Question for JAMES V. KOHL!!!

[dalesalsa82]

You

have stated from your research that you believe that homosexuality is a result of the wrong VNO on a person and they

respond to pheromones differently than a normal person? I\'m I correct here? So then could that person then be

turned \"straight\" if their VNO were removed?
Also would it be possible to even do a VNO TRANSPLANT?

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif I know it sounds crazy but could it be done?
Thank you

[tallmacky]

That

doesn\'t sound very proven or factual. The wrong VNO?

It\'s almost agreed upon that homosexuality,

actual full homosexuality is possibly genetically based. It\'s part of that persons inner workings. A VNO problem

does not explain homosexuality in the least bit. An effect of homosexuality may be a varying VNO, or say one that is

attracted to other male or female pheromone scents of the same sex, an effect. I doubt it could be the \"cause\".

It is hard to point to other signs as homosexuality looks and behavior can vary. Sterotypically a man with a

noticible and often thought of \"gay\" pitch in his voice. Sometimes physical appearence which could most likely

be related to hormones and things that as of now I am not sure anyone fully understands. The premise that your VNO

is out of sync or not working which will lead to \"choosing\" homosexuality is kind of ridiculous. I am sure there

are those out there that also are blind and know if they like boobs over weiner. The body is great at adapting,

it\'s one of our better qualities some are better at it than others, I think if your vno was not functioning you

would simply rely more on your other senses to detect a mate, instead of it skewing your choice. Similar again to a

blind person who\'s sense of touch is much more than a normal seeing person.

I may take up that argument if

we had not seen in the past attempts at such and the utter failure, it\'s most likely something deeper...at a

genetic level. Though I am not a doctor (if it matters /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif) so I

can\'t say I have the answer either. The VNO would be a pointless place to hide the possible cause of

homosexuality. There are variations in a lot of things and different degrees of that. Is a false VNO the cause of

transgenders and hermaphrodites? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif If one can look at a transgender

as an actual genetic effect why not a homosexual? It blinds and shows people\'s true and somewhat primitive

nature. Many will look and not see anything different physically in gays to themselves so they chalk it up to, other

reasons. Such as seeing a doc, changing somehow, confusion, and et cetera.

I am not trying to be too

forward, but it seems as if this is a personal issue of yours? Up until recently there was much disagreement about

even the existence of the VNO and a transplant is at this point impossible. Even if it was possible to do, I doubt

it would change a thing.

[tallmacky]

Even

my opinion is just that. I think it is somewhat educated but, a \"gay\" gene, sounds much too simple maybe a

combination of certain genetic factors which could lead to a final solution. Then again we are talking about actual

homosexuals. Those from early childhood who have felt like homosexuals. I have not factored in any possible classic

enviromental issues and/or abuse. Which is used as the classic prostitution theory. I believe there was a study

about men who had a foot fetished and found their location of certain areas of pleasure and I forget the other half

of the solution, were closer or more interconnected. So it could be an effect of brain wiring.

Still too

simple? Maybe a combination of brain wiring and actual genes or something unknown to me. In theory it is possible to

change the wiring or way your brain works.... but very doubtful. Try to make a straight man gay...I doubt that would

work with any effect even if you gave him a \"gay\" VNO /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif Some

things are more softwired, such as expanded on your views, learning a new task. Others are more hardwired as this

seems to be. I was not trying to through out JVK\'s theory\'s if what you stated were his, but just questioning

something that\'s solution seems too simple and one dimensional.


--------------------------------------------
P.S.

Oh yes, other illness\'s and I am not trying to

call homosexuality that, are similar in findings to. Think about issues/diseases such as ADD, OCD (I can relate to

ocd heh), and many others. OCD does not make a person look any different from another, it\'s effects are within,

often hard for others to understand. It is also known that these disease follow a genetic and genetic inheritance

pattern. Genes are at play here, disposing or altering one\'s self. I heard that enviroment or a illness like the

flu can start or ignite ocd behavior, but it has been shown that genetic disposition or effect and enviroment have

an impact...not an exact situation to the above but somewhat close.

[Bruce]

Guys,
I

am tempted to delete this thread because it makes homosexuality look like some sort of disease, which is generally

offensive to folks of that orientation, and certainly not what James had in mind. I\'ll drop JVK an email and he

can explain his position for himself, but in a nutshell I believe his the point to be that (research has shown) gays

are attracted to a unique set of pheromones, with which they can identify one another. I am quite sure it was not

meant to be a medical discovery through which homosexuality could be \"cured\".

Wherever this thread goes,

please do not turn it into a discussion about the validity of homosexuality.

Thanks,
Bruce

[belgareth]

Scientists have long wondered at the reasons for homosexuality. If it does have something to do with the VNO or

genetics it would put to rest all the nonsense that it is a choice or something wrong with the persons thought

processes. Then it would be little different from being left handed, which certainly is not an illness. We learned a

long time ago about the futility of trying to force a left handed person to use act as if they were right handed,

the same would apply to sexual preferences. I am not a physician but from my limited knowledge don\'t see any

reason that sexual preference could not be related to the way the VNO is wired into the brain. Assuming the VNO does

function, our earliest impression, formed while the brain is still developing, would have the potential of affecting

our sexual orientation for the rest of our lives. It would become part of our hard wired functionality.

While a

person\'s sexual orientation is strictly a personal matter, the reasons for a behavoir are worth discovering if

for no better reason than to increase our understanding of the world around us. The biggest problem with continuing

this discussion are the long held (and IMO ridiculous) bias against people with different preferences.

[bjf]

The biggest

problem with continuing this discussion are the long held (and IMO ridiculous) bias against people with different

preferences. >>>

But that shouldn\'t stop the discussion

[tallmacky]

I see

what you mean belgareth about the situation. The initial question asked had to involve a more explanation due to

what I thought was a misunderstanding of the basis of what we are talking about. I was relating it to other

situations, and said that they do not line up perfectly.

Hah, I know what you mean about the left handed

thing, I am left handed and like the issue discussed people sometimes just don\'t get IT! They don\'t see

anything on the outside to judge or make some argument on so you get a lot of \"Oh, your left handed (weird

look)\" or \"How do you write like that\" /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif. It\'s not harsh

just an example how most people\'s empathy may not be as high./ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[franki]

</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />


Hah, I know what you mean about the left handed

thing, I am left handed

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

Hahahaha

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[belgareth]

</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
The biggest problem with continuing this discussion

are the long held (and IMO ridiculous) bias against people with different preferences. &gt;&gt;&gt;

But that

shouldn\'t stop the discussion

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

It should not stop the

discussion. I hope we can look at it from a scientific standpoint without acting like there is something wrong with

gay people. The differences is what makes life interesting and persecuting a single subset for something as personal

and private as sexual preferences is well below the people in this forum.

[Holmes]

</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
The differences is what makes life interesting.



<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

It takes a village, people!


Holmes

[dalesalsa82]

YO

YO YOO!!! hold up jaja Where the hell in my question does it say that I\'m gay TallMacky?!

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif Don\'t get me

wrong you sound smart and all....but your not my type buddy! lol No but serously...I\'m taking a phycology class

in college and we saw a video in which they explained that the human body gets 2 spikes of testosterone while it is

in the Fetal stages. One turn the body into a male body and the other is said to affect the brain and turn the

brain into a male brain. So they think this shows scientific evidence on how the male and female brain are

different. (run-on sentence from hell, yea I know..jeje) But also that gay people may not get that second spike.


I just wanted to know what \"Scientific\" facts you guys got because it would make very interesting

comnversation in class.
Later...
Oh and I didn\'t mean to sound like homosexuality is a desease and yadayada.

(I guess I can see how you came to that but no, not it)

[bjf]

Now we

know!!! If you have a gay son, yes it really was your fault!!! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif So parents

don\'t complain!

[Elana]

I

haven\'t even read this thread yet, but I just felt an urgent need to make one thing crystal clear. Tallmacky is

one of the least judgmental people that I know. I can stake my life on it that Jason in no way feels that there is

anything wrong or deviant about gay people.

OK....carry on

[tallmacky]

Sorry

bro, if you read your first post it is kind of quasi (couldn\'t tell). I just figured I would go with the long

explanation and reassurance.

</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
2 spikes of

testosterone while it is in the Fetal stages. One turn the body into a male body and the other is said to affect the

brain and turn the brain into a male brain. So they think this shows scientific evidence on how the male and female

brain are different. (run-on sentence from hell, yea I know..jeje)

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">



That sounds like a good theory, as in other theory\'s sound beautiful to the point that they have to be

true. Of course I have no idea. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif With the explanation you give I

still don\'t see how it relates to the VNO? It seems somewhat accurate, more of a position of the hormones and

mind. I doubt the lineage of a actual \"homosexual\" gene, maybe again certain genetic dispositions that increase

the probability of what you said above occurring. The numbers seem far to high to be an actual inherited \"gene\",

instead as your professor put it this seems more real. Infact the make up of the VNO or what it is attracted to is

still an effect, of a greater change.

Not your type? pfff

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

I am sure many of the guys here who have dabbled in the

-mones can tell you what they have seen. I have gotten stares from other guys, but I doubt the bulk were even gay, a

high amount of -none and such. Probably more of shock...there was a post about this a bit ago I will try to find the

thread for you bro.

p.s. ahh too nice elana. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif

[CptKipling]

There

was a program on TV about this a while ago (possibly years actually).

One of the things that I remember is that

it said that, in theory, if you have a series of sons, the one born last is the most likely to be gay.

Just

another (possible) pearl of wisdom /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif



/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Mtnjim]

As I

vaguely remember (at my age any memory will be vague /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif ), JVK stated

that the ~rone production in gays was closer to a woman\'s than a man\'s.Cause or effect?? Who knows.

[jvkohl]

It\'s

the ratio of -rone to another metabolite of DHEA: etiocholanolone that correlates with male homosexuality. Of

course, there\'s much more to it than that; I just happen to be finishing a journal article on this for Hormones

and Behavior that\'s due Dec 1. Hopefully it will be accepted for publication; if not--you all will still see it

somehow. An earlier version is available on line at the Across Species Comparisons and Psychopathology website in

their bulletin. Search the June 2002 and December 2002 issues for more information about pheromones and

homosexuality than anyone could ever want.

I want to reiterate what Bruce said: homosexuality is as natural as

heterosexuality; it\'s just a variation on the theme of sexual development. Simply put, you can take the same

mammalian model I use to explain heterosexual behavior and also use it to explain homosexual behavior (based on

differences in the sexual differentiation of key structures in the brain. For more info on this, some of you may

wish to read the latest journal article on homosexual rams. Not an easy read, but very informative. Homosexual

rams--get it? There are more than 450 species that exhibit homosexual behavior, so that makes it difficult for most

reasonable people to think that in humans it\'s a lifestyle choice. But then, not everyone is reasonable. More

people will be once they read my next journal article, for sure.

Cut and past the following URL info to get to

the article, or do a search for Roselli, C on medline to get the October 2003

abstract

http://endo.endojournals.org/cgi/content/a

bstract/ (\"http://endo.endojournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/\")
en.2003-1098v1?maxtoshow=&amp;HITS=10&amp;hits=10
&amp;RESULTFORMAT=&amp;author1=roselli&amp;search

id=
1069824406740_896&amp;stored_search=&amp;FIRSTINDEX
=0&amp;sortspec=relevance&amp;journalcode=endo