The almost extinction of Native
Americans and so forth....who cries for these people now? Can we do anything about the PAST NO!!! I have blood of
\"conquerers\" and those that were enslaved in me, As much as I dislike the past and hate it, I can see that over
the years the western world is changing more to a place where equality is possible, that\'s called hope,
but nothing is perfect.
Injustices occured, people died, BUT with terrorism it is still alive and
well, we can do something now about innocent people dying out of hate, the past may be set in stone, but the
present has not hardned yet, and fighting back is the only way at this point, unless someone makes a super \"I love
everyone\" pheromone. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
tallmacky
03-18-2004, 09:05 AM
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Thing is, Germany and (most of)Europe has learned
from mistakes!! That´s why, amongs other reasons Germany and France and other countries are so reluctant to go to
war, they know what it´s like and have a clearer picture on what it does to people, especially when it´s happening
on their own soil! Why should I country, in particular like Germany which is still suffering from what happend so
long ago go to war? Just because the big, powerful US government say it´s okay? Yeah right. They did the right thing
by keeping out and besides, neither Germany nor France can afford such undertakings - they´re flat broke and in debt
and already have too much internal sh*t to deal with It would have been plain mad to join a war at this stage
financially speaking. Bush doesn´t care about the money, he´s not the one who has to clean up the mess that´s for
sure.
<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
Firstly, there are things internally that I dislike
here, but when it comes to terrorism I still believe the U.S. is right. If France and Germany don\'t want to go to
war, then fine, but a little support would be best. I know it may not have totally reaked havoc on their soil (I
know spain btw), but it very well could soon will.
Germany suffered? So Germany found out after trying
to ruthlessly and progreessively conqurere all of Europe and kill 6 million plus innocent citizens that war was
bad....WELL DUH!!!! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif No, crap!....This does not deny the bias
against Jews, and the fact that much of Germany \'til this day does not take deserving blame. Why not start by
apologizing to the citizens which were killed, if the knowledge of war and hate is so well understood? Are todays
terrorist problems worse than a possible debt?
We didn\'t ask for this war, we didn\'t ask for terrorism,
maybe the US was not squeaky clean with their policies at all (I can be 100% honest), but there are innocent lives
that are being taken in the name of \"insert reason\". There is no other choice. As for the war in Iraq I am
indifferent on, I am a Independent (not a zealous \"Bush lover\"), but when it comes to terrorism there are no
excuses...
....and again this argument was not about germany going to war or not it was about,
\"thingscouldwork\" asking us to understand and sympathize with terrorists. What next do I need to
understand and sympathize the mental mindset of a child molestor. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
I\'ll save my pity for kids who only go to school, or people who eat out at a restaurant and have no idea what is
about to strike.
Just because germany and
france didn´t want to invade Iraq doesn´t mean there not involved in fighting terrorism or don´t care. It´s simply
that most countries don´t agree on how the problem is being handled ie the idea of going to war. that´s what the
main problem is. Perhaps it will work out soon and Iraq will have it´s own government, a more reasonable than
before /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif. The UN really need to get it sorted quick.
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
<hr /></blockquote><font
class=\"post\"> you´re not even trying to understand what I was getting at. On the other hand, you´ve proven my
point /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
As for Germany, I know it better than you do, so you
can trust me on this one.
Besides, Germany is not under dictatorship as it was back then, not so sure about
another allegedly democratic country umph /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif Bush comes pretty
close to being one IMHO
I find that scary.
I´m not sympathizing with any bleeding terrorist. They´re not
even brave enough to say what the fuke they really want, sit down and negotiate like any sane person would but
instead they take all their problems out on others. Know what those people need? A LIFE and A REAL JOB they
obviously have too much spare time on their hands!!!!
tallmacky
03-18-2004, 09:56 AM
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
A LIFE and A REAL JOB they obviously have too much
spare time on their hands!!!!
<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
Firstly my initial comments
were directed at and for thingscouldwork, but I can play 2 on 1. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif I
don\'t think you understand what I mean. Whether you are being sarcastic or not, a job or a \"life\", is a blip
on the radar screen of the problem. How about a brainwashing, propganda, bigotry, religious (muslim) extremist
thinking, and mind melting madness.....We can start there and work our way up, is that cool with you?
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
</font><blockquote><font
class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
As for Germany, I know it better than you do, so you can trust me on this
one.
<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
How much better do you know it? Do I thus know the U.S.
better than you do? Should you then be prohbitited to comment on certain things? \"thingscouldwork\" knows
absolutely nothing about Germany (gathered from what he had to say) or much for that matter, so that is why I
confronted him, and told him of the hypocrisy that he was stating and used Germany\'s defunked \"past\" as an
example. So lets seperate the issues of sympathize and trying to understand terrorist with the war on Iraq (which
was not my point). Thingscouldwork and you are on two seperate pages.
</font><blockquote><font
class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Bush comes pretty close to being one IMHO
<hr /></blockquote><font
class=\"post\">
I\'m personally not the biggest fan of Bush at all in general, infact many politicians I
don\'t agree with, but are you stating that Bush is a dictator or even close to that?
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif You can\'t compare Bush to Hitler at all in the realms of being
\"dictators\", that is just junk. Bush hasn\'t rolled over France with tanks forcing it\'s alliegenance.
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif Even if you are not comparing the two I still think that is
b/s.
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Germany is not under
dictatorship as it was back then, not so sure about another allegedly democratic country umph Bush comes pretty
close to being one IMHO
I find that scary.
<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
Does that make
it\'s actions pure, though I agree that no one\'s actions are of or can be expected to be of purity. Could one
of the reasons Germany (and Europe) is so reluctant to interfer with this situation is out of disdain for
Jews/Israel, and they see it as somewhat a positive? What about their already existing indifference to the US in
general? It is all of the free worlds burden. I\'m also not saying that there aren\'t some valid
reasons.
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
want to invade Iraq doesn´t mean
there not involved in fighting terrorism or don´t care.
<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
I was
not trying to get into the Iraqi war, but I see that it is a possible excuse. Europe does not like the way in which
it is being conducted? Then what alternative what is Europe currnetly doing with great success to try to confront
terrorism? Did most of Europe support America when they went into Afghanistan, or was that still too harsh of a
decision? I honestly don\'t know how I feel about the Iraqi war personally, sometimes I think it was indeed a bit
self motivated, I think it had some issues big time, was the cause probably a good one. Yes it was, but was the
reason we were given 100% accurate, I\'m unsure.
tallmacky
03-18-2004, 10:02 AM
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
t´s simply that most countries don´t agree on how
the problem is being handled
<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
This is another one of my
points, they don\'t agree with how it is being handled, I can respect that completely and may even agree a bit,
but my question and my point is, what is Europe currently doing to combat terrorism. What other solution is there?
If one does not know a better solution then what is the point of mentioning the possibilty of a better solution. It
seems like a point with no beginning, a scape goating....Talk is cheap, and it is easy to disagree, but to find a
solid new course of effective destructurization of terrorism is completely another thing. If anyone knows, stop
teasing me and tell me I would love to hear. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif I\'m not
specifically speaking of just or Iraq here. The whole enchilada. It is not just Iraq that much of Europe has a
problem with. (concerning the US/terrorism)
No one (I hope), wants war, more death, those of clear and peace
holding minds, do not want this, I am sure a large majority of the Israeli\'s are sick and tired of death, hatred
and so forth. They have seen terrorism in this extreme for awhile, the rest of the world is tired and sick of it
aswell. Nothing of any remote positive comes from that (muslim extremist and terrorism of any kind that which
including everyone) at all, and standing by with happy thoughts of everything magically \"working out\" and
unproven possible peace is assuring our fall.
thingscouldwork
03-18-2004, 10:19 AM
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
There\'s your problem you used the word
\"BUT\". What the hell is that supposed to me? You obviously have nothing at stake or you believe you have nothing
at stake here so you give me the \"BUT\" statement, and thus are not only acknowledging terrorism but trying to
explain it as if it has ANY merit to have the grace of understandment. That\'s like someone saying Yeah I stold
your car, but it was old so who cares right? I don\'t care what you say or what you try to pull, there is no way
whatsoever to rationalize terorism on innocent citizens who are not the government, who are not the \"army\", that
you make or may even have the right to believe is evil. If someone believes blowing up a bus full a children is the
right way to fight back, especially where their hatred of that group of people is not just \"retaliation\", but
religious exploiation and blind hatred and bigotry for say, the Jews, then they are the greater monsters.
<hr
/></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
Yeah, thanks for turning the words in my mouth tall...
Now, again, for
the more narrow-minded ones:
I DO NOT CONDONE TERRORISM IN ANY WAY WHAT SO EVER!!! I ONLY ASK TO PUT YOURSELF IN
THEIR POSITION AND SEE THAT PARTLY THE ACTIONS OF THE US IN THE PAST MADE THE TERRORIST APPEAR IN THE FIRST PLACE
(YES, not all of course...)!!!
I will NOT speak about this anymore in this thread, listening to hours and hours
of propaganda obviously made you mind go from sharp to stale...
AND one more thing:
I\'m sick of being
told that my race has killed 6 millions and it is MY personal duty and fault PLUS I should feel sorry for it.
For
the record: I\'m born in \'81, I think of Hitler as a lunatic just like everyone else and the only reason I even
know of it happening is History lessons and my grandma and grandpa telling me the accational horror
stroy.
Don\'t come onto me with your stupid: \"You can\'t talk, you killed jews\" stuff... I respect ALL
religions and I don\'t even believe in \"God\" myself...
Anyhow, this was my last post concerning this as
some have been brainwashed by the media and there is no point in debating it with them... Thanks very much for all
the people supporting my views! I perfer to spend my evening talking to friends or hot birds, not trying to convince
the world of my \"peaceful ways\"
</font><blockquote><font
class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr
/>
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bush comes pretty
close to being one
IMHO
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I\'m personally
not the biggest fan of Bush at all, infact many politictions I don\'t agree with, but are you stating that Bush is
a dictator or even close to that? You can\'t compare Bush to Hitler at all in the realms of being
\"dictators\", that is just junk. Bush hasn\'t rolled over France with tanks forcing it\'s alliegenance. Even
if you are not comparing the two I still think that is b/s.
<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\"> I
was thinking of how he handles things, I didn´t say he was like Hitler.
</font><blockquote><font
class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
As for Germany, I
know it better than you do, so you can trust me on this one.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
How much better do you
know it? Do I thus know the U.S. better than you do? Should you then be prohbitited to comment on certain things?
\"thingscouldwork\" knows absolutely nothing about Germany (gathered from what he had to say) or much for that
matter, so that is why I confronted him, and told him of the hypocrisy that he was stating and used Germany\'s
defunked \"past\" as an example. So lets seperate the issues of sympathize and trying to understand terrorist with
the war on Iraq (which was not my point). Thingscouldwork and you are on two seperate pages.
<hr
/></blockquote><font class=\"post\"> I didn´t say I agree with him.
When I say that I know Germany better in
the context which I was refering too I mean I know what´s gone on inside the country and how people think and what
their attitude and mentality´s like towards their past and thus their sentiments about war.
I agree we´re on
slightly different angles here as far as your post and my response to what you wrote, I just wanted to chime in and
get things off me chest /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
</font><blockquote><font
class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
What about their already existing indifference to the US in general?
<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\"> In my view it´s exaggerated. I personally don´t agree with Bush´s
invasion of Iraq but that doesn´t mean that I can´t stand all americans now, (this would be impossible btw for
personal reasons), and that´s why I assume how others feel too. It´s just this particualar issue that´s been a
problem but it´ll pass and things will go back to normal again sooner or later.
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif
the only good thing that resulted so far as far as Iraq´s
concerned is that saddam the swine got caught and this rapist §)=§(§&§$&/ son of his is dead.
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif he deserved worse tho I believe.
I had mixed feelings about
Afghanistan right after the WTD, but then I guess it was the only thing to do at that time for Bush. Trouble is I
don´t put both invasions intot he same category but Bush did or pretended to.
My head´s spinning now
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif
It´s all such
a fricking mess I´m thinking of emigrating this planet /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
thingscouldwork
03-18-2004, 10:25 AM
PS:
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
This is one of my points.....do you have a
plan on how to peacefully rid the world of Global terrorism? Or to solve it? Is there a better and more productive
way alternative to solving terrorism besides fighting back? If you know please share with us, it is an immense
problem and the mindset of terrorist is something you don\'t understand, even I don\'t understand completely,
but I know hateful people and I know their willingness to just change is inept, and furthermore, I don\'t think
you realize the deep hatred and warped perspective they have of the Israeli\'s, you think this problem just
started? Hah.
<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
Well, for starters, NOT invading the Iraq while
nearly the entire world shouted \"STOP!!!\" would have helped...
(Oh SORRY, I forgot the US was not alone on
this!!! You had the \"coalition-members\" that were paid billions to support the course of Bush, so he doesn\'t
look like the lone gunman he is!) REALLY, well done!!
</font><blockquote><font
class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
That\'s why I say: At least put yourself in their role, if only for a
minute and try to understand WHY they do it!!!
<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\"> it´s true, people
don´t do this crap for no reason HOWEVER, if they don´t make their problems known and express themselves normally
how the FUKE is the rest of the world suppose to know? If their only way to communicate is to kill people then what
message is everyone else meant to hear but `we just wan´t to kill others´?!?!
thingscouldwork
03-18-2004, 10:34 AM
Well, tell me
how they could have ANY effect on the political course of the US in a diplomatic way. Their ambassadors?? Yeahhhh,
right!!
I don\'t see one, do you??
PS: \"Moslems\" are not all bomb-strapping lunatics, it is a MINORITY,
a FRACTION that does this stuff...
Yet most people judge them like it was them steering the planes into the
WTC... Narrow-minded to say the least...
belgareth
03-18-2004, 10:57 AM
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
That\'s why I say: At least put yourself in
their role, if only for a minute and try to understand WHY they do it!!!
HAPPY PEOPLE DO NOT STRAP BOMBS TO THEIR
CHEST AND BLOW OTHERS UP!!! So WHY are they unhappy?? THINK ABOUT IT!!
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class=\"post\">
You make the assumption that they are rational. Terrorists are not rational and cannot be
reasoned with as if they were.
franki
03-18-2004, 11:00 AM
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
I was not trying to get into the Iraqi
war, but I see that it is a possible excuse. Europe does not like the way in which it is being conducted? Then what
alternative what is Europe currnetly doing with great success to try to confront terrorism? Did most of Europe
support America when they went into Afghanistan, or was that still too harsh of a decision?
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/></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
European countries are engaged in the war against terrorism in
Afghanistan. A number of countries (Germany, Great Britain, Holland) have troops in Afghanistan at the moment.
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