View Full Version : Reading and Manipulating the opposite sex
belgareth
01-06-2004, 01:52 PM
There\'s been a number of disagreements about the degree you can manipulate somebody, for instance
these instant get laid books. I\'d like to open a discussion on the subject.
There are many organizations that
teach salesmanship, persuasion and manipulation skills. They range from car and insurance sales organizations,
shrinks and SWAT teams to the CIA and the Mossad. The simple fact is that you can use various techniques to persuade
people to do pretty much anything in a relatively short period of time. There is a good reason that many states have
laws giving the consumer several days to back out of a transaction, the techniques work! That is not to say they
work on everybody or under all conditions, but if they work reliably 30% of the time, that\'s pretty good.
Ok,
what I want to know is why they will not work in a dating situation. Why do you feel it wouldn\'t work on you?
Have you ever bought anything through high pressure sales? How would the methods differ? Have you ever used these
techniques and have reportable results, both good and bad? How does this impact the likelihood of establishing a
long term relationship?
koolking1
01-06-2004, 03:34 PM
I don\'t understand, why do you think these techniques don\'t work?
belgareth
01-06-2004, 03:38 PM
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
I don\'t understand, why do you think
these techniques don\'t work?
<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
I never said they didn\'t. read
my post. I said the simple fact is they do work.
koolking1
01-06-2004, 04:00 PM
Your last paragraph, first sentence: \"Ok, what I want to know is why they will not work in a dating
situation.\" Again, I ask, why do you think those persuasion techniques in your intitial paragraph won\'t work
in a dating situation? I\'m just curious and not trying to be argumentative.
belgareth
01-06-2004, 04:10 PM
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Your last paragraph, first sentence:
\"Ok, what I want to know is why they will not work in a dating situation.\" Again, I ask, why do you think those
persuasion techniques in your intitial paragraph won\'t work in a dating situation? I\'m just curious and not
trying to be argumentative.
<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
Like I said, I do believe that
some techniques will work. I also believe that much like high pressure sales techniques, there will be many cases of
buyers remorse and it will be detrimental to long term relationships. Many forum members do not believe they will
and I would like to know why. I would also like to know how they feel it would impact a long term
relationship.
Basically, I am fishing.
Pancho1188
01-06-2004, 06:41 PM
Jerry\'s Monologue:
What causes homophobia? What is it that makes a heterosexual man worry? I
think it\'s because men know that deep down we have weak sales resistance. We\'re constantly buying shoes that
hurt us, pants that don\'t fit right. Men think, \"Obviously I can be talked into anything. What if I
accidentally wander into some sort of homosexual store, thinking it\'s a shoe store, and the salesman goes,
\'Just hold this guy\'s hand, walk around the store a little bit, see how you feel. No obligation, no pressure,
just try it. Would you like to see him in a sandal?\'\"
belgareth
01-07-2004, 08:05 AM
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Jerry\'s Monologue:
What causes
homophobia? What is it that makes a heterosexual man worry? I think it\'s because men know that deep down we have
weak sales resistance. We\'re constantly buying shoes that hurt us, pants that don\'t fit right. Men think,
\"Obviously I can be talked into anything. What if I accidentally wander into some sort of homosexual store,
thinking it\'s a shoe store, and the salesman goes, \'Just hold this guy\'s hand, walk around the store a
little bit, see how you feel. No obligation, no pressure, just try it. Would you like to see him in a sandal?\'\"
<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
I think most men who are homophobic are that way because they
recognize the tendancy towards homosexuality in themselves. There is no such thing as 100% straight or gay, it\'s
all varying shades. Some men are afraid of it and as a result hate it.
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
</font><blockquote><font
class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Jerry\'s Monologue:
What causes homophobia? What is it that makes a
heterosexual man worry? I think it\'s because men know that deep down we have weak sales resistance. We\'re
constantly buying shoes that hurt us, pants that don\'t fit right. Men think, \"Obviously I can be talked into
anything. What if I accidentally wander into some sort of homosexual store, thinking it\'s a shoe store, and the
salesman goes, \'Just hold this guy\'s hand, walk around the store a little bit, see how you feel. No
obligation, no pressure, just try it. Would you like to see him in a sandal?\'\"
<hr /></blockquote><font
class=\"post\">
I think most men who are homophobic are that way because they recognize the tendancy towards
homosexuality in themselves. There is no such thing as 100% straight or gay, it\'s all varying shades. Some men
are afraid of it and as a result hate it.
<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
Exactly! It is said
that men tend to see sexual oreintation as balck-and-white, whereas women see it as more os a \"range.\"
belgareth
01-07-2004, 08:30 AM
And the men\'s learned behavoir conflicts with what they feel inside. Causes all sorts of distress.
Ain\'t our Judio-Christian society\'s mores a wonderful thing?
Sexyredhead
01-07-2004, 09:04 AM
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
And the men\'s learned behavoir
conflicts with what they feel inside. Causes all sorts of distress. Ain\'t our Judio-Christian society\'s mores
a wonderful thing?
<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
Now wait a minute, Bel. That\'s not fair.
Christian morals say that homosexuality is wrong, yes. But they don\'t teach you to hate anyone who\'s
homosexual, or to be homophobic. I may not agree with someone\'s choice to be homosexual, and I may not march
proudly down the street with someone merely because they are gay, but that doesn\'t mean I can\'t love someone
who is gay, it doesn\'t mean I should discriminate against anyone who is gay, and it doesn\'t mean I wouldn\'t
proudly walk down the street with someone who is gay for any other reason. Christian morals say you should not
judge, because none of us is clean enough to pass judgment.
Any person who hates, discriminates, or does violence
to someone because that person is gay is not acting along Christian morals anymore than if they were doing any of
those things to someone because he was a different race. A lot of people like to take Christian morals and twist
them into something they\'re not, or to use them for their own purposes. It still doesn\'t make it true.
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
And the men\'s learned behavoir
conflicts with what they feel inside. Causes all sorts of distress. Ain\'t our Judio-Christian society\'s mores
a wonderful thing?
<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
And there have been a passel of cultural
morays and folkways imposed on men that sort of \"boxed in\" their self-definations, for a long time. Men had to
be tough, masculine, never cry, never show vulnerability, yada, yada for a long time.
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
</font><blockquote><font
class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
And the men\'s learned behavoir conflicts with what they feel inside.
Causes all sorts of distress. Ain\'t our Judio-Christian society\'s mores a wonderful thing?
<hr
/></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
Now wait a minute, Bel. That\'s not fair. Christian morals say that
homosexuality is wrong, yes. But they don\'t teach you to hate anyone who\'s homosexual, or to be homophobic. I
may not agree with someone\'s choice to be homosexual, and I may not march proudly down the street with someone
merely because they are gay, but that doesn\'t mean I can\'t love someone who is gay, it doesn\'t mean I
should discriminate against anyone who is gay, and it doesn\'t mean I wouldn\'t proudly walk down the street
with someone who is gay for any other reason. Christian morals say you should not judge, because none of us is clean
enough to pass judgment.
Any person who hates, discriminates, or does violence to someone because that person is
gay is not acting along Christian morals anymore than if they were doing any of those things to someone because he
was a different race. A lot of people like to take Christian morals and twist them into something they\'re not, or
to use them for their own purposes. It still doesn\'t make it true.
<hr /></blockquote><font
class=\"post\">
I don\'t think sexual orientation is a choice. 10% of the population is gay. Sexual
orientation is thought to ne innate.
A zoologist friend of mine says that 10% of monkeys, among certain species
are also \"gay.\" The male homosexuals are the \"guard monkeys.\" Since they don\'t reproduce, they are on the
\"front lines.\" The \"lesbian\" females adopt orphaned babies.
Elana
01-07-2004, 09:29 AM
Orthodox excluded because they are a different religion and I don\'t know where they stand.....The
Jewish religion doesn\'t care if someone is gay or not. It really is a non issue. There is no hell or punishment
in the Jewish religion and people are not considered sinful if they have a different sexual preference. Just wanted
to clear that up.
belgareth
01-07-2004, 09:47 AM
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
</font><blockquote><font
class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
And the men\'s learned behavoir conflicts with what they feel inside.
Causes all sorts of distress. Ain\'t our Judio-Christian society\'s mores a wonderful thing?
<hr
/></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
Now wait a minute, Bel. That\'s not fair. Christian morals say that
homosexuality is wrong, yes. But they don\'t teach you to hate anyone who\'s homosexual, or to be homophobic. I
may not agree with someone\'s choice to be homosexual, and I may not march proudly down the street with someone
merely because they are gay, but that doesn\'t mean I can\'t love someone who is gay, it doesn\'t mean I
should discriminate against anyone who is gay, and it doesn\'t mean I wouldn\'t proudly walk down the street
with someone who is gay for any other reason. Christian morals say you should not judge, because none of us is clean
enough to pass judgment.
Any person who hates, discriminates, or does violence to someone because that person is
gay is not acting along Christian morals anymore than if they were doing any of those things to someone because he
was a different race. A lot of people like to take Christian morals and twist them into something they\'re not, or
to use them for their own purposes. It still doesn\'t make it true.
<hr /></blockquote><font
class=\"post\">
You misunderstand me. I am commenting on what it teaches to believe about ourselves, not about
others.
belgareth
01-07-2004, 09:54 AM
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
</font><blockquote><font
class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
And the men\'s learned behavoir conflicts with what they feel inside.
Causes all sorts of distress. Ain\'t our Judio-Christian society\'s mores a wonderful thing?
<hr
/></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
And there have been a passel of cultural morays and folkways imposed on
men that sort of \"boxed in\" their self-definations, for a long time. Men had to be tough, masculine, never cry,
never show vulnerability, yada, yada for a long time.
<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
In large
part and in most cultures, that is still true.
Pancho1188
01-07-2004, 10:00 AM
Belgareth, I\'d like to apologize for unintentionally changing the subject. I posted that Seinfeld
thing because it said, \"Basically, I can be talked into anything,\" which was going along with your persuasion
thing. I didn\'t mean to turn it into a homosexuality talk (\"not that there\'s anything wrong with
that!!!\"). As my effort to get back onto the subject...
I don\'t know much about the power of persuasion
because I was never good at it. I know a lot of little techniques like always using positive statements (never use
\"don\'t\", \"can\'t\", \"shouldn\'t\", and, interestingly, \"never\"
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif), try to show how much it\'ll benefit the person, make them
feel like they need whatever you\'re trying to get them to believe in/buy/go along with... I could never do it,
though, because I\'m a firm believer in blunt honesty, and I just give it to people straight (in as nice of a way
as possible for the given situation; I\'d rather say, \"You need to work on this\" instead of \"You suck at
this\").
Hell, my best example was convincing a girl to go out with me once. We were best friends, she loved me
more than anything, but it still took me 6 months to persuade her that it was a good thing because she\'s always
gone out with jerks with whom it would never work out and never actually had a relationship that could become
long-term serious. SIX MONTHS!!!!!!!!!! Apparently, I\'m doing something wrong.
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif Of course, I\'ve had two other people fall in love with me in
one night (PM me if you think I\'m full of crap and want proof).........so maybe it\'s the person. I don\'t
know. I\'m just trying to get the discussion going even though I\'m the last person to know jack about this.
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
I tried, Bel. Hope it helps.
Pancho
Pancho1188
01-07-2004, 10:09 AM
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Men had to be tough, masculine, never
cry, never show vulnerability, yada, yada for a long time.
<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
Hey,
I\'m all about trying to open up, share feelings, and have a woman to cry on...but even the women believe this
male machismo thing because it\'s been drilled into society so much... I wouldn\'t want to come off as a
\"nancy boy\" wimp to Elana (joke from copulin thread) or any other of the lovely femininas here...
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
So I guess it\'s on with the \"Tests of
Masculinity\"...
GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR.............
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gifPancho /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
DrSmellThis
01-07-2004, 10:19 AM
All the scientific data everywhere (!), including pheromone studies, indicate basic sexual preference
is biologically determined, which makes God the only possible \"homosexual sinner\" in every reality equation!
It\'s all pretty well-detailed now, traced back to the moment of conception (hormone soup stuff) and beyond
(genetics). Just ask Jim Kohl about the pheromone research on homosexuality, for example. The everyday hormone
processes are also very different.
I usually shy away from discussing religion these days, after spending 14
tedious years at 2 Christian Universities (not to mention both Christian grade schools and high school), and then
teaching at a third one, but since there is nothing whatsoever in the Gospels negative toward homosexuality; and
given the theological controversies around the letters of Paul, etc.; and, since the old testament cannot
reasonably be taken literally (Given the horrendous literal things such as pillaging and plundering promoted
in certain places in the OT, we have to start with the OT as a collection of stories and histories about humans\'
relationships to God and go from there); it is more accurate to say that certain religious dogmas within
certain so-called Christian religions \"prohibit\" (ahem) homosexuality. \"Christianity\" per se is not
against being gay. There have always been many varieties of Christianity, many of which are fine with homosexuality,
and no evidence that Jesus of Nazareth was anti-gay. Some religious cultures, especially in the middle and southern
US, pridefully believe their brand of religious dogma is something like \"just real good \'ol basic
Christianity,\" when there is no such thing and never was. Christianity was originally some 200 (an educated guess
is all that\'s possible) fairly independent, loosely related sects, many with their own unique scriptures and
gospels. A good bit of variety remains (There are still active Essene or Gnostic branches, for example. And the
Orthodox religion is arguably the oldest, most traditional existing version of Christianity (not a different faith
altogether!), the religion from which the most popular branches of Christianity, including Baptists and Catholics,
all sprang).
Given the unambiguous science, it getting harder for aware Christians to deny, without
psychologically lobotomizing themselves (but never underestimate the power of denial among the religious), that
hating homosexuality is equivalent to hating the Divine gift of sexuality, which is equivalent to hating God in the
moment one has such a thought. As far as anyone can know at this time, the anti-homosexuality dogma is itself
sinful. By straightforward theological reasoning, antigay dogma violates Christianity at it\'s very center --
Jesus\' own repeated proclamation of the two \"highest\" commandments. \"Anti-gay\" is no more Christian than
Al Quaida is Muslim!
Interestingly, the clergyman who is president of the largest Christian
University in Oregon is gay as a three dollar bill (I knew him when he was a younger, more flaming unknown, and had
him as a teacher), and almost no one knows it or talks about it. It\'s hilarious to watch him running around now
trying to act macho now that he has political power.
belgareth
01-07-2004, 10:31 AM
Pancho,
No problem, I asked my question trying to encourage wide ranging discussion. And it is an
interesting conversation, in any case.
Salesmanship has never been one of my strong points for the same reasons
as yours. Blunt is good, it saves all sorts of misunderstandings later on. In person, I am a soft spoken gentleman
who never pushes but never follows either. I am almost always cheerful and laugh and joke about most everything. My
approach to women is simple, they are either willing to meet me as an equal without games or I\'ll go elsewhere.
If I am interested in a woman I show it but I am nice to everybody. If a woman does not want a relationship with me,
no problem.
Several of my employees are salespeople and they try to use their tactics on women with varying
success. Overall, they seem to cause themselves more grief than good. That, and some of the threads in this forum
are what generated my original question, which is still unanswered.
CptKipling
01-07-2004, 11:56 AM
I think that these articles, books, web pages and so on are a valuable read, but not for the most
obvious reason.
I have always been interested in understanding people, which led to a fleeting affair with
psychology and lasting interest in articles on the internet. A few of these included Doc Love\'s articles on
askmen.com and various seduction web sites. Some of them are an interesting read and highlight some important
principles in their various techniques. However, I have not once used any of their specific \"methods\" or
strategies, because no one lives by a script. We are talking about seducing women here, by nature the most
unpredictable creature on God\'s Earth. The way I have used these techniques is to figure them out on a very basic
level, and then after applying these ideas to practical experience you can \"program\" yourself to respond. The
emphasis there though is on \"practical experience\", which leads to another ailment of the male seduction system.
Most guys (that includes me) have no clue where to start, and these \"Seduction Manuals\" do have to good ideas to
start you off.
Check out www.fastseduction.com (\"http://www.fastseduction.com\") , it\'s one of the
best.
There are a few good threads around here somewhere, I\'ll try to dig some up.
CptKipling
01-07-2004, 01:52 PM
Too much like hard work, just do a search for \"seduction\"
But this one by Andy stood out in my
mind:
web page (\"http://www.server2.love-scent.com/ubbthreads/favlinker.php?Cat=&Entry=2085&F_Board=UBB5&Thread= 8
1460&partnumber=1&postmarker=\")
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.2 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.