Saddam Hussein captured [Archive] - Love-Scent Pheromones Forum

CJ01

12-14-2003, 03:57 AM

Allegedly!

CJ01

12-14-2003, 04:45 AM

It looks like

it´s really him but I´m still kinda sceptical. Don´t know why.

koolking1

12-14-2003, 05:28 AM

he must

have been wearing the wrong pheromones!!!

Elana

12-14-2003, 05:33 AM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
he must have been wearing the wrong pheromones!!!

<hr /></blockquote>

He looks pissed in the picture.

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

EXIT63

12-14-2003, 05:44 AM

Merry

Christmas!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

CJ01

12-14-2003, 05:49 AM

Pissed? Or

stoned?

CJ01

12-14-2003, 05:59 AM

the beeb´s got

some footage: http://news.bbc.co.uk/ (\"http://news.bbc.co.uk/\")
he does look like he´s been having a

pretty uncomfortable time. GOOD !!!!

belgareth

12-14-2003, 06:09 AM

Saddam

Hussein Captured Alive Near Tikrit

By HAMZA HENDAWI, Associated Press Writer

BAGHDAD, Iraq - American

forces captured a bearded Saddam Hussein (news - web sites) as he hid in a dirt hole under a farmhouse near his

hometown of Tikrit, ending one of the most intensive manhunts in history. The arrest, eight months after the fall of

Baghdad, was carried out without a shot fired and was a huge victory for U.S. forces.

\"Ladies and gentlemen,

we got him,\" U.S. administrator L. Paul Bremer told a news conference Sunday. \"The tyrant is a prisoner.\"

Saddam was captured Saturday at 8:30 p.m. in a specially prepared \"spider hole\" in a house in Adwar, a town

10 miles from Tikrit, said Lt Col. Ricardo Sanchez, the top U.S. military commander in Iraq (news - web sites). The

hole was six to eight feet deep, with enough space to lie down, camouflaged with bricks and dirt and supplied with

an air vent to allow long periods inside.

A U.S. defense official said Saddam admitted his identity when

captured.

Sanchez, who saw Saddam overnight, said the deposed leader \"has been cooperative and is

talkative.\" He described Saddam as \"a tired man, a man resigned to his fate.\"

In the capital, radio

stations played celebratory music, residents fired small arms in the air in celebration and passengers on buses and

trucks shouted, \"They got Saddam! They got Saddam!\"

Eager to give Iraqis evidence that the elusive former

dictator had indeed been captured, Sanchez played a video at the news conference showing the 66-year-old Saddam in

custody. Saddam, with a thick, graying beard and bushy, disheveled hair, was seen as doctor examined him, holding

his mouth open with a tongue depressor, apparently to get a DNA sample. Saddam touched his beard during the exam.

Then the video showed a picture of Saddam after he was shaved, juxtaposed for comparison with an old photo of the

Iraqi leader while in power.

Iraqi journalists in the audience stood, pointed and shouted \"Death to Saddam!\"

and \"Down with Saddam!\"

Though the raid occurred Saturday afternoon American time, U.S. officials went to

great length to keep it quiet until medical tests and DNA testing confirmed Saddam\'s identity.

Washington

hopes Saddam\'s capture will help break the organized Iraq resistance that has killed more than 190 American

soldiers since President Bush (news - web sites) declared major combat over on May 1 and has set back efforts at

reconstruction. U.S. commanders have said that while in hiding Saddam played some role in the guerrilla campaign

blamed on his followers.

In the latest attack, a suspected suicide bomber detonated explosives in a car outside

a police station Sunday morning west of Baghdad, killing at least 17 people and wounding 33 more, the U.S. military

said.

Saddam was being held at an undisclosed location, and U.S. authorities have not yet determined whether to

hand him over to the Iraqis for trial, Sanchez said. Iraqi officials want him to stand trial before a war crimes

tribunal created last week.

\"This success brings closure to the Iraqi people,\" Sanchez said.

\"Saddam

Hussein will never return to a position of power from which he can punish, terrorize, intimidate and exploit the

Iraqi people as the did for more than 35 years.\"

Ahmad Chalabi, a member of Iraq\'s Governing Council, said

Sunday that Saddam will be put on trial.

\"Saddam will stand a public trial so that the Iraqi people will know

his crimes,\" said Chalabi told Al-Iraqiya, a Pentagon funded TV station.

British Prime Minister Tony Blair

(news - web sites) hailed the capture, saying the deposed leader \"has gone from power, he won\'t be coming

back.\"

\"Where his rule meant terror and division and brutality, let his capture bring about unity,

reconciliation and peace between all the people of Iraq,\" Blair said in brief comments at his 10 Downing St.

office.

In Tikrit, U.S. soldiers lit up cigars after hearing the news of Saddam\'s capture.

Some 600

troops from the 4th Infantry Division along with Special Forces captured Saddam, the U.S. military said. There were

no shots fired or injuries in the raid, called \"Operation Red Dawn,\" Sanchez said.

Two men \"affiliated

with Saddam Hussein\" were detained with him, and soldiers confiscated two Kalashnikov rifles, a pistol, a taxi and

$750,000 in $100 bills, Sanchez said. The two men were \"fairly insignificant\" regime figures, a U.S. defense

official said.

Celebratory gunfire erupted in the capital, and shop owners closed their doors, fearful that the

shooting would make the streets unsafe.

\"I\'m very happy for the Iraqi people. Life is going to be safer

now,\" said 35-year-old Yehya Hassan, a resident of Baghdad. \"Now we can start a new beginning.\"

Earlier in

the day, rumors of the capture sent people streaming into the streets of Kirkuk, a northern Iraqi city, firing guns

in the air in celebration.

\"We are celebrating like it\'s a wedding,\" said Kirkuk resident Mustapha

Sheriff. \"We are finally rid of that criminal.\"

\"This is the joy of a lifetime,\" said Ali Al-Bashiri,

another resident. \"I am speaking on behalf of all the people that suffered under his rule.\"

Despite the

celebration throughout Baghdad, many residents were skeptical.

\"I heard the news, but I\'ll believe it when

I see it,\" said Mohaned al-Hasaji, 33. \"They need to show us that they really have him.\"

Ayet Bassem, 24,

walked out of a shop with her 6-year-old son.

\"Things will be better for my son,\" she said. \"Everyone says

everything will be better when Saddam is caught. My son now has a future.\"

After invading Iraq on March 20 and

setting up their headquarters in Saddam\'s sprawling Republican Palace compound in Baghdad, U.S. troops launched a

massive manhunt for the fugitive (news - Y! TV) leader, placing a $25 million bounty on his head and sending

thousands of soldiers to search for him.

Saddam was one of the most-wanted fugitives in the world, along with

Osama bin Laden (news - web sites), the leader of the al-Qaida terrorist network who hasn\'t been caught despite a

manhunt since November 2001, when the Taliban regime was overthrown in Afghanistan.

Saddam proved elusive during

the war, when at least two dramatic military strikes came up empty in their efforts to assassinate him. Since then,

he has appeared in both video and audio tapes. U.S. officials named him No. 1 on their list of 55 most-wanted

Iraqis, the lead card in a special deck of most-wanted cards.

Saddam\'s sons Qusai and Odai — each with a $15

million bounty on their heads — were killed July 22 in a four-hour gunbattle with U.S. troops in a hideout in the

northern city of Mosul. The bounties were paid out to the man who owned the house where they were killed, residents

said.

Adnan Pachachi, member of Iraq\'s U.S.-appointed Governing Council, said Saddam\'s capture will bring

stability to Iraq.

\"The state of fear, intelligence and oppression is gone forever,\" Pachachi said. \"The

Iraqi people are very happy and we look forward to a future of national reconciliation between Iraqis in order to

build the new and free Iraq, an Iraq of equality.\"

Kari

12-14-2003, 06:34 AM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
It looks like it´s really him but I´m still kinda

sceptical. Don´t know why.

<hr /></blockquote>

Maybe because you saw the movie

\"Wag the Dog.\"

I\'m sceptical too. I also doubt that he was connected to 9-11. His planes don\'t fly.

And, as the French keep pointing out, neither he nor the Afghani cave dweller has ther influence/ability to subborn

the FAA AND the Air Force.

CJ01

12-14-2003, 07:29 AM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
Maybe because you saw the movie \"Wag the Dog.\"

<hr /></blockquote> No.
But the US governemnt and media like to bullshit people.

Plus, Bush needs something positive to tell people so hopefully they´ll think he ain´t so bad after all and re elect

him after all!
It is him though as I´m pretty sure now having followed the news all day, it´s late afternoon over

here now.

The US gov used the WTC attacks as an excuse to go into Iraq IMO. They had no evidence that Saddam was

involved in it. Sure he has connections with bin laden, I mean he probably does but that´s no proof of involvement

IMO.

Kari

12-14-2003, 07:47 AM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
Maybe because you saw the movie \"Wag the Dog.\"

<hr

/></blockquote> No.
But the US governemnt and media like to bullshit people. Plus, Bush

needs something positive to tell people so hopefully they´ll think he ain´t so bad after all and re elect him after

all!
It is him though as I´m pretty sure now having followed the news all day, it´s late afternoon over here

now.

The US gov used the WTC attacks as an excuse to go into Iraq IMO. They had no evidence that Saddam was

involved in it. Sure he has connections with bin laden, I mean he probably does but that´s no proof of involvement

IMO.

<hr /></blockquote>

Agree with you, re:this. Except that he and Bin Laden are

reported to have hated eachother.

Elana

12-14-2003, 08:13 AM

I would be a

hypocrite if I said that the US should ignore the atrocities that went on under Saddams reign. Even if he had

nothing to do with 9/11, we still can\'t sit blindly by while thousands (millions) of innocent people are killed.

I just wish that people would have stepped in fasting during the World War II/holocaust before over 6 million (I

think the number was closer to 13 million total) people were killed. Just because it isn\'t going on in our own

backyard doesn\'t give us the right to ignore it. JMHO

CJ01

12-14-2003, 08:21 AM

I agree, since

the early/mid 90´s I´ve been asking myself why Milosevic was not stopped!!! I mean why did nobody do

anything?!

WW2 is one point in time where the USA really could have gotten off their botties a little sooner

imo.

We must also bear in mind that saddam didn´t become a leader by his own efforts alone. He had help from

outside - weapons supply is a keyword here.

Elana

12-14-2003, 08:24 AM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
I agree, since the early/mid 90´s I´ve been asking

myself why Milosevic was not stopped!!! I mean why did nobody do anything?!

WW2 is one point in time where the

USA really could have gotten off their botties a little sooner imo.

We must also bear in mind that saddam didn´t

become a leader by his own efforts alone. He had help from outside - weapons supply is a keyword here.

<hr

/></blockquote>

I agree, CJ.

Americans are very aware of how horrible Saddam was to

his people, but many still say that it is someone else\'s job to take care of the problem. Like who? To me that is

like saying, \"why should I donate money to the American Heart Association, when there is nothing wrong with my

heart?\" It\'s because it is the right thing to do.

franki

12-14-2003, 08:52 AM

Here there are

people (they call themselves anti-fascists) who are collecting money for the so-called \"Iraqi-resistance\" to

bomb \"American Imperialists\"... The ultra-left people here are really nuts, the scandal was that they were

granted rooms at the college I study at to hold meetings.. I know these people can\'t be helped but I do hope some

of them will change their minds now that Saddam is captured..

Franki

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

CJ01

12-14-2003, 09:00 AM

taking care of it

was long overdue. What I disagree with is how Bush and his people went about it! It was a head over heels action

and they act like they own the whole damn world and can do what they want, don´t need to justify themselves because

HEY, they´re a big and powerful country and just don´t need to explain themselves or collaborate with others, know

what I mean? It´s a cowboy attitude which, in my opinion has no place in our world and time.
And BSing everyone

really doesn´t make them more credible.

What really p*ssed me off BIG TIME was that agreement about not being

done for war crimes. ie, they got immunity. I mean if that´s nothing to worry about -dodgy or what!

I think we

pretty much agree on the subject overall. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

Bruce

12-14-2003, 09:11 AM

I was watching

footage on CNN this morning. The country has errupted into massive celebration, and that caught everybody by

surprise over here. When they killed his sons, Iraqiis kept quiet and there was all this speculation why folks

weren\'t celebrating. \"Maybe they need to see some proof...\" etc etc. Now it all comes into focus. It is

the man himself they feared and running around celebrating that his sons are dead didn\'t seems so wise back then.

Now it\'s time to celebrate.

OK, I\'m agreed that the whole war was business driven. If the \"right

thing\" is going to get done, the common man (ie: you and I) has to let his voice be heard. Personally, I am glad

Sadam is gone. He was a creep. But if we are going to walk away as the good guys, we have to rebuild this country

big time, and right now! Reports are that conditions are deteriorating. Let\'s fix that place up, get a decent

democratic government going and get the hell out. Now is a good opportunity to show rather than explain that we are

the good folks.

B

CJ01

12-14-2003, 09:18 AM

yeah Bruce!

What do you think of Bush´s decision that most countries are not `allowed´ to participate in the rebuilding

process?
- that really annoyed me, because it´s not his decision to make.

Saddams sons are/were just as bad as

he was. Total sadists! I´m not into capital punishment, I reckon torture is a much more appropriate punishment for

such SCUMS!

franki

12-14-2003, 09:20 AM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
yeah Bruce!
What do you think of Bush´s

decision that most countries are not `allowed´ to participate in the rebuilding process?
- that really annoyed

me, because it´s not his decision to make.

<hr /></blockquote>

It may not be

nice of Bush, but I think the USA has the right to spend its own tax money the way it wants...

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

CJ01

12-14-2003, 09:28 AM

true but it also

means business for those who invest, eventually, maybe...
I dead certain they´ve been nicking sh*tloads of oil,

from day 1 anyway...

Bruce

12-14-2003, 09:36 AM

From what I

read, Bush has softened his position on the contract barriers. Both Franki and CJ make good points. A lot of US

tax dollars are going to pay for the reconstruction, and yeah, there is a hell of a lot of oil coming out of the

country every day. Let the businessmen crunch the numbers and argue about that. I just want to see the standard of

living of the average Iraqii skyrocket over the next few months. I have this nagging feeling that if they don\'t

do it now, it is never going to happen.

B

Elana

12-14-2003, 09:50 AM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
But if we are going to walk away as the good guys,

we have to rebuild this country big time, and right now! Reports are that conditions are deteriorating. Let\'s fix

that place up, get a decent democratic government going and get the hell out. Now is a good opportunity to show

rather than explain that we are the good folks

<hr /></blockquote>

I agree. I am sure

we will do the right thing.

Elana

12-14-2003, 09:53 AM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
I think we pretty much agree on the subject

overall.

<hr /></blockquote>

I think so too, CJ.

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Kari

12-14-2003, 10:04 AM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
I would be a hypocrite if I said that the US should

ignore the atrocities that went on under Saddams reign. Even if he had nothing to do with 9/11, we still can\'t

sit blindly by while thousands (millions) of innocent people are killed. I just wish that people would have stepped

in fasting during the World War II/holocaust before over 6 million (I think the number was closer to 13 million

total) people were killed. Just because it isn\'t going on in our own backyard doesn\'t give us the right to

ignore it. JMHO

<hr /></blockquote>

Only thing is.. we armed him, WHILE he was

committing atrocities. We only cut him loose, when he balked us.

And, we are also supporting other atrocious

regimes.

So, I agree with you. But, that\'s not how our govt does things.

Kari

12-14-2003, 10:05 AM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
I agree, since the early/mid 90´s I´ve been asking

myself why Milosevic was not stopped!!! I mean why did nobody do anything?!

WW2 is one point in time where the

USA really could have gotten off their botties a little sooner imo.

We must also bear in mind that saddam didn´t

become a leader by his own efforts alone. He had help from outside - weapons supply is a keyword here.

<hr

/></blockquote>

He got weapons first, from us, then, from the Russians. Weaponrt is now

dated and primitive, and the planes don\'t fly.

Elana

12-14-2003, 10:08 AM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
I would be a hypocrite if I said that the US should ignore the atrocities

that went on under Saddams reign. Even if he had nothing to do with 9/11, we still can\'t sit blindly by while

thousands (millions) of innocent people are killed. I just wish that people would have stepped in fasting during the

World War II/holocaust before over 6 million (I think the number was closer to 13 million total) people were killed.

Just because it isn\'t going on in our own backyard doesn\'t give us the right to ignore it. JMHO

<hr

/></blockquote>

Only thing is.. we armed him, WHILE he was committing atrocities. We only

cut him loose, when he balked us.

And, we are also supporting other atrocious regimes.

So, I agree with you.

But, that\'s not how our govt does things.

<hr /></blockquote>

I am looking at

the end result. I know that people don\'t like the way the Bush went into this war, but I just don\'t see that

as what is important. To me what matters is now Iraqi people can listen to the radio and choose to enjoy music

without having to worry about being shot in the head. There are horiffic atrocities going on in our world. This is

just a drop in the bucket, but it is a start.

Pancho1188

12-14-2003, 10:14 AM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
I agree, since the early/mid 90´s I´ve been asking

myself why Milosevic was not stopped!!! I mean why did nobody do anything?!

WW2 is one point in time where the

USA really could have gotten off their botties a little sooner imo.

We must also bear in mind that saddam didn´t

become a leader by his own efforts alone. He had help from outside - weapons supply is a keyword here.

<hr

/></blockquote>

I don\'t know if this will come as a shock to anyone, but we created our

own monsters...

Leaders like Castro, Saddam, and the former Afghan regime...The US government was what gave them

their power.

Castro is easy because everyone knows we helped him overthrow the old regime, but a lot of people

don\'t know that we gave millions of dollars to the Taliban government a few years ago and gave Saddam enough

weapons to add Texas to the Gulf of Mexico (if you get the mental picture) when we were in conflict with Iran. The

US is the country that gave them power, and now it is the country that is taking away their power. (Warning: Bad

joke coming) Sometimes I think the Pentagon is just a big building with a large gameboard of Risk

inside...

\"It\'s Risk, Jerry. The game of world conquest.\" - Kramer

CJ01

12-14-2003, 10:14 AM

yeah kari, that´s

what I was implying. It was the US who played a mega vital role in making as powerful as he is/WAS. scary!

the

planes don´t fly? Getting an aircraft up and running is a piece of cake.

Holmes

12-14-2003, 10:19 AM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
Sometimes I think the Pentagon is just a big

building with a large gameboard of Risk inside...

<hr /></blockquote>

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif No sh!t.

Holmes

Elana

12-14-2003, 10:24 AM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
Leaders like Castro, Saddam, and the former Afghan

regime...The US government was what gave them their power.

<hr /></blockquote> Yeah, we

screwed up but we still can\'t turn a blind eye to innocent people being bullied around. I see that a lot of

people are pointing fingers at the US. What do you suppose we do? Should we ignore what is going on in the rest of

the world?

CJ01

12-14-2003, 10:26 AM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
To me what matters is now Iraqi people can listen

to the radio and choose to enjoy music without having to worry about being shot in the head.

<hr

/></blockquote> yep, if they hear Springsteen and other great bands and singers, maybe

they´ll come to change their minds about americans.
Perhaps they can do a production of mamma mia or something you

know - something cheerful! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Elana

12-14-2003, 10:27 AM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
To me what matters is now Iraqi people can listen to the radio and choose

to enjoy music without having to worry about being shot in the head.

<hr /></blockquote>

yep, if they hear Springsteen and other great bands and singers, maybe they´ll come to change their minds about

americans.
Perhaps they can do a production of mamma mia or something you know - something cheerful!

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

<hr /></blockquote>

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif That was funny

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Kari

12-14-2003, 10:30 AM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
I would be a

hypocrite if I said that the US should ignore the atrocities that went on under Saddams reign. Even if he had

nothing to do with 9/11, we still can\'t sit blindly by while thousands (millions) of innocent people are killed.

I just wish that people would have stepped in fasting during the World War II/holocaust before over 6 million (I

think the number was closer to 13 million total) people were killed. Just because it isn\'t going on in our own

backyard doesn\'t give us the right to ignore it. JMHO

<hr /></blockquote>

Only

thing is.. we armed him, WHILE he was committing atrocities. We only cut him loose, when he balked us.

And, we

are also supporting other atrocious regimes.

So, I agree with you. But, that\'s not how our govt does things.

<hr /></blockquote>

I am looking at the end result. I know that people don\'t

like the way the Bush went into this war, but I just don\'t see that as what is important. To me what matters is

now Iraqi people can listen to the radio and choose to enjoy music without having to worry about being shot in the

head. There are horiffic atrocities going on in our world. This is just a drop in the bucket, but it is a start.

<hr /></blockquote>

I\'m with you, here. I just wish we would consistently walk our

talk. I guess, in a perfect world...... we can start by withdrawing support from the Saudi monarchies. S.A. has

serious human rights problems.

Iraqi culture is MAGNIFICENT, BTW. I learned a lot about Middle-eastern arts and

cultures when I was a dancer.

Kari

12-14-2003, 10:34 AM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
Leaders like Castro, Saddam, and the former Afghan regime...The US

government was what gave them their power.

<hr /></blockquote> Yeah, we screwed up but we

still can\'t turn a blind eye to innocent people being bullied around. I see that a lot of people are pointing

fingers at the US. What do you suppose we do? Should we ignore what is going on in the rest of the world?

<hr

/></blockquote>

No, but I think we should adopt a consitent human rights policy. We often

put and keep opressive regimes into power, and turn a blind eye until they \"cross\" us. THEN we wage war, on the

basis of human rights violations that we blew off, when we were getting what we wanted. Gives us a very bad name.

Elana

12-14-2003, 10:34 AM

I have spend a

bit of time in the Middle East as well.
It was life changing

CJ I think you meant a production of Momma Ichmial

Hayad Mohammad /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Kari

12-14-2003, 10:36 AM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
yeah kari, that´s what I was implying. It was the

US who played a mega vital role in making as powerful as he is/WAS. scary!

the planes don´t fly? Getting an

aircraft up and running is a piece of cake.

<hr /></blockquote>

Not if they

haven\'t been maintianed since Gulf I. Yeah, they literally can\'t get off the ground.

Elana

12-14-2003, 10:36 AM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
We often put and keep opressive regimes into

power, and turn a blind eye until they \"cross\" us. THEN we wage war, on the basis of human rights violations

that we blew off, when we were getting what we wanted. Gives us a very bad name.

<hr /></blockquote>
I agree, but I would guess that if the US went to take action against these groups now, many

people would scream that we are sticking our nose were it doesn\'t belong as they did when we entered Iraq.

Kari

12-14-2003, 10:38 AM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
yeah Bruce!
What do you think of Bush´s decision that most countries are

not `allowed´ to participate in the rebuilding process?
- that really annoyed me, because it´s not his decision to

make.

<hr /></blockquote>

It may not be nice of Bush, but I think the USA has the

right to spend its own tax money the way it wants... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

<hr

/></blockquote>

Well, there are two ways of looking at that, too. Our position is that

since we did the invasion, why shouldn\'t we reap the profits. That\'s fair.

On the other hand, the cronyism

and profiteering are starting to hit the fan. Cheney\'s company, Haliburton, just got nailed for bilking the

military out of millions.

CJ01

12-14-2003, 10:39 AM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
CJ I think you meant a production of Momma Ichmial

Hayad Mohammad

<hr /></blockquote> if it´s still ABBA, that´s fine by me

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

Kari

12-14-2003, 10:41 AM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
We often put and keep opressive regimes into power, and turn a blind eye

until they \"cross\" us. THEN we wage war, on the basis of human rights violations that we blew off, when we were

getting what we wanted. Gives us a very bad name.

<hr /></blockquote>
I agree, but I

would guess that if the US went to take action against these groups now, many people would scream that we are

sticking our nose were it doesn\'t belong as they did when we entered Iraq.

<hr /></blockquote>

Yep! We can\'t win. BUT, let\'s not keep giving money to regimes that we KNOW are

oppressive. Then later we get shot at with our own weapons.

BTW-- I wonder how history might have changed, had

Castro got his baseball contract? Remember? He tried out for pitcher in New York, aeons ago. I read he was REALLY

good. But, he didn\'t get selected.

MysteriousMan

12-14-2003, 10:45 AM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
Leaders like Castro, Saddam, and the former Afghan regime...The US

government was what gave them their power.

<hr /></blockquote> Yeah, we screwed up but we

still can\'t turn a blind eye to innocent people being bullied around. I see that a lot of people are pointing

fingers at the US. What do you suppose we do? Should we ignore what is going on in the rest of the world?

<hr

/></blockquote>

If you have power, you have the responsibility to use it. The USA have

this power, they must not ignore the rest of the world.

The problem is more the discrepancy between the words and

how the US government is acting. Back to the concrete example: About 20 years ago (I know, I should look up the

year), when Rumsfeld himself visited Saddam, shook his hands, gave him money, waepons and logistical support, Saddam

was no way better than he was later. The only difference is that the US government thought Saddam was useful.

So

doing the useful and talking humanity all the time usually doesn\'t fit together.

Best regards,

MysteriousMan

Holmes

12-14-2003, 10:45 AM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
Should we ignore what is going on in the rest of

the world?

<hr /></blockquote>

Hey, just as long as we don\'t have to deal with

India and Pakistan! Or (God forbid!) our own issues. That would be too much like work.

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

<blockquote>Quote:<hr

/>
Iraqi culture is MAGNIFICENT, BTW.

<hr /></blockquote>

That\'s true.

Holmes

Pancho1188

12-14-2003, 10:46 AM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
Leaders like Castro, Saddam, and the former Afghan regime...The US

government was what gave them their power.

<hr /></blockquote> Yeah, we screwed up but we

still can\'t turn a blind eye to innocent people being bullied around. I see that a lot of people are pointing

fingers at the US. What do you suppose we do? Should we ignore what is going on in the rest of the world?

<hr

/></blockquote>

Caution: This posting may piss people off. Seriously, don\'t read it if

you\'ll get upset. I\'m taking devil\'s advocate here to expand people\'s minds...this does not reflect

my actual viewpoint, I just want to take the other side to keep everyone thinking.

In a word: Yes. You

don\'t see extremists crashing planes into Canadian buildings, do you? What was the reason Bin Laden gave for

terrorizing us? (paraphrasing) \"For too long the US has meddled with our affairs and oppressed our people.\" If

we would\'ve left them alone, we wouldn\'t have two of our greatest buildings taken away from us and 10,000

lives lost. It wasn\'t long ago that the US had slavery, no women\'s rights, and a Civil War. Over 500,000

lives were lost, but it was for our own benefit. They fought for their freedom, and it made the victory oh so

sweet. If one country can solve their own problems, why can\'t others? Do you think the US would\'ve listened

if another country came in and said, \"Whites and blacks should get along...\" or \"You are oppressing your

women\"? The citizens would\'ve told them to go to hell. Seriously. Besides, doesn\'t the US have their own

problems?

\"I see no changes. Can\'t a brother get a little peace? There\'s war on the streets and the war

in the Middle East\" - Tupac

No one\'s sending hundreds of thousands of troops around to fight poverty in the

US. If we spent all of that money from the war on our own people, we might actually be on the way to removing

poverty.

The US does so much to help everyone else, and all they get for it is a bunch of countries bitching at

them for being arrogant. The countries it helps hate the US, and the leaders it helps go ballistic and turn on the

hand that fed them. So one may ask, is it worth it when we could be doing so much more with that money than killing

people?

End Note: Once again, I apologize if I offended anyone. I am just taking devil\'s advocate for the

sake of discussion. I hope no one is deeply upset by this posting. If so, I will remove it immediately. Thank

you.

Once again:
I\'m taking devil\'s advocate here to expand people\'s minds...this does not reflect

my actual viewpoint, I just want to take the other side to keep everyone thinking.

Elana

12-14-2003, 10:52 AM

Curious

Pancho...what did the 13 million innocent people killed in World War 2 do? How could they have changed their fate?

There are crazy people with a lot of power in this world. We sleep on our comfortable pillow every night. Let\'s

still remember the children that are sleeping on dirt floors. It\'s very self centered to pretend that they

don\'t exist just because we don\'t see them.

belgareth

12-14-2003, 10:54 AM

Panco

Rather than being upset, I for one appreciate and agree with your argument. We have children starving in

this country yet we spend our tax dollars starting a war for spurious reasons? Several people have made good points

about the real reasons we are there and frankly, we do not belong in Iraq. The world is a better place without

people like Saddam but we helped him get there in the first place. We are a democratic society yet we cannot abide

by the decisions of a world wide democracy we claim to support and go to war against the popular vote?

Elana

12-14-2003, 10:54 AM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
If we would\'ve left them alone, we wouldn\'t

have two of our greatest buildings taken away from us and 10,000 lives lost.

<hr /></blockquote>

Don\'t ever blame us for that. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gifWe were not

responsible for radical insane extremists taking down our buildings and ruining thousands of lives.

belgareth

12-14-2003, 10:57 AM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
Curious Pancho...what did the 13 million innocent

people killed in World War 2 do? How could they have changed their fate? There are crazy people with a lot of power

in this world. We sleep on our comfortable pillow every night. Let\'s still remember the children that are

sleeping on dirt floors. It\'s very self centered to pretend that they don\'t exist just because we don\'t see

them.

<hr /></blockquote>

How many of those children live withing 100 miles of you?

What do we owe them? Doesn\'t charity begin at home? Couldn\'t it have been done without killing all the

innocents? Should we have supported him and still be supporting others like him because it suits our business

interests?

Elana

12-14-2003, 10:58 AM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
Panco

Rather than being upset, I for one

appreciate and agree with your argument. We have children starving in this country yet we spend our tax dollars

starting a war for spurious reasons? Several people have made good points about the real reasons we are there and

frankly, we do not belong in Iraq. The world is a better place without people like Saddam but we helped him get

there in the first place. We are a democratic society yet we cannot abide by the decisions of a world wide democracy

we claim to support and go to war against the popular vote?

<hr /></blockquote>

Can

you see why it would be so unfair of me to say that we shouldn\'t get involved? What if the US never got involved

in WW2. I probably wouldn\'t be here today along with the rest of the 13 million Jews left in the world today.

Elana

12-14-2003, 11:00 AM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
Curious Pancho...what did the 13 million innocent people killed in World War

2 do? How could they have changed their fate? There are crazy people with a lot of power in this world. We sleep on

our comfortable pillow every night. Let\'s still remember the children that are sleeping on dirt floors. It\'s

very self centered to pretend that they don\'t exist just because we don\'t see them.

<hr

/></blockquote>

How many of those children live withing 100 miles of you? What do we owe

them? Doesn\'t charity begin at home? Couldn\'t it have been done without killing all the innocents? Should we

have supported him and still be supporting others like him because it suits our business interests?

<hr

/></blockquote>

I support many charities here at home. I am collection right now for a

popular cancer charity. I know what is going on in my backyard as well as on the other side of the globe.

CJ01

12-14-2003, 11:03 AM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
Well, there are two ways of looking at that, too.

Our position is that since we did the invasion, why shouldn\'t we reap the profits. That\'s fair.

<hr

/></blockquote> you already pointed out that USA played a more than vital role in creating

this problem saddam in the first place. So no, why should the US reap the benefits by getting rid off a disaster

which wouldn´t have been there if it wasn´t for them? I mean in this context, they kind of made up for a past

error!

It´s not about what´s fair to the USA ! It should be what´s good for Iraq now. Plus, because of

saddam´s regime, everyone else has been devrived of doing normal business with Iraq for a long time.

Another

important, maybe the most important point is this: If different nations get in there and help iraq now, the iraqi

people will get used to dealing with different countries much sooner. This will help, `integrate´them more into the

rest of the world. Am I making sense here?

They´ll learn to deal with other nations and perhaps feel more

comfortable and so on.

Elana

12-14-2003, 11:04 AM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
It´s not about what´s fair to the USA ! It should

be what´s good for Iraq now.

<hr /></blockquote>

That\'s right, CJ.

CJ01

12-14-2003, 11:09 AM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
Can you see why it would be so unfair of me to say

that we shouldn\'t get involved? What if the US never got involved in WW2. I probably wouldn\'t be here today

along with the rest of the 13 million Jews left in the world today.

<hr /></blockquote> hmmmm, I´m more optimistic! But you know, like what I said earlier, if the US had gotten a move

on YEARS sooner, more lives coulda been saved.
The other allies did a really great job in fighting the Nazis, in

fact they did the most work!
I really don´t want to take anything away from the americans but I´m sick to death of

hearing that THEY are the heros and THEY won the war - like france, britain and other countries didn´t do anything

at all!!! Nobody ever gives a mention to the many germans who fought the nazi regime either - that sucks!

Elana

12-14-2003, 11:13 AM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
I really don´t want to take anything away from the

americans but I´m sick to death of hearing that THEY are the heros and THEY won the war - like france, britain and

other countries didn´t do anything at all!!! Nobody ever gives a mention to the many germans who fought the nazi

regime either - that sucks!

<hr /></blockquote>

I couldn\'t care less about who

did what. As I said before, it is all about the end result. As fas as the Germans that helped the Jews in

WW2...there are huge memorials to them. Even in Israel\'s very sacred Yad Vashem there is a garden dedicated just

to them.

Holmes

12-14-2003, 11:19 AM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
Rather than being upset, I for one appreciate and

agree with your argument. We have children starving in this country yet we spend our tax dollars starting a war for

spurious reasons? Several people have made good points about the real reasons we are there and frankly, we do not

belong in Iraq. The world is a better place without people like Saddam but we helped him get there in the first

place. We are a democratic society yet we cannot abide by the decisions of a world wide democracy we claim to

support and go to war against the popular vote?

<hr /></blockquote>

Curious,

isn\'t it?

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
How many of those children live

withing 100 miles of you? What do we owe them? Doesn\'t charity begin at home? Couldn\'t it have been done

without killing all the innocents? Should we have supported him and still be supporting others like him because it

suits our business interests?

<hr /></blockquote>

Good questions.

Holmes

CJ01

12-14-2003, 11:20 AM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
Even in Israel\'s very sacred Yad Vashem there is

a garden dedicated just to them.

<hr /></blockquote> never been there

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Just had to mention all that because you only mentioned

the US and the others deserve the credit too!
And most people ignore the fact or don´t even know that not all

germans were nasty.

Elana

12-14-2003, 11:20 AM

You are

fooling yourself if you think the poorest children in this country are in the same situation of say the average

child of Iraq.

Pancho1188

12-14-2003, 11:21 AM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
Curious Pancho...what did the 13 million innocent

people killed in World War 2 do? How could they have changed their fate? There are crazy people with a lot of power

in this world. We sleep on our comfortable pillow every night. Let\'s still remember the children that are

sleeping on dirt floors. It\'s very self centered to pretend that they don\'t exist just because we don\'t see

them.

<hr /></blockquote>

Once again, I\'m taking devil\'s advocate here to

expand people\'s minds...this does not reflect my actual viewpoint, I just want to take the other side to

keep everyone thinking.

Oh, and PLEASE don\'t take anything I say as a personal attack because it\'s

not...

What does it matter how they sleep if they\'re happy? Having less doesn\'t necessarily mean

they\'re less happy. It\'s a US stereotype that less wealth = less happiness even though psychological studies

show that wealthy people are no happier than poor people.

The US put those crazy people into power...they also

put many of those crazy people into power by removing other crazy people from power...who\'s to say that another

crazy person won\'t rise after the fall of Saddam? The US hasn\'t had that problem because they solved their

problems internally. They didn\'t like how England was treating them, so they took over and made a government

that would be beneficial to all. Maybe they should let others do the same.

The 13 million people who died in

WWII died with dignity and purpose. Their deaths will forever be remembered as millions of brave souls who held

their beliefs in the face of death and will live on in eternity as the great people that they were. However, if

they didn\'t die, other people would\'ve. As in any \"What if you knew the future and could change the

present\" or \"What if you could kill Hitler before he rose to power, would you do it\" movie/tv show (Think

\"Dead Zone\", \"Quantum Leap\", \"Twilight Zone\", \"Early Edition\", etc.), changing one bad thing may

just lead to other bad things happening down the road. In the Twilight Zone case, the guy actually tried to stop

Hitler but couldn\'t because of \"fate\" or whatever. Also, the world is now a better place because of that

horrible incident. It\'s only after you experience the atrosity that you begin to value human life. (Sorry to

bring religion into this, but it\'s a good example) Just as Christians thank Jesus for dying for their sins to

make their lives better, maybe we should be thankful to those who lost their lives so we could see the light that we

should be helping each other instead of killing each other. Maybe we should see it in the positive light that the

world is now a better place because of these wonderful people instead of feeling guilt and pain over everything. I

know many people celebrate Martin Luther King day with pride and appreciation because he sacrificed his own life for

equality. I don\'t think he regretted it for a moment, and we should always keep these people in our

memory.

Okay, I\'m going off on a tangent and trying to be positive about everything, thus losing my

devil\'s advocacy... That\'s enough for today, I can\'t keep up an objective argument of this

magnitude any longer.

As always, my word of caution:
I\'m taking devil\'s advocate here to expand

people\'s minds...this does not reflect my actual viewpoint, I just want to take the other side to keep

everyone thinking.

PS: By defeating this argument, you are thus beating much of the adversity that stands in the

way of things. Remember, you must defeat the wrong and even outlandish views to get people to believe in your

cause. Hopefully by beating this argument, you can make your own stronger.

Kari

12-14-2003, 11:22 AM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
Well, there are two ways of looking at that, too. Our position is that since

we did the invasion, why shouldn\'t we reap the profits. That\'s fair.

<hr /></blockquote> you already pointed out that USA played a more than vital role in creating this problem saddam in

the first place. So no, why should the US reap the benefits by getting rid off a disaster which wouldn´t have been

there if it wasn´t for them? I mean in this context, they kind of made up for a past error!

It´s not about

what´s fair to the USA ! It should be what´s good for Iraq now. Plus, because of saddam´s regime, everyone else

has been devrived of doing normal business with Iraq for a long time.

Another important, maybe the most important

point is this: If different nations get in there and help iraq now, the iraqi people will get used to dealing with

different countries much sooner. This will help, `integrate´them more into the rest of the world. Am I making

sense here?

They´ll learn to deal with other nations and perhaps feel more comfortable and so on.

<hr

/></blockquote>

I\'m just pointing out both sides of the contracts arguement. what\'s

good for Iraq MAY NOT be US.

I DO think the Iraqi should be better off. I do not think we invaded for

humanitarian reasons, and I\'m not sure that 9-11 perpetrated by whom we said.

I think the whole thing smells,

and that we have to leave.

Elana

12-14-2003, 11:22 AM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
Even in Israel\'s very sacred Yad Vashem there is a garden dedicated just

to them.

<hr /></blockquote> never been there

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

<hr /></blockquote>

It\'s

heartbreaking. I never once made it all the way through. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif They

have one room that just reads the names of the all of children that were killed, with pictures. It\'s a nightmare.

Elana

12-14-2003, 11:23 AM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
What does it matter how they sleep if they\'re

happy?

<hr /></blockquote>

I have a feeling that for the most part, Iraqi children

are not very happy.

franki

12-14-2003, 11:23 AM

Pancho, how

about you say what YOU think? This whole \"playing the devil\'s advocate\" thing makes it very difficult to

argue with you..

Elana

12-14-2003, 11:24 AM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
Pancho, how about you say what YOU think. This

whole \"playing the devil\'s advocate\" thing makes it very difficult to argue with you..

<hr

/></blockquote>I agree. Pancho..tell us how you feel.

belgareth

12-14-2003, 11:25 AM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
Panco

Rather than being upset, I for one appreciate and agree with your

argument. We have children starving in this country yet we spend our tax dollars starting a war for spurious

reasons? Several people have made good points about the real reasons we are there and frankly, we do not belong in

Iraq. The world is a better place without people like Saddam but we helped him get there in the first place. We are

a democratic society yet we cannot abide by the decisions of a world wide democracy we claim to support and go to

war against the popular vote?

<hr /></blockquote>

Can you see why it would be so

unfair of me to say that we shouldn\'t get involved? What if the US never got involved in WW2. I probably

wouldn\'t be here today along with the rest of the 13 million Jews left in the world today.

<hr

/></blockquote>

Yes Elana, I understand your point. I also feel that Saddam was nowhere

near the threat Hitler was and we created the monster in the first place. Not only that, we are still supporting

other monsters similar to him. We should have not supported him and our dollars should not be going to support

others like him. The war in Iraq had nothing to do with whether he was killing his people, weapons of mass

destruction or even about 9-11. It is about money and power. If Saddam had not thwarted the US\'s demand for cheap

oil, we would not have been there at all.

I oppose sending billions of tax dollars around the world while

children go hungry in this country and people cannot afford proper medical care and senior citizens are forced to

eat cat food to survive and our military veterans get shafted and our social security system gets robbed to pay the

government\'s debts.

CJ01

12-14-2003, 11:25 AM

I wonder if my

relative(s) name is mentioned somewhere... I´ll never find I suppose.

Elana

12-14-2003, 11:26 AM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
The 13 million people who died in WWII died with

dignity and purpose. Their deaths will forever be remembered as millions of brave souls who held their beliefs in

the face of death and will live on in eternity as the great people that they were. However, if they didn\'t die,

other people would\'ve.

<hr /></blockquote> What a load of crap. Is that supposed to

make me feel better?

CJ01

12-14-2003, 11:28 AM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
Pancho, how about you say what YOU think? This

whole \"playing the devil\'s advocate\" thing makes it very difficult to argue with you..

<hr

/></blockquote> I understand where he´s coming from (I think).

Pancho1188

12-14-2003, 11:29 AM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
Pancho, how about you say what YOU think. This whole \"playing the

devil\'s advocate\" thing makes it very difficult to argue with you..

<hr /></blockquote>I agree. Pancho..tell us how you feel.

<hr /></blockquote>

I\'ll

get back to you on that. That whole \"devil\'s advocacy\" bit drained the life out of me. Seriously, that was

exhausting mentally and emotionally. I\'ll come back later when I\'m refreshed.

Holmes

12-14-2003, 11:30 AM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
I oppose sending billions of tax dollars around the

world while children go hungry in this country and people cannot afford proper medical care and senior citizens are

forced to eat cat food to survive and our military veterans get shafted and our social security system gets robbed

to pay the government\'s debts.

<hr /></blockquote>

I agree.

Holmes

Elana

12-14-2003, 11:30 AM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
Yes Elana, I understand your point. I also feel

that Saddam was nowhere near the threat Hitler was and we created the monster in the first place.

<hr

/></blockquote>

He may not be nowhere near Hilter\'s evil, but the thousands of mass

graves that they are finding show how horrible he was to his people.

Elana

12-14-2003, 11:34 AM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
I oppose sending billions of tax dollars around

the world while children go hungry in this country and people cannot afford proper medical care and senior citizens

are forced to eat cat food to survive and our military veterans get shafted and our social security system gets

robbed to pay the government\'s debts.

<hr /></blockquote> I understand your point

as well, but if we would stop spending tax money on say, meauring how fast ketchup flows from a bottle (yes, we

really do that) then we could take care of our own and the world ten times over. We waste so much money on pure

crap. We do need to take care of our own. No question about it.

CJ01

12-14-2003, 11:35 AM

I think he was

just as evil! But he didn´t evade all the neighbouring countries (well he did try kuwait, but ...)
Hitle was a

psycho, saddam´s just a sadistic pig /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif And I despise both of them

Kari

12-14-2003, 11:36 AM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
I oppose sending billions of tax dollars around the world while children go

hungry in this country and people cannot afford proper medical care and senior citizens are forced to eat cat food

to survive and our military veterans get shafted and our social security system gets robbed to pay the

government\'s debts.

<hr /></blockquote> I understand your point as well, but if we

would stop spending tax money on say, meauring how fast ketchup flows from a bottle (yes, we really do that) then we

could take care of our own and the world ten times over. We waste so much money on pure crap.

<hr

/></blockquote>

That\'s correct. We DO wate milllions on silly \"studies.\"

CJ01

12-14-2003, 11:37 AM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
I have a feeling that for the most part, Iraqi

children are not very happy.

<hr /></blockquote> No they´re not!!!!

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
We waste so much money on pure crap

<hr

/></blockquote> you got it! But what government does not?!

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif it´s totally nuts

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

Kari

12-14-2003, 11:38 AM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
<blockquote>Quote:<hr

/>
Panco

Rather than being upset, I for one appreciate and agree with your argument. We have children starving

in this country yet we spend our tax dollars starting a war for spurious reasons? Several people have made good

points about the real reasons we are there and frankly, we do not belong in Iraq. The world is a better place

without people like Saddam but we helped him get there in the first place. We are a democratic society yet we cannot

abide by the decisions of a world wide democracy we claim to support and go to war against the popular vote?

<hr /></blockquote>

Can you see why it would be so unfair of me to say that we

shouldn\'t get involved? What if the US never got involved in WW2. I probably wouldn\'t be here today along with

the rest of the 13 million Jews left in the world today.

<hr /></blockquote>

Yes

Elana, I understand your point. I also feel that Saddam was nowhere near the threat Hitler was and we created the

monster in the first place. Not only that, we are still supporting other monsters similar to him. We should have not

supported him and our dollars should not be going to support others like him. The war in Iraq had nothing to do with

whether he was killing his people, weapons of mass destruction or even about 9-11. It is about money and power. If

Saddam had not thwarted the US\'s demand for cheap oil, we would not have been there at all.

I oppose sending

billions of tax dollars around the world while children go hungry in this country and people cannot afford proper

medical care and senior citizens are forced to eat cat food to survive and our military veterans get shafted and our

social security system gets robbed to pay the government\'s debts.

<hr /></blockquote>

We also blew off the threat to the Jews, for a long time.

Holmes

12-14-2003, 11:38 AM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
We DO wate milllions on silly \"studies.\"

<hr /></blockquote>

But studies in Silliness could potentially bring the world

together!

Holmes

Kari

12-14-2003, 11:39 AM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
Studies in silliness could potentially bring the

world together.

Holmes

<hr /></blockquote>

Only if they involved the right

kinds of silliness. Like... sex.

Elana

12-14-2003, 11:42 AM

I can\'t

even remember how much money was spend on that whole Elian Gonzolez thing, but it was probably enough to feed a

third world country.

http://www.whattheheck.com/ebay/elian5.html (\"http://www.whattheheck.com/ebay/elian5.html\")

CJ01

12-14-2003, 11:49 AM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
But studies in Silliness could potentially bring

the world together!

<hr /></blockquote> but music´s better, and cheaper kinda!

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
When´s the casting for mamma mia gonna start?

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Elana

12-14-2003, 11:56 AM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
But studies in Silliness could potentially bring the world together!

<hr

/></blockquote> but music´s better, and cheaper kinda!

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
When´s the casting for mamma mia gonna start?

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

<hr

/></blockquote>

Habbib Mohammad is up for the role of Father Alexandrios.

Pancho1188

12-14-2003, 11:58 AM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
The 13 million people who died in WWII died with dignity and purpose. Their

deaths will forever be remembered as millions of brave souls who held their beliefs in the face of death and will

live on in eternity as the great people that they were. However, if they didn\'t die, other people would\'ve.

<hr /></blockquote> What a load of crap. Is that supposed to make me feel better?

<hr /></blockquote>

Okay, no warning on this one because this is me being

analytical. However, this does NOT mean I agree with what I said earlier, I\'m just using logic here to

explain that it\'s not so far-fetched.

Load of crap, you say? Think about it. Had the US not moved in at

all, Hitler would\'ve taken over Europe, went after Russia, and then came after the US and millions of people

would\'ve died. Had they moved in earlier, they would\'ve added to the melee and those 13 million dead people

would consist of more United States citizens, those in the German army, and people in the areas in which they would

have fought. Also, the US ended this war by dropping nuclear bombs on innocent people. They killed a bunch of

people, too. Does that make them any better?

As they say, the winners write the history books...

Elana

12-14-2003, 12:02 PM

You just

don\'t know when to quit

CJ01

12-14-2003, 12:05 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
Had the US not moved in at all, Hitler would\'ve

taken over Europe,

<hr /></blockquote> he´d already taken over most of it. But I have

more faith in the brits and french and other european countries. I kind of believe that hitler would have been

beaten sooner or later. BUT sooner is better than later!

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
The 13 million people who died in WWII died with dignity and purpose.

<hr /></blockquote> that really IS crap I agree with Elana

belgareth

12-14-2003, 12:07 PM

If the

nuclear weapons had not been used, how many more innocent people would have died? The equation is pretty lopsided,

it saved lives. Should we have invaded Germany earlier? IMO YES! But I still see a world of difference between

Hitler and Hussien. We had a major hand in creating Hussien and it should have never happened. We are making the

same mistake in other countries right now. We should stop supporting those monsters now instead of waiting until

they are no longer useful to us. Wrong is still wrong whether or not they give lip service to the US and our allies.

Once we lost control of Iraq we decided to attack them. Now that we have killed thousands of people we are

trying to make a profit out of it and use it as a bludgeon against other countries that felt we were in the wrong.

Just because you have military power does not justify the use of it.

franki

12-14-2003, 12:09 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
he´d already taken over most of it. But I have

more faith in the brits and french and other european countries. I kind of believe that hitler would have been

beaten sooner or later. BUT sooner is better than later!

<hr /></blockquote>

We would live in a communist Europe now if the Yankees would not have been involved.

Elana

12-14-2003, 12:10 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
We had a major hand in creating Hussien and it

should have never happened. We are making the same mistake in other countries right now. We should stop supporting

those monsters now instead of waiting until they are no longer useful to us. Wrong is still wrong whether or not

they give lip service to the US and our allies.

<hr /></blockquote>

I agree!

CJ01

12-14-2003, 12:12 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
But I still see a world of difference between

Hitler and Hussien.

<hr /></blockquote> yes there is! Hitler was some genius - one

reason he was so damn dangerous, that and the fact that he had some freudian issues with his mother, and was just a

totally unstable maniac!
Hitler started out as someone who was doing a lot of good thing for his country and then

turned round and went insane. Saddam´s a way different story.

Holmes

12-14-2003, 12:13 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
Just because you have military power does not

justify the use of it.

<hr /></blockquote>

Unless you have something to hide. Then, of

course, it\'s okay.

Holmes

CJ01

12-14-2003, 12:15 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
I think that\'s wrong. We would live in a

communist Europe now if the Yankees would not have been involved.

<hr /></blockquote>

NO! definately not I´m certain. But of course that´s what the americans feared at the time. And perhaps why

they´re still stationed in germany - to make sure it stays democratic. Yeah right, germany´s way more democratic

than the USA has been recently!

franki

12-14-2003, 12:15 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

Hitler started out as someone who was doing a

lot of good thing for his country and then turned round and went insane.

<hr /></blockquote>

Ouch! That is exactly what the (neo)-nazi\'s say these days... That man was insane FROM

THE BEGINNING. Saying things like that would put you in the far-right corner in Germany..

CJ01

12-14-2003, 12:20 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hitler started out as

someone who was doing a lot of good thing for his country and then turned round and went insane.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ouch! That is exactly

what the (neo)-nazi\'s say these days... That man was insane FROM THE BEGINNING. Saying things like that would put

you in the far-right corner in Germany..

<hr /></blockquote>
those are facts! Check

the history some more and you´ll see. and it would not put me into a right wing corner either!
You´re right though,

neo nazis do use this as an arguement.

Pancho1188

12-14-2003, 12:23 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
Just because you have military power does not justify the use of it.

<hr

/></blockquote>

Unless you have something to hide. Then, of course, it\'s

okay.

Holmes

<hr /></blockquote>

Or if you want economic gain, corporations

push you, or you\'re trying to be re-elected...

franki

12-14-2003, 12:29 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hitler started out as

someone who was doing a lot of good thing for his country and then turned round and went insane.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ouch! That is exactly

what the (neo)-nazi\'s say these days... That man was insane FROM THE BEGINNING. Saying things like that would put

you in the far-right corner in Germany..

<hr /></blockquote>
those are facts! Check

the history some more and you´ll see. and it would not put me into a right wing corner either!
You´re right though,

neo nazis do use this as an arguement.

<hr /></blockquote>

You have to admit he was

insane from the beginning. He wrote \"Mein Kampf\" with the idea of the \"Endlösung\" (killing of the jews) in

the early 1920s.

Holmes

12-14-2003, 12:33 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
You have to admit he was insane from the beginning.

He wrote \"Mein Kampf\" with the idea of the \"Endlösung\" (killing of the jews) in the early 1920s.

<hr

/></blockquote>

Did you know that Howard Stern was going to title his first book \"Mein

Kampf?\" What a hoot that would\'ve been.

Holmes

CJ01

12-14-2003, 12:38 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
You have to admit he was insane from the beginning.

He wrote \"Mein Kampf\" with the idea of the \"Endlösung\" (killing of the jews) in the early 1920s.

<hr

/></blockquote> yes, but people didn´t realize until it was too late. I mean I never read

`Mein Kampf´ btw but some stuff sounded really plausible to people back then for what ever reason.

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif
Remember that Hitler was a very convincing person, a very

pursuasive character, people believed him and when he started doing a lot of rebuilding work after WW1, people began

to trust him. They had a safety, food etc.
And that´s when he began brainwashing children at school etc.

creepy man. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

What I´m kinda trying to say is, we know now he

was insane but would we have known it if we´d have been there at the time?

CJ01

12-14-2003, 12:40 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
Did you know that Howard Stern was going to title

his first book \"Mein Kampf?\" What a hoot that would\'ve been.

<hr /></blockquote>

CRIKEY!!! His Kampf against what though?

Holmes

12-14-2003, 12:49 PM

His parents.

His peers. The entire broadcasting and entertainment industry. Poor guy.

Holmes

Pancho1188

12-14-2003, 12:59 PM

Okay,

I\'m going to tell you what I think now that I\'ve taken a break for a second.

1. \"Helping free the Iraqi

people\" was faaaaaaaaaar down on the list of things to accomplish with our conflict with Iraq. I\'d love to

think as Elana does that we\'re trying to help people, but I just don\'t believe it. I think Bush was fighting

his Daddy\'s war, corporations wanted cheaper oil, and Iraq was a scapegoat for the \'War on Terrorism\'. I

personally wish that oil companies would stop buying all of the patents regarding motor vehicles so we could produce

better cars and wouldn\'t have to rely on oil so much if at all.

2. I don\'t think things were AS BAD (note:

I don\'t say weren\'t bad at all) in Iraq as the media would have us believe. There are worse things going on

in the world such as Israeli, African, and South American conflicts where it\'s practically anarchy with all of

the free killing. At least Iraq had a little structure, demented as it may have been. However, Iraq wasn\'t in

the position to start a World War, so I think they overemphasized its danger to the world. You have to justify war

somehow.

3. I honestly believe we should leave the Middle East alone. We have not really accomplished much with

all of the money and sacrifices we\'ve made, and the Middle East hates us and we\'re just antagonizing them more

to send terrorists over here. If we were doing more good over there, I would disagree, but look at what we\'ve

done for the Israeli-Palestinian conflict: nothing. There HAS to be a better way than going over there and blowing

things up and killing people. Just like individual people, societies aren\'t going to listen to other societies

just because they said so or because we punish them. Attacking them will only make their hatred for us stronger and

they\'ll never want more human rights, better treatment of women, etc. I say look at Canada and tell me who\'s

taking a better stand on world affairs. Actually, that\'d be an interesting comparison.

That all being

said...

4. Saddam was a tool. I\'m glad he\'s gone.

5. I really hope we do well in helping reconstruct

the Iraqi government. There are some very good people over there, and I hope they work with us to build a great

nation that will support peace and maybe we can start getting better relations with the Middle East. HOWEVER, if we

push our personal beliefs onto their culture/government/society too much, I\'d be very distraught because contrary

to popular belief, I do not live in the perfect country and other people have good ideas, too.

6. Let\'s kick

some terroristic ass, but let\'s make sure we get the actual people responsible and stop making scapegoats.

7.

Everyone\'s right in that we should try to help, but we should take into account WHAT KIND OF HELP would be best

because obviously the current kind is causing a lot of death to our soldiers. Sometimes kicking ass and taking

names isn\'t the best strategy. (I just wanted to say \"Kicking ass and taking names\"

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif)

8. We should be trying to find alternative sources of fuel

rather than destroying entire countries for it.

9. I care more about the happiness of the people than what we

think is best for them. People DID live happy lives before electricity, four-star hotels, etc. Stop the killing

and oppression, give them freedom to live their lives, and hopefully they\'ll be able to be happy. THAT\'S

what\'s important.

I think that\'s good enough. There, now you know what I think. Oh, yeah...

10. I love

my country and my life and hope the best for others in countries who have to deal with a lot of violence as well. I

have a friend who\'s from Bolivia and she tells me about the blockades in her country preventing food from coming

in. Her people are starving. I hope and wish that things would turn out okay for those people and they get what

they need.

Hope this is better than my devil\'s advocate approach...

Pancho

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Pancho1188

12-14-2003, 01:00 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
His parents. His peers. The entire broadcasting and

entertainment industry. Poor guy.

Holmes

<hr /></blockquote>

Yeah,

boo, hoo. I really feel bad for the millionnaire. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

CJ01

12-14-2003, 01:00 PM

jesus, I´m gonna

have to take a day off to read this essay!

CJ01

12-14-2003, 01:01 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

His parents. His peers.

The entire broadcasting and entertainment industry. Poor guy.

Holmes

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yeah, boo, hoo. I

really feel bad for the millionaire.

<hr /></blockquote> he´s whining? I´ll swap his

account and health any day!

Holmes

12-14-2003, 01:05 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
Yeah, boo, hoo. I really feel bad for the

millionnaire. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

<hr /></blockquote>

I

know. Life\'s a biotch. (Or, for him, one biotch after another.) <sob>

Holmes

Pancho1188

12-14-2003, 01:08 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
Yeah, boo, hoo. I really feel bad for the millionnaire.

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

<hr /></blockquote>

I know.

Life\'s a biotch. (Or, for him, one biotch after another.) <sob>

Holmes

<hr /></blockquote>

Yeah, I\'d like to have women come up to me and want to undress/have sex with me...with my

luck that\'ll happen one time.....the day after I get married.......

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif Irony /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Kari

12-14-2003, 01:52 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
The 13

million people who died in WWII died with dignity and purpose. Their deaths will forever be remembered as millions

of brave souls who held their beliefs in the face of death and will live on in eternity as the great people that

they were. However, if they didn\'t die, other people would\'ve.

<hr /></blockquote>

What a load of crap. Is that supposed to make me feel better?

<hr /></blockquote>

Okay, no warning on this one because this is me being analytical. However, this does

NOT mean I agree with what I said earlier, I\'m just using logic here to explain that it\'s not so

far-fetched.

Load of crap, you say? Think about it. Had the US not moved in at all, Hitler would\'ve taken

over Europe, went after Russia, and then came after the US and millions of people would\'ve died. Had they moved

in earlier, they would\'ve added to the melee and those 13 million dead people would consist of more United States

citizens, those in the German army, and people in the areas in which they would have fought. Also, the US ended

this war by dropping nuclear bombs on innocent people. They killed a bunch of people, too. Does that make them any

better?

As they say, the winners write the history books...

<hr /></blockquote>

Well, here\'s a scary scenario....now that we\'ve deposed Saddam, whom we Imposed to begin

with..... what\'s to stop us from making another disastrous choice-- imposing another Saddam?

Kari

12-14-2003, 01:55 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
Just because

you have military power does not justify the use of it.

<hr /></blockquote>

Unless you

have something to hide. Then, of course, it\'s okay.

Holmes

<hr /></blockquote>

Or if you want economic gain, corporations push you, or you\'re trying to be re-elected...

<hr /></blockquote>

Yep. It\'s all about economics-- NOt humanitarianism.

BTW--

if you want to keep up with our latest foreign policy leanings, watch CFR publications. All of our last several

prexies and Sectys\' of State were CFR. And, thet\'re all white males-- including Consie Rice and Colin Powel.

<g>

CJ01

12-14-2003, 01:57 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

His parents. His peers.

The entire broadcasting and entertainment industry. Poor guy.

Holmes

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yeah, boo, hoo. I

really feel bad for the millionaire.

<hr /></blockquote> eeeeeeeeeeek!!!!!!!!!

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif I hope

they´ve learned by now!!! I mean they should have. They have, haven´t they?

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

In the meantime.....
....... there will be a kickass

Springsteen gig in the middle of the Iraqi desert and the casting of a musical with songs once recorded by a rather

famous swedish pop group is underway... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Kari

12-14-2003, 01:57 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
But I still see a world of difference between Hitler and Hussien.

<hr

/></blockquote> yes there is! Hitler was some genius - one reason he was so damn dangerous,

that and the fact that he had some freudian issues with his mother, and was just a totally unstable maniac!
Hitler

started out as someone who was doing a lot of good thing for his country and then turned round and went insane.

Saddam´s a way different story.

<hr /></blockquote>

Herr Schickelgruber was also VERY

quiet about his Jewish gramma.

CJ01

12-14-2003, 01:58 PM

his grammar?

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Kari

12-14-2003, 02:00 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
his grammar?

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

<hr /></blockquote>

His grandmama.

He also never figures out that \"Aryan\" actually refers to Iranians-- not North Germans.

Elana

12-14-2003, 02:01 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
his grammar? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

<hr

/></blockquote>

His grandmama. He also never figures out that \"Aryan\" actually refers

to Iranians-- not North Germans.

<hr /></blockquote>

His Grandmother was Jewish?

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif
I thought that his father was a nazi. Yes?

Elana

12-14-2003, 02:02 PM

oh nevermind

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif I thought you were talking about Arnold

Kari

12-14-2003, 02:04 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
his grammar?

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

<hr /></blockquote>

His grandmama.

He also never figures out that \"Aryan\" actually refers to Iranians-- not North Germans.

<hr

/></blockquote>

His Grandmother was Jewish?

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif
I thought that his father was a nazi. Yes?

<hr

/></blockquote>

Alois Hitler was a fairly apolitical brutal drunk. He enjoyed beating his

wife and little \'Dolf.

VERY nasty family-- which may be why he ended up porking (and murdering) his pretty

niece, Geli.

Kari

12-14-2003, 02:08 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
You have to admit he was insane from the beginning. He wrote \"Mein

Kampf\" with the idea of the \"Endlösung\" (killing of the jews) in the early 1920s.

<hr

/></blockquote> yes, but people didn´t realize until it was too late. I mean I never read

`Mein Kampf´ btw but some stuff sounded really plausible to people back then for what ever reason.

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif
Remember that Hitler was a very convincing person, a very

pursuasive character, people believed him and when he started doing a lot of rebuilding work after WW1, people began

to trust him. They had a safety, food etc.
And that´s when he began brainwashing children at school etc.

creepy man. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

What I´m kinda trying to say is, we know now he

was insane but would we have known it if we´d have been there at the time?

<hr /></blockquote>

Well, our govt knew it. In fact, the U.S., and some of the European countries limited Jewish

immigration, so that fleeing Jews would be forced to go to what was then called Palestine.

BTW-- some highly

placed folks supported Hitler-- Walt Disney, Gary Cooper, Joe Kennedy, King Edward (the one who abdicated).

Kari

12-14-2003, 02:10 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
His parents. His peers. The entire broadcasting and entertainment industry.

Poor guy.

Holmes

<hr /></blockquote>

His struggle against his tiny dick (his

words).

Yeah, boo, hoo. I really feel bad for the millionnaire.

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

<hr /></blockquote>

CJ01

12-14-2003, 02:10 PM

Man, Saddam

apparantly had a very similar upbringing. No excuse mind. And no excuse for making your children go throught the

same and also become the way they did

If women ruled the world.......

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Kari

12-14-2003, 02:11 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
Man, Saddam apparantly had a very similar

upbringing. No excuse mind. And no excuse for making your children go throught the same and also become the way

they did

If women ruled the world....... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

<hr /></blockquote>

Agreed!

Kari

12-14-2003, 02:13 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
Had the US not moved in at all, Hitler would\'ve taken over Europe,

<hr /></blockquote> he´d already taken over most of it. But I have more faith in the

brits and french and other european countries. I kind of believe that hitler would have been beaten sooner or

later. BUT sooner is better than later!

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
The

13 million people who died in WWII died with dignity and purpose.

<hr /></blockquote>

that really IS crap I agree with Elana

<hr /></blockquote>

And, while we are talking

about murdered Jews, let\'s not forget gypsys, gays, and \"defectives\" (disabled people).

Kari

12-14-2003, 02:14 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
he´d already taken over most of it. But I have more faith in the brits and

french and other european countries. I kind of believe that hitler would have been beaten sooner or later. BUT

sooner is better than later!

<hr /></blockquote>

We would live in a communist

Europe now if the Yankees would not have been involved.

<hr /></blockquote>

Maybe,

but the Yanks have to eschew becoming the new Roman Empire. Or, England, during the Raj.

CJ01

12-14-2003, 02:16 PM

Henri Ford is

said to have had a porblem with jewish people. i only found this out very recently and was fairly dissappointed to

say the least! He´s been someone I´ve admired for a long time.

Having said that, those guys you mentioned kari,

are pretty dead and I like to think that they just didn´t know any better - ?

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif They may realize ( not just those ) what a load of bull it all

was/is if they were still alive.
Or I´m too optimistic /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
Well, our govt knew it. In fact, the U.S., and

some of the European countries limited Jewish immigration, so that fleeing Jews would be forced to go to what was

then called Palestine.

<hr /></blockquote> that was MUCH later!!

franki

12-14-2003, 02:17 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

Maybe, but the Yanks have to eschew becoming

the new Roman Empire.

<hr /></blockquote>

Yup.

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Kari

12-14-2003, 02:19 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
Okay, I\'m going to tell you what I think now

that I\'ve taken a break for a second.

1. \"Helping free the Iraqi people\" was faaaaaaaaaar down on the list

of things to accomplish with our conflict with Iraq. I\'d love to think as Elana does that we\'re trying to

help people, but I just don\'t believe it. I think Bush was fighting his Daddy\'s war, corporations wanted

cheaper oil, and Iraq was a scapegoat for the \'War on Terrorism\'. I personally wish that oil companies would

stop buying all of the patents regarding motor vehicles so we could produce better cars and wouldn\'t have to rely

on oil so much if at all.

2. I don\'t think things were AS BAD (note: I don\'t say weren\'t bad at all) in

Iraq as the media would have us believe. There are worse things going on in the world such as Israeli, African, and

South American conflicts where it\'s practically anarchy with all of the free killing. At least Iraq had a little

structure, demented as it may have been. However, Iraq wasn\'t in the position to start a World War, so I think

they overemphasized its danger to the world. You have to justify war somehow.

3. I honestly believe we should

leave the Middle East alone. We have not really accomplished much with all of the money and sacrifices we\'ve

made, and the Middle East hates us and we\'re just antagonizing them more to send terrorists over here. If we

were doing more good over there, I would disagree, but look at what we\'ve done for the Israeli-Palestinian

conflict: nothing. There HAS to be a better way than going over there and blowing things up and killing people.

Just like individual people, societies aren\'t going to listen to other societies just because they said so or

because we punish them. Attacking them will only make their hatred for us stronger and they\'ll never want more

human rights, better treatment of women, etc. I say look at Canada and tell me who\'s taking a better stand on

world affairs. Actually, that\'d be an interesting comparison.

That all being said...

4. Saddam was a tool.

I\'m glad he\'s gone.

5. I really hope we do well in helping reconstruct the Iraqi government. There are

some very good people over there, and I hope they work with us to build a great nation that will support peace and

maybe we can start getting better relations with the Middle East. HOWEVER, if we push our personal beliefs onto

their culture/government/society too much, I\'d be very distraught because contrary to popular belief, I do not

live in the perfect country and other people have good ideas, too.

6. Let\'s kick some terroristic ass, but

let\'s make sure we get the actual people responsible and stop making scapegoats.

7. Everyone\'s right in

that we should try to help, but we should take into account WHAT KIND OF HELP would be best because obviously the

current kind is causing a lot of death to our soldiers. Sometimes kicking ass and taking names isn\'t the best

strategy. (I just wanted to say \"Kicking ass and taking names\"

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif)

8. We should be trying to find alternative sources of fuel

rather than destroying entire countries for it.

9. I care more about the happiness of the people than what we

think is best for them. People DID live happy lives before electricity, four-star hotels, etc. Stop the killing

and oppression, give them freedom to live their lives, and hopefully they\'ll be able to be happy. THAT\'S

what\'s important.

I think that\'s good enough. There, now you know what I think. Oh, yeah...

10. I love

my country and my life and hope the best for others in countries who have to deal with a lot of violence as well. I

have a friend who\'s from Bolivia and she tells me about the blockades in her country preventing food from coming

in. Her people are starving. I hope and wish that things would turn out okay for those people and they get what

they need.

Hope this is better than my devil\'s advocate approach...

Pancho

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

<hr /></blockquote>

I\'m down

with everything Pancho said.

How about \'Nam, BTW? Remember the Domino Theory? (If we lose Nam, all of Asia

will fall to Communism)

58,000 dead Americans. We got our butts kicked, because the Vietnamese didn\'t WANT to

be \"liberated.\" All for opium control. Which, we didn\'t get.

Elana

12-14-2003, 02:20 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
And, while we are talking about murdered Jews,

let\'s not forget gypsys, gays, and \"defectives\" (disabled people).

<hr /></blockquote> Yes and Poles as well. That\'s why I said the number was closer to 13 million.

Kari

12-14-2003, 02:22 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
Henri Ford is said to have had a porblem with

jewish people. i only found this out very recently and was fairly dissappointed to say the least! He´s been

someone I´ve admired for a long time.

Having said that, those guys you mentioned kari, are pretty dead and I like

to think that they just didn´t know any better - ? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif They may

realize ( not just those ) what a load of bull it all was/is if they were still alive.
Or I´m too optimistic

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

<blockquote>Quote:<hr

/>
Well, our govt knew it. In fact, the U.S., and some of the European countries limited Jewish immigration, so

that fleeing Jews would be forced to go to what was then called Palestine.

<hr /></blockquote> that was MUCH later!!

<hr /></blockquote>

Nope-- simultaneous.

The Baron de Rothschild helped muscle it through.

I forgot about Ford. Yes, he was another American

industrialist who blamed the Jews for economic problems. And, he was a Nazi sympathizer.

I HOPE they didn\'t

know any better....... but......

Kari

12-14-2003, 02:24 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
And, while we are talking about murdered Jews, let\'s not forget gypsys,

gays, and \"defectives\" (disabled people).

<hr /></blockquote> Yes and Poles as

well. That\'s why I said the number was closer to 13 million.

<hr /></blockquote>

germany was in an economic downturn. Hitler blamed the Jews, using the myth that they

\"control the money\" (Merchant of Venice syndrome).

Kari

12-14-2003, 02:26 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

Maybe, but the Yanks have to eschew becoming the new Roman Empire.

<hr /></blockquote>

This being said, I, like Pancho, do love my country very deeply.

But, her [censored] government drives me [censored] crazy!

Yup.

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

<hr /></blockquote>

CJ01

12-14-2003, 02:26 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Well, our govt knew it.

In fact, the U.S., and some of the European countries limited Jewish immigration, so that fleeing Jews would be

forced to go to what was then called Palestine.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

that was MUCH later!!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Nope-- simultaneous.

The Baron de Rothschild helped muscle it through.

<hr /></blockquote> are we really

talking about the same time period? I´ve been refering to the time before WW2 started.

Elana

12-14-2003, 02:27 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
Hitler blamed the Jews, using the myth that they

\"control the money\" (Merchant of Venice syndrome).

<hr /></blockquote>

Till

this day, anti-Semites still spout that crap.

Kari

12-14-2003, 02:28 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Well, our govt knew it.

In fact, the U.S., and some of the European countries limited Jewish immigration, so that fleeing Jews would be

forced to go to what was then called Palestine.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

that was MUCH later!!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Nope-- simultaneous.

The Baron de Rothschild helped muscle it through.

<hr /></blockquote> are we really

talking about the same time period? I´ve been refering to the time before WW2 started.

<hr

/></blockquote>

Yes. Same period.

CJ01

12-14-2003, 02:28 PM

kari, it´s kinda

pointless to post quotes when you´re not making some kind of reply y´know

franki

12-14-2003, 02:29 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
Hitler blamed the Jews, using the myth that they \"control the money\"

(Merchant of Venice syndrome).

<hr /></blockquote>

Till this day,

anti-Semites still spout that crap.

<hr /></blockquote>

Not only anti-semites,

also people like you and me Elana(I have proof /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif ), albeit

jokingly.. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Kari

12-14-2003, 02:29 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
kari, it´s kinda pointless to post quotes when

you´re not making some kind of reply y´know

<hr /></blockquote>

Oh! Did I do that?

I\'m sorry!

franki

12-14-2003, 02:31 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
Oh! Did I do that? I\'m sorry!

<hr

/></blockquote>

No, she doesn\'t do that. What Kari does is leave the quote tags at

places that they don\'t belong so that it looks likes she doesn\'t write anything new, while she does write

something.

Kari

12-14-2003, 02:34 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Well, our govt knew it.

In fact, the U.S., and some of the European countries limited Jewish immigration, so that fleeing Jews would be

forced to go to what was then called Palestine.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

that was MUCH later!!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Nope-- simultaneous.

The Baron de Rothschild helped muscle it through.

<hr /></blockquote> are we really

talking about the same time period? I´ve been refering to the time before WW2 started.

<hr

/></blockquote>

Yep. Just pre-bellum.

Kari

12-14-2003, 02:35 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
Oh! Did I do that? I\'m sorry!

<hr /></blockquote>

No, she doesn\'t do that. What Kari does is leave the quote tags at places that they

don\'t belong so that it looks likes she doesn\'t write anything new, while she does write something.

<hr

/></blockquote>

I apologize. I will have to be more careful.

koolking1

12-14-2003, 04:35 PM

I really

doubt Saddam Hussein was \"hiding\" in that hole. My best guess is that he was captured a while ago and his

captors hid him away till they could contact the USA forces and assure themselves of the 25 million dollars. You

might ask \"what about the 750,000.00 he had on him\"? I would say that: would you carry Saddam around in your

back pocket or 750,000 - both items were safe till the right people made it there to his \"hiding\" place.

Propaganda lives on.

jimhoff

12-14-2003, 06:24 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
I would be a hypocrite if I said that the US should

ignore the atrocities that went on under Saddams reign. Even if he had nothing to do with 9/11, we still can\'t

sit blindly by while thousands (millions) of innocent people are killed. I just wish that people would have stepped

in fasting during the World War II/holocaust before over 6 million (I think the number was closer to 13 million

total) people were killed. Just because it isn\'t going on in our own backyard doesn\'t give us the right to

ignore it. JMHO

<hr /></blockquote>

Very well said....

belgareth

12-14-2003, 06:45 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
I really doubt Saddam Hussein was \"hiding\" in

that hole. My best guess is that he was captured a while ago and his captors hid him away till they could contact

the USA forces and assure themselves of the 25 million dollars. You might ask \"what about the 750,000.00 he had

on him\"? I would say that: would you carry Saddam around in your back pocket or 750,000 - both items were safe

till the right people made it there to his \"hiding\" place. Propaganda lives on.

<hr /></blockquote>

Do you base that on some information you have or is it just supposition? Conspiracy theories

usually are pretty poorly laid out and hard to believe from a purely logical viewpoint. that\'s not to say I

believe much of anything from our government but your idea sounds a bit far fetched.

jimhoff

12-14-2003, 08:16 PM

with top

secret operations like this one, there are likely to be things going on behind the scenes that we will never know

about. However, I don\'t think that we have had him captured for a while. I guess everyone is entitled to their

own opinions. Go and watch A&E for a while. There are lots of speculative stories about JFK, Monroe, man on

the moon..... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

belgareth

12-14-2003, 10:20 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
with top secret operations like this one, there are

likely to be things going on behind the scenes that we will never know about. However, I don\'t think that we

have had him captured for a while. I guess everyone is entitled to their own opinions. Go and watch A&E for a

while. There are lots of speculative stories about JFK, Monroe, man on the moon.....

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

<hr /></blockquote>

And the flat

earth society is still alive and well too. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

EXIT63

12-15-2003, 04:21 AM

Hey, don\'t

try and tell me the Earth is round!

Kari

12-15-2003, 08:56 AM

Well, you gotta

give Saddam credit for chutzpah. He told his captors he is \"willing to negotiate.\"

CJ01

12-15-2003, 08:57 AM

He wouldn´t dare,

too embarrassing! We all know that you fall off when´ve reached the horizon and you go too far to say, find a new

country /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

CJ01

12-15-2003, 08:58 AM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
He told his captors he is \"willing to

negotiate.\"

<hr /></blockquote> taking the piss or what!

Pancho1188

12-15-2003, 09:55 AM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
He told his captors he is \"willing to negotiate.\"

<hr

/></blockquote> taking the piss or what!

<hr /></blockquote>

Anyone is willing to negotiate when they know they\'re probably going to die.

Kari

12-15-2003, 10:09 AM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
He told his

captors he is \"willing to negotiate.\"

<hr /></blockquote> taking the piss or what!

<hr /></blockquote>

Anyone is willing to negotiate when they know they\'re probably

going to die.

<hr /></blockquote>

Not that he\'s in much of a position to bargain.

(OK, Franki-- did I put the quote marks in the right places? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

tallmacky

12-15-2003, 10:17 PM

Yep, a lot

of politics and such, but it wasn\'t as if a type of \"Mother Theresa\" figure was the center of this.

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif Good to read.

Sagacious1420

12-16-2003, 02:52 AM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
Anyone is willing to negotiate when they know

they\'re probably going to die.

<hr /></blockquote>

Kari

12-16-2003, 05:02 AM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
Anyone is willing to negotiate when they know they\'re probably going to

die.

<hr /></blockquote>

<hr /></blockquote>

Heard on

the news that the old fart is stonewalling, but his associates are \"singing like a flock of canaries.\"

Maybe

we\'ll have another quasi-Nuremberg?

koolking1

12-16-2003, 08:05 AM

you never

know, he may have something to trade. I wouldn\'t be surprised if he does.

Icarus

12-16-2003, 08:16 AM

Baseball

cards.

Or Pokemon, perhaps.

Crafty old Saddam, eh?

CJ01

12-16-2003, 08:24 AM

torture devices,

stolen goods, mars bars.. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

koolking1

12-16-2003, 08:23 PM

didn\'t

he have like a bevy of wives? Up for a trade anybody?

Kari

12-17-2003, 06:51 AM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
didn\'t he have like a bevy of wives? Up for a

trade anybody?

<hr /></blockquote>

Yeah, apparently one of his wives was one of the

people who busted his ass.