This terrorist stuff is ridiculous [Archive] - Love-Scent Pheromones Forum

bjf

03-11-2004, 07:30 AM

170

innocent lives lost in Spain, and these terrorists think they are any closer to achieving their cause?

EXIT63

03-11-2004, 07:32 AM

What cause?

franki

03-11-2004, 07:38 AM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
What cause?

<hr /></blockquote>

an independant basque-land I guess.

EXIT63

03-11-2004, 07:41 AM

oh

What do they call themselves? Basquets? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

CJ01

03-11-2004, 08:05 AM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
an independant basque-land I guess.

<hr

/></blockquote> and many of them don´t even care about that. Those terrorists are just

dumber than a person should be allowed to be if they think they will achieve getting an independant state by bombing

people!!!
The basque party are against those actions too (allegedly).
these terrorists are too braindead for their

own good IMO. Besides I have some doubts that a basque country or state will be able to survive on its own

economically in the long run.

franki

03-11-2004, 08:59 AM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
Besides I have some doubts that a basque country

or state will be able to survive on its own economically in the long run.

<hr /></blockquote>

The Basque Country has traditionally been one of the most industrialized and rich parts of

Spain. I think that has been one of the reasons that wanted to be independant. Another one is that they have their

own language etc.

EXIT63

03-11-2004, 09:10 AM

What is it with you Europeans and your languages.

The Basques don\'t wanna speak spanish.
The Ukranians wanna

speak ukranian.
The Estonians don\'t wanna speak russian.
etc,etc,etc.

Why don\'t you just speak english

already and get it over with. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

CJ01

03-11-2004, 09:53 AM

I

think everyone should learn german that´ll really cause some mega confusion

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
The Basque Country has traditionally been one of

the most industrialized and rich parts of Spain. I think that has been one of the reasons that wanted to be

independant. Another one is that they have their own language etc.

<hr /></blockquote>

I´m not too familiar with them so thanks. However they´re not that successful all on their own, they have the rest

of spain as backup in some way. They just piss me off with their cowardish killings!!!

Having said that it is

atill not 100% certain whether the bomb attack was theirs or whether it was another groups of psychos.

Elana

03-11-2004, 12:50 PM

DUBAI (Reuters) - A letter

purporting to come from Osama bin Laden (news - web sites)\'s al Qaeda network claimed responsibility for the

train bombings in Spain on Thursday, calling them strikes against \"crusaders,\" a London-based Arabic newspaper

said.

franki

03-11-2004, 12:53 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
DUBAI (Reuters) - A letter purporting to come from

Osama bin Laden (news - web sites)\'s al Qaeda network claimed responsibility for the train bombings in Spain on

Thursday, calling them strikes against \"crusaders,\" a London-based Arabic newspaper said.

<hr

/></blockquote>

yup, there were way too many victims for a \"normal\" ETA (basque

terrorists) attack. This could very well be the work of those Al Qaida morons..

Elana

03-11-2004, 12:56 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
DUBAI (Reuters) - A letter purporting to come from Osama bin Laden (news -

web sites)\'s al Qaeda network claimed responsibility for the train bombings in Spain on Thursday, calling them

strikes against \"crusaders,\" a London-based Arabic newspaper said.

<hr /></blockquote>

yup, there were way too many victims for a \"normal\" ETA (basque terrorists) attack. This

could very well be the work of those Al Qaida morons..

<hr /></blockquote>

I got into

a huge fight with my co-worker about this when the news broke about the bombing. He was mad at me for saying it was

probably Al Qaeda. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

CJ01

03-11-2004, 12:58 PM

I know, I watched BBC this

morning and they already said they didn´t know it was ETA or not. Seeing as Spain support(ed) the USA about Iraq,

Al Qaida is a distinct possibility.
ETA are also more `polite´ they phone or write first these people didn´t.

EXIT63

03-11-2004, 01:07 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
I got into a huge fight with my co-worker about

this when the news broke about the bombing. He was mad at me for saying it was probably Al Qaeda

<hr

/></blockquote>

You co-worker has sh!t between his ears.

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

YOU WORK!?!? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif

Elana

03-11-2004, 01:09 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
I got into a huge fight with my co-worker about this when the news broke

about the bombing. He was mad at me for saying it was probably Al Qaeda

<hr /></blockquote>

You co-worker has sh!t between his ears.

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

YOU WORK!?!? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif

<hr /></blockquote>
Kind of.....a few hours a day

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Elana

03-11-2004, 01:10 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
Your co-worker has sh!t between his ears.

<hr

/></blockquote>

Yeah, he was mad that I blame all terror on those poor lil Islamic

extremists. HA!
When they stop blowing people up, I will stop accusing them.

franki

03-11-2004, 01:22 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

YOU WORK!?!?

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif

<hr /></blockquote>

You

didn\'t know?? I thought you were almost as
well informed about Elana as I am..

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Elana

03-11-2004, 01:23 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

YOU WORK!?!? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif

<hr

/></blockquote>

You didn\'t know?? I thought you were almost as good informed about

Elana as me.. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

<hr /></blockquote>

Porn.....I like to keep it quiet

franki

03-11-2004, 01:24 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
Your co-worker has sh!t between his ears.

<hr /></blockquote>

Yeah, he was mad that I blame all terror on those poor lil Islamic extremists. HA!
When

they stop blowing people up, I will stop accusing them.

<hr /></blockquote>

This is

a typical Al Qaeda style bombing. On tv here they said things in this direction as well. Don\'t forget Spain has a

lot of troops in Iraq at the moment.

CJ01

03-11-2004, 01:34 PM

Masacre is the word used

on spanish yahoo btw. And right on too. About 200 dead and around 1.421 infured so far after a series of bomb

attacks. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif

Elana

03-11-2004, 01:36 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
Masacre is the word used on spanish yahoo btw. And

right on too. About 200 dead and around 1.421 infured so far after a series of bomb attacks.

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif

<hr /></blockquote>It\'s horrible.

The pictures are heart breaking /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif

bjf

03-11-2004, 03:00 PM

This stuff will never go

away, unless some sort of concessions are made, no matter who we bomb.

Innocent people are dying in the

crossfire.

Rakesh

03-11-2004, 03:15 PM

I\'m actually more

pissed at the people who immedietely started blaming the Basques, particularly some Pedro Gonzales idiot of a

politician who said something to the extent of having no doubt in his mind that the ETA is responsible. Good for

your elections and good as an excuse to level the basque areas, but from the beginning everything suggested the

opposite.
They want their own land, they\'re not idiotic enough to do something like this (which would of

course never get them anywhere). Plus ETA always strikes purposefuly, they blow up police stations and military

objects, no big TV show with flashy wrecks and weeping relatives.

belgareth

03-11-2004, 03:18 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
This stuff will never go away, unless some sort of

concessions are made, no matter who we bomb.

Innocent people are dying in the crossfire.

<hr

/></blockquote>

Concessions won\'t make any difference. Innocent people were dying

before we started hunting Al Qaeda. Like any other extortionist, they\'ll be back demanding more and bigger

concessions the next time.

franki

03-11-2004, 03:19 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
Plus ETA always strikes purposefuly, they blow up

police stations and military objects, no big TV show with flashy wrecks and weeping relatives.

<hr

/></blockquote>

Yeah, but is also known that ETA has had problems recruiting new

terrorists, getting new supporters etc. This could have been a former/extreme part of ETA that was not happy with

what was happening and decided to do this..

Rakesh

03-11-2004, 03:21 PM

Truth is that this has

happened to the IRA in the past with splinter groups going on a rampage.

bjf

03-11-2004, 03:28 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
This stuff

will never go away, unless some sort of concessions are made, no matter who we bomb.

Innocent people are dying in

the crossfire.

<hr /></blockquote>

Concessions won\'t make any difference.

Innocent people were dying before we started hunting Al Qaeda. Like any other extortionist, they\'ll be back

demanding more and bigger concessions the next time.

<hr /></blockquote>

My whole

point is, trying to hunt Al Qaeda will not stop things like happening from this. Also, I wouldn\'t consider

hunting them a concession.

Ideals are impractical. You can\'t root out everyone who is angry at you. And all

it takes is one angry person to do a lot of harm. There needs to be more appeasement with the Muslim world.

belgareth

03-11-2004, 03:34 PM

I\'ll agree that

we need to leave the muslim world to run itself, stop interfering with their way of life and government. Appeasement

is not and never will be acceptable though. Hunting them is not a concession. Simply put, there is only one way to

handle somebody who attacks you and appeasement is not it. We do not belong over there trying to tell them how to

live but they have no right to take innocent lives in any act of terrorism. Attacking innocent people, no matter who

does it, is always wrong and cannot be tolerated.

bjf

03-11-2004, 03:39 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
Simply put, there is only one way to handle

somebody who attacks you and appeasement is not it.

<hr /></blockquote>

Well,

muslims and muslim extremists are two different parties. I agree that it isa dangerous message to send if we just

concede everything and give them what they want, but I am just saying give them enough to where the anger isn\'t

so great.

I\'m not willing to be a sacrificial lamb in the ideal of don\'t bargain with terrorists.

belgareth

03-11-2004, 03:49 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
Simply put, there is only one way to handle somebody who attacks you and

appeasement is not it.

<hr /></blockquote>

Well, muslims and muslim extremists are

two different parties. I agree that it isa dangerous message to send if we just concede everything and give them

what they want, but I am just saying give them enough to where the anger isn\'t so great.

I\'m not willing

to be a sacrificial lamb in the ideal of don\'t bargain with terrorists.

<hr /></blockquote>

I am unwilling to give an inch to terrorists. Their actions are extortion and as I said before,

any concession will result in greater demands. An act of terrorism shows the person is not rational and is is

unlikely to be willing to meet you half way. Look at other similar groups and tell me one that has been willing to

honestly compromise and stop the killing. Becoming a sacraficial lamb does not appeal to me either but I\'d rather

go out fighting for my beliefs now than to pay the piper time and again before he decides to blow me up.

EXIT63

03-11-2004, 04:28 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
This stuff will never go away, unless some sort of

concessions are made, no matter who we bomb.

<hr /></blockquote>

Nonsense.

There\'s only one way to deal with terrorism.

With swift and blinding violence!

Elana

03-11-2004, 04:32 PM

EXIT FOR PRESIDENT!

Ash

03-11-2004, 04:33 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
Simply

put, there is only one way to handle somebody who attacks you and appeasement is not it.

<hr

/></blockquote>

Well, muslims and muslim extremists are two different parties. I agree

that it isa dangerous message to send if we just concede everything and give them what they want, but I am just

saying give them enough to where the anger isn\'t so great.

I\'m not willing to be a sacrificial lamb in

the ideal of don\'t bargain with terrorists.

<hr /></blockquote>

bjf

Your

replies to this thread really got my blood up! I\'ll try to be kind. You need to stop listening to NPR. Try

reading some books on the subject. Start with \"Tea with Terrorists\". Elana can give you some more titles. Stop

listening to left wing appeasement propaganda and find out who your enemy is and why he wants YOU dead. Here\'s

the long and the short of it. Do you believe in allah? Did you bend your knee to him in submission today? If you

didn\'t and aren\'t willing to then osama, taking his instructions from the Koran and the Hadif, wants you dead.

Below is a post I made to another Forum a few months back.

islam means \"submission\". Contrary to the swill

being feed to us by the media and our politicians, islam is NOT a religion of Peace. There are two books that are

the \"Hand books\" of islam. The koran, which most have heard of, and the Hadif, which most have not heard of.

Neither books have any reference to \"Peace\" in them at all. Both books expound the teachings of mohamed the

\"profit\", who, by all accounts, was a rather creepy little deformed white guy with a goitered neck who hated

Jews. According to these books, islam means \"submission, by sword, to the will of allah !! Submit to Allah or

die!!!!

According to mohamed and the \"books\" of islam there are two worlds! Dar el islam and Dar el Harb. Dar

el islam is the world belonging to islam and allah. Dar el Harb is everything else. According to allah, mohamed and

his books, everything which is not islam, i.e.. Dar el Harb, must die. Submit to allah and islam or die is the only

message in the books of islam. The Hadif is the handbook on how to make the world of Dar el Harb submit to allah and

islam. The Hadif is the book that osama bin laden and the \"True\" believers read and adhere to. The Hadif is

about 600 pages long and gets into great detail about how to convert, by the sword, Dar el Harb into Dar el islam.

Lie, cheat, steal and murder are it\'s main means of conversion.

The message of allah, mohamed and islam is

simple. You are either part of islam or you must die!!! It doesn\'t matter if you\'re a Christian or a Jew or a

Buddhist or an Aitheist; an American, a Frenchmen or if you\'re Chinese; if you\'re not islam and refuse to

\"submit\" to islam then you need to die. This is according to allah\'s \"Will\". The world of islam breaks

down into two groups. Good islamists and bad islamists. The bad islamist don\'t read and adhere to the book. The

good islamist do read and adhere to the book. It\'s kinda like nazi Germany. You had good nazi\'s and bad

nazi\'s. The good nazi\'s bought into the lies and took part in the murders. The bad nazi\'s were swept along

keeping their mouths shut lest they get sent to the camps as well.

I am not optimistic about the future. As long

as we have this \"head up the ass, politically correct\" , \"Can\'t we all just get along\" attitude toward

islam, we\'re F*CKED!!!!!

In the words of a rather infamous Brother. \"The time has come for each and every

one of you to decide. Brothers and Sisters, take 5 seconds to decide weather you want to be part of the problem or

part of the solution. 5 seconds is all you need.\"

Read some books bjf and take your 5 seconds!

Peace out

Bro.

Macky, can you name that Brother?

bjf

03-11-2004, 04:35 PM

What can I say? It all

sounds good on paper, but when your sister was blocks from the WTC, your brother and law is with cantor fitzgerald,

your boss is in the wtc, your co-workers know a highjacker, and everyone you know knew people who had to jump to

their death or were blown to bits, ideals get thrown out the window.

You can\'t just squash out every crazy

person like ants, you have to address the issue that they are so angry about. If this doesn\'t happen, then

myself, my family, my friends, my coworkers and my neighbors could just get blown up in the middle of reading the

morning paper.

I think some of their angers are probably legitimate and it is time to make some concessions, even

if we do not agree, because whatever we are protecting is not worth more than the lives of the people who have

already died.

Kari

03-11-2004, 04:46 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
DUBAI (Reuters) - A letter purporting to come from Osama bin Laden (news -

web sites)\'s al Qaeda network claimed responsibility for the train bombings in Spain on Thursday, calling them

strikes against \"crusaders,\" a London-based Arabic newspaper said.

<hr /></blockquote>

Osama hashad very serious kidney disease. He has needed regular dialysis. Some of the Eastern

and Middle-Eastern papers are saying that he died months ago. Some people think we are keeping him \"alive\" to

have a rationale for some of our activities.

EXIT63

03-11-2004, 04:49 PM

And I saw Elvis at

Dunkin Donuts.

franki

03-11-2004, 04:54 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
DUBAI (Reuters) - A letter purporting to come from Osama bin Laden (news -

web sites)\'s al Qaeda network claimed responsibility for the train bombings in Spain on Thursday, calling them

strikes against \"crusaders,\" a London-based Arabic newspaper said.

<hr /></blockquote>

Osama hashad very serious kidney disease. He has needed regular dialysis. Some of the Eastern

and Middle-Eastern papers are saying that he died months ago. Some people think we are keeping him \"alive\" to

have a rationale for some of our activities.

<hr /></blockquote>

Even if he would be

dead. There is still plenty of reason to hunt those Al Qaeda and Taliban guys in Afghanistan after all that has

happened.

Elana

03-11-2004, 05:01 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
Simply

put, there is only one way to handle somebody who attacks you and appeasement is not it.

<hr

/></blockquote>

Well, muslims and muslim extremists are two different parties. I agree

that it isa dangerous message to send if we just concede everything and give them what they want, but I am just

saying give them enough to where the anger isn\'t so great.

I\'m not willing to be a sacrificial lamb in

the ideal of don\'t bargain with terrorists.

<hr /></blockquote>

bjf

Your

replies to this thread really got my blood up! I\'ll try to be kind. You need to stop listening to NPR. Try

reading some books on the subject. Start with \"Tea with Terrorists\". Elana can give you some more titles. Stop

listening to left wing appeasement propaganda and find out who your enemy is and why he wants YOU dead. Here\'s

the long and the short of it. Do you believe in allah? Did you bend your knee to him in submission today? If you

didn\'t and aren\'t willing to then osama, taking his instructions from the Koran and the Hadif, wants you dead.

Below is a post I made to another Forum a few months back.

islam means \"submission\". Contrary to the swill

being feed to us by the media and our politicians, islam is NOT a religion of Peace. There are two books that are

the \"Hand books\" of islam. The koran, which most have heard of, and the Hadif, which most have not heard of.

Neither books have any reference to \"Peace\" in them at all. Both books expound the teachings of mohamed the

\"profit\", who, by all accounts, was a rather creepy little deformed white guy with a goitered neck who hated

Jews. According to these books, islam means \"submission, by sword, to the will of allah !! Submit to Allah or

die!!!!

According to mohamed and the \"books\" of islam there are two worlds! Dar el islam and Dar el Harb. Dar

el islam is the world belonging to islam and allah. Dar el Harb is everything else. According to allah, mohamed and

his books, everything which is not islam, i.e.. Dar el Harb, must die. Submit to allah and islam or die is the only

message in the books of islam. The Hadif is the handbook on how to make the world of Dar el Harb submit to allah and

islam. The Hadif is the book that osama bin laden and the \"True\" believers read and adhere to. The Hadif is

about 600 pages long and gets into great detail about how to convert, by the sword, Dar el Harb into Dar el islam.

Lie, cheat, steal and murder are it\'s main means of conversion.

The message of allah, mohamed and islam is

simple. You are either part of islam or you must die!!! It doesn\'t matter if you\'re a Christian or a Jew or a

Buddhist or an Aitheist; an American, a Frenchmen or if you\'re Chinese; if you\'re not islam and refuse to

\"submit\" to islam then you need to die. This is according to allah\'s \"Will\". The world of islam breaks

down into two groups. Good islamists and bad islamists. The bad islamist don\'t read and adhere to the book. The

good islamist do read and adhere to the book. It\'s kinda like nazi Germany. You had good nazi\'s and bad

nazi\'s. The good nazi\'s bought into the lies and took part in the murders. The bad nazi\'s were swept along

keeping their mouths shut lest they get sent to the camps as well.

I am not optimistic about the future. As long

as we have this \"head up the ass, politically correct\" , \"Can\'t we all just get along\" attitude toward

islam, we\'re F*CKED!!!!!

In the words of a rather infamous Brother. \"The time has come for each and every

one of you to decide. Brothers and Sisters, take 5 seconds to decide weather you want to be part of the problem or

part of the solution. 5 seconds is all you need.\"

Read some books bjf and take your 5 seconds!

Peace out

Bro.

Macky, can you name that Brother?

<hr /></blockquote>

DAMN GOOD POST,

ASH!!! I take back my Oprah comment. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Elana

03-11-2004, 05:03 PM

bjf....I am not sure

what world you are living in, but if you really think that you can reason with these monsters you have got another

thing coming. Unless you want to convert and believe what they tell you to believe, then they want you just as dead

as those thousands of Americans that were killed at the WTC on 9/11

bjf

03-11-2004, 05:11 PM

\"These

monsters\"???

You really think all muslims are monsters?

I highly doubt that.

Elana

03-11-2004, 05:14 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
\"These monsters\"???

You really think all

muslims are monsters?

I highly doubt that.

<hr /></blockquote>

We aren\'t

talking about ALL MUSLIMS. We are dealing with Islamic fundimentalists. Do you seriously think that you can

\"reason\" with them?

Elana

03-11-2004, 05:19 PM

bjf...I couldn\'t

even believe what I was reading when I saw your first post. I convinced myself that I was misinterpreting what you

were saying. I am actually shocked that you think that there is some leverage here, as if any of us could change the

mindset of pure evil.

bjf

03-11-2004, 05:20 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
\"These

monsters\"???

You really think all muslims are monsters?

I highly doubt that.

<hr

/></blockquote>

We aren\'t talking about ALL MUSLIMS. We are dealing with Islamic

fundimentalists. Do you seriously think that you can \"reason\" with them?

<hr /></blockquote>

Well, since you were addressing my point of view, and I stated that I was talking about

dealing with the issues of the muslim population, not bartering with extremists, I think that is an irrelavent

debate.

I never talked about negotiating with terrorists. Here are quotes from my posts:

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
There needs to be more appeasement with the Muslim

world.

<hr /></blockquote>

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
Well, muslims and muslim extremists are two different parties.

<hr

/></blockquote>

Elana

03-11-2004, 05:22 PM

How do you suggest we

deal with the Muslim population? If you had the stage, what would you say to them? I am not understanding what point

you want to get across to them so that they will change their mindset.

bjf

03-11-2004, 05:34 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
How do you suggest we deal with the Muslim population? If you had the stage,

what would you say to them? I am not understanding what point you want to get across to them so that they will

change their mindset.

<hr /></blockquote>

You are not understanding what point I

wanted to get across to the muslim population because I never stated I had one for them.

I don\'t claim to

have answers as to how to appease anyone. But I think that intelligence and military won\'t get the job done.

190 families learned that today.

More of the concerns in the muslim community need to be addressed. Anger on

their part is not a good thing from where I am sitting at, at that is all I know I know, whether it is satisfactory

to anyone or not. Again, I don\'t claim to have some panacea in mind to all of this.

Elana

03-11-2004, 05:38 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
More of the concerns in the muslim community need

to be addressed.

<hr /></blockquote>

Like what? What can we do to make them like us?

Ash

03-11-2004, 05:44 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
What can I say? It all sounds good on paper, but when your sister was blocks

from the WTC, your brother and law is with cantor fitzgerald, your boss is in the wtc, your co-workers know a

highjacker, and everyone you know knew people who had to jump to their death or were blown to bits, ideals get

thrown out the window.

You can\'t just squash out every crazy person like ants, you have to address the issue

that they are so angry about. If this doesn\'t happen, then myself, my family, my friends, my coworkers and my

neighbors could just get blown up in the middle of reading the morning paper.

I think some of their angers are

probably legitimate and it is time to make some concessions, even if we do not agree, because whatever we are

protecting is not worth more than the lives of the people who have already died.

<hr /></blockquote>

Was this a reply to my post? I\'m not talking to my shadow bjf, I\'m talking to you! Read

my post again and maybe some of what I wrote will get through.

\"you have to address the issue that they are so

angry about.\" The only issue is we\'re not islam!!! What part of that don\'t you understand? We could

withdraw all our troops and remove all our interests in Muslim countries right now and osama would still be plotting

against us because we\'re not islam! I\'m sorry for your personal losses and grief about things but we\'re

going to lose a lot more people because of the attitude and ignorance of people like you. \"ideals get thrown out

the window.\" This isn\'t about ideals, it\'s about survival! I read your kiss-ass appeasement statements and

I almost get sick. What truly horrifies me about people like yourself is your lazy NPR spoon fed minds. You\'re

ignorance on the subject condemns you to being a victim. You have the right to be a victim if you choose. You

don\'t have the right to make me a victim too.

Estimates are about one billion Muslims with only about 5%

being of the Fundamentalist persuasion. That\'s 500,000,000 that want YOU dead personally because you\'re not

Muslim.

bjf

03-11-2004, 05:46 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
More of the

concerns in the muslim community need to be addressed.

<hr /></blockquote>

Like

what? What can we do to make them like us?

<hr /></blockquote>

Read the above

post and you woildn\'t ask me that.

It was hell around here during 9/11, and there has been continous

attacls after that. I\'m willing to take a deal that might even be unfair to some, but helps stop these attacks

that will never cease if we do not work with the Muslim community.

Ash

03-11-2004, 05:48 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
I take back my Oprah comment.

<hr /></blockquote>

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif

I must have missed that one. I\'ll find it and get back to

you.

tallmacky

03-11-2004, 05:48 PM

Brother J.C

Crawford, Ash?

Bjf Elana\'s and Ash\'s posts have been remarkable....Personally if you look at the Muslim

community in America you will see things and you will see that they do not want to even be \"addressed\".

bjf,

you should really open a ear to what Elana and Ash are saying, I know you are a really nice guy (like me) and find

some things hard to believe, like I once did, but the knowledge is right there, and I finally learnt something about

the situation then I talked about it. Not being rude to you but there is a lot to know and Elana knows it like the

back of her hand and knows the dangers and so forth.

Elana

03-11-2004, 05:50 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
More of the

concerns in the muslim community need to be addressed.

<hr /></blockquote>

Like

what? What can we do to make them like us?

<hr /></blockquote>

Read the above post

and you won\'t ask me that.

It was hell around here during 9/11, and there has been continous bombings after

that. I\'m willing to take a deal that might even be unfair to some, but helps stop these attacks that will never

cease if we do not work with the Muslim community.

<hr /></blockquote>

This has

been going on for many years. This is not some new wave dislike towards Americans. I am still not getting what you

blame us for to make these monsters want to kill us.

bjf

03-11-2004, 05:51 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
Brother J.C Crawford, Ash?

Bjf Elana\'s and Ash\'s posts have been

remarkable....Personally if you look at the Muslim community in America you will see things and you will see that

they do not want to even be \"addressed\".

bjf, you should really open a ear to what Elana and Ash are saying,

I know you are a really nice guy (like me) and find some things hard to believe, like I once did, but the knowledge

is right there, and I finally learnt something about the situation then I talked about it. Not being rude to you but

there is a lot to know and Elana knows it like the back of her hand and knows the dangers and so forth.

<hr

/></blockquote>

TM, I have no doubt she knows more about the conflict than I do between

Jews and muslims.

Again, there is a big difference between life and death and ideals.

Elana

03-11-2004, 05:56 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
Again, there is a big difference between life and

death and ideals.

<hr /></blockquote>
So what would you suggest we do to make them not

want to kill us? I am just trying to understand your point. I am not trying to be a bitch. I just wanna make some

sense out of what you are getting at.

Ash

03-11-2004, 05:58 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
More of the concerns in the muslim community need

to be addressed.

<hr /></blockquote>

Like what? What can we do to make them like us?

<hr /></blockquote>

Read the above post and you woildn\'t ask me that.

It was

hell around here during 9/11, and there has been continous attacls after that. I\'m willing to take a deal that

might even be unfair to some, but helps stop these attacks that will never cease if we do not work with the Muslim

community.

<hr /></blockquote>

For now they want the \"blood of every living

Jew to wash the streets of Jerusalem\". Is that the kind of deal you want?

Elana

03-11-2004, 05:59 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
More of the concerns in the muslim community need

to be addressed.

<hr /></blockquote>

Like what? What can we do to make them like us?

<hr /></blockquote>

Read the above post and you woildn\'t ask me that.

It was

hell around here during 9/11, and there has been continous attacls after that. I\'m willing to take a deal that

might even be unfair to some, but helps stop these attacks that will never cease if we do not work with the Muslim

community.

<hr /></blockquote>

For now they want the \"blood of every living

Jew to wash the streets of Jerusalem\". Is that the kind of deal you want?

<hr /></blockquote>

Not in my lifetime. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif

Elana

03-11-2004, 06:06 PM

or any thereafter

bjf

03-11-2004, 06:07 PM

Do you guys seriously

think that diminishing anger in the muslim comumnity requires spilling the blood of every jew?

I\'d strongly

disagree.

Elana

03-11-2004, 06:10 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
Do you guys seriously think that diminishing anger

in the muslim comumnity requires spilling the blood of every jew?

I\'d strongly disagree.

<hr

/></blockquote>

This has nothing to do with diminishing their anger. It is their goal.

What fairy tale land are you living in? You are acting as this is all news to you, as if you have never heard this

before.

Mtnjim

03-11-2004, 06:11 PM

\"This has been going

on for many years. This is not some new wave dislike towards Americans. I am still not getting what you blame us for

to make these monsters want to kill us.\"

Heck, they\'re still pissed off at us, Briton, and France for our

actions there after WW I.And saying ALL Muslims are evil because of the fundamentalists would be like saying all

protestants and Catholics are evil based on the fundamentalists in Northern Ireland.

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

Ash

03-11-2004, 06:11 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
Do you guys seriously think that diminishing anger in the muslim comumnity

requires spilling the blood of every jew?

I\'d strongly disagree.

<hr /></blockquote>

I don\'t believe that bjf but they do. If you weren\'t so bullsh**ted by propaganda

you\'d know that too.

Elana

03-11-2004, 06:13 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
And saying ALL Muslims are evil because of the

fundamentalists would be like saying all protestants and Catholics are evil based on the fundamentalists in Northern

Ireland.

<hr /></blockquote>

I don\'t think that anyone here is saying that.

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

tallmacky

03-11-2004, 06:19 PM

It seems that the

impact of 9/11 has almost completey faded away. Or what potenial\'s may erupt?

I can see how those not from

the U.S. can and maybe not feel as strongly (9/11), but this time it happen In Europe, in Spain. How is appeasement

working out now? This is the worst act of terorism I believe Spain has ever had. When we hear 190 dead in this day

and age many can take that lightly, but just imagine that, bro?

Obviously not bjf, a mass killing out of

cracked religious sake is the worst act of intolerance (pure dangerous hate/bigotry), someone thought that you and

your ideas were so wrong that they felt the need to destroy your life? How do you deal with this? How else can you?

What other choice man?

I mean brutually killing people on the masses should send up the \"what the f*ck is

going on, we have a huge f*cking problem!\" alert signal eh? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

Elana

03-11-2004, 06:23 PM

I refuse to let

American\'s take any of the blame for the deaths of those innocent people on 9/11 and all of the other terrorists

acts that occurred and killed thousands of innocent lives. That is outrageous and it insults me to the core.

bjf

03-11-2004, 06:26 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
Do you guys

seriously think that diminishing anger in the muslim comumnity requires spilling the blood of every jew?

I\'d

strongly disagree.

<hr /></blockquote>

This has nothing to do with

diminishing their anger. It is their goal. What fairy tale land are you living in? You are acting as this is all

news to you, as if you have never heard this before.

<hr /></blockquote>

The goal of

the muslims I know isnt spilling my blood. They are good people.

Just like there is indoctrination over there

about jews and westerners, there is indoctrination here about muslims.

This has everyting to do with diminishing

anger in the muslim community, as innocent people are losing their lives. I can\'t underscore to you enough of

how horrific such tragedies are.

So I\'ll keep my position on this matter, and we will have to agree to

disagree.

Elana

03-11-2004, 06:29 PM

With all due

respect....you are clueless on this subject. My jaw has dropped to the floor. I don\'t know what else to say.

Elana

03-11-2004, 06:33 PM

Maybe if we send them

fruit baskets they will like us

OCP

03-11-2004, 06:35 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
<blockquote>Quote:<hr

/>
<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
This stuff will never go away, unless some sort

of concessions are made, no matter who we bomb.

Innocent people are dying in the crossfire.

<hr

/></blockquote>

Concessions won\'t make any difference. Innocent people were dying

before we started hunting Al Qaeda. Like any other extortionist, they\'ll be back demanding more and bigger

concessions the next time.

<hr /></blockquote>

My whole point is, trying to hunt Al

Qaeda will not stop things like happening from this. Also, I wouldn\'t consider hunting them a

concession.

Ideals are impractical. You can\'t root out everyone who is angry at you. And all it takes is one

angry person to do a lot of harm. There needs to be more appeasement with the Muslim world.

<hr

/></blockquote>

The Muslim world does not want appeasement! They want the destruction of

the Jews. They are no different than Hitler, except they are complete cowards the kill innocent people.

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif

OCP

03-11-2004, 06:36 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
I\'ll agree that we need to leave the muslim world to run itself, stop

interfering with their way of life and government.

<hr /></blockquote>

Only when

they stop interferring with our way of life and the Israeli way of life. These people are the absolute scum of the

earth and they need to be treated that way.

OCP

03-11-2004, 06:38 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
This stuff

will never go away, unless some sort of concessions are made, no matter who we bomb.

<hr /></blockquote>

Nonsense. There\'s only one way to deal with terrorism.

With swift and blinding

violence!

<hr /></blockquote>

I second that!! Kudos to Bush for having the

Huevos to after the bastards!

OCP

03-11-2004, 06:39 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

EXIT FOR PRESIDENT!

<hr /></blockquote>

Can

I be VP! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Elana

03-11-2004, 06:41 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

EXIT FOR PRESIDENT!

<hr /></blockquote>

Can

I be VP! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

<hr /></blockquote>

I

don\'t know. You scare me. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Oh what the hell. Sure.

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

OCP

03-11-2004, 06:43 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
Simply put, there is only one way to handle

somebody who attacks you and appeasement is not it.

<hr /></blockquote>

Well,

muslims and muslim extremists are two different parties. I agree that it isa dangerous message to send if we just

concede everything and give them what they want, but I am just saying give them enough to where the anger isn\'t

so great.

I\'m not willing to be a sacrificial lamb in the ideal of don\'t bargain with terrorists.

<hr /></blockquote>

bjf

Your replies to this thread really got my blood up!

I\'ll try to be kind. You need to stop listening to NPR. Try reading some books on the subject. Start with \"Tea

with Terrorists\". Elana can give you some more titles. Stop listening to left wing appeasement propaganda and find

out who your enemy is and why he wants YOU dead. Here\'s the long and the short of it. Do you believe in allah?

Did you bend your knee to him in submission today? If you didn\'t and aren\'t willing to then osama, taking his

instructions from the Koran and the Hadif, wants you dead. Below is a post I made to another Forum a few months

back.

islam means \"submission\". Contrary to the swill being feed to us by the media and our politicians,

islam is NOT a religion of Peace. There are two books that are the \"Hand books\" of islam. The koran, which most

have heard of, and the Hadif, which most have not heard of. Neither books have any reference to \"Peace\" in them

at all. Both books expound the teachings of mohamed the \"profit\", who, by all accounts, was a rather creepy

little deformed white guy with a goitered neck who hated Jews. According to these books, islam means \"submission,

by sword, to the will of allah !! Submit to Allah or die!!!!

According to mohamed and the \"books\" of islam

there are two worlds! Dar el islam and Dar el Harb. Dar el islam is the world belonging to islam and allah. Dar el

Harb is everything else. According to allah, mohamed and his books, everything which is not islam, i.e.. Dar el

Harb, must die. Submit to allah and islam or die is the only message in the books of islam. The Hadif is the

handbook on how to make the world of Dar el Harb submit to allah and islam. The Hadif is the book that osama bin

laden and the \"True\" believers read and adhere to. The Hadif is about 600 pages long and gets into great detail

about how to convert, by the sword, Dar el Harb into Dar el islam. Lie, cheat, steal and murder are it\'s main

means of conversion.

The message of allah, mohamed and islam is simple. You are either part of islam or you must

die!!! It doesn\'t matter if you\'re a Christian or a Jew or a Buddhist or an Aitheist; an American, a Frenchmen

or if you\'re Chinese; if you\'re not islam and refuse to \"submit\" to islam then you need to die. This is

according to allah\'s \"Will\". The world of islam breaks down into two groups. Good islamists and bad

islamists. The bad islamist don\'t read and adhere to the book. The good islamist do read and adhere to the book.

It\'s kinda like nazi Germany. You had good nazi\'s and bad nazi\'s. The good nazi\'s bought into the lies

and took part in the murders. The bad nazi\'s were swept along keeping their mouths shut lest they get sent to the

camps as well.

I am not optimistic about the future. As long as we have this \"head up the ass, politically

correct\" , \"Can\'t we all just get along\" attitude toward islam, we\'re F*CKED!!!!!

In the words of a

rather infamous Brother. \"The time has come for each and every one of you to decide. Brothers and Sisters, take 5

seconds to decide weather you want to be part of the problem or part of the solution. 5 seconds is all you

need.\"

Read some books bjf and take your 5 seconds!

Peace out Bro.

Macky, can you name that Brother?

<hr /></blockquote>

Ash, what you wrote is 100% correct, but the wimpy liberal in the

states and the world just refuse to believe it. The Muslims will not stop until they conquer the world. That is

their goal. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif

Elana

03-11-2004, 06:46 PM

Ash is extremely in the

know when it comes to this subject. I have had many talks with him about it and the guy is very well read and not

from biased sources.

Ash

03-11-2004, 06:49 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
Ash, what you wrote is 100% correct, but the wimpy liberal in the states and

the world just refuse to believe it. The Muslims will not stop until they conquer the world. That is their goal.

<hr /></blockquote>

Yeah, we\'re F*CKED!!

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif I\'m going to go read E\'s bad about me now. That\'ll make

me feel better. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Elana

03-11-2004, 06:50 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
Ash, what you wrote is 100% correct, but the wimpy liberal in the states and

the world just refuse to believe it. The Muslims will not stop until they conquer the world. That is their goal.

<hr /></blockquote>

Yeah, we\'re F*CKED!!

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif I\'m going to go read E\'s bad about me now. That\'ll make

me feel better. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

<hr /></blockquote>

I took it back /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif sorry

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

bjf

03-11-2004, 06:54 PM

The muslim community

aren\'t robots who just go doing whatever their book tells them to.

There are plenty of muslims who do want

peace.

OCP

03-11-2004, 06:55 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
How do you

suggest we deal with the Muslim population? If you had the stage, what would you say to them? I am not understanding

what point you want to get across to them so that they will change their mindset.

<hr /></blockquote>
I don\'t claim to have answers as to how to appease anyone. But I think that intelligence and

military won\'t get the job done. 190 families learned that today.

<hr /></blockquote>

If not the brave men in the military putting their butts in harms way then who will get it

done! You?, with your little whiny \"can\'t we all just get along\" attitude! The Un with their \"let\'s be

politically correct\" attitude? These people are not screwing around and they have to be removed from the face of

this earth and the sooner the better.

Oh, BTW, the 190 families were affected by the terroists and not the

military. Do not forget that!

Elana

03-11-2004, 07:06 PM

Maybe we should have

appeased Hitler

Ash

03-11-2004, 07:15 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
The muslim community aren\'t robots who just go doing whatever their book

tells them to.

<hr /></blockquote>

That\'s right bjf. Those

that DON\"T read the book want and love peace. It\'s the 500,000,000 that do read the book that you have to worry

about. Elana and I and a few others have to worry about the 500M plus people like you! Personally I\'m not

frightened by the 500M but your vacuous intransigent mind scares the S out of me.

bjf

03-11-2004, 07:22 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
If not the brave men in the military putting their butts in harms way then

who will get it done!

<hr /></blockquote>

The military and intelligence are great

tools, but innocent people are still too vunerable.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
You?, with your little whiny \"can\'t we all just get along\" attitude!

<hr /></blockquote>

Not me. I went through this with Elana.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
The Un with their \"let\'s be politically

correct\" attitude? These people are not screwing around and they have to be removed from the face of this earth

and the sooner the better.

<hr /></blockquote>

Yep, they are not screwing around.

Keep on using the military and intelligence to remove the nutcases. But do you think we can just exteriminate them?

Obviously not. We have to improve our relations with the Muslim community, THE MODERATES. It is too bad you have

such a low opinion of muslims in general, but perhaps I am misunderstanding you.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
Oh, BTW, the 190 families were affected by the terroists and not the

military. Do not forget that!

<hr /></blockquote>

Saying the military and intelligence

can only go so far does not translate into blaming them for everything.

OCP

03-11-2004, 07:37 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
Do you guys seriously think that diminishing anger in the muslim comumnity

requires spilling the blood of every jew?

I\'d strongly disagree.

<hr /></blockquote>

Then you have your head in the sand and do not really understand the issues.

OCP

03-11-2004, 07:41 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
<blockquote>Quote:<hr

/>
<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
Do you guys seriously think that diminishing

anger in the muslim comumnity requires spilling the blood of every jew?

I\'d strongly disagree.

<hr /></blockquote>

This has nothing to do with diminishing their anger. It is their

goal. What fairy tale land are you living in? You are acting as this is all news to you, as if you have never heard

this before.

<hr /></blockquote>

The goal of the muslims I know isnt spilling my

blood. They are good people.

<hr /></blockquote>

1) You know little about

Muslims.

2) How many Muslims do you personally know?

3) I suspect the answer is NONE, so how would you know if

they are good people or not?

OCP

03-11-2004, 07:42 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
Maybe if we send them fruit baskets they will like us

<hr

/></blockquote>

Only if there are grenades in the basket.

OCP

03-11-2004, 07:43 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
<blockquote>Quote:<hr

/>
<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

EXIT FOR PRESIDENT!

<hr

/></blockquote>

Can I be VP! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

<hr

/></blockquote>

I don\'t know. You scare me.

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Oh what the hell. Sure.

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

<hr /></blockquote>

I scare you?

Damn girl, I am terrified of you! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

bjf

03-11-2004, 07:46 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
Do you guys

seriously think that diminishing anger in the muslim comumnity requires spilling the blood of every jew?

I\'d

strongly disagree.

<hr /></blockquote>

Then you have your head in the sand

and do not really understand the issues.

<hr /></blockquote>

I hope you get to meet

more or meet some muslims in your lifetime, and maybe your opinion of this will change.

In any case, the premise

of our arguments obviously differ, so we will just have to agree to disagree. Hopefully, we can put this one to

bed now.

OCP

03-11-2004, 07:46 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
The muslim community aren\'t robots who just go doing whatever their book

tells them to.

There are plenty of muslims who do want peace.

<hr /></blockquote>

How do you know this? You do not know this. You think that these people think like you. They

do not! They think much differently than Western society. They feel it is their devine right to rule the world.

OCP

03-11-2004, 07:50 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
Maybe we should have appeased Hitler

<hr /></blockquote>

We tried.....it did not work then either.

OCP

03-11-2004, 07:52 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

Yep, they are not screwing around. Keep on using the military and

intelligence to remove the nutcases. But do you think we can just exteriminate them? Obviously not. We have to

improve our relations with the Muslim community, THE MODERATES. It is too bad you have such a low opinion of

muslims in general, but perhaps I am misunderstanding you.

<hr /></blockquote>

Nope,

you understand exactly what I am saying. Islam is dangerous to ALL the peace loving nations in the world!

bjf

03-11-2004, 08:04 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

1) You know little about Muslims.

2)

How many Muslims do you personally know?

3) I suspect the answer is NONE, so how would you know if they are

good people or not?

<hr /></blockquote>

LOL!

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

<blockquote>Quote:<hr

/>
<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
Maybe we should have appeased Hitler

<hr

/></blockquote>

We tried.....it did not work then either.

<hr

/></blockquote>

I didn\'t say this, just for the record.

OCP, I am done

arguing.

Ash

03-11-2004, 08:12 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
It is too bad you have such a low opinion of muslims in general, but perhaps

I am misunderstanding you.

<hr /></blockquote>

\"misunderstanding you\" would be

an understatement bjf. Nobody on this side of the discussion has even come close to making a statement that would

lead one to believe we have a low opinion of Muslims in general. DON\'T EVEN GO THERE!

bjf

03-11-2004, 08:15 PM

Ash, did I say that to

you, or did I say that to OCP?

OCP didn\'t have any problems with it.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

Yep, they

are not screwing around. Keep on using the military and intelligence to remove the nutcases. But do you think we

can just exteriminate them? Obviously not. We have to improve our relations with the Muslim community, THE

MODERATES. It is too bad you have such a low opinion of muslims in general, but perhaps I am misunderstanding you.

<hr /></blockquote>

Nope, you understand exactly what I am saying. Islam is dangerous

to ALL the peace loving nations in the world!

<hr /></blockquote>

Nighty Night!

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

OCP

03-11-2004, 09:27 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

1) You

know little about Muslims.

2) How many Muslims do you personally know?

3) I suspect the answer is NONE, so how

would you know if they are good people or not?

<hr /></blockquote>

LOL!

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

<blockquote>Quote:<hr

/>
<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
Maybe we should have appeased Hitler

<hr

/></blockquote>

We tried.....it did not work then either.

<hr /></blockquote>

I didn\'t say this, just for the record.

OCP, I am done arguing.

<hr

/></blockquote>

While you are LOL innocent people are dying because people like you refuse

to kick the Islam a$$ completely into submission!

OCP

03-11-2004, 09:29 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
Ash, did I say that to you, or did I say that to OCP?

OCP didn\'t have

any problems with it.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

Yep, they are not screwing around. Keep on using the military and

intelligence to remove the nutcases. But do you think we can just exteriminate them? Obviously not. We have to

improve our relations with the Muslim community, THE MODERATES. It is too bad you have such a low opinion of

muslims in general, but perhaps I am misunderstanding you.

<hr /></blockquote>

Nope,

you understand exactly what I am saying. Islam is dangerous to ALL the peace loving nations in the world!

<hr

/></blockquote>

Nighty Night! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

<hr

/></blockquote>

In this case bjf is correct.

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Ash

03-11-2004, 10:14 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
Ash, did I say that to you, or did I say that to OCP?

OCP didn\'t have

any problems with it.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

Yep, they are not screwing around. Keep on using the military and

intelligence to remove the nutcases. But do you think we can just exteriminate them? Obviously not. We have to

improve our relations with the Muslim community, THE MODERATES. It is too bad you have such a low opinion of

muslims in general, but perhaps I am misunderstanding you.

<hr /></blockquote>

Nope,

you understand exactly what I am saying. Islam is dangerous to ALL the peace loving nations in the world!

<hr

/></blockquote>

Nighty Night! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

<hr

/></blockquote>

I have no idea who you were addressing it to.

There is a big difference

between the world of Islam and the Muslim world. Keep in mind that the vast majority of Muslims can\'t and

don\'t read and don\'t know anything about their religion. The majority of true islamists get their teaching

from those who do and can read and they are taught from the Koran and the Hadif. Unlike most Muslims you, bjf, are

at least able to read. Go out and buy a used copy of the Koran. Take a few days to read it and come back here and

post your thoughts. Tell us how many passages you find that mention brotherly love, mercy and compassion for your

neighbor. Peace and world peace are mentioned in the Koran but are gained only after the great Jihad and the

submission of the world, by the sword, to allah. That is the PEACE OF ISLAM bjf. Don\'t take my word for it. Read

their book. Get your head out of your a** and do some work. As passionate as you seem to be about 911 do you not

think you owe it to those who were murdered to find out EXACTALLY WHY they were murdered? Until you actually read

something of substance on the subject your just a child pissing in my face about a bunch of things you know nothing

about. Uneducated and uninformed people like yourself are just as dangerous as the Terrorists. You make uninformed

stupid decisions based on your emotions and the way you \"feel\" about things. Grow up, get informed and get

pissed off about what happened on 911 instead of pissing your pants about it.

And thanks for the Nighty Night.

That was sweet!

franki

03-12-2004, 12:15 AM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
It is too bad you have such a low opinion of muslims in general, but perhaps

I am misunderstanding you.

<hr /></blockquote>

\"misunderstanding you\" would be

an understatement bjf. Nobody on this side of the discussion has even come close to making a statement that would

lead one to believe we have a low opinion of Muslims in general. DON\'T EVEN GO THERE!

<hr

/></blockquote>

OCP did. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Ash

03-12-2004, 12:33 AM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
It is too bad you have such a low opinion of muslims

in general, but perhaps I am misunderstanding you.

<hr /></blockquote>

\"misunderstanding you\" would be an understatement bjf. Nobody on this side of the discussion has even come

close to making a statement that would lead one to believe we have a low opinion of Muslims in general. DON\'T

EVEN GO THERE!

<hr /></blockquote>

OCP did.

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

<hr /></blockquote>

No doubt OCP

temporarily lost his head in the heat of the debate.

belgareth

03-12-2004, 01:15 AM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
I\'ll agree that we need to leave the muslim world to run itself, stop

interfering with their way of life and government.

<hr /></blockquote>

Only when

they stop interferring with our way of life and the Israeli way of life. These people are the absolute scum of the

earth and they need to be treated that way.

<hr /></blockquote>

So long as we agree

that we are talking about the extremists. Most muslims do not participate in the senseless killings and only want to

live in peace. The people who attacked us, who attack the jewish and who attacked innocent people in Spain have

forfetted any right to life or peace.

DZorro

03-12-2004, 01:57 AM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
The muslim community aren\'t robots who just go

doing whatever their book tells them to.

There are plenty of muslims who do want peace.

<hr

/></blockquote>

Obvios you do not know much about muslims at all.
If you do, can you even

tell me witch ones are the ones who wants peace ???

I live in the netherlands and a couple of months ago a muslim

boy killed his teacher just because he offended his honer, what so peacefull about muslim now hey ???
their way of

life differs so much from us that they suppress their own females over their because of some bullshit honer thing,

the diffrent with them and us are they use violence to get their point across, we use diplomattic cause to get our

point accross.

DZorro,

Icarus

03-12-2004, 02:35 AM

I blame the

parents.

Also... um... the schools.

And the government too.

Got a cliche I can borrow?

Steve

DrSmellThis

03-12-2004, 02:41 AM

Making concessions

isn\'t the point. We just need a policy of integrity with the Muslim world (e.g., Palestine/Israel) to take the

wind out of the sails of those who reason and are somewhere short of extreme. Fuc_k what terrorists want or don\'t

want. With that integrity in place, we can rest assured we have minimized the controllable, semi-reasoned violence,

and should \"then\" turn to visciously exterminating those idiots who intend and try to do us in: \"Maybe I\'m

accidentally conceding to you \"alpha idiots\" on this point, but you sure ain\'t gonna be around to enjoy it

long.\" We don\'t even need to hate them to kill them. We can just think pragmatically about it.

For Bush

it\'s either black or white: badass/pussy, enemy/friend. He and countless others like him, don\'t get the third

way. This is literally small thinking.

When you\'re powerful, when you\'re big daddy, you have the power to

get away with being \"good\". I say sit down with Bin Laden and all of \'em, with the purpose of understanding

everything about their side and achieving great communication both ways on it, regardless of the possibility of

agreement. Then we say that \"this part is a legit point, and BECAUSE we\'re badasses w are going to give you

this at the same time that we\'re exterminating you when you don\'t respond to the sheer niceness of it. It\'s

not FOR you, after all; it\'s for the whole big world out there.\" This emphatically is NOT a pussy approach. It

is being the big daddy in my book. It\'s not concessions vs. not. It\'s HOW we do whatever mix of either/both

our integrity demands we do.

We can be strong and alpha without losing our freedom to do the right thing, in

other words. If we lose that freedom for fear of being pussies, we are even more enslaved to terrorists, and are

just kidding ourselves into believing we are \"alpha.\"

We needn\'t be so pessimistic about living on a

planet with Muslims! I mean, their saints and scriptures have dreadful things in them, but if you want nasty unjust

violence, read your own Bible for chrissakes; including the books of Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy. Christians

can read repulsive things in the letters of Paul. Scriptures of every religion, unfortunately, have things in them

which, when taken literally, would lead some to dreadful acts that typical people would never condone. It is

possible to read scriptures as stories with lessons and metaphors, as do most scholars, but this idea makes

fundamentalists of all stripes very nervous and angry. They can\'t process it to where it\'s OK.

We live in a

\"Jerry Springer world\", full of arrogant idiots incapable of seeing the big picture. It sucks. This is why

violence among consenting apes is necessary for the time being.

But maybe we can ratchet up the

sophistication of our international relations a notch, domesticated apes that we are.

bundyburger

03-12-2004, 02:41 AM

I like Aladdin.

He\'s a good kid. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

belgareth

03-12-2004, 04:19 AM

DST:

With a few

minor points, I agree completely. Hating muslims for being muslims would make us no different than those who attack

us for being Americans. But once somebody has attacked us, I agree with Exit. Merciless retribution against the

attackers, but only the attackers and not an entire society. I\'d rather live in peace and regard their religion

and skin color as irrelevencies, along with the societal rules within their own culture. We have no right to tell

others how to live their lives no more than they have the right to tell us how to live ours.

Elana

03-12-2004, 04:57 AM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
Hating muslims for being muslims would make us no

different than those who attack us for being Americans. But once somebody has attacked us, I agree with Exit.

Merciless retribution against the attackers, but only the attackers and not an entire society. I\'d rather live in

peace and regard their religion and skin color as irrelevencies, along with the societal rules within their own

culture. We have no right to tell others how to live their lives no more than they have the right to tell us how to

live ours.

<hr /></blockquote>

Pick me up because I just fainted.
Bel

and Exit agreed on something concerning politics. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

I completely agree with what you just said too, Bel.

Every word of it.

Elana

03-12-2004, 05:03 AM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
I like Aladdin. He\'s a good kid.

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

<hr /></blockquote>

He is dead. The

extremists blew him up because his magic carpet was too colorful and his movie was shown in American theaters.

belgareth

03-12-2004, 05:10 AM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

Pick me up because I just fainted.
Bel and

Exit agreed on something concerning politics. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

<hr /></blockquote>

Yeah, well, I\'m having an off day. My medications should kick in soon and I\'ll never make

that mistake again. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

CJ01

03-12-2004, 05:17 AM

The series of

blasts were not intended to be a series but one huge one.
The 3 trains which exploded were meant to arrive at the

big train station and explode simultaniously inside the station and remember this was during morning rush hour, the

place was packed! This means that hundreds more would have been ie were meant to be killed and injured!

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

This doesn´t sound much like ETAs style but more like Al

Qaeda but then ETA could have changed their tactics and adapted other methods. ??
But ETA is still not being ruled

out completely either.

I think if it were ETA they´d also be wanting to `claim credit´ somehow, so far they

have not.

As pointed out Spain is involved in Iraq and the atack was caried 3 days before elections take

place.
I personally have doubts that ETA would do this type of attack at this time.
As I said earlier I´m not

that well informed but if they´d wanted to get to the government and put pressure on them for their `cause´ going

after government people or institutions would be more like their usual style would it not? That kind makes more

sense to me anyway, as far as killing people can make sense that is but I´m thinking from ETAs perspective not

mine.

If ETA were responsible for this I bet they´ll loose even more basque supporters, any thoughts on this?

It´s happened before and they ended up becoming the separatist group they are

now.

[url=\"http://uk.news.yahoo.com/040312/325/eod1w.html\"]http://uk.news.yahoo.com/040312/325/eod1w.html[/ur

l]

Elana

03-12-2004, 05:28 AM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
I think if it were ETA they´d also be wanting to

`claim credit´ somehow, so far they have not.

<hr /></blockquote>

Yes, they probably

would have.

Elana

03-12-2004, 05:35 AM

Sudan Cries Rape:

Former captives recount the crime of boy rape in

Sudan

By Maria Sliwa

As he began speaking, Majok lowered his small coca-colored eyes and stared

intensely at the ground. It was the summer of 2002 and I had just flown thousands of miles deep into the war zone

of Sudan, the largest country in Africa, to interview former slaves.

Majok, then 12, tightly hugged his

long, bony legs, as we sat on the parched termite-infested ground. His ragged black shorts and ripped oversized

tee-shirt hung loosely on his spindly, dust covered body. He spoke of the way he was repeatedly raped and sodomized

by gangs of government soldiers, as I watched a continuous flow of tears pour down his precious adolescent face.

“They raped me,” Majok cried. “And when I tried to refuse they beat me.”

After he worked all day

taking care of his master’s cattle, Majok said he was often raped at night. He told me that his rapes were very

painful and he would rarely get a full night’s sleep.

He also spoke about the other slave boys he saw who

suffered his same fate. “I saw with my eyes other boys get raped,” Majok said. “He [the master] went to collect the

other boys and took them to that special place. [1] I saw them get raped.”

Yal, another adolescent, had

multiple scars on his arms and legs that he said came from the numerous bamboo beatings he received while in

captivity. He told me he saw three slaves killed and one whose arm was hacked off at the elbow because he tried to

run away. Yal also said he saw other boys raped by his master at his master’s house.

“At the time they

were raped they were crying the whole day,” Yal said. He then told me that he, too, was raped.

Since 1989,

Sudan’s extremist government, which is seated in the North, has been waging war against its diverse populace. The

battle is over land, oil, power and religion, by a government that is made up of some of Africa’s most aggressive

Arab Islamists, says Jesper Strudsholm, Africa correspondent for Politiken.

Animist and Christian black

Africans in Southern Sudan and the Nuba Mountains, have paid a price for refusing to submit to the North. Over 2

million have died as a result of this war, according to the U.S. Committee for Refugees. Often trapped in the fray,

are surviving victims the government soldiers capture as slaves. Human rights and local tribal groups estimate the

number of enslaved ranges from 14,000 to 200,000.

Though thousands still remain enslaved in the North, since

2003, the genocide and slave raiding in South Sudan and the Nuba Mountains has been suspended because of a

ceasefire. Amnesty International, however, reports that the government continues to attack black African Muslims in

Darfur, Western Sudan. According to Sudan expert, Eric Reeves, more than 1,000 people are dying every week in

Darfur because of government attacks, and “the numbers are sure to rise.” Amnesty also reports that surviving

victims have been raped and abducted by government soldiers during these raids. International law recognizes both

slavery and rape in the context of armed conflict as “crimes against humanity.”

As I questioned the former

slaves, village leaders, my translators, and many Sudanese immigrants living in the United States, it became

apparent that the tribal society in which Majok and the other slaves were born has strict taboos about

sex—especially male-to-male sex. I was told that although many villagers are aware that young male slaves are raped

while in captivity, it isn’t discussed because of the cultural prohibitions on all forms of male-to-male

sex—including rape.

In fact, male-to-male sex is considered such an egregious act in South Sudan that if

two males are found guilty of having consensual sex with each other they are killed by a firing squad, according to

Aleu Akechak Jok, an appellate court judge for the South. If a male is found guilty of raping a male or female,

only the perpetrator is shot to death, Jok said.

Jok’s description of Southern Sudan’s punishment for

consensual male-to-male sex is not too different from Sharia law in Northern Sudan, which imposes a death penalty on

those found guilty of homosexuality.

Village leaders told me that male rape victims, who are able to

escape slavery in the North and return to their villages, often consign themselves to a life filled with guilt,

while suffering silently and alone.

“This affects their minds badly,” Nhial Chan Nhial, a chief of one of

the villages in Gogrial County said with anger. “When they return to us, many of these boys have fits of crying,

mental problems, and are unable to marry later on in life.”

I worried about Majok and the other boys I had

interviewed. These boys were all adolescent and pre-adolescent ages. Many of them told me that their violent

experience of rape was their very first introduction to sex.

When captured, Ayiel, 14, said he was forced

to watch the gang-rape of his two sisters and says he too was raped numerous times. He described his experience as

“very painful,” and said he never saw his sisters again after that incident.

Perhaps the most graphic account of

male rape was given by Aleek. \"I watched my master and four Murahaleen [soldiers] violently gang-rape a young

Dinka slave boy,” Aleek said. “The boy was screaming and crying a lot. He was bleeding heavily, as he was raped

repeatedly. I watched his stomach expand with air with each violent penetration. The boy kept screaming. I was very

frightened, and knew I was likely next. Suddenly the boy\'s screams stopped as he went completely unconscious. My

master took him to the hospital. I never saw him again.\"

Many of the boys told me that in order to avoid rape

some of the male slaves tried to escape, but were quickly hunted down by their captors. They said that the

punishment for resisting rape is severe beatings, limb amputation or death.

Mohammed, a Bagarra nomad, who has

helped to free slaves, broke down in tears as he spoke. “What they are doing in the North is against the Koran,” he

explained. “Allah says that no man should be a slave to another man, but all should be a slave to Allah.” Mohammed

said that as a Muslim he was heartbroken the extremists have perverted his religion into a political weapon to

torture and oppress people.

When I arrived in Sudan, Ngong -- one in a group of five former female slaves that

I interviewed -- told me that children were raped while in captivity.

“Yes, I saw with my eyes them raped,

boys and girls,” Ngong said.

Though I knew about the rape of slave girls, I did not know this could also

be happening to boys. I decided to investigate this further when two females from the same group said they had seen

slave boys taken away at night to the “special place” for rape.

I interviewed a total of 15 male slaves, for

one to two hours each. Six of the boys interviewed said they were raped and the majority of these six said they

were eyewitnesses to other boys being raped. Most of these six boys said they were raped numerous times, by more

than one perpetrator. Some of the boys gave the full names and the home towns of the men they said had raped them.

Though five in this group of 15 boys said they were not raped, they did say they were either sexually

harassed or were eyewitnesses to other slave boys being raped. Only four of the 15 boys interviewed said they were

not raped or sexually harassed, and were not eyewitnesses to the rape of other boys. All of the boys said they were

never sexually abused or raped prior to their enslavement.

In 2004, the rape of boy slaves is not unique

to young Sudanese males, as recently exposed in a “CNN Presents” documentary “Easy Prey: Inside the Child Sex

Trade.” Sadly, the ugly arm of slavery reaches far beyond Sudan and shockingly touches every continent except

Antarctica. Slavery expert Kevin Bales of Free the Slaves (FreeTheSlaves.net) says there are approximately 27

million slaves worldwide. To date, however, there has been no comprehensive report on how many male slaves have been

traumatized by rape.

Maria Sliwa, founder of Freedom Now News (FreeWorldNow.com), often lectures on

slavery and has compiled recorded interviews on slave boy rape, which she conducted while in Sudan and is preparing

for publication.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[1]

The “special place” was described to me by former slaves as a clearing in the bush where slaves were usually taken

by their captors for rape.

Elana

03-12-2004, 05:41 AM

The reason I posted the above article is to show how they treat THEIR

OWN PEOPLE. How should these little children APPEASE them to not be the victims of rape and sodamy?

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif

CJ01

03-12-2004, 06:55 AM

Stuff like that just makes me sick

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gifAs does what´s going on in the Congo

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif
But our society isn´t that much better either. Anyone else been

following the Marc Dutroux case?

Problem is we can´t go to other cultures of other religions and tell them

they´re wrong and stuff when so much sh*t and violence and injustice is happening on our very own turfs!

Kari

03-12-2004, 07:01 AM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
The muslim community aren\'t robots who just go doing whatever their book

tells them to.

There are plenty of muslims who do want peace.

<hr /></blockquote>

True. Islam is said to be the fastest growing religion, in the world. We have HUGE communities

in Orange County, and in Michigan. Mosques have \"adopted\" the freeways around Glendale and Pasadena.

That\'s millions of people. Maybe tens of millions. We don\'t have millions of fundie terrorists, in the

U.S.

Just my two cents, but I don\'t think it\'s fair to characterize an entire religion, by the actions of

some fringies.

Kari

03-12-2004, 07:02 AM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
I like

Aladdin. He\'s a good kid. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

<hr /></blockquote>

He is dead. The extremists blew him up because his magic carpet was too colorful and his movie

was shown in American theaters.

<hr /></blockquote>

Not only that... he may have

been French. Most of the 1001 Nights tales were actually 18th c. French.

Kari

03-12-2004, 07:06 AM

That\'s political, Elana.

I\'ve read the Koran (and the Bible,

and the Talmud). It specifically forbids rape.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
Sudan Cries Rape:

Former captives recount the crime of boy rape in Sudan

By Maria Sliwa

As he began speaking, Majok lowered his small coca-colored eyes and stared intensely

at the ground. It was the summer of 2002 and I had just flown thousands of miles deep into the war zone of Sudan,

the largest country in Africa, to interview former slaves.

Majok, then 12, tightly hugged his long, bony

legs, as we sat on the parched termite-infested ground. His ragged black shorts and ripped oversized tee-shirt hung

loosely on his spindly, dust covered body. He spoke of the way he was repeatedly raped and sodomized by gangs of

government soldiers, as I watched a continuous flow of tears pour down his precious adolescent face.

“They raped me,” Majok cried. “And when I tried to refuse they beat me.”

After he worked all day taking

care of his master’s cattle, Majok said he was often raped at night. He told me that his rapes were very painful

and he would rarely get a full night’s sleep.

He also spoke about the other slave boys he saw who suffered

his same fate. “I saw with my eyes other boys get raped,” Majok said. “He [the master] went to collect the other

boys and took them to that special place. [1] I saw them get raped.”

Yal, another adolescent, had multiple

scars on his arms and legs that he said came from the numerous bamboo beatings he received while in captivity. He

told me he saw three slaves killed and one whose arm was hacked off at the elbow because he tried to run away. Yal

also said he saw other boys raped by his master at his master’s house.

“At the time they were raped they

were crying the whole day,” Yal said. He then told me that he, too, was raped.

Since 1989, Sudan’s

extremist government, which is seated in the North, has been waging war against its diverse populace. The battle is

over land, oil, power and religion, by a government that is made up of some of Africa’s most aggressive Arab

Islamists, says Jesper Strudsholm, Africa correspondent for Politiken.

Animist and Christian black

Africans in Southern Sudan and the Nuba Mountains, have paid a price for refusing to submit to the North. Over 2

million have died as a result of this war, according to the U.S. Committee for Refugees. Often trapped in the fray,

are surviving victims the government soldiers capture as slaves. Human rights and local tribal groups estimate the

number of enslaved ranges from 14,000 to 200,000.

Though thousands still remain enslaved in the North, since

2003, the genocide and slave raiding in South Sudan and the Nuba Mountains has been suspended because of a

ceasefire. Amnesty International, however, reports that the government continues to attack black African Muslims in

Darfur, Western Sudan. According to Sudan expert, Eric Reeves, more than 1,000 people are dying every week in

Darfur because of government attacks, and “the numbers are sure to rise.” Amnesty also reports that surviving

victims have been raped and abducted by government soldiers during these raids. International law recognizes both

slavery and rape in the context of armed conflict as “crimes against humanity.”

As I questioned the former

slaves, village leaders, my translators, and many Sudanese immigrants living in the United States, it became

apparent that the tribal society in which Majok and the other slaves were born has strict taboos about

sex—especially male-to-male sex. I was told that although many villagers are aware that young male slaves are raped

while in captivity, it isn’t discussed because of the cultural prohibitions on all forms of male-to-male

sex—including rape.

In fact, male-to-male sex is considered such an egregious act in South Sudan that if

two males are found guilty of having consensual sex with each other they are killed by a firing squad, according to

Aleu Akechak Jok, an appellate court judge for the South. If a male is found guilty of raping a male or female,

only the perpetrator is shot to death, Jok said.

Jok’s description of Southern Sudan’s punishment for

consensual male-to-male sex is not too different from Sharia law in Northern Sudan, which imposes a death penalty on

those found guilty of homosexuality.

Village leaders told me that male rape victims, who are able to

escape slavery in the North and return to their villages, often consign themselves to a life filled with guilt,

while suffering silently and alone.

“This affects their minds badly,” Nhial Chan Nhial, a chief of one of

the villages in Gogrial County said with anger. “When they return to us, many of these boys have fits of crying,

mental problems, and are unable to marry later on in life.”

I worried about Majok and the other boys I had

interviewed. These boys were all adolescent and pre-adolescent ages. Many of them told me that their violent

experience of rape was their very first introduction to sex.

When captured, Ayiel, 14, said he was forced

to watch the gang-rape of his two sisters and says he too was raped numerous times. He described his experience as

“very painful,” and said he never saw his sisters again after that incident.

Perhaps the most graphic account of

male rape was given by Aleek. \"I watched my master and four Murahaleen [soldiers] violently gang-rape a young

Dinka slave boy,” Aleek said. “The boy was screaming and crying a lot. He was bleeding heavily, as he was raped

repeatedly. I watched his stomach expand with air with each violent penetration. The boy kept screaming. I was very

frightened, and knew I was likely next. Suddenly the boy\'s screams stopped as he went completely unconscious. My

master took him to the hospital. I never saw him again.\"

Many of the boys told me that in order to avoid rape

some of the male slaves tried to escape, but were quickly hunted down by their captors. They said that the

punishment for resisting rape is severe beatings, limb amputation or death.

Mohammed, a Bagarra nomad, who has

helped to free slaves, broke down in tears as he spoke. “What they are doing in the North is against the Koran,” he

explained. “Allah says that no man should be a slave to another man, but all should be a slave to Allah.” Mohammed

said that as a Muslim he was heartbroken the extremists have perverted his religion into a political weapon to

torture and oppress people.

When I arrived in Sudan, Ngong -- one in a group of five former female slaves that

I interviewed -- told me that children were raped while in captivity.

“Yes, I saw with my eyes them raped,

boys and girls,” Ngong said.

Though I knew about the rape of slave girls, I did not know this could also

be happening to boys. I decided to investigate this further when two females from the same group said they had seen

slave boys taken away at night to the “special place” for rape.

I interviewed a total of 15 male slaves, for

one to two hours each. Six of the boys interviewed said they were raped and the majority of these six said they

were eyewitnesses to other boys being raped. Most of these six boys said they were raped numerous times, by more

than one perpetrator. Some of the boys gave the full names and the home towns of the men they said had raped them.

Though five in this group of 15 boys said they were not raped, they did say they were either sexually

harassed or were eyewitnesses to other slave boys being raped. Only four of the 15 boys interviewed said they were

not raped or sexually harassed, and were not eyewitnesses to the rape of other boys. All of the boys said they were

never sexually abused or raped prior to their enslavement.

In 2004, the rape of boy slaves is not unique

to young Sudanese males, as recently exposed in a “CNN Presents” documentary “Easy Prey: Inside the Child Sex

Trade.” Sadly, the ugly arm of slavery reaches far beyond Sudan and shockingly touches every continent except

Antarctica. Slavery expert Kevin Bales of Free the Slaves (FreeTheSlaves.net) says there are approximately 27

million slaves worldwide. To date, however, there has been no comprehensive report on how many male slaves have been

traumatized by rape.

Maria Sliwa, founder of Freedom Now News (FreeWorldNow.com), often lectures on

slavery and has compiled recorded interviews on slave boy rape, which she conducted while in Sudan and is preparing

for publication.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[1]

The “special place” was described to me by former slaves as a clearing in the bush where slaves were usually taken

by their captors for rape.

<hr /></blockquote>

CJ01

03-12-2004, 07:08 AM

It´s not the religion

itself that´s bad. It´s what people do to abuse it - in the name of ----- . Christians are also guilty of the same

things, think of what women had to go through in our society. Women didn´t have rights for a very long time. And I

don´t mean to be sexist but responsible in practically all cases were and are men.....

EXIT63

03-12-2004, 07:13 AM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

Pick me up because I just fainted.
Bel and Exit agreed on something

concerning politics. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

<hr /></blockquote>

Yeah, well, I\'m having an off day. My medications should kick in soon and I\'ll never make

that mistake again. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

<hr /></blockquote>

Exit clutches his chest
<cough><choke><sputter>
MY PILLS!!! MY

PILLS!!! WHERE ARE MY PILLS!?!?

Yeah Doc, let\'s have a sit down with osama and friends. Maybe with the

right aromatherapy, they might come around.

They are very patient. Eventually we will lose. Not this year. Not

in ten years. But eventually. Remember, this stuff has been going for centuries. And they are very

patient.

And do you know why we\'ll lose?

Because Americans don\'t have the stomach for it. As soon

as people start dying. The bleeding hearts start crying. And the terrorists laugh at our weakness.

Do you know

what they understand? They understand the sword. They are willing to die for their cause. Are we?

Read some

history. Appeasement does not work and it never will. Prime minister Chamberlain appeased Hitler and proclaimed

\"Peace in our time\". It wasn\'t long after the German death machine rolled over Poland. And we all know what

happened after that. It didn\'t work then....and it ain\'t gonna work now.

You know what horrible crime was

committed by those commuters in Spain? The same crime committed by Americans on September eleventh.

They got

up in the morning...And they went to work.

Elana

03-12-2004, 07:23 AM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

That\'s political, Elana.

I\'ve read the Koran (and the Bible, and the Talmud). It specifically forbids

rape.

<hr /></blockquote>

My comments have zero to do with the Koran. I am talking

about what is going on with Islamic extremists in our world today. They rape and kill their own people yet some say

we should appease them? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Elana

03-12-2004, 07:25 AM

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/

2050014.stm (\"http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/2050014.stm\")

Elana

03-12-2004, 07:26 AM

A little paragraph for

those that don\'t wish to read the whole thing

<blockquote>Quote:<hr

/>
The bill\'s original draft states that those who renounce their faith should be put to death, and that

unmarried women who become pregnant - regardless of rape - should be whipped or stoned to death.

<hr

/></blockquote>

EXIT63

03-12-2004, 07:29 AM

Sounds reasonable.

Elana

03-12-2004, 07:31 AM

http://www.geocities.com/inquisitive79/rape.html (\"http://www.geocities.com/inquisitive79/rape.html\")

Kari

03-12-2004, 09:29 AM

Yes, that\'s horrible.

But, in the Koran, men and women are equally culpable in cases of adultery/fornication. I agree that that is not how

Sharia law is being APPLIED in some countries. But.... that\'s not what the holy book prescribes. Also, the

punishment is not stoning (per the book) it\'s divorce or \"confinement in houses.\"

What I\'m saying is,

that there are cultural superimpositions that \"reinterpret\" their prophet\'s teachings. Like Pakistan, Saudi

Arabia, and the Sudan. Unlike Lebanon, Syria and (urban) Egypt.

One of my friends is an anthropologist with UCLA

and USC. She gets sent to WCD, a few times a year, to educate the CIA in Islamic and Arab (not necessarily the same

thing) culture.

I learned a lot from her. Also, from the writings of feminist Islamic scholar (I forget her

first name) Mehrnissi.

I agree completely that criminals need punishment. Rape is a human rights crime, as is

any form of terrorism.

However, villifying any religion, especially becuse of cultural superimposition that is

NOT found in the law of the religion doesn\'t seem productive, to me.

BTW-- Folks, remember that the original

Muslim prophet, Muhammad, was married to a Christian (Maryam) and a Jew (Reyhana) as well as a few Muslims. This was

to encourage peace among the Abrahamics.

He was also somewhat feminist-- His favorite wife, Aisha, was a general

and a judge. His first wife (only wife, while she lived) was his employer.

Later on, things get distorted by

culture, and worse, by politics. It\'s happens to a lot of religions. You get old guys with political agendas

re-interpreting what their holy books say.

BTW-- I\'m not Muslim. I have no religion, at all.I just don\'t

care for stereotyping of any kind. I wouldn\'t like the old Shylock stereotypes about Jews, or the Appalachian

fundie stereotypes about Christians.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr

/>
[url=\"http://www.geocities.com/inquisitive79/rape.html\"]http://www.geocities.com/inquisitive79/rape.html[/ur

l]

<hr /></blockquote>

Kari

03-12-2004, 09:30 AM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
It´s not the religion itself that´s bad. It´s what people do to abuse it -

in the name of ----- . Christians are also guilty of the same things, think of what women had to go through in our

society. Women didn´t have rights for a very long time. And I don´t mean to be sexist but responsible in

practically all cases were and are men.....

<hr /></blockquote>

Exactly!

Kari

03-12-2004, 09:32 AM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
A little paragraph for those that don\'t wish to read the whole thing

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
The bill\'s original draft states that those who

renounce their faith should be put to death, and that unmarried women who become pregnant - regardless of rape -

should be whipped or stoned to death.

<hr /></blockquote>

<hr

/></blockquote>

And, that\'s JUST the problem..... these governments or cultures need to

return to Sharia law.... as per the Koran. What they are doing is in VIOLATION of the Koran.

Kari

03-12-2004, 09:40 AM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
That\'s political, Elana.

I\'ve read the

Koran (and the Bible, and the Talmud). It specifically forbids rape.

<hr /></blockquote>

My comments have zero to do with the Koran. I am talking about what is going on with Islamic extremists in our

world today. They rape and kill their own people yet some say we should appease them?

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

<hr /></blockquote>

REAL Muslims

follow the Koran, though.

I think we agree that extremists of ANY stripe need to be put down, if they are

committing crimes. Period.

Oh, and rape? Take off the equipment.

I also think we need to be careful of our

American foreign policy. We FUNDED a passel of these folks, including the Taliban, Saddam, and varieties of Al

Qaida. We have sometimes played both ends against the middle, in order to keep certain regions unstable. It\'s

about control of natural resources.

I pisses me off, seriously, that we put these folks into power (or, at least

give them the means to do damage), and then have to go to war. or take some other difficult action, to try to undo

the damage.

Elana

03-12-2004, 10:10 AM

I have not read the Koran, and I don\'t even attempt to quote from it. This is not about religion or

what the Koran says. I am talking about what is actually happening. Not what should happen or how things should be

interpreted. Everything I am talking about are things that have happened or are happening. I do not put down the

Islamic religion. I have nothing against peace loving Muslims. I am talking about a specific group of people that

are VERY dangerous and are enormous in numbers.

OCP

03-12-2004, 11:22 AM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr

/>
[url=\"http://www.geocities.com/inquisitive79/rape.html\"]http://www.geocities.com/inquisitive79/rape.html[/ur

l]

<hr /></blockquote>

Boggle /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

Kari

03-12-2004, 11:32 AM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
I have not read the Koran, and I

don\'t even attempt to quote from it. This is not about religion or what the Koran says. I am talking about what

is actually happening. Not what should happen or how things should be interpreted. Everything I am talking about are

things that have happened or are happening. I do not put down the Islamic religion. I have nothing against peace

loving Muslims. I am talking about a specific group of people that are VERY dangerous and are enormous in numbers.

<hr /></blockquote>

Then we agree perfectly.

Elana

03-12-2004, 11:48 AM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
I have not read the Koran, and I don\'t even attempt to quote from it. This

is not about religion or what the Koran says. I am talking about what is actually happening. Not what should happen

or how things should be interpreted. Everything I am talking about are things that have happened or are happening. I

do not put down the Islamic religion. I have nothing against peace loving Muslims. I am talking about a specific

group of people that are VERY dangerous and are enormous in numbers.

<hr /></blockquote>

Then we agree perfectly.

<hr /></blockquote>

Now let\'s go

get a Chocolate Martini /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Kari

03-12-2004, 12:03 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
I have not

read the Koran, and I don\'t even attempt to quote from it. This is not about religion or what the Koran says. I

am talking about what is actually happening. Not what should happen or how things should be interpreted. Everything

I am talking about are things that have happened or are happening. I do not put down the Islamic religion. I have

nothing against peace loving Muslims. I am talking about a specific group of people that are VERY dangerous and are

enormous in numbers.

<hr /></blockquote>

Then we agree perfectly.

<hr

/></blockquote>

Now let\'s go get a Chocolate Martini

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

<hr /></blockquote>

You\'re ON,

gorgeous! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

tallmacky

03-12-2004, 12:27 PM

The End! (\"http://www.triflux.com/mc/be/p-bears4.jpg\")

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Elana

03-12-2004, 12:28 PM

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

tallmacky

03-12-2004, 12:33 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

<hr /></blockquote>

I know, the

sad thing is acting like a Care Bear (\"http://www.triflux.com/mc/be/p-bears6.jpg\") does not help, Hamas

and the rest of muslim extremist still kill and HURT POOR CARE BEARS...being nice is not the way I guess? I wish it

was the end. poor dead Care Bears. sigh /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif

Kari

03-12-2004, 12:45 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

<hr

/></blockquote>

I know, the sad thing is acting like a

Care Bear (\"http://www.triflux.com/mc/be/p-bears6.jpg\") does not help, Hamas and the rest of muslim

extremist still kill and HURT POOR CARE BEARS...being nice is not the way I guess? I wish it was the end. poor dead

Care Bears. sigh /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif

<hr /></blockquote>

Care bears are people, too.

DrSmellThis

03-12-2004, 01:24 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
The series of blasts were not intended to be a

series but one huge one.
The 3 trains which exploded were meant to arrive at the big train station and explode

simultaniously inside the station and remember this was during morning rush hour, the place was packed! This means

that hundreds more would have been ie were meant to be killed and injured!

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

This doesn´t sound much like ETAs style but more like Al

Qaeda but then ETA could have changed their tactics and adapted other methods. ??
But ETA is still not being ruled

out completely either.

I think if it were ETA they´d also be wanting to `claim credit´ somehow, so far they

have not.

As pointed out Spain is involved in Iraq and the atack was caried 3 days before elections take

place.
I personally have doubts that ETA would do this type of attack at this time.
As I said earlier I´m not

that well informed but if they´d wanted to get to the government and put pressure on them for their `cause´ going

after government people or institutions would be more like their usual style would it not? That kind makes more

sense to me anyway, as far as killing people can make sense that is but I´m thinking from ETAs perspective not

mine.

If ETA were responsible for this I bet they´ll loose even more basque supporters, any thoughts on this?

It´s happened before and they ended up becoming the separatist group they are

now.

[url=\"http://uk.news.yahoo.com/040312/325/eod1w.html\"]http://uk.news.yahoo.com/040312/325/eod1w.html[/ur

l]

<hr /></blockquote>This is Al Quaeda\'s MO, with the coordinated, huge

attacks.

DrSmellThis

03-12-2004, 02:16 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
Yeah Doc, let\'s have a sit down with osama and

friends. Maybe with the right aromatherapy, they might come around.

They are very patient. Eventually we

will lose. Not this year. Not in ten years. But eventually. Remember, this stuff has been going for centuries.

And they are very patient.

And do you know why we\'ll lose?

Because Americans don\'t have

the stomach for it. As soon as people start dying. The bleeding hearts start crying. And the terrorists laugh at

our weakness.

Do you know what they understand? They understand the sword. They are willing to die for

their cause. Are we?

Read some history. Appeasement does not work and it never will. Prime minister

Chamberlain appeased Hitler and proclaimed \"Peace in our time\". It wasn\'t long after the German death

machine rolled over Poland. And we all know what happened after that. It didn\'t work then....and it ain\'t

gonna work now.

<hr /></blockquote>
At best, you have read me in a superficial,

stereotypical way. That\'s dissapointing from a fellow forum member. People with something to say don\'t have to

resort to painting someone\'s argument from a distance as some charicature (e.g., the aromatherapy mock) to make a

point. Because you shied away (Awwww! I can mock too, if you want to play that) from the actual points, you came

away with the \"appeasement\" concept even though I made it clear I wasn\'t talking about that. You have

unwittingly supported my point about too much black/white thinking, in fact, by demonstrating it yourself. We all

really need to start thinking and acting in a more sophisticated manner to solve this, and not limit ourselves to

the polar opposites of \"cro-magnon/pussy\"! When someone wants to enter into dialogue instead of comic book

rhetoric, I\'d be happy to respond in kind.

That \"don\'t have the stomach for it\" stuff is Bin

Laden\'s argument. So far he was wrong, and I don\'t know if even he believes it any more. Notice the bombs went

off in Spain, (I\'m not saying that\'s better) and not here. Every time we get attacked, a country or three gets

leveled, to put it simply. And we sure as hell won\'t get any more peaceful in response to any further attacks, at

this point. The world somehow senses this, I think. War is built into our culture very sturdily, thank you very

much. We do war extremely well when we get around to it. We still have to work very hard at peace. But if you want

to roll over and predict defeat, I won\'t stand in your way. Just remember, we\'ve been working at the freedom

thing for centuries now, too, since before we were an official country, and this work ain\'t about to end.

Americans are quite tenacious as well -- as tenacious as anyone in the Middle East. And when our backs are against

the wall, no one -- no one -- is more hugely violent and viscious. Hiroshima and Nagasaki, anyone? How about

the civil war? That was one hell of an ugly, close to home battle for freedom\'s sake, fought by our

great-grandparents. Since then we\'ve had seven wars, depending on how you count. We even do guerrila warfare very

well, at this point. Our Viet Nam soldiers had no trouble being viscious, even though half of them saw no point in

being there. Don\'t f_uck with us! Don\'t do it!! Extreme, large scale destruction of yourselves and everyone

you just might be linked with (e.g., 100,000 or so Iraquis) will certainly be the result.

Complexity

needs to be met with complexity, however! Moreover, the complexity has to reflect a simple, integrous, long term

vision and understanding. We need a leader with some huge balls, and a huge mind to go along with it. Dammit!

belgareth

03-12-2004, 02:36 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
We need a leader with some huge balls, and a huge

mind to go along with it. Dammit!

<hr /></blockquote>

Unfortunately, we

don\'t have one and none of the candidates appear any better.

DrSmellThis

03-12-2004, 02:54 PM

A mind is a

terrible thing. -- Dan Quayle

belgareth

03-12-2004, 03:14 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
A mind is a terrible thing. -- Dan Quayle

<hr

/></blockquote>

I recently purchased the book \"The Stupidest Things Said By

Politicians\" It\'s great for anything from a mild chuckle to a belly laugh. The actual quote is: \"The mind is

a terrible thing to lose. What a waste it is to lose ones mind-or not to have a mind. How true that is.\" Said

during a speech at a United Negro College Fund affair.

tallmacky

03-12-2004, 03:15 PM

http://www.xmission.com/~mwalker/DQ/ (\"http://www.xmission.com/~mwalker/DQ/\")

For you

quotaholics. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

bivonic

03-12-2004, 03:16 PM

I

have not read the whole thread so please excuse me if this has already been mentioned, not sure if anyone knew this

but the day those bombings took place was exactly 911 days after September 11, 2001 - sounds like Al Queda to me.

franki

03-12-2004, 03:18 PM

913, but it is pretty close.. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif

Kari

03-12-2004, 03:41 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
A mind is a terrible thing. -- Dan Quayle

<hr /></blockquote>

Didn\'t he he also say, \"The importance of bondage between parents and children cannot be

overestimated?\"

belgareth

03-12-2004, 03:43 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
A mind is a terrible thing. -- Dan Quayle

<hr /></blockquote>

Didn\'t he he also say, \"The importance of bondage between parents and children cannot

be overestimated?\"

<hr /></blockquote>

Yup. He probably has more quotes than

anybody else in that book. He also said that pollution isn\'t the problem. It\'s the impurities in the air and

water.

Kari

03-12-2004, 03:46 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr

/>
http://www.xmission.com/~mwalker/DQ/ (\"http://www.xmission.com/~mwalker/DQ/\")

For you

quotaholics. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

<hr /></blockquote>

I\'ll see your Quaylisms, and raise you a couple

Bushisms.<g>

http://politicalhumor.about.

com/library/blbushisms.htm (\"http://politicalhumor.about.com/library/blbushisms.htm\")

Ash

03-12-2004, 03:56 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
A mind is a terrible thing. -- Dan Quayle

<hr /></blockquote>

Can I get you a potatoe Dr.?

Ash

03-12-2004, 03:58 PM

Just before I started to

do some serious study on the reasons why Al Quida was doing their thing I was watching some news footage on TV

showing the typical mob scene of worked up Taliban in Afghanistan. Lots of dirt and dust and scruffy looking men

with brown stained fingers (no TP in Afghanistan) and towels wrapped around their heads. You\'ve all see the same

images. The ranting and chanting and very dark, nearly black spots where eyes should be on the faces of men with

hearts filled to the brim with hate and anger and murder. I had an epiphany while watching the footage play out. It

came to me in a flash. None of these people have ever had a puppy. Osama never had a puppy. For sure Yasser never

had one. They don\'t have many pets in those regions. We have our pets in the west. Pets are big in the far east

too but not in the middle east. About this time the bombing started in Afghanistan and it came to me that smart

bombs weren\'t the answer. Puppies were. Instead of dropping bombs we should have been dropping puppies. Golden

Retriever puppies to be specific. Nothing cuter or sweeter or more heart warming than a Golden Retriever puppy. It

would change everything. For the boy puppies we get little goggles and leather helmets. Little pink Burkas for the

girl puppies. Puppies don\'t weigh much so the parachutes wouldn\'t have to be very big and you can stuff a lot

of puppies inside a B-52. Even knowing what I know now about the reasons why Osama and his boys are doing what they

do I think this idea has merit.

EXIT63

03-12-2004, 03:59 PM

Guiliani in \'08

Mtnjim

03-12-2004, 04:05 PM

\"Golden Retriever

puppies to be specific. Nothing cuter or sweeter or more heart warming than a Golden Retriever puppy.\"

In that

part of the world:

Puppy, the other white meat\"

Elana

03-12-2004, 04:06 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
Guiliani in \'08

<hr /></blockquote>

I love that man! Nothing would stop me from voting for him.

Elana

03-12-2004, 04:08 PM

Leave the poor little

puppies out of this. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif

EXIT63

03-12-2004, 04:16 PM

Problem is those

taliban scumbags would shove sharp sticks up their butts and cook your sweet little puppies.

mmmmmmmmmm hot dogs.

Hmmm sharp sticks up their butts. Remind me to include that in the Exit Doctrine.

Icarus

03-12-2004, 05:57 PM

My silence. Your

Silence.My silence. Your Silence.My silence. Your Silence.My silence. Your Silence.My silence. Your Silence.My

silence. Your Silence.My silence. Your Silence.My silence. Your Silence.My silence. Your Silence.My silence.

Your Silence.My silence. Your Silence.My silence. Your Silence.My silence. Your Silence.My silence. Your

Silence.My silence. Your Silence.My silence. Your Silence.My silence. Your Silence.My silence. Your Silence.My

silence. Your Silence.My silence. Your Silence.My silence. Your Silence.My silence. Your Silence.My silence.

Your Silence.My silence. Your Silence.My silence. Your Silence.My silence. Your Silence.

bundyburger

03-12-2004, 10:51 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
My silence. Your Silence.My silence. Your

Silence.My silence. Your Silence.My silence. Your Silence.My silence. Your Silence.My silence. Your Silence.My

silence. Your Silence.My silence. Your Silence.My silence. Your Silence.My silence. Your Silence.My silence. Your

Silence.My silence. Your Silence.My silence. Your Silence.My silence. Your Silence.My silence. Your Silence.My

silence. Your Silence.My silence. Your Silence.My silence. Your Silence.My silence. Your Silence.My silence. Your

Silence.My silence. Your Silence.My silence. Your Silence.My silence. Your Silence.My silence. Your Silence.My

silence. Your Silence.My silence. Your Silence.

<hr /></blockquote>

Steve. You

have NO idea how that fukks with my obsessive compulsive dissorder.

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif
Could you please edit that post and add a space after every

\"Your silence.\" to even it up?? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

...and while your at it

change the s in all \"silence\"s to a lower-case one. Would much appreciate it.

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

franki

03-13-2004, 02:19 AM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
913, but it is pretty close..

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif

<hr /></blockquote>

i goofed... 912

or 911 days depending on how you count..

CJ01

03-13-2004, 02:37 AM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
I have not read the whole thread so please excuse

me if this has already been mentioned, not sure if anyone knew this but the day those bombings took place was

exactly 911 days after September 11, 2001 - sounds like Al Queda to me.

<hr /></blockquote> yes bivonic! gulp /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

911 - were they trying

to be witty or something /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif

DrSmellThis

03-13-2004, 03:15 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
Just before I started to do some serious study on

the reasons why Al Quida was doing their thing I was watching some news footage on TV showing the typical mob scene

of worked up Taliban in Afghanistan. Lots of dirt and dust and scruffy looking men with brown stained fingers (no TP

in Afghanistan) and towels wrapped around their heads. You\'ve all see the same images. The ranting and chanting

and very dark, nearly black spots where eyes should be on the faces of men with hearts filled to the brim with hate

and anger and murder. I had an epiphany while watching the footage play out. It came to me in a flash. None of these

people have ever had a puppy. Osama never had a puppy. For sure Yasser never had one. They don\'t have many pets

in those regions. We have our pets in the west. Pets are big in the far east too but not in the middle east. About

this time the bombing started in Afghanistan and it came to me that smart bombs weren\'t the answer. Puppies were.

Instead of dropping bombs we should have been dropping puppies. Golden Retriever puppies to be specific. Nothing

cuter or sweeter or more heart warming than a Golden Retriever puppy. It would change everything. For the boy

puppies we get little goggles and leather helmets. Little pink Burkas for the girl puppies. Puppies don\'t weigh

much so the parachutes wouldn\'t have to be very big and you can stuff a lot of puppies inside a B-52. Even

knowing what I know now about the reasons why Osama and his boys are doing what they do I think this idea has merit.

<hr /></blockquote>
The answer is a contingent of authentic Stankian diplomats!

Ash

03-13-2004, 09:05 PM

I don\'t think you

could out-STANK those guys Dr. Especially thems with those yellow-brown fingers. That\'s a whole different level

of STANK.

tallmacky

03-13-2004, 10:15 PM

I agree with

Ash.

Take it from the T-mack, The worst, crapiest smelling guy at love-scent. I didn\'t take a shower for 2

weeks and I am one perverted nasty guy, and you know what? I don\'t even come close to smelling as bad as many of

those Muslim Extremist, and I don\'t just mean behavior wise, I mean actual smell...These guys make it seem like I

smell as good as E after a warm hot oil bath, where as I smelled so foul that everytime I walked by someone they

would cough.....

If I could only smell that bad. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

DrSmellThis

03-14-2004, 01:14 AM

Once again I have

been shown the way by the great ash and Tallmacky! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif

Elana

03-14-2004, 12:26 PM

BTW...another bombing

in Israel today. Another innocent 11 people (so far) for them to add to their list.

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif

EXIT63

03-14-2004, 12:38 PM

Let\'s talk about it.

Elana

03-14-2004, 12:45 PM

It\'s pointless

because it is never ending. We go about our daily lives...they kill us.

EXIT63

03-14-2004, 12:47 PM

How bout we sing around

the campfire.

Kuum by ahhh my lord.
Kuum by ahhh.

Surely that will stop them.

Elana

03-14-2004, 12:50 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
How bout we sing around the campfire.

Kuum by

ahhh my lord.
Kuum by ahhh.

Surely that will stop them.

<hr /></blockquote>

That

and the fruit basket idea might work

EXIT63

03-14-2004, 12:52 PM

Yeah...now yer thinkin.

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

tallmacky

03-14-2004, 12:54 PM

You guys are

forgetting the Care Bears!

Oh yeah they even kill poor Care Bears....

nooooooo not bj.

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

franki

03-14-2004, 01:09 PM

It looks like the

bombing already has big effects in Spain. According to the polls at the moment, the socialist opposition won the

elections today in Spain. But, it\'s still very close. One of the main reasons may have been that they were always

against a spanish engagement in Iraq

CJ01

03-14-2004, 01:37 PM

It´s been finally made official this

morning that it was the bastard alquis. You guys know what that means though right? London´s next !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

CptKipling

03-14-2004, 03:07 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
Simply

put, there is only one way to handle somebody who attacks you and appeasement is not it.

<hr

/></blockquote>

Well, muslims and muslim extremists are two different parties. I agree

that it isa dangerous message to send if we just concede everything and give them what they want, but I am just

saying give them enough to where the anger isn\'t so great.

I\'m not willing to be a sacrificial lamb in

the ideal of don\'t bargain with terrorists.

<hr /></blockquote>

bjf

Your

replies to this thread really got my blood up! I\'ll try to be kind. You need to stop listening to NPR. Try

reading some books on the subject. Start with \"Tea with Terrorists\". Elana can give you some more titles. Stop

listening to left wing appeasement propaganda and find out who your enemy is and why he wants YOU dead. Here\'s

the long and the short of it. Do you believe in allah? Did you bend your knee to him in submission today? If you

didn\'t and aren\'t willing to then osama, taking his instructions from the Koran and the Hadif, wants you dead.

Below is a post I made to another Forum a few months back.

islam means \"submission\". Contrary to the swill

being feed to us by the media and our politicians, islam is NOT a religion of Peace. There are two books that are

the \"Hand books\" of islam. The koran, which most have heard of, and the Hadif, which most have not heard of.

Neither books have any reference to \"Peace\" in them at all. Both books expound the teachings of mohamed the

\"profit\", who, by all accounts, was a rather creepy little deformed white guy with a goitered neck who hated

Jews. According to these books, islam means \"submission, by sword, to the will of allah !! Submit to Allah or

die!!!!

According to mohamed and the \"books\" of islam there are two worlds! Dar el islam and Dar el Harb. Dar

el islam is the world belonging to islam and allah. Dar el Harb is everything else. According to allah, mohamed and

his books, everything which is not islam, i.e.. Dar el Harb, must die. Submit to allah and islam or die is the only

message in the books of islam. The Hadif is the handbook on how to make the world of Dar el Harb submit to allah and

islam. The Hadif is the book that osama bin laden and the \"True\" believers read and adhere to. The Hadif is

about 600 pages long and gets into great detail about how to convert, by the sword, Dar el Harb into Dar el islam.

Lie, cheat, steal and murder are it\'s main means of conversion.

The message of allah, mohamed and islam is

simple. You are either part of islam or you must die!!! It doesn\'t matter if you\'re a Christian or a Jew or a

Buddhist or an Aitheist; an American, a Frenchmen or if you\'re Chinese; if you\'re not islam and refuse to

\"submit\" to islam then you need to die. This is according to allah\'s \"Will\". The world of islam breaks

down into two groups. Good islamists and bad islamists. The bad islamist don\'t read and adhere to the book. The

good islamist do read and adhere to the book. It\'s kinda like nazi Germany. You had good nazi\'s and bad

nazi\'s. The good nazi\'s bought into the lies and took part in the murders. The bad nazi\'s were swept along

keeping their mouths shut lest they get sent to the camps as well.

I am not optimistic about the future. As long

as we have this \"head up the ass, politically correct\" , \"Can\'t we all just get along\" attitude toward

islam, we\'re F*CKED!!!!!

In the words of a rather infamous Brother. \"The time has come for each and every

one of you to decide. Brothers and Sisters, take 5 seconds to decide weather you want to be part of the problem or

part of the solution. 5 seconds is all you need.\"

Read some books bjf and take your 5 seconds!

Peace out

Bro.

Macky, can you name that Brother?

[and some other posts]

<hr /></blockquote>

You people really scare me sometimes.

Elana

03-14-2004, 03:11 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
You people really scare me sometimes.

<hr

/></blockquote> Only one or two of the posters scare me. The others are a comfort.

Elana

03-14-2004, 04:31 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
London´s next !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

<hr /></blockquote>

Yeah, nobody is safe. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif

EXIT63

03-14-2004, 04:47 PM

Yeah, we\'d better go run and

hide or the big tough terrorists might hurt us. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif

Ash

03-14-2004, 04:51 PM

So I scare you sometimes

Doc.?

It is written in the Koran that ALL JEWS, CHRISTIANS AND INFIDELS MUST BE CONVERTED TO ISLAM OR THEY MUST

DIE! When the Taliban took over Afghanistan they killed ALL THE JEWS, ALL THE CHRISTIANS AND ALL THE INFIDELS. The

Taliban were being very good Islamists. They followed the teachings and instructions of Mohamed, the Koran and the

Hadif to the letter. The only Christians and Jews and Infidels in Afghanistan today are members of the Coalition

army. The rest were murdered by the Taliban. Most had their throats cut. That\'s the preferred method as

instructed in the Hadif.

A lot of non-Islamic people world wide don\'t have any problems with the killing of

Jews and Christians. The thinking is that the world will be a better place without them and their bothersome little

religions. Maybe that\'s your thinking too Dr. Here\'s the problem. If you\'re not a Jew or a Christian or a

Muslim then by default you\'re an Infidel. That means they want to cut your throat too Dr., or blow you up in a

train station. But I\'m the one that scares you?

CJ01

03-15-2004, 09:06 AM

Spains new PM

Rodriguez has announced that he wants to withdraw spanish troops from Iraq by the beginning of this summer.

upsidedown

03-15-2004, 10:11 AM

Spain\'s voters have now just sent a message to terrorists. That message is that terrorism works.

DrSmellThis

03-15-2004, 11:26 AM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
So I scare you sometimes Doc.?

It is written in

the Koran that ALL JEWS, CHRISTIANS AND INFIDELS MUST BE CONVERTED TO ISLAM OR THEY MUST DIE! When the Taliban took

over Afghanistan they killed ALL THE JEWS, ALL THE CHRISTIANS AND ALL THE INFIDELS. The Taliban were being very good

Islamists. They followed the teachings and instructions of Mohamed, the Koran and the Hadif to the letter. The only

Christians and Jews and Infidels in Afghanistan today are members of the Coalition army. The rest were murdered by

the Taliban. Most had their throats cut. That\'s the preferred method as instructed in the Hadif.

A lot of

non-Islamic people world wide don\'t have any problems with the killing of Jews and Christians. The thinking is

that the world will be a better place without them and their bothersome little religions. Maybe that\'s your

thinking too Dr. Here\'s the problem. If you\'re not a Jew or a Christian or a Muslim then by default you\'re

an Infidel. That means they want to cut your throat too Dr., or blow you up in a train station. But I\'m the one

that scares you?

<hr /></blockquote>
That was Kipling who was scared by you.

Elana

03-15-2004, 11:41 AM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
Spain\'s voters have now just sent a message to

terrorists. That message is that terrorism works.

<hr /></blockquote>

Yep....I fear

England is next. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif
But yes...it appears that terrorism does work.

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif
That reaction was SHOCKING! That would NEVER have happened in the

USA! It would only have made us more determined to wipe these F$%kers off the face of the earth!

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif

CJ01

03-15-2004, 11:47 AM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
Spain\'s voters have now just sent a message to

terrorists. That message is that terrorism works.

<hr /></blockquote>
I disagree. It

was kind of time for a change anyway I reckon and the spanish want their troops back in any case. Aznar wouldn´t

have agreed to this.

I still have reservations about who did it really, as trange as it sounds.

hehehe I

hear Berlusconi is shaking in his boots a little /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

franki

03-15-2004, 12:21 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
That would NEVER have happened in the USA! It

would only have made us more determined to wipe these F$%kers off the face of the earth!

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif

<hr /></blockquote>

I wouldn\'t

be so sure about that..

Ash

03-15-2004, 12:21 PM

Sorry

Doc!!!

I have no idea how I managed to get confused although E\'s 32D\'s have been on my mind recently.

My

sincere apologies!

CJ01

03-15-2004, 12:43 PM

Things

don´t look too great for Bush and unless he pulls off a real coup, like catching osama´s a** he might be out too.

upsidedown

03-15-2004, 01:15 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

I disagree. It was kind of time for a change

anyway I reckon and the spanish want their troops back in any case. Aznar wouldn´t have agreed to this.

<hr

/></blockquote>

Well, from what I hear, according to the polls, the current government

was well on it\'s way to an easy victory just before the bombings, and then suddenly the voting turned around on

election day.

But, even if it was just time for a change, the terrorists are going to interpret this as an

indication that their \"terror\" worked and accomplished what they wanted. They will now be more emboldened to

continue killing innocent people thinking they will eventually get what they want.

OCP

03-15-2004, 04:29 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
Spain\'s voters have now just sent a message to terrorists. That message

is that terrorism works.

<hr /></blockquote>

Yep....I fear England is next.

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif
But yes...it appears that terrorism does work.

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif
That reaction was SHOCKING! That would NEVER have happened in the

USA! It would only have made us more determined to wipe these F$%kers off the face of the earth!

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif

<hr /></blockquote>

Thst is so

true, but the rest of the world does not understand us because that is how we think. You push us and we push back.

You push us twice and we kick your a$$. The rest of the world (except Israel) gets pushed a second time and the run

away and cry for mommy........especially the French. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

CJ01

03-16-2004, 09:49 AM

MADRID

(Reuters) - Spanish police are hunting Moroccan Muslim militants suspected of links to bombs that killed 201 people

on Madrid trains and propelled the opposition Socialists into power at a general election.

Local media said on

Tuesday police were looking for five fugitive Moroccans, part of a group of eight main Moroccan suspects.

Click to enlarge photo

Three are already in custody in connection with Spain\'s worst attack and the first

suspected al Qaeda-linked strike in the West since the September 11 strikes on the United States.

But

investigators cautioned against drawing any conclusions from the evidence gathered so far.

Click to enlarge

photo

The investigation \"is in its infancy. We have a long way to go,\" one law enforcement official

said.

Spanish police, experienced with Basque separatist attacks, are considered expert at bomb analysis but have

sought foreign help for what has become a complex international investigation.

Police from across Europe are to

convene in Madrid in coming days to share information on the probe, and Spain and Morocco already have exchanged

investigative teams.

Meanwhile U.S. investigators are assisting Spain with fingerprint and background checks on

suspects.

One of the three detained Moroccans has been named as Jamal Zougam. Police sources told Reuters bomb

survivors had identified him from photographs as having been at the crime scene but said they were treating witness

reports cautiously.

Legal sources said the bombers are believed to have left the country. However, police sources

said no international arrest warrants had been issued.

Investigators were also examining the remains of one of

the dead from Thursday\'s train blasts as a potential bomber.

The Moroccan line of investigation emerged at the

weekend when police arrested five suspects -- the three Moroccans and two Indians -- in their first

breakthrough.

El Pais newspaper said Zougam had connections with some of those arrested for last May\'s

bombings in Casablanca that killed 45 people, including 12 suicide bombers.

Friends described Zougam as a

\"modern Muslim\" who liked to wear good clothes. \"He\'s the kind of guy who would walk around in a Lacoste

T-shirt,\" Abdul, 28, who said he was friends with Zougam and had known him about seven years, told

Reuters.

Abdul works just a block away from the mobile telephone shop run by Zougam in Madrid\'s multi-racial

Lavapies district.

MISSING DYNAMITE

Police sources said they have determined the dynamite used to make the

bombs -- Goma 2 Eco, a gelatine explosive manufactured by the Spanish firm Union Espanola de Explosivos (UEE) -- was

not stolen in Spain nor went missing here.

Investigators have asked neighbouring countries, including Morocco, to

press their licensed distributors to see if they can pinpoint where the explosive came from.

An estimated 100 to

150 kg (220 to 330 pounds) were used to make the 13 bombs: ten that went off, two that were blown up in controlled

explosions, and one did not go off.

The unexploded bomb has been crucial to the case. About 12 kg of Goma 2 Eco

were packed into a sports bag and surrounded with screws and nails. The detonator, also made by UEE, was connected

to a mobile phone alarm.

CASABLANCA-MADRID LINKS

As well as the Moroccans, police were also looking for

Islamists of other nationalities who may have played a part in the attack, media and sources said. They are

suspected of being loosely related to Osama bin Laden\'s al Qaeda.

According to the investigation into al Qaeda

activities in Spain led by Spanish High Court Judge Baltasar Garzon, a 2001 search of Zougam\'s home in Madrid

turned up a propaganda videotape that showed Sala Eddin Benyaich operating as an Islamist fighter in Chechnya.

Benyaich later was arrested for a suspected connection to the Casablanca bombing.

Among the 1,668 wounded, 219

were still in hospital, eight fighting for their lives, health officials said. A 45-year-old woman died on Tuesday,

becoming the 201st victim.

Thursday\'s bombs, which authorities initially blamed on armed Basque separatists

ETA, revived popular anger at Prime Minister Jose Maria Aznar\'s support for the US-led Iraq war, helping incoming

Socialist Prime Minister Jose Luis Rodriguez Zapatero to a surprise victory.

CptKipling

03-16-2004, 12:55 PM

Damn strait terrorism works.

You know why? Because there are still bigots in society that claim to have the

simple answer, but are in fact as bad as the \"monsters\" they are slating. I\'m sure the avid followers of this

topic know the propaganda the terrorist feed potential recruits (most of the Arab world), if you don\'t, then here

it is. They say that Americans and their Allies are great oppressors, selfishly claiming what they want for

themselves, leaving whatever natives that happen to get in the way bleeding in ditches. Any more ideas about what

your \"damn the torpedoes, crush the bastards,\" attitude does? If you haven’t got it yet, it simply fuels this

propaganda.

Ash, I don\'t know you so I\'m not judging you as a person, but your \"knowledge\" of this

subject is surreal. I know many Muslims (I\'m sure you don\'t), some of whom are friends of mine, and I strongly

object to some of the race oriented talk being banded around here. The way some of you (not just Ash) are talking, a

few things seem apparent: a) you are racist, b) you are in favour of exactly what you are accusing the terrorists

of, spreading powerful negative propaganda about a race(!), with the aim of inciting fear and anger.

You claim

to know of the teachings of Islam, but did you know...

There are two Jihads in every Muslims life. First, the

\"battle\" with oneself to lead a good and honest life. The second, to fight if oppressed. Mohamed gave these to

his people, and I think they are pretty reasonable. Nothing you \"moral experts\" can disagree with either, I

doubt.

How many of you have actually met a Muslim? How many of you actually know enough to pass the judgment you

all seem so eager to give. Have you ever been to a Muslim country? Morocco? Egypt? No? They are the nicest, most

friendly people I have had the privilege to meet. What some people appear not to have realised is that no matter

where you go, you will always find idiots who oppose the status quo, and try to alter it in an idiotic way. It\'s

all a product of greed and power lust, and the lack of a proper education. Even in the west you get people stupid

enough to think violence is the way to solve problems (sometimes it\'s the desperate act of people trying to gain

attention from the government), and there is almost always a correlation to poor edumacation. But it vital to

recognise that on the social spectrum from chaos to utopia, you are always going to get trouble makers.

America

and its Allies do themselves no favours in the Middle East by fulfilling all of the angry locals\' expectations.

You can\'t play god; you can\'t just wade in with \"help\" and expectations and alien principles. The simple

matter is that the culture and society is different, and you can\'t impose \"modern\" society’s ideals onto them

in such a way. To some degree you have to let them duke it out for themselves, the most the west should be doing is

providing education and basic healthcare (barring a world encompassing disaster).

A little knowledge is a

dangerous thing. The reason some of you are saying the things you are is out of fear. But this is exactly what the

terrorists want, but it is very wrong to react by lashing out. Unlike Hitler, terrorism has no face, or nothing

tangible to attack. Even the terrorists have no country which they occupy, so there is nothing to invade. So you

have no armies to conquer, no nations to topple, but just a couple of angry people willing to kill a lot of people

without remorse. So what can we do? Well, you can try to hunt down these people, but not only does this prove to be

easier said than done, it doesn’t solve the underlying problem, people are disagreeing with the status quo. The

answer then, is to listen to the real people, the ones who are suffering that is, and try to fix it that way

(empower the people with education, again). That is the intelligent thing to do, and also the right thing to do. We

are dealing with human beings here.

OCP

03-16-2004, 01:18 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
Damn strait terrorism works.

You know why?

Because there are still bigots in society that claim to have the simple answer, but are in fact as bad as the

\"monsters\" they are slating. I\'m sure the avid followers of this topic know the propaganda the terrorist feed

potential recruits (most of the Arab world), if you don\'t, then here it is. They say that Americans and their

Allies are great oppressors, selfishly claiming what they want for themselves, leaving whatever natives that happen

to get in the way bleeding in ditches. Any more ideas about what your \"damn the torpedoes, crush the bastards,\"

attitude does? If you haven’t got it yet, it simply fuels this propaganda.

Ash, I don\'t know you so I\'m not

judging you as a person, but your \"knowledge\" of this subject is surreal. I know many Muslims (I\'m sure you

don\'t), some of whom are friends of mine, and I strongly object to some of the race oriented talk being banded

around here. The way some of you (not just Ash) are talking, a few things seem apparent: a) you are racist, b) you

are in favour of exactly what you are accusing the terrorists of, spreading powerful negative propaganda about a

race(!), with the aim of inciting fear and anger.

You claim to know of the teachings of Islam, but did you

know...

There are two Jihads in every Muslims life. First, the \"battle\" with oneself to lead a good and

honest life. The second, to fight if oppressed. Mohamed gave these to his people, and I think they are pretty

reasonable. Nothing you \"moral experts\" can disagree with either, I doubt.

How many of you have actually met

a Muslim? How many of you actually know enough to pass the judgment you all seem so eager to give. Have you ever

been to a Muslim country? Morocco? Egypt? No? They are the nicest, most friendly people I have had the privilege to

meet. What some people appear not to have realised is that no matter where you go, you will always find idiots who

oppose the status quo, and try to alter it in an idiotic way. It\'s all a product of greed and power lust, and the

lack of a proper education. Even in the west you get people stupid enough to think violence is the way to solve

problems (sometimes it\'s the desperate act of people trying to gain attention from the government), and there is

almost always a correlation to poor edumacation. But it vital to recognise that on the social spectrum from chaos to

utopia, you are always going to get trouble makers.

America and its Allies do themselves no favours in the Middle

East by fulfilling all of the angry locals\' expectations. You can\'t play god; you can\'t just wade in with

\"help\" and expectations and alien principles. The simple matter is that the culture and society is different,

and you can\'t impose \"modern\" society’s ideals onto them in such a way. To some degree you have to let them

duke it out for themselves, the most the west should be doing is providing education and basic healthcare (barring a

world encompassing disaster).

A little knowledge is a dangerous thing. The reason some of you are saying the

things you are is out of fear. But this is exactly what the terrorists want, but it is very wrong to react by

lashing out. Unlike Hitler, terrorism has no face, or nothing tangible to attack. Even the terrorists have no

country which they occupy, so there is nothing to invade. So you have no armies to conquer, no nations to topple,

but just a couple of angry people willing to kill a lot of people without remorse. So what can we do? Well, you can

try to hunt down these people, but not only does this prove to be easier said than done, it doesn’t solve the

underlying problem, people are disagreeing with the status quo. The answer then, is to listen to the real people,

the ones who are suffering that is, and try to fix it that way (empower the people with education, again). That is

the intelligent thing to do, and also the right thing to do. We are dealing with human beings here.

<hr

/></blockquote>

Wow! You actually believe this. I agree there are alot of very good

people in Egypt, Morrocco, etc, but if you really believe that Islam is not out to conquer the world the you will be

a causualty just like the rest of us. If you do not think that the Muslims want the destruction of Israel then you

are naive. They have tried twice to kick the Israelis into the ocean and they will try again. This is real history

not something I am making up. So, explain why your peace loving Muslims are constantly fighting with Israel inspite

of concessions by Israel. You can not explain this because it is counter to what you have explained above.

I am

not a racist and I am not a bigot, but I know that Isalm is out to remove anything that gets in the way of the

Muslims ruling the world.

Why do they hate the USA and the Western allies? Because we are the reason they have

not been able to remove the Jews from the face of the Earth.

Elana

03-16-2004, 01:34 PM

If

you were referring to me as one of the racists, then I will come clean....It is no secret. I hate Islamic

extremists. Have I ever met a Muslim? Sure, many of them. I met hundreds both here and in the Middle East including

Egypt and Jordan where I have spent a lot of time. Do I hate all Muslims? Of course not. Are there peace loving

Muslims? Tons of them, but here is the problem. They give themselves a bad rap when they refuse to speak out against

the extremists. How many did we see crying out to the public after 9/11 screaming to their own to stop the violence?

While many spoke against what happened to us, they still blamed us. It was still always something that we did

wrong. I can differentiate between good and evil, but if people don\'t speak out against monsters doing things in

the name of their religion then the rest of the world is going to put them all into the same category. That\'s a

shame but that\'s what happens when you don\'t speak out.

EXIT63

03-16-2004, 02:02 PM

Are

you callin me a racist?

Elana

03-16-2004, 02:16 PM

are

you talking to me? ARE YOU TALKING TO ME??? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

EXIT63

03-16-2004, 02:29 PM

ACHTUNG Heir Kipling! Get bak unt to zee mineshaft unt verke!!

SCHNELL!!!
SCHNELL!!!

is what they\'d be

sayin ta you if it wasn\'t for US.

belgareth

03-16-2004, 03:05 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
Damn strait terrorism works.

You know why?

Because there are still bigots in society that claim to have the simple answer, but are in fact as bad as the

\"monsters\" they are slating. I\'m sure the avid followers of this topic know the propaganda the terrorist feed

potential recruits (most of the Arab world), if you don\'t, then here it is. They say that Americans and their

Allies are great oppressors, selfishly claiming what they want for themselves, leaving whatever natives that happen

to get in the way bleeding in ditches. Any more ideas about what your \"damn the torpedoes, crush the bastards,\"

attitude does? If you haven?t got it yet, it simply fuels this propaganda.

Ash, I don\'t know you so I\'m not

judging you as a person, but your \"knowledge\" of this subject is surreal. I know many Muslims (I\'m sure you

don\'t), some of whom are friends of mine, and I strongly object to some of the race oriented talk being banded

around here. The way some of you (not just Ash) are talking, a few things seem apparent: a) you are racist, b) you

are in favour of exactly what you are accusing the terrorists of, spreading powerful negative propaganda about a

race(!), with the aim of inciting fear and anger.

You claim to know of the teachings of Islam, but did you

know...

There are two Jihads in every Muslims life. First, the \"battle\" with oneself to lead a good and

honest life. The second, to fight if oppressed. Mohamed gave these to his people, and I think they are pretty

reasonable. Nothing you \"moral experts\" can disagree with either, I doubt.

How many of you have actually met

a Muslim? How many of you actually know enough to pass the judgment you all seem so eager to give. Have you ever

been to a Muslim country? Morocco? Egypt? No? They are the nicest, most friendly people I have had the privilege to

meet. What some people appear not to have realised is that no matter where you go, you will always find idiots who

oppose the status quo, and try to alter it in an idiotic way. It\'s all a product of greed and power lust, and the

lack of a proper education. Even in the west you get people stupid enough to think violence is the way to solve

problems (sometimes it\'s the desperate act of people trying to gain attention from the government), and there is

almost always a correlation to poor edumacation. But it vital to recognise that on the social spectrum from chaos to

utopia, you are always going to get trouble makers.

America and its Allies do themselves no favours in the Middle

East by fulfilling all of the angry locals\' expectations. You can\'t play god; you can\'t just wade in with

\"help\" and expectations and alien principles. The simple matter is that the culture and society is different,

and you can\'t impose \"modern\" society?s ideals onto them in such a way. To some degree you have to let them

duke it out for themselves, the most the west should be doing is providing education and basic healthcare (barring a

world encompassing disaster).

A little knowledge is a dangerous thing. The reason some of you are saying the

things you are is out of fear. But this is exactly what the terrorists want, but it is very wrong to react by

lashing out. Unlike Hitler, terrorism has no face, or nothing tangible to attack. Even the terrorists have no

country which they occupy, so there is nothing to invade. So you have no armies to conquer, no nations to topple,

but just a couple of angry people willing to kill a lot of people without remorse. So what can we do? Well, you can

try to hunt down these people, but not only does this prove to be easier said than done, it doesn?t solve the

underlying problem, people are disagreeing with the status quo. The answer then, is to listen to the real people,

the ones who are suffering that is, and try to fix it that way (empower the people with education, again). That is

the intelligent thing to do, and also the right thing to do. We are dealing with human beings here.

<hr

/></blockquote>

Well said but I disagree on a couple points. You cannot allow anybody who

attacks you to get away with it. Eliminating the leadership through capturing and putting on trial when possible or

killing if there is no other alternative works. It sends a message to those who would attack us that it\'s

unhealthy for the leadership, the ones sending others out to do their dirty work. Bin Laden doesn\'t build the

bombs or carry them to where they can kill innocent people. He directs others to do it. So long as leaders like him

are free, they will continue to send others out to kill people.

You can call people racist but what are you

really accomplishing with that? It\'s a label you\'ve applied to people that you haven\'t taken the time to

fully understand. Using the word to describe some of the people who\'ve spoken out here makees you no different

than them or the relegous zealots who cry out for our blood. Try learning to understand those at home too. Every

perspective has some validity to it, no matter how much you dislike their words.

Elana

03-16-2004, 03:08 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
You cannot allow anybody who attacks you to get

away with it. Eliminating the leadership through capturing and putting on trial when possible or killing if there is

no other alternative works. It sends a message to those who would attack us that it\'s unhealthy for the

leadership, the ones sending others out to do their dirty work. Bin Laden doesn\'t build the bombs or carry them

to where they can kill innocent people. He directs others to do it. So long as leaders like him are free, they will

continue to send others out to kill people.

You can call people racist but what are you really accomplishing with

that? It\'s a label you\'ve applied to people that you haven\'t taken the time to fully understand. Using the

word to describe some of the people who\'ve spoken out here makees you no different than them or the relegous

zealots who cry out for our blood. Try learning to understand those at home too. Every perspective has some validity

to it, no matter how much you dislike their words.

<hr /></blockquote> Bel...someone

needs to pick up that medication for you. What is happening?

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Very good post!

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

DrSmellThis

03-16-2004, 03:33 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
Wow! You actually believe this. I agree there are

alot of very good people in Egypt, Morrocco, etc, but if you really believe that Islam is not out to conquer the

world the you will be a causualty just like the rest of us. If you do not think that the Muslims want the

destruction of Israel then you are naive. They have tried twice to kick the Israelis into the ocean and they will

try again. This is real history not something I am making up. So, explain why your peace loving Muslims are

constantly fighting with Israel inspite of concessions by Israel. You can not explain this because it is counter to

what you have explained above.

I am not a racist and I am not a bigot, but I know that Isalm is out to remove

anything that gets in the way of the Muslims ruling the world.

Why do they hate the USA and the Western

allies? Because we are the reason they have not been able to remove the Jews from the face of the Earth.

<hr

/></blockquote>

(Note: This post is meant to be read along with my other long one,

above, which would address many of the expected objections to this one.)

Wow. You may not be racist, but you

sure could use a little introspection and thought. Look at what you just wrote! You continue to unabashedly

lump all Muslims into one category and entity of an enemy bent on taking over the world and exterminating all

dissenters. Because absolute religious fundamentalism has failed, and must fail; this turns out to be a false

picture. As I noted in my above post, it would be foolish to look at some shocking phrase in the Koran, Bible (which

is just as bad, like it or not. I gave some biblical references above.) or any other religious text as determining

most of the actions of most people in that religion. This also applies to hearing some fundamentalists quote such a

phrase. Almost no one actively involved in negotiating a treaty between Israel and Palestine wants to deny

Israel\'s right to exist. Recent proposals were bad for other reasons.

If your picture was accurate, of

course, the logical answer would be to exterminate all Muslims! But that is just the logical version of your

position, which I suspect is really emotional at base. If it weren\'t for your blessed lack of logic, in fact, you

would be thinking in a Hitlerian manner, which would be racist.

As I said in my large post above, black and

white thinking is exactly what we don\'t need if we want to solve things. It is the cause of all our

problems, on the process level. This is as true as facts can get. Most people just haven\'t learned to think in

processes, so they don\'t recognize this fact. But it is true.

Where is the positive solution in \"kill or

be killed?\"

What is the answer? I really believe I know the general structure of it, but I have too much of

a checkered past present and future of sex, drugs, and rawk to get elected president!

The United states

needs to move from being a bully to the world (No, we don\'t just peacibly mind our own business all the

time, especially our corporations; as much as I wish we did) to being a parent to the world.

This

will be a mature position of even greater strength and leadership! Under this scenario, good parenting

techniques can and should be modified to apply to troublesome countries/entities, with much profit! I can

guarantee this approach would work, because I know the psychology behind it, as a child psychologist. The logic

transfers perfectly, even down to highly specific diplomacy techniques. It comes mostly from behavior management

theory, but a more humanized version.

The best way to get your kid to behave is not always kicking the

[censored] out of him, even if violence is his problem. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif But

consistent consequences, communication, problem solving, understanding, and strong discipline are nevertheless key.

Good parenting techniques work with all children, regardless of how disturbed they are. I\'ve worked with

the worst of them. Again, we just need a more sophisticated approach.

\"Kill THEM ALL or be killed by

THEM!\" may be entertaining for American kids watching their typical Saturday AM cartoons, but it makes for

very, very, very bad foreign policy, where bullies rule. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Ash

03-16-2004, 05:48 PM

Unlike the Koran which

has no context, there is much in the Bible that can, and has over the centuries, been taken \"out of context\".

But even if you bent and twisted the Bible inside out you couldn\'t come up with anything within it\'s covers

that orders Jews or Christians to go out and conquer the world by murdering Muslims and everyone else that isn\'t

Christian or Jew. It isn\'t there! Not so with the Koran! The teachings of the Koran are crystal clear and there

for anyone to read. The Jihad referenced in the Koran by Mohamed is the Jihad of world domination by the sword.

Period! End of story! Pick up a copy and see for yourself. It is the Jihad of the Koran and the Hadif that Osama and

who knows how many others have declared on Dar el Harb. If you have not submitted to the will of Allah, YOU are Dar

el Harb and you must die! This IS the message of the Koran and the Hadif! Period! End of story! Read the book and

see for yourself and don\'t bother bringing in the Bible as a part of the subject again. Jews and Christians

didn\'t plant the bombs or fly the planes on 911.

NOBODY disputes the fact that it\'s NOT ALL Muslims

that are causing the problems. Don\'t use that *you\'re a bigot\" argument again It\'s crap! I too have

Muslim friends. Some of them even have puppies! I honestly don\'t know where the disconnect is within the Muslim

community. I suspect it is similar to the Christian and Jewish community in that most Christians and Jews have never

read the Torah or the Bible. Most Muslims have never read the Koran. If they did they\'d probably not be Muslims

anymore. One would hope not at least as there is nothing in the Koran except murder and death. There isn\'t even a

guarantee of Paradise in the Koran but you can at least assure yourself a place in line if you kill a bunch of

Infidels. That sound like a PEACEFUL religion to you? Islam as a Peaceful religion is nothing more than NPR spoonfed

asswipe.

Like it or not, WAR was declared on us centuries ago by Mohamed and is now being carried out by his

very loyal followers. As bad, or as good as the United States has been to the rest of the world, WAR was not

declared on us as a nation. WAR was declared on anybody that is not a part of Islam! YOU DON\'T BELIEVE THAT? Do

a Google and pull up Osama\'s letter to the world released by him just after 911. You know, actually reading what

the people that are trying to kill us have to say about why they\'re trying to kill us is very eye opening. The

Palestinian Charter and the Charter of Sadam\'s Iraq are other interesting reads. That\'s all I urge anybody to

do. Get as far away from the left wing and right wing propaganda as you can. Stay away from NPR and Dan Rather and

the other \"Pretty Boys\". They can\'t tell you what\'s really going on cuz what\'s really going on is far

too scarry and way too politically incorrect! I have lot\'s more to write but I feel the need to go out and play

with my puppy.

OCP

03-16-2004, 05:59 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
Wow! You actually believe this. I agree there are alot of very good people

in Egypt, Morrocco, etc, but if you really believe that Islam is not out to conquer the world the you will be a

causualty just like the rest of us. If you do not think that the Muslims want the destruction of Israel then you are

naive. They have tried twice to kick the Israelis into the ocean and they will try again. This is real history not

something I am making up. So, explain why your peace loving Muslims are constantly fighting with Israel inspite of

concessions by Israel. You can not explain this because it is counter to what you have explained above.

I am not

a racist and I am not a bigot, but I know that Isalm is out to remove anything that gets in the way of the Muslims

ruling the world.

Why do they hate the USA and the Western allies? Because we are the reason they have not been

able to remove the Jews from the face of the Earth.

<hr /></blockquote>

(Note: This

post is meant to be read along with my other long one, above, which would address many of the expected objections to

this one.)

Wow. You may not be racist, but you sure could use a little introspection and thought. Look at what

you just wrote! You continue to unabashedly lump all Muslims into one category and entity of an enemy bent on

taking over the world and exterminating all dissenters. Because absolute religious fundamentalism has failed, and

must fail; this turns out to be a false picture. As I noted in my above post, it would be foolish to look at some

shocking phrase in the Koran, Bible (which is just as bad, like it or not. I gave some biblical references above.)

or any other religious text as determining most of the actions of most people in that religion. This also applies to

hearing some fundamentalists quote such a phrase. Almost no one actively involved in negotiating a treaty between

Israel and Palestine wants to deny Israel\'s right to exist. Recent proposals were bad for other reasons.

If

your picture was accurate, of course, the logical answer would be to exterminate all Muslims! But that is just the

logical version of your position, which I suspect is really emotional at base. If it weren\'t for your blessed

lack of logic, in fact, you would be thinking in a Hitlerian manner, which would be racist.

As I said in my large

post above, black and white thinking is exactly what we don\'t need if we want to solve things. It is the

cause of all our problems, on the process level. This is as true as facts can get. Most people just haven\'t

learned to think in processes, so they don\'t recognize this fact. But it is true.

Where is the positive

solution in \"kill or be killed?\"

What is the answer? I really believe I know the general structure of it, but

I have too much of a checkered past present and future of sex, drugs, and rawk to get elected president!

The

United states needs to move from being a bully to the world (No, we don\'t just peacibly mind our own

business all the time, especially our corporations; as much as I wish we did) to being a parent to the world.

This will be a mature position of even greater strength and leadership! Under this scenario, good parenting

techniques can and should be modified to apply to troublesome countries/entities, with much profit! I can

guarantee this approach would work, because I know the psychology behind it, as a child psychologist. The logic

transfers perfectly, even down to highly specific diplomacy techniques. It comes mostly from behavior management

theory, but a more humanized version.

The best way to get your kid to behave is not always kicking the [censored]

out of him, even if violence is his problem. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif But consistent

consequences, communication, problem solving, understanding, and strong discipline are nevertheless key. Good

parenting techniques work with all children, regardless of how disturbed they are. I\'ve worked with the

worst of them. Again, we just need a more sophisticated approach.

\"Kill THEM ALL or be killed by

THEM!\" may be entertaining for American kids watching their typical Saturday AM cartoons, but it makes for

very, very, very bad foreign policy, where bullies rule. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

<hr /></blockquote>

OK, I will give this much. When I refer to Muslims I am

referring to extremists that are Chicken Sh!t cowards who kill innocent women and children and run like cock roaches

to hide when the heat is on (except for the stupid idiots that strap explosives to themselves and blow everyone up

with themselves).

Do you really think that Yasser Arafat does not want the removal of Israel from the face of the

Earth? He is part of the \"peace\" process and it is his people that keep the violence going. It is not the Jews

who are attacking the Arabs, but vice versa. The Jews are just continually defending themselves.

Ash

03-16-2004, 06:12 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
Almost no one actively involved in negotiating a

treaty between Israel and Palestine wants to deny Israel\'s right to exist. Recent proposals were bad for other

reasons.

<hr /></blockquote>

An amazingly ignorant and uninformed statement!

Elana

03-16-2004, 06:18 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
Almost no one actively involved in negotiating a treaty between Israel and

Palestine wants to deny Israel\'s right to exist. Recent proposals were bad for other reasons.

<hr

/></blockquote>

An amazingly ignorant and uninformed statement!

<hr

/></blockquote>

I didn\'t even see this posted. Who was the original poster? With all

due respect it is pure crap.

Ash

03-16-2004, 06:18 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
Where is the positive solution in \"kill or be

killed?\"

<hr /></blockquote>

* spoken with a Valley Girl voice* Well,

let\'s see. If you kill somebody that is going to kill you before they kill you... I\'m sorry, what was the

question again?

Ash

03-16-2004, 06:28 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
but I have too much of a checkered past present and

future of sex, drugs, and rawk to get elected president!

<hr /></blockquote>

That

didn\'t stop Clinton or Bush. Go for it dude.

Ash

03-16-2004, 06:39 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
The best way to get your kid to behave is not

always kicking the [censored] out of him, even if violence is his problem.

<hr /></blockquote>

Especially as a child psychologist I would hope that you would never strike, in any way,

let alone kick the*...* out of child. Anger problem or not. The child psychology angel is an interesting one. Maybe

these \"very bad\" people would respond to a puppy after all.

thingscouldwork

03-17-2004, 03:39 AM

Some of the most ignorant voices I heard in a long time, but also some excellent posts!

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
Wow! You actually believe this. I agree there are

alot of very good people in Egypt, Morrocco, etc, but if you really believe that Islam is not out to conquer the

world the you will be a causualty just like the rest of us. If you do not think that the Muslims want the

destruction of Israel then you are naive.

<hr /></blockquote>

A proper Musim interprets

his \"bible\" /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif pretty much like we do, when it comes to peace and

leaving other people alone... Now I\'m sick and tired of so-called \"conservative-Americans\" to shout stuff

like \"It\'s them or us\" or \"they are out for world domination\"... That is lies!! Get a grip people! Listen

to Michael Moore (not all his stuff, but some) and THINK about the WORLD and not you only...

Ahhh, and who tries

to dominate the world?? Let\'s see a few countries the US bombed over the last years (in order of

bombing):

China, Korea, China, Guatemala, Indonesia, Cuba, Guatemala, Congo, Peru, Laos, Vietnam, Cambodia,

Guatemala, Genada, Lebanon, El Salvador, Nicaragua, Libya, Iran, Panam, Iraq, Somalia, Sudan, Afghanistan,

Jugoslavia, Afghanistan, Iraq... My finger actually hurt now! And you want to tell me \"it\'s all for the

best\"?? I laugh at you in pitty...

Now, believe me: I love the american people! I have relatives there that

fled during WW2 and continued to make friends there over my 6 or so visits so far... And I\'m 22... So please

don\'t tell me I just hate americans, as the opposite is the case. Let\'s just say you where unlucky in the

choosing of your leaders some of the time...

And for the leader as of now, you didn\'t even choose him

yourself anymore, so it\'s not even your fault... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

I would love

to talk to some people from the US! Plz PM me with you opinions or post them here!!

DrSmellThis

03-17-2004, 04:41 AM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
The best way to get your kid to behave is not always kicking the [censored]

out of him, even if violence is his problem.

<hr /></blockquote>

Especially as

a child psychologist I would hope that you would never strike, in any way, let alone kick the*...* out of child.

Anger problem or not. The child psychology angel is an interesting one. Maybe these \"very bad\" people would

respond to a puppy after all.

<hr /></blockquote>
I can\'t believe you didn\'t

pick up the sarcasm on one hand, and yet responded with sarcastic disinformation yourself.

DrSmellThis

03-17-2004, 04:57 AM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
Where is the positive solution in \"kill or be killed?\"

<hr

/></blockquote>

* spoken with a Valley Girl voice* Well, let\'s see. If you kill

somebody that is going to kill you before they kill you... I\'m sorry, what was the question again?

<hr

/></blockquote>
All you can do is pull this statement out of context?? You are responding

pretty much like an 8 year old here. It is pretty much universally offensive to substitute mocking for thoughtful

conversation during a serious discussion. Why type anything if you have nothing to contribute?

thingscouldwork

03-17-2004, 05:12 AM

Hey Doc:

I think we shouldn\'t even dignify stupit s**t like that with a response... Well I wouldn\'t wanna

waste my time, anyway... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

DrSmellThis

03-17-2004, 05:14 AM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
Almost no

one actively involved in negotiating a treaty between Israel and Palestine wants to deny Israel\'s right to exist.

Recent proposals were bad for other reasons.

<hr /></blockquote>

An amazingly

ignorant and uninformed statement!

<hr /></blockquote>

I didn\'t even see this

posted. Who was the original poster? With all due respect it is pure crap.

<hr /></blockquote>

Anybody can use perjorative labels like \"crap\" and \"ignorant\".

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif I missed the demonstration of fact and reason that was supposed

to accompany your labeling. Which recent peace proposal denies Israel\'s right to exist?

Elana

03-17-2004, 05:25 AM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
Which recent peace proposal denies Israel\'s

right to exist?

<hr /></blockquote>

DST....Why have the plans not gone through?

None of them? Arafat had the deal of a lifetime and backed out. Why? Why did Arafat back out? What did he ultimately

want? This is an easy one, because this can be backed up with facts....not opinions.

EXIT63

03-17-2004, 05:27 AM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
A proper Musim interprets his \"bible\" pretty

much like we do, when it comes to peace and leaving other people alone... Now I\'m sick and tired of so-called

\"conservative-Americans\" to shout stuff like \"It\'s them or us\" or \"they are out for world

domination\"... That is lies!! Get a grip people! Listen to Michael Moore (not all his stuff, but some) and THINK

about the WORLD and not you only...

Ahhh, and who tries to dominate the world?? Let\'s see a few countries the

US bombed over the last years (in order of bombing):

China, Korea, China, Guatemala, Indonesia, Cuba, Guatemala,

Congo, Peru, Laos, Vietnam, Cambodia, Guatemala, Genada, Lebanon, El Salvador, Nicaragua, Libya, Iran, Panam, Iraq,

Somalia, Sudan, Afghanistan, Jugoslavia, Afghanistan, Iraq... My finger actually hurt now! And you want to tell me

\"it\'s all for the best\"?? I laugh at you in pitty...

Now, believe me: I love the american people! I have

relatives there that fled during WW2 and continued to make friends there over my 6 or so visits so far... And I\'m

22... So please don\'t tell me I just hate americans, as the opposite is the case. Let\'s just say you where

unlucky in the choosing of your leaders some of the time...

And for the leader as of now, you didn\'t even

choose him yourself anymore, so it\'s not even your fault...

I would love to talk to some people from the US!

Plz PM me with you opinions or post them here!!

<hr /></blockquote>

Thank you

very much. I will be laughing my ass off all day long at that post.

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif Listen to Michael Moore:)

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gifI love it. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

EXIT63

03-17-2004, 05:35 AM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
All you can do is pull this statement out of

context?? You are responding pretty much like an 8 year old here. It is pretty much universally offensive to

substitute mocking for thoughtful conversation during a serious discussion. Why type anything if you have nothing to

contribute?

<hr /></blockquote>

Yeah Doc, You don\'t pull ANYTHING out

of context.

Right, sure you don\'t.

And no one can have any sarcasm except for you.

You belittle

people. You call them ignorant. You call them 8 year olds. You tell them they have nothing to contribute.

Your

a psychologist and you jokingly talk about kicking the sh!t out of childrem.

You should be ashamed of yourself.

Elana

03-17-2004, 05:45 AM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
Almost no one actively involved in negotiating a

treaty between Israel and Palestine wants to deny Israel\'s right to exist. Recent proposals were bad for other

reasons.

<hr /></blockquote>

An amazingly ignorant and uninformed statement!

<hr /></blockquote>

I didn\'t even see this posted. Who was the original poster?

With all due respect it is pure crap.

<hr /></blockquote>

Anybody can use

perjorative labels like \"crap\" and \"ignorant\". /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif I missed

the demonstration of fact and reason that was supposed to accompany your labeling. Which recent peace proposal

denies Israel\'s right to exist?

<hr /></blockquote>

1947 The UN voted to

partition \"Palestine\" into a Jewish and Arab State. What happened next? That Arabs rejected it. Why? They

declared holy war.
Not one Arab country will acknowledge the existence of Israel .

Why did Arafat turn down the

offer of a lifetime when King Hussein offered to form a government with him? Why did he turn down the best offer of

peace he could ever have had?

1947, 1967, 1973....all attempts at destroying Israel.
Israel still wants peace.

It will never happen because one side wants to live in Palestine after the destruction of Israel.... Which will

never happen.

DST...please tell me what Arab countries accept Israels right to exisit?

Elana

03-17-2004, 05:55 AM

Can

anyone here find Israel on an Arab map?

No you can\'t. Arab maps do not show Israel.

DrSmellThis

03-17-2004, 06:13 AM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
OK, I will give this much. When I refer to Muslims

I am referring to extremists that are Chicken Sh!t cowards who kill innocent women and children and run like cock

roaches to hide when the heat is on (except for the stupid idiots that strap explosives to themselves and blow

everyone up with themselves).

Do you really think that Yasser Arafat does not want the removal of Israel from the

face of the Earth? He is part of the \"peace\" process and it is his people that keep the violence going. It is

not the Jews who are attacking the Arabs, but vice versa. The Jews are just continually defending themselves.

<hr /></blockquote>

Wow, a genuine reply! Thanks!

The \'chicken [censored]

murderers\' should be imprisoned or killed. The element that is to far gone is too far gone. That is a given. No

one here is arguing against this. I think I agree with you here.

I also agree that the Palestinians are more

overtly agressive. But they have a perception that their land is being occupied, right or wrong. So they are

\"supposed\" to be the more violent ones in this scenario, where both sides think they are right. The ones with

the power of occupation always get to wear the white hats, and to appear less violent, regardless of who actually

has the moral high ground. So the neutral logical position is to discount the difference in violence

somewhat.

Also, Jewish rulership defends by retaliatory attacks and preemptive strikes, which raise

\"chicken and egg\" logical questions. People are removed forcibly from their homes or settlements. An aquaintance

of mine, a 22 y.o. college student and peace activist at the U. of Washington, who was sitting in protest at a

Palestinian settlement, was recently run over by an Israeli military bulldozer. It was most emphatically deliberate,

by all accounts. Only the Israeli military denied it. She was a sweet \"do-gooder\" type person trying to advocate

for nonviolence.

Right or wrong, these actions are not neutral on the violence scale.

Yasser is a totally

ineffective, disingenuous ex-leader. He makes empty public statements that his people should stop the terrorist

attacks. The US does not respect him in the slightest, and many in the Arab world even believe he is a pragmatic

hindrance to Palestinian statehood, as far as I can tell. I agree with you that he probably wants Israel to

disappear. But the black and white peace proposals do not say this. Moreover, Arafat will never be part of any peace

settlement, as the international community would not have it. So although he has his loyalists, I think he is no

longer the major player. You have to be recognized by more than your own loyalists. Israel does need to be careful

to keep him from the hero/martyr role, however.

Elana

03-17-2004, 06:20 AM

DST...How

do you suggest Israel respond when their people are the targets of terrorist attcks over and over? Do you not think

that they should plow down the houses of the suicide bombers? Should they not blow up houses that are housing senior

militants? Should they not target Hamas and Islamic Jihad members? How should they respond?

Elana

03-17-2004, 06:39 AM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
An aquaintance of mine, a 22 y.o. college student

and peace activist at the U. of Washington, who was sitting in protest at a Palestinian settlement, was recently run

over by an Israeli military bulldozer.

<hr /></blockquote>

We all remember her. You

couldn\'t turn on the news during the time when the Palestinian militants holed themselves up in the Church of

Nativity in Bethlehem and destroyed the place. I heard her crying for those poor militants. I didn\'t shed a tear

when she got herself killed by standing in front of a tank that DID NOT SEE HER! She was warned over and over again

to move from that area. She refused. She got herself killed.

DrSmellThis

03-17-2004, 06:42 AM

Elana, I never said it was wrong for Israel to retaliate. I agree with all those actions you named, until peace is

negotiated. I am talking about where to go from here, and advocating a pragmatic approach, as the negatives of

continued plus accumulated violence eventually outweigh the negatives of compromise for those who are practical,

regardless of culture.

Arafat would continue to sabotage things if he was allowed to. I agree he has had no

reason to refuse all the agreements. But the international community is not going to be saluting him any time soon,

or ever.

The only remotely credible proposals are ones where Israel gets the right to exist, and Palestine gets a

state. We start from there.

Elana

03-17-2004, 06:43 AM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
Elana, I never said it was wrong for Israel to

retaliate. I agree with all those actions you named, until peace is negotiated. I am talking about where to go from

here, and advocating a pragmatic approach, as the negatives of continued plus accumulated violence eventually

outweigh the negatives of compromise for those who are practical, regardless of culture.

Arafat would continue to

sabotage things if he was allowed to. I agree he has had no reason to refuse all the agreements. But the

international community is not going to be saluting him any time soon, or ever.

The only remotely credible

proposals are ones where Israel gets the right to exist, and Palestine gets a state. We start from there.

<hr /></blockquote>

At least we agree on something

DrSmellThis

03-17-2004, 07:12 AM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
We all remember her. You couldn\'t turn on the

news during the time when the Palestinian militants holed themselves up in the Church of Nativity in Bethlehem and

destroyed the place. I heard her crying for those poor militants. I didn\'t shed a tear when she got herself

killed by standing in front of a tank that DID NOT SEE HER! She was warned over and over again to move from that

area. She refused. She got herself killed.

<hr /></blockquote> I did shed a tear. My

information is that the bulldozer (not a tank) did see her, or at least knew she was there, by numerous eye witness

accounts. She was sitting in protest like they do in America, refused to move, and so he ran her down, with a lot of

people screaming right in his ear about the girl for quite some time, begging him to stop. The girl at first thought

he\'d stop, then tried to move when she realized too late he was not going to. I didn\'t get any of this from

the news, but from personal emails from eyewitnesses to our mutual friend, who came to be in tears before the news

even hit the airwaves. That was not appropriate punishment for her \"crying for militants\". I think news accounts

were quite distorted, and based on reports from the Israeli government in this case.

belgareth

03-17-2004, 07:45 AM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
We all remember her. You couldn\'t turn on the news during the time when

the Palestinian militants holed themselves up in the Church of Nativity in Bethlehem and destroyed the place. I

heard her crying for those poor militants. I didn\'t shed a tear when she got herself killed by standing in front

of a tank that DID NOT SEE HER! She was warned over and over again to move from that area. She refused. She got

herself killed.

<hr /></blockquote> I did shed a tear. My information is that the

bulldozer (not a tank) did see her, or at least knew she was there, by numerous eye witness accounts. She was

sitting in protest like they do in America, refused to move, and so he ran her down, with a lot of people screaming

right in his ear about the girl for quite some time, begging him to stop. The girl at first thought he\'d stop,

then tried to move when she realized too late he was not going to. I didn\'t get any of this from the news, but

from personal emails from eyewitnesses to our mutual friend, who came to be in tears before the news even hit the

airwaves. That was not appropriate punishment for her \"crying for militants\". I think news accounts were quite

distorted, and based on reports from the Israeli government in this case.

<hr /></blockquote>

It\'s likely the account you recieved was distorted as well. I remember seeing on the news

and hearing stories about demonstrations I participated in and not even recognizing them from what I had been a part

of. That\'s also why cops don\'t like eye-witnesses, two witnesses rarely agree on the event even though they

stood side by side watching it. You probably know better than me to take such reports with a lot of scepticism.

DrSmellThis

03-17-2004, 08:11 AM

Psychology doesn\'t teach that eyewitness acounts are bad, as they still often the best we have,

particularly when multiple witnesses agree. Sure, my information could be distorted too. But whatever distortions my

information had -- at least it wasn\'t filtered through several layers of government beurocracy and a couple of

corporate news agencies first. It was just personal emails from eyewitnesses. If you were attempting to ascertain

the truth, you\'d start with the witnesses. I watched the news versions later, and saw nothing to change my mind.

Elana

03-17-2004, 08:18 AM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
I watched the news versions later, and saw nothing

to change my mind.

<hr /></blockquote>

I saw the footage too. Nothing is changing my

mind either.

DrSmellThis

03-17-2004, 08:49 AM

So

despite all the rage, it sounds like everyone here agrees that Muslim militant extremists, who believe that all

\"infidels\" must die and try to implement this:

1. are the vast minority of those calling themselves

Muslim, whether because they didn\'t read the Koran or for other reasons.
2. can\'t be dealt with except by

physical means such as military operations. We should exterminate them whenever necessary to defend

ourselves.

But what of the other 95%? Are they not also a population to be reconed with? Should we listen to

their concerns as well as those of Israelis and Jewish folk? Or maybe we should listen only to our friends, such as

England. Is Bush\'s \"either you\'re with us or against us\" policy working?

belgareth

03-17-2004, 09:37 AM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
So despite all the rage, it sounds like everyone

here agrees that Muslim militant extremists, who believe that all \"infidels\" must die and try to implement this:

1. are the vast minority of those calling themselves Muslim, whether because they didn\'t read the Koran or

for other reasons.
2. can\'t be dealt with except by physical means such as military operations. We should

exterminate them whenever necessary to defend ourselves.

But what of the other 95%? Are they not also a

population to be reconed with? Should we listen to their concerns as well as those of Israelis and Jewish folk? Or

maybe we should listen only to our friends, such as England. Is Bush\'s \"either you\'re with us or against

us\" policy working?

<hr /></blockquote>

I agree with 1&2 completely. Of the

other 95%, my bet is they want to live in peace just like you and I do. We, the United States, has no business

telling any society how to live. We can disagree with their way of life but not demand they live by our rules. that

is, so long as they show us the same respect. Isreal, the Palestinians, the Aluets and every other people have the

right to determine their own course. If we would back out of their internal affairs, we would have a lot more

friends all over the world.

Bush\'s for or against policy is wrong any way you look at it. All that does is

polarize people who would not be involved otherwise. It goes right along with our philosophy that every country is

free to choose their own government so long as it is a democracy.

Talk to any cop or attorney, they\'ll tell

you the same thing I am saying about eye-witnesses. Other than in front of a jury that is poorly qualified to judge

the veracity, they are of little value. It\'s been demonstrated time and again that several witnesses will all

honestly remember an event differently.

Elana

03-17-2004, 11:01 AM

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif At least 27 dead, 40 wounded in explosion at Baghdad hotel,

according to senior U.S. military officials at the scene. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif

OCP

03-17-2004, 11:25 AM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
Some of the most ignorant voices I heard in a long

time, but also some excellent posts!

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
Wow! You

actually believe this. I agree there are alot of very good people in Egypt, Morrocco, etc, but if you really believe

that Islam is not out to conquer the world the you will be a causualty just like the rest of us. If you do not think

that the Muslims want the destruction of Israel then you are naive.

<hr /></blockquote>

A proper Musim interprets his \"bible\" /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

pretty much like we do, when it comes to peace and leaving other people alone... Now I\'m sick and tired of

so-called \"conservative-Americans\" to shout stuff like \"It\'s them or us\" or \"they are out for world

domination\"... That is lies!! Get a grip people! Listen to Michael Moore (not all his stuff, but some) and THINK

about the WORLD and not you only...

Ahhh, and who tries to dominate the world?? Let\'s see a few countries the

US bombed over the last years (in order of bombing):

China, Korea, China, Guatemala, Indonesia, Cuba, Guatemala,

Congo, Peru, Laos, Vietnam, Cambodia, Guatemala, Genada, Lebanon, El Salvador, Nicaragua, Libya, Iran, Panam, Iraq,

Somalia, Sudan, Afghanistan, Jugoslavia, Afghanistan, Iraq... My finger actually hurt now! And you want to tell me

\"it\'s all for the best\"?? I laugh at you in pitty...

Now, believe me: I love the american people! I have

relatives there that fled during WW2 and continued to make friends there over my 6 or so visits so far... And I\'m

22... So please don\'t tell me I just hate americans, as the opposite is the case. Let\'s just say you where

unlucky in the choosing of your leaders some of the time...

And for the leader as of now, you didn\'t even

choose him yourself anymore, so it\'s not even your fault...

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

I would love to talk to some people from the US! Plz PM me with

you opinions or post them here!!

<hr /></blockquote>

Please do not equate American

military action against other countries armies to terrorist actions by the Muslims. They are two separate issues.

Can you debate American military actions in the past? Probably and there is most likely a decent arguement on either

side. However, you can not debate cowardly bombings by terrorist (aimed at innocent people, not armies) at all. It

is wrong from any angle or position.

OCP

03-17-2004, 11:32 AM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
We all remember her. You couldn\'t turn on the news during the time when

the Palestinian militants holed themselves up in the Church of Nativity in Bethlehem and destroyed the place. I

heard her crying for those poor militants. I didn\'t shed a tear when she got herself killed by standing in front

of a tank that DID NOT SEE HER! She was warned over and over again to move from that area. She refused. She got

herself killed.

<hr /></blockquote> I did shed a tear. My information is that the

bulldozer (not a tank) did see her, or at least knew she was there, by numerous eye witness accounts. She was

sitting in protest like they do in America, refused to move, and so he ran her down, with a lot of people screaming

right in his ear about the girl for quite some time, begging him to stop. The girl at first thought he\'d stop,

then tried to move when she realized too late he was not going to. I didn\'t get any of this from the news, but

from personal emails from eyewitnesses to our mutual friend, who came to be in tears before the news even hit the

airwaves. That was not appropriate punishment for her \"crying for militants\". I think news accounts were quite

distorted, and based on reports from the Israeli government in this case.

<hr /></blockquote>

A tank was coming at her. She was in another country. She refused to move and got run over.

Tragic, but she put herself in a position of compromise and lost. In America the tank would have stopped, but she

was not in America and she should have understood that. Do I applaud her demise? No! Do I defend the Israeli tank?

I was not there and do not know what happened, therefore I can not comment.

CptKipling

03-17-2004, 12:14 PM

Elana

and Exit,

I was not calling you racist; I just hope you (and others) think carefully when trying to find an

\"object\" to aim your blame at. It is not the general population, but a very small fraction, the same fraction of

idiots you would find in any country, with the exception that these people feel that they have the motivation to

kill.

Let\'s take Israel and Palestine as an example. First of all, I understand completely why you feel the

way you do. Secondly, as a neutral, I want both sides to find a happy medium. I have some knowledge of the

situation, but I apologise for any errors.

Without question the bombers are horrific mass murderers, and with

anything I say I do not mean to condone them in any way. Many would say that these people bring the problem on

themselves, but just how nice would the Israeli government be to the Palestinians if they were taken out of the

equation completely? I mean, they don\'t have to give them anything, they were given that land...

And therin

lies the problem. The UK (and whoever else was involved) was wrong to just displace these people in the way they

did. What were they thinking?

I know two Palestinian families who have fled the region. I\'m not exactly sure

of the reasons, so I will make no comments here. For the record, I know 1 boy from each family; the first is the

most mild mannered person you will ever meet, wouldn\'t hurt a fly, the second is just your average guy. Both

condemn the terrorists. The first guy sometimes tells me of things he has heard from friends back home, and while I

take most of it with a pinch of salt (it may be exaggerated), I am shocked by some of it.

I can only think of

two examples at the moment:

Firstly, a woman was in her car with her husband when she went into labour. She was

miles from a Palestinian hospital, so the husband tries to get to an Israeli hospital. They were turned around at a

road block at gun point.

Secondly, a man was shot as a terrorist for crossing the boarder to find work because

his family was starving.

Now I\'m not sure that the stories are true, but I am reasonably confident that the

principles behind them are. Some of the Israeli troops are clamping down very hard. Imagine a similar situation

where you are as equally removed from blame, but still get punished for the actions of a few idiots.

It should be

obvious that being so harsh to the civilians is doing nothing but making things worse. They need a place to live

too. I\'m not saying that by helping them out a little bit the attacks will stop, but look at Northern Ireland,

their argument has somewhat fizzled out. There are still the same idiots running around, but their actions are less

justified (touch wood).

As the Doc said, there is no need to go completely wussy on terrorism, but running around

guns blazing just makes you look stupid, a little thought never hurt anyone.

Bel,

I agree that people

can\'t be left unpunished, but what happens to the innocent people in the way? The war against terrorism should be

a guerrilla war, with lots of careful planning and intel.

belgareth

03-17-2004, 12:35 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
Bel,

I agree that people can\'t be left

unpunished, but what happens to the innocent people in the way? The war against terrorism should be a guerrilla war,

with lots of careful planning and intel.

<hr /></blockquote>

Collateral damage?

Isn\'t that the commonly accepted term used when killing innocent bystanders? That covers about the first fifty

reasons for hating anything to do with war. As cold as it sounds, it\'s going to happen. But let me ask you this,

if we had spent all the effort and money hunting down Bin Laden and his ilk that we spent fighting that completely

pointless war in Iraq, how many people would be alive today that instead died of terrorists bombings?

No, not a

guerrilla war but a carefully planned assault on the source of the desease. Hunt the scum down, put them on trial or

kill them. But whatever you do, rid the world of their presence in such a drastic fashion as to make other would be

terrorists afraid to poke their heads out of their holes.

Elana

03-17-2004, 12:46 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
Firstly, a woman was in her car with her husband

when she went into labour. She was miles from a Palestinian hospital, so the husband tries to get to an Israeli

hospital. They were turned around at a road block at gun point.

<hr /></blockquote>

I heard that story too. Guess what? It turned out to be as true as the massacre in Jenin.

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

It never happened. If you want to do some research on this

nonexistent event, all you will find will be the dozens of pregnant Israeli women that were killed in suicide

bombings while they were taking the bus to the market place or sipping coffee at a cafe.

Yes,

Cptkipling....we all have friends that are kind hearted, mild mannered Arabs. Nobody is denying that they exisit in

large numbers.
<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
The UK (and whoever else was

involved) was wrong to just displace these people in the way they did. What were they thinking?

<hr

/></blockquote>

Nobody was displaced. The Jews needed a place to go after the

holocaust. While thousands of Jewish refugees came to live in a safe Jewish homeland (the only one in the world)

many Arab leaders convinced the Arabs to leave Israel. Israel wanted to live side by side with a Palestinian state.

The Arabs refused. They wanted the Jews dead.

Elana

03-17-2004, 01:06 PM

Cptkipling and anyone else interested....

This is what is really going on in Israel. Note the date. This just

occured a few days ago. This is

typical.

http://news.ninemsn.com.au/World/story_55509

.asp (\"http://news.ninemsn.com.au/World/story_55509.asp\")

CJ01

03-17-2004, 01:18 PM

sorry for the Clash song title

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif but I been thinking that if Blair has any sense he´s gonna get

the brit troops out of Iraq like PRONTO!! Not to save himself for the next election but to do what´s possible to

save London as best as possible now! London´s so vulnerable and has so many places that can serve as a target for

psycho bombers /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif
Blair´s out no matter what next time round as far as I can

see now but getting the troops out is the least he can do now in terms of providing a sense of safety and maybe a

chance of not getting London targeted, even if it´s just an attempt, it´s better than nothing, it´s worth a try!!!!!

tallmacky

03-17-2004, 01:44 PM

cptkipling:
<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
Without question the bombers are

horrific mass murderers, and with anything I say I do not mean to condone them in any way. Many would say that these

people bring the problem on themselves, but just how nice would the Israeli government be to the Palestinians if

they....

<hr /></blockquote>

Wooo, stop right there Captain.......Well Ash, it has

been a few months now and I see what you mean above by the those unaware of both halves can not fully know. Or

accept some truths. (?)

Just how nice would or will they be? Should that even be a question or a concern? The

truth of the matter is there is a double standard here. Suicide bombing, bombing, killing of Israeli\'s by the

Palestinians. Is as many sometimes emotionlessly say \"horrible, just a darn shame, not right at all\" and then

they quickly tell everyone that not every Palestinian is like this, and that no one should be put into one specific

group and on and on and on. People can easily say this, because they are not the Israeli\'s, it\'s not effecting

them personally, along with the hatred for Jews globally, especially in Europe. Do you know how impossible it is to

just call the bombings of people or more less \"threatening\" to \"Jihad and the rest of the Hama [censored] \"

children while going to school. You can\'t just work by that. You can\'t be an Israeli and just hand out peace

and love and commrodity to the Palestinans....but majority speaking they still seem to do, offer peace...Not sure if

I could personally.

The \"racist\" stuff is such bulls**t, the smallest and yet the worst and most hated

group in the world, the Jews are going to be a racist nation? Hahahaha. There is such a thing as blind unchanging

hate and anyone with a clear mind can see who carries that......guess.....come on this is easy...... The fact is if

there is a bombing on a school bus, and 11 school children die, that is seen as horrible, but everyone ACCEPTS it as

the norm (WTF?)....and still thinks that there is nothing wrong with muslim extremist or even muslims who are

bigots....YET let one Israeli screw up, or cause the death of 1 Palestinian and it is the \"evil Israeli\" army

who killed an innocent man, and then Israeli\'s suffer the collectism view of others.....that one complains the

the Palestinians (Arabs) have.

How ironic?

That story was made up as Elana, said....why would they

have to make up a story? Could it be that, that story is the best they could muster as the treatement of

Palestinians pales in comparison to the treatement Jews/Israeli\'s.......yep....

Fake stories vs. Real

actual events of hate and bigotry against mostly Israeli\'s, but those are more understandable/ok right?

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif

This centers around religion, religious exploitation,

blind hate, intolerance, ruthlessness. To deny that there exist a mindset in a considerably larege percentage

(Muslims with hate for Israel/Jews) is not correct. One could care less about ethnicity/race. That is not why the

Israeli\'s are in confrontation with Palestinians and much of the Arab world at all, start with the injustice and

work your way up.

CptKipling

03-18-2004, 02:43 AM

Ahh what a

complicated world we live in.

Like I said, I\'m no expert in this area, far from it in fact. I take most of

what little information I get about this topic with a pinch of salt, and the fact that my friends story was untrue

validates this approach.

I wanted to see less of a one sided slating. Sometimes the talk on here can sound

almost \"angry mob\" like, where all rational thought goes out the window.

Icarus

03-18-2004, 03:59 AM

But what about gays in

the military?

Steve

DrSmellThis

03-18-2004, 04:16 AM

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Icarus

03-18-2004, 04:55 AM

Are you coming on to

me, sir?

Steve

Elana

03-18-2004, 05:16 AM

I know that would be a

wonderful incentive for our Jason.

Sexyredhead

03-18-2004, 07:23 AM

h

ttp://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=540&e=1&u=/ap/20040318/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq (\"http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=540&e=1&u=/ap/20040318/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq\")

Theyve apparently gotten organized.

thingscouldwork

03-18-2004, 07:27 AM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
Please do not equate American military action

against other countries armies to terrorist actions by the Muslims. They are two separate issues. Can you debate

American military actions in the past? Probably and there is most likely a decent arguement on either side. However,

you can not debate cowardly bombings by terrorist (aimed at innocent people, not armies) at all. It is wrong from

any angle or position.

<hr /></blockquote>

I don\'t AT ALL!! But:

Imagine living

there and family members of you being killed in their sleep by so-called smart-bombs, while the president calls them

\"collateral damage\"... And all not for the \"greater good\", but to ensure that the US (an the rest of the

West, including us, Germany) has enough oil!!
Ok, but you would just bury your children and go back to ROOT ROOT

ROOT for the US, wouldn\'t you??

Or might you waste a few thoughts on how to fight back??? I understand

Terrorism is f**king weak and coward, BUT what other possibilities have they got?? It\'s not like they can climb

in their M1A1s, ship over to the US and try to fight your Army...

That\'s why I say: At least put yourself in

their role, if only for a minute and try to understand WHY they do it!!!

HAPPY PEOPLE DO NOT STRAP BOMBS TO THEIR

CHEST AND BLOW OTHERS UP!!! So WHY are they unhappy?? THINK ABOUT IT!!

tallmacky

03-18-2004, 08:24 AM

Post

deleted by belgareth

CJ01

03-18-2004, 08:55 AM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
I am sure if Germany was running the show now, they would not regard

\"life\" at much of a value, oh wait...they didn\'t. The truth is 60 years ago Germany was responsible for the

death of 6 million plus people, think about that number? Now why were these people killed?

<hr

/></blockquote> Thing is, Germany and (most of)Europe has learned from mistakes!! That´s why,

amongs other reasons Germany and France and other countries are so reluctant to go to war, they know what it´s like

and have a clearer picture on what it does to people, especially when it´s happening on their own soil! Why should

I country, in particular like Germany which is still suffering from what happend so long ago go to war? Just because

the big, powerful US government say it´s okay? Yeah right. They did the right thing by keeping out and besides,

neither Germany nor France can afford such undertakings - they´re flat broke and in debt and already have too much

internal sh*t to deal with /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif It would have been plain mad to join

a war at this stage financially speaking. Bush doesn´t care about the money, he´s not the one who has to clean up

the mess that´s for sure.

tallmacky

03-18-2004, 08:56 AM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
Or might you waste a few thoughts on how to fight

back???

<hr /></blockquote>

This is one of my points.....do you have a

plan on how to peacefully rid the world of Global terrorism? Or to solve it? Is there a better and more productive

way alternative to solving terrorism besides fighting back? If you know please share with us, it is an immense

problem and the mindset of terrorist is something you don\'t understand, even I don\'t understand completely,

but I know hateful people and I know their willingness to just change is inept, and furthermore, I don\'t think

you realize the deep hatred and warped perspective they have of the Israeli\'s, you think this problem just

started? Hah.

So if you don\'t have a better solution or some magic mojo that will work guess what? People

are going to fight back...PERIOD. It\'s the only correct alternative we have, to fight back smart? Yes. of course

but to fight back nonetheless.

I also find it very hypocritical, that the U.S. gets crap painted all over it.

Do I like America\'s past? No, I dislike it greatly it. 60 years ago no telling how I would be treated, probably

nothing like an \"American\". I realize and never try to hide the faults of the U.S. Think about the European

super powers of yesterday, were they any kinder or gentle with the world? I think America has it\'s faults but as

a world power it has done better than most I have seen. I also believe in the future, no matter how shitty the past

is. European nations are responsibly for the degradation of Africa, for the slave trade. Many of those people today

of European desecent call places like Australia, New Zealand. United States, Canada, South America, many islands,

and other places \"home\", but what of the native people? How is this know their \"home\". Was it taken and

wrong to do. Yes. Did the Europeans do or show anymore grace, equality, and love when they were in the drivers seat?

Do I completely like the war in Iraq, I don\'t know I am indifferent to it, but about terrorism, I feel it has to

be fought. If you are asking who is worse I think you know who...say it with me T-E-R-R O-R-I-S-T...nicely

done.

My point above was to say that, whenever a nation has been in the drivers seat, they have

well....f$#ked up big time. Modern Day America (not past) is doing greater than any other past super power.

Can you guestimate the million and millions who died in the slave/brazilian trade. The almost extinction of Native

Americans and so forth....who cries for these people now? Can we do anything about the PAST NO!!! I have blood of

\"conquerers\" and those that were enslaved in me, As much as I dislike the past and hate it, I can see that over

the years the western world is changing more to a place where equality is possible, that\'s called hope,

but nothing is perfect.

Injustices occured, people died, BUT with terrorism it is still alive and

well, we can do something now about innocent people dying out of hate, the past may be set in stone, but the

present has not hardned yet, and fighting back is the only way at this point, unless someone makes a super \"I love

everyone\" pheromone. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

tallmacky

03-18-2004, 09:05 AM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
Thing is, Germany and (most of)Europe has learned

from mistakes!! That´s why, amongs other reasons Germany and France and other countries are so reluctant to go to

war, they know what it´s like and have a clearer picture on what it does to people, especially when it´s happening

on their own soil! Why should I country, in particular like Germany which is still suffering from what happend so

long ago go to war? Just because the big, powerful US government say it´s okay? Yeah right. They did the right thing

by keeping out and besides, neither Germany nor France can afford such undertakings - they´re flat broke and in debt

and already have too much internal sh*t to deal with It would have been plain mad to join a war at this stage

financially speaking. Bush doesn´t care about the money, he´s not the one who has to clean up the mess that´s for

sure.

<hr /></blockquote>

Firstly, there are things internally that I dislike

here, but when it comes to terrorism I still believe the U.S. is right. If France and Germany don\'t want to go to

war, then fine, but a little support would be best. I know it may not have totally reaked havoc on their soil (I

know spain btw), but it very well could soon will.

Germany suffered? So Germany found out after trying

to ruthlessly and progreessively conqurere all of Europe and kill 6 million plus innocent citizens that war was

bad....WELL DUH!!!! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif No, crap!....This does not deny the bias

against Jews, and the fact that much of Germany \'til this day does not take deserving blame. Why not start by

apologizing to the citizens which were killed, if the knowledge of war and hate is so well understood? Are todays

terrorist problems worse than a possible debt?

We didn\'t ask for this war, we didn\'t ask for terrorism,

maybe the US was not squeaky clean with their policies at all (I can be 100% honest), but there are innocent lives

that are being taken in the name of \"insert reason\". There is no other choice. As for the war in Iraq I am

indifferent on, I am a Independent (not a zealous \"Bush lover\"), but when it comes to terrorism there are no

excuses...

....and again this argument was not about germany going to war or not it was about,

\"thingscouldwork\" asking us to understand and sympathize with terrorists. What next do I need to

understand and sympathize the mental mindset of a child molestor. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

I\'ll save my pity for kids who only go to school, or people who eat out at a restaurant and have no idea what is

about to strike.

CJ01

03-18-2004, 09:28 AM

Just because germany and

france didn´t want to invade Iraq doesn´t mean there not involved in fighting terrorism or don´t care. It´s simply

that most countries don´t agree on how the problem is being handled ie the idea of going to war. that´s what the

main problem is. Perhaps it will work out soon and Iraq will have it´s own government, a more reasonable than

before /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif. The UN really need to get it sorted quick.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

<hr /></blockquote> you´re not even trying to understand what I was getting at. On the other hand, you´ve proven my

point /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
As for Germany, I know it better than you do, so you

can trust me on this one.
Besides, Germany is not under dictatorship as it was back then, not so sure about

another allegedly democratic country umph /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif Bush comes pretty

close to being one IMHO
I find that scary.

I´m not sympathizing with any bleeding terrorist. They´re not

even brave enough to say what the fuke they really want, sit down and negotiate like any sane person would but

instead they take all their problems out on others. Know what those people need? A LIFE and A REAL JOB they

obviously have too much spare time on their hands!!!!

tallmacky

03-18-2004, 09:56 AM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
A LIFE and A REAL JOB they obviously have too much

spare time on their hands!!!!

<hr /></blockquote>

Firstly my initial comments

were directed at and for thingscouldwork, but I can play 2 on 1. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif I

don\'t think you understand what I mean. Whether you are being sarcastic or not, a job or a \"life\", is a blip

on the radar screen of the problem. How about a brainwashing, propganda, bigotry, religious (muslim) extremist

thinking, and mind melting madness.....We can start there and work our way up, is that cool with you?

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
As for Germany, I know it better than you do, so you can trust me on this

one.

<hr /></blockquote>

How much better do you know it? Do I thus know the U.S.

better than you do? Should you then be prohbitited to comment on certain things? \"thingscouldwork\" knows

absolutely nothing about Germany (gathered from what he had to say) or much for that matter, so that is why I

confronted him, and told him of the hypocrisy that he was stating and used Germany\'s defunked \"past\" as an

example. So lets seperate the issues of sympathize and trying to understand terrorist with the war on Iraq (which

was not my point). Thingscouldwork and you are on two seperate pages.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
Bush comes pretty close to being one IMHO

<hr /></blockquote>

I\'m personally not the biggest fan of Bush at all in general, infact many politicians I

don\'t agree with, but are you stating that Bush is a dictator or even close to that?

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif You can\'t compare Bush to Hitler at all in the realms of being

\"dictators\", that is just junk. Bush hasn\'t rolled over France with tanks forcing it\'s alliegenance.

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif Even if you are not comparing the two I still think that is

b/s.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
Germany is not under

dictatorship as it was back then, not so sure about another allegedly democratic country umph Bush comes pretty

close to being one IMHO
I find that scary.

<hr /></blockquote>

Does that make

it\'s actions pure, though I agree that no one\'s actions are of or can be expected to be of purity. Could one

of the reasons Germany (and Europe) is so reluctant to interfer with this situation is out of disdain for

Jews/Israel, and they see it as somewhat a positive? What about their already existing indifference to the US in

general? It is all of the free worlds burden. I\'m also not saying that there aren\'t some valid

reasons.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
want to invade Iraq doesn´t mean

there not involved in fighting terrorism or don´t care.

<hr /></blockquote>

I was

not trying to get into the Iraqi war, but I see that it is a possible excuse. Europe does not like the way in which

it is being conducted? Then what alternative what is Europe currnetly doing with great success to try to confront

terrorism? Did most of Europe support America when they went into Afghanistan, or was that still too harsh of a

decision? I honestly don\'t know how I feel about the Iraqi war personally, sometimes I think it was indeed a bit

self motivated, I think it had some issues big time, was the cause probably a good one. Yes it was, but was the

reason we were given 100% accurate, I\'m unsure.

tallmacky

03-18-2004, 10:02 AM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
t´s simply that most countries don´t agree on how

the problem is being handled

<hr /></blockquote>

This is another one of my

points, they don\'t agree with how it is being handled, I can respect that completely and may even agree a bit,

but my question and my point is, what is Europe currently doing to combat terrorism. What other solution is there?

If one does not know a better solution then what is the point of mentioning the possibilty of a better solution. It

seems like a point with no beginning, a scape goating....Talk is cheap, and it is easy to disagree, but to find a

solid new course of effective destructurization of terrorism is completely another thing. If anyone knows, stop

teasing me and tell me I would love to hear. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif I\'m not

specifically speaking of just or Iraq here. The whole enchilada. It is not just Iraq that much of Europe has a

problem with. (concerning the US/terrorism)

No one (I hope), wants war, more death, those of clear and peace

holding minds, do not want this, I am sure a large majority of the Israeli\'s are sick and tired of death, hatred

and so forth. They have seen terrorism in this extreme for awhile, the rest of the world is tired and sick of it

aswell. Nothing of any remote positive comes from that (muslim extremist and terrorism of any kind that which

including everyone) at all, and standing by with happy thoughts of everything magically \"working out\" and

unproven possible peace is assuring our fall.

thingscouldwork

03-18-2004, 10:19 AM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
There\'s your problem you used the word

\"BUT\". What the hell is that supposed to me? You obviously have nothing at stake or you believe you have nothing

at stake here so you give me the \"BUT\" statement, and thus are not only acknowledging terrorism but trying to

explain it as if it has ANY merit to have the grace of understandment. That\'s like someone saying Yeah I stold

your car, but it was old so who cares right? I don\'t care what you say or what you try to pull, there is no way

whatsoever to rationalize terorism on innocent citizens who are not the government, who are not the \"army\", that

you make or may even have the right to believe is evil. If someone believes blowing up a bus full a children is the

right way to fight back, especially where their hatred of that group of people is not just \"retaliation\", but

religious exploiation and blind hatred and bigotry for say, the Jews, then they are the greater monsters.

<hr

/></blockquote>

Yeah, thanks for turning the words in my mouth tall...

Now, again, for

the more narrow-minded ones:

I DO NOT CONDONE TERRORISM IN ANY WAY WHAT SO EVER!!! I ONLY ASK TO PUT YOURSELF IN

THEIR POSITION AND SEE THAT PARTLY THE ACTIONS OF THE US IN THE PAST MADE THE TERRORIST APPEAR IN THE FIRST PLACE

(YES, not all of course...)!!!

I will NOT speak about this anymore in this thread, listening to hours and hours

of propaganda obviously made you mind go from sharp to stale...

AND one more thing:

I\'m sick of being

told that my race has killed 6 millions and it is MY personal duty and fault PLUS I should feel sorry for it.
For

the record: I\'m born in \'81, I think of Hitler as a lunatic just like everyone else and the only reason I even

know of it happening is History lessons and my grandma and grandpa telling me the accational horror

stroy.

Don\'t come onto me with your stupid: \"You can\'t talk, you killed jews\" stuff... I respect ALL

religions and I don\'t even believe in \"God\" myself...

Anyhow, this was my last post concerning this as

some have been brainwashed by the media and there is no point in debating it with them... Thanks very much for all

the people supporting my views! I perfer to spend my evening talking to friends or hot birds, not trying to convince

the world of my \"peaceful ways\"

CJ01

03-18-2004, 10:21 AM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr

/>
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Bush comes pretty

close to being one

IMHO

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I\'m personally

not the biggest fan of Bush at all, infact many politictions I don\'t agree with, but are you stating that Bush is

a dictator or even close to that? You can\'t compare Bush to Hitler at all in the realms of being

\"dictators\", that is just junk. Bush hasn\'t rolled over France with tanks forcing it\'s alliegenance. Even

if you are not comparing the two I still think that is b/s.

<hr /></blockquote> I

was thinking of how he handles things, I didn´t say he was like Hitler.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As for Germany, I

know it better than you do, so you can trust me on this one.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

How much better do you

know it? Do I thus know the U.S. better than you do? Should you then be prohbitited to comment on certain things?

\"thingscouldwork\" knows absolutely nothing about Germany (gathered from what he had to say) or much for that

matter, so that is why I confronted him, and told him of the hypocrisy that he was stating and used Germany\'s

defunked \"past\" as an example. So lets seperate the issues of sympathize and trying to understand terrorist with

the war on Iraq (which was not my point). Thingscouldwork and you are on two seperate pages.

<hr

/></blockquote> I didn´t say I agree with him.
When I say that I know Germany better in

the context which I was refering too I mean I know what´s gone on inside the country and how people think and what

their attitude and mentality´s like towards their past and thus their sentiments about war.
I agree we´re on

slightly different angles here as far as your post and my response to what you wrote, I just wanted to chime in and

get things off me chest /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
What about their already existing indifference to the US in general?

<hr /></blockquote> In my view it´s exaggerated. I personally don´t agree with Bush´s

invasion of Iraq but that doesn´t mean that I can´t stand all americans now, (this would be impossible btw for

personal reasons), and that´s why I assume how others feel too. It´s just this particualar issue that´s been a

problem but it´ll pass and things will go back to normal again sooner or later.

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

the only good thing that resulted so far as far as Iraq´s

concerned is that saddam the swine got caught and this rapist §)=§(§&§$&/ son of his is dead.

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif he deserved worse tho I believe.

I had mixed feelings about

Afghanistan right after the WTD, but then I guess it was the only thing to do at that time for Bush. Trouble is I

don´t put both invasions intot he same category but Bush did or pretended to.

My head´s spinning now

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

It´s all such

a fricking mess I´m thinking of emigrating this planet /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

thingscouldwork

03-18-2004, 10:25 AM

PS:

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
This is one of my points.....do you have a

plan on how to peacefully rid the world of Global terrorism? Or to solve it? Is there a better and more productive

way alternative to solving terrorism besides fighting back? If you know please share with us, it is an immense

problem and the mindset of terrorist is something you don\'t understand, even I don\'t understand completely,

but I know hateful people and I know their willingness to just change is inept, and furthermore, I don\'t think

you realize the deep hatred and warped perspective they have of the Israeli\'s, you think this problem just

started? Hah.

<hr /></blockquote>

Well, for starters, NOT invading the Iraq while

nearly the entire world shouted \"STOP!!!\" would have helped...

(Oh SORRY, I forgot the US was not alone on

this!!! You had the \"coalition-members\" that were paid billions to support the course of Bush, so he doesn\'t

look like the lone gunman he is!) REALLY, well done!!

CJ01

03-18-2004, 10:30 AM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
That\'s why I say: At least put yourself in their role, if only for a

minute and try to understand WHY they do it!!!

<hr /></blockquote> it´s true, people

don´t do this crap for no reason HOWEVER, if they don´t make their problems known and express themselves normally

how the FUKE is the rest of the world suppose to know? If their only way to communicate is to kill people then what

message is everyone else meant to hear but `we just wan´t to kill others´?!?!

thingscouldwork

03-18-2004, 10:34 AM

Well, tell me

how they could have ANY effect on the political course of the US in a diplomatic way. Their ambassadors?? Yeahhhh,

right!!

I don\'t see one, do you??

PS: \"Moslems\" are not all bomb-strapping lunatics, it is a MINORITY,

a FRACTION that does this stuff...

Yet most people judge them like it was them steering the planes into the

WTC... Narrow-minded to say the least...

belgareth

03-18-2004, 10:57 AM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
That\'s why I say: At least put yourself in

their role, if only for a minute and try to understand WHY they do it!!!

HAPPY PEOPLE DO NOT STRAP BOMBS TO THEIR

CHEST AND BLOW OTHERS UP!!! So WHY are they unhappy?? THINK ABOUT IT!!

<hr /></blockquote>

You make the assumption that they are rational. Terrorists are not rational and cannot be

reasoned with as if they were.

franki

03-18-2004, 11:00 AM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

I was not trying to get into the Iraqi

war, but I see that it is a possible excuse. Europe does not like the way in which it is being conducted? Then what

alternative what is Europe currnetly doing with great success to try to confront terrorism? Did most of Europe

support America when they went into Afghanistan, or was that still too harsh of a decision?

<hr

/></blockquote>

European countries are engaged in the war against terrorism in

Afghanistan. A number of countries (Germany, Great Britain, Holland) have troops in Afghanistan at the moment.