Morality, Maturity and Mones [Archive] - Love-Scent Pheromones Forum

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Ash

11-17-2003, 09:35 PM

It\'s been

awhile since morality and mone use have been addressed specifically as a Thread Topic. With all the newer members

now with us I thought it would be a good time to discus the issue. I am most interested to read the thoughts on this

subject from some of these newer and younger, teenage and early 20\'s, members.

I have been using mones

with both social and (finally) sexual success for the past 6 months or so. With the social mixes I use, my life is

much better all the way around. People are happy to be around me and very friendly toward me. I am a nice person but

a bit reclusive and mone\'s have made social interaction very easy for me. My world is different now. I don\'t

see a morality issue at all in the positive reactions I get from using mone\'s socially.

As for my sexual

success with mone\'s, Hmmm,,, here we go.

I have had one sexual (semi on-going) relationship using

mone\'s. There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that the relationship would never have happened were it not for

mone\'s!!!! The woman is 17 years younger than me and is DDG, which is quite rare where I live. The use of

social mone\'s got me in the door. My charm, my whit, my overall wonderful personality and mone\'s got us into

bed together. She ain\'t complaining and neither am I but it never would have happened without the mone\'s. We

haven\'t talked about a future together. I don\'t really see a long term relationship with her but both she and

I have found a good friend in each other and this is a very positive thing. A positive thing that never would have

happened if not for the mone\'s. I have no intention telling her I\'m on the \"juice\"!!!!

Was it

immoral of me to use mone\'s to get her into bed? Now that we are good friends, is it immoral of me not to tell

her about mone\'s?

I\'m an older man and somewhat mellowed by age. I wonder what it would have been like

for me to have used mone\'s when I was younger. Looking back on my life as a younger man I don\'t think it would

have been good for me to use them. It\'s important to note here that I don\'t think mone\'s are in any way

like ruffie\'s. The use of mone\'s DOES NOT cause anybody to do anything against their will but they are very

influential and in some settings they are powerfully influential. This would not have been a good thing for me to

have had when I was younger. Please note in my last sentence the use of \" I \". I am speaking for myself and not

generalizing. I will expand on my reasons for believing this as reply\'s are made to this thread.

franki

11-18-2003, 02:24 AM

I can see

where you are coming from.. You say wouldn\'t been good for your own personal development if you would have used

mones at a younger age, but what does it have to do with morality?

EXIT63

11-18-2003, 04:46 AM

Anyone

know where I can get some roofies?

Slinger

11-18-2003, 09:19 AM

When

discussing the moral issue of pheromone use, one would have to state by what \"morals\" they are judging.

Federal, State, Local Law \"morals\"? Christian morals? Muslim morals? I say as long as they stay within the

law, pheromone users can and should buy and use pheromones at their own discretion, just as with any other everyday

consumer goods. Comparing pheromones to spikes, mickeys, roofies, is bullshit. All those are drugs used to

incapacitate someone against their will and have sex with them in their weakened state. Pheromones just increase

your desireability towards the opposite sex. I guess there should be laws against working out at the gym as well,

because that does damn near the same thing, and with more solid results. Push-ups bras and make-up for women.

Those should be heavily regulated as well I suppose? See what I mean about bullshit?

Slinger

Whitehall

11-18-2003, 09:51 AM

It\'s

phrased differently in different languages in almost all cultures. Philosophers come to the same conclusion as

theologians.

Most of us know it as \"Do unto others as we would have others do unto us.\"

The question

then becomes, we we be happy to find out that our new spouse used pheromones to attract us and get us to

commit?

Personally, I don\'t think I\'d have a problem with that.

Brian

11-18-2003, 11:28 AM

Here\'s

my take on it. If it isn\'t hurting anyone, go for it. Many of these products put people in a good mood. Is there

anything immoral about making someone happier? We all do different things to make ourselves more attractive to the

opposite sex. Phero\'s are no different. They don\'t make a person do something that they wouldn\'t ordinarily

do. This topic is such an individual thing. Everyone has their own opinion and will have to decide for themselves

whether it\'s ethical, or not, to use them. For myself, it\'s no different then putting on a good cologne in

hopes that the scent will attract the opposite sex. The funny thing is, that no one would ever question someone

using a nice cologne to accomplish what we here are trying to accomplish with phero\'s.

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Brian

Elana

11-18-2003, 11:33 AM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
Anyone know where I can get some roofies?

<hr

/></blockquote>

I\'ll hook ya up. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Brian

11-18-2003, 11:36 AM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
Anyone know where I can get some roofies?

<hr /></blockquote>

I\'ll hook ya up. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

<hr

/></blockquote>

That\'s what Elana\'s been using on the forum members all along.

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Elana

11-18-2003, 11:37 AM

Nope.

That\'s kiddie stuff. I use the good stuff on my forum peeps /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Brian

11-18-2003, 11:39 AM

Nice to

know that your not skimping on the crap! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Irish

11-18-2003, 11:58 AM

The one

distinction from other \'attractiveness enhancers\' (like clothes, cologne, makeup, charm, conversation, fit

body, etc.) is that pheros operate on the unconscious. The other things I mentioned are perceived consciously and

the viewer understands consciously about the attractiveness (she sees the clothes or whatever, and decides

consciously what that means to her). Pheros, if they operate like we think, bypass the conscious perception and work

deep in the limbic and/or reptilian brain. They work whether targets consciously perceive an odor or not.

And

that\'s why phero use is exciting. We like to hit our \'victim\' with pheros unawares. Thus the cologne

\'cover\', to secretly influence our target without her conscious knowledge. I don\'t think many of us would

admit to the target that we were using the \'juice\', although I may be wrong about that. I myself certainly

don\'t admit it to anyone.

I don\'t have a problem with the sneaky side of it, because I accept my own

sneakiness and get a little thrill out of being more \'attractive\' than my genetics and obvious traits would

indicate. Others may find covert influence unethical, and I can\'t argue with that - I see the point. But I\'ll

still just go ahead and admit the ethics are dubious at best, and keep trying to score with women I don\'t deserve

(by nature). It\'s my dirty little secret.

Whitehall

11-18-2003, 12:04 PM

Score one for the

competitive advantage of intelligence.

I think a case can be made that women have spread their legs for dumb

jocks far too much for the true advancement of the human species. Intelligence should be rewarded more and I think

the intelligent use of pheromones might just do that.

bigdog

11-18-2003, 12:24 PM

Good point

Whitehall! I\'ve gotta experiment with mones other than at bars. I doubt that they will work as well at the gym

with sweat involved. I\'m definitely looking forward to testing at a popular bech here in Mpls. Unfortunately that

will not be for another 7 months! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif

Irish

11-18-2003, 12:32 PM

I agree - the

beta male (or omega!) that lurks on the fringes while the alphas fight it out, and sneaks over to the female while

the \'real\' males are distracted, passes his genes along as surely as the \'noble\' alphas. There\'s room

for a little sneakiness in the gene pool!

Plus I don\'t want to overstate the possible shady ethics of phero

use. The case mentioned of drug rape is different on many grounds from unconscious attractiveness enhancement from

phero use. The drug rapist obliterates his victim\'s will and ability to resist - then he rapes her. A phero user

makes himself more attractive in an unconscious way, but he doesn\'t nullify the target\'s will. He attempts to

influence her to follow his will, and he does it in a way not obvious, but her will is still intact. No one is

compelled to submit to an attractive seducer, even though we may find it tempting to do so.

Whitehall

11-18-2003, 12:40 PM

Pheromones

are especially effective in libraries....

belgareth

11-18-2003, 01:41 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
Pheromones are especially effective in

libraries....

<hr /></blockquote>

Yes, they are indeed.

xvs

11-19-2003, 06:56 AM

If you do something

that makes someone feel good.

If you do something that makes them have a good time.

If they have a good time

or feel good when they wouldn\'t have if you hadn\'t done the thing.

Are you hurting them?

I don\'t

think so.

If pheros can make someone feel good you are improving their life as well as your own.

Sacogoo

11-19-2003, 09:39 AM

xvs writes:

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
If they have a good time or feel good when they

wouldn\'t have if you hadn\'t done the thing.

Are you hurting them?

<hr /></blockquote>

The potential problems/moral issues with the use of pheromones is several:

1. They are

supposedly working on the subconscious level, where they are purportedly affecting/adjusting individuals perceptions

and reactions covertly. Would the use of synthetic pheromones to alter the perceptions and thoughts (and primarily

sexual feelings) of people through the subconscious via subterfuge be deemed as acceptable or normal by society?
2.

The use of synthetic pheromones has the potential to change the process of natural selection. Where an individual

may not have found a person attractive/appealing/desirable without the use of pheromones, they now find the

pheromone user engaging enough to consider them as qualified to be a sexual mate. (There are reasons why the more

dominant of a species is preferred/chosen for mates. Does the use of synthetic pheromones have the potential to

slowly degrade the overall quality of the human species by allowing a greater percentage of ineffectual/mediocre

individuals to at least have the ability to reproduce? )

Regardless of the possible beneficial outcome to

affected/influenced individuals, or if there is minimal or negligible \"hurting\" on a physical or emotional

level, synthetic pheromones are being employed as a method to change/adjust/affect another persons views/perceptions

on a subconscious level surreptitiously. At least to me, this most certainly brings up questions and concerns on a

moral and ethic level, and I can envision that all it would take is a couple of pissed off people (\"I can\'t

believe that I actually slept with that bag of crap. What\'s this in their nightstand? Pheromones? That SOB

tricked me into sleeping with him/her?! I\'m calling my congressman about this!\" And all of a sudden you have

a senate subcommittee grilling Bruce, JVK, and the phero power players about moral issues, and then the FDA is

really all over it like stink on a monkey - not too mention the outrage and condemnation by the right wing

fundamental moralists.)

Basically, I think that it is a sneaky, underhanded, licentious way to try to help

people who would otherwise sit around with a thumb up their butt as they watch those who actually deserve to get

laid get laid. You are a gutless turd who doesn\'t have the grapes to ask someone out, or you are just one of

those people who will live their life on the fringes of physical and emotional mediocrity, or you are just a walking

pile of wretched malfeasance and sexual deviance. Either way, you are trying to get nook by being a sneak. Is that

just wrong and bad, or are you simply following the path of \"All\'s fair in love and war.\" and using

technology to gain the upper hand?

That being said, I own the following products: The Edge, Primal Instinct, New

Pheromone Additive, Pheromol Factor, Pheromax, Alter-Ego, WAGG-N, Rogue Male, Andro 4.2, Attraction, Scent of Eros,

PPA, and various Super Primal Essential Oils. And previous to discovering pheromones, I have told women that my

name is Lance and that I was one or more of the following: professional baseball player, model, FBI agent, contract

assassin, race car driver, and neuro surgeon. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

CptKipling

11-19-2003, 01:00 PM

Irish

writes:
<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

I don\'t have a problem with the sneaky

side of it, because I accept my own sneakiness and get a little thrill out of being more \'attractive\' than my

genetics and obvious traits would indicate.

<hr /></blockquote>

People do this sort

of thing all the time, and women perhaps more than men. What do you think that seductive eye make-up is for (the

stuff that makes your legs wobble when she bows her head slightly and looks up at you...), or that slinky red dress,

or that intoxicating perfume(!)...

Like Whitehall said, its about time some of \"the right stuff\" got it\'s

fair share of the gene pool.

CK <-----the right stuff /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

franki

11-19-2003, 01:04 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

Like Whitehall said, its about time some of

\"the right stuff\" got it\'s fair share of the gene pool.

<hr /></blockquote>

I hate to piss on the parade and it\'s nothing personal, but this sounds very nerdy.....

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

CptKipling

11-19-2003, 01:09 PM

Irony

my dear franki, irony...

Hey, what you saying about my right stuff!?

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

franki

11-19-2003, 01:11 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
Irony my dear franki, irony...

Hey, what you

saying about my right stuff!? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

<hr /></blockquote>

I just want to

warn you that even though it is meant ironic, it doesn\'t sound good at all.

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Whitehall

11-19-2003, 01:24 PM

No

one begrudges Bill Gates his hot wife. Envy - maybe, but few can say Gates, the quintessential nerd, doesn\'t

deserve her.

Computers are so last millenium - biotech is the 21st Century.

As to craftiness, I wasn\'t

lonely before pheromones but my scoring probablity has improved with them. Plus, I can exert subtle control over

social situations in many positive ways.

Like the arguments about gun control, the morality of the actions depend

not on the technical features so much as on the character of the human using it.

Pheromones offer new powers to

individuals - how you - YOU - use those powers is the moral and ethical issue.

CptKipling

11-19-2003, 01:43 PM

Exactly, the morality of this situation can only be evaluated by looking at the individual.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
I just want to warn you that even though it is meant

ironic, it doesn\'t sound good at all.

<hr /></blockquote>

Oh no, now I\'m

upset! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Sacogoo

11-19-2003, 04:07 PM

Whitehall writes:
<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
Like the arguments about gun

control, the morality of the actions depend not on the technical features so much as on the character of the human

using it.

<hr /></blockquote>

However, unlike the gun, the proverbial trigger has

already been pulled as soon as you put on the pheromones. You\'ve got no control over the subconscious

reactions/feelings of the people being affected by them as you\'re already shooting down everybody that comes

within smelling distance. It ain\'t like you got a choice of which people are going to smell them and those who

don\'t. You\'re just a raging shotgun wielding madman in terms of subconscious perceptions. A freakin\' live

grenade.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
No one begrudges Bill Gates his hot

wife. Envy - maybe, but few can say Gates, the quintessential nerd, doesn\'t deserve her.

<hr

/></blockquote>

Bill Gates is the post Industrial Revolution alpha male. It\'s no

longer just about bigger and stronger equal better. There\'s fiscal considerations that come into play in terms

of the new order of natural selection. Fame, power, money are the bulging biceps and brooding brows of the 21st

century. As I\'ve stated before, one man\'s bottle of Primal Instinct is another man\'s Ferrari. They\'re

both meant to do exactly the same thing.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

Pheromones offer new powers to individuals - how you - YOU - use those powers is the moral and ethical issue.

<hr /></blockquote>

I beg to differ. The individual has no physical control over how

other are going to perceive them in terms of the pheromones having the potential to alter that perception. You

don\'t \"use\" them in a specific manner. You apply them and away you go. Damn the consquences because you

don\'t have any control over how others are going to perceive you after the application.

That\'s the moral

dilema. You are using a synthetic product in order to enhance peoples subconscious perceptions of you. Unless you

inform each and every person you come into contact with that you are wearing synthetic pheromones that may

subconsciously alter their perception of you, then you are knowingly attempting to deceive and dupe people. At

least to me, that isn\'t completely morally correct. May god have mercy on your evil, duplicitous soul you vile

swines! (Maybe phero products should come with warning T-shirts: \"I am wearing pheromones so that others will

perceive me as more attractive, assertive and dominant. Please react accordingly.\")

belgareth

11-19-2003, 06:41 PM

Sacogoo:

What you are talking about is perception. Perception at the subconcous level can be affected by the way

you dress, your demeanor or how you speak amongst many other things. We\'ve all seen how some people abuse their

natural gifts, whether it be looks or the ability to convince others. How an individual uses that perception is the

real issue. If You are using a perception to harm others then you are doing wrong whether you are wearing pheromones

or not. Pheromones are simply another tool used in the age old game. So long as you are not forcing yourself on

somebody or chemically subduing their will, you are not harming them. They still have the free choice in how to

respond to you.

I am curious though. If you feel so strongly that the use of pheromones is evil, what are you

doing here?

Holmes

11-19-2003, 09:24 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
If you feel so strongly that the use of pheromones

is evil, what are you doing here?

<hr /></blockquote>

Hell, it\'s fun to be

evil!

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
Here\'s my take on it. If it isn\'t

hurting anyone, go for it.

<hr /></blockquote>

There it is.

Holmes

Sacogoo

11-19-2003, 10:09 PM

belgareth writes:
<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
Perception at the subconcous

level can be affected by the way you dress, your demeanor or how you speak amongst many other things. We\'ve all

seen how some people abuse their natural gifts, whether it be looks or the ability to convince others.

<hr

/></blockquote>

The problem is, those things (clothes, actions, cologne, mannerisms,

etc.) are not on the subconscious level. These are things that can be identified through sight, sound, smell.

These are things that people can perceive through their senses and can react in a manner to which their particular

tastes and perceptions are attuned towards. However, pheromones are typically being used by those who are knowingly

using deception attempting to influence others on a subconscious level.

Are pheromones any different than, say,

subliminal messages in advertising? Are pheromones the Coca-Cola picture spliced into the movie previews at the

theater?

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
So long as you are not forcing

yourself on somebody or chemically subduing their will, you are not harming them.

<hr /></blockquote>

But to a certain degree you are forcing yourself on them, or at the vary least, making an

attempt to change their views and opinions about you subconsciously. There are numerous testimonials throughout the

forum postings that indicate that \"I would have never gotten a person like this if it weren\'t for the

pheromones.\" Doesn\'t that indicate that the pheromones are actually changing a particular persons

views/perceptions? I\'m pretty certain that most people don\'t let on that they are using pheromones during

their relationships with people, so it seems pretty obvious that at least some individuals are making a conscious

effort to alter a persons views for their own benefit. Is that type of action something that would be considered

morally correct? Perhaps it depends on the individual, but I\'m not certain that society as a whole fully

understands pheromones, and most probably discounts or dismisses their effect on the subconscious due to skepticism

from a lack of understanding, exposure, objective government research (if that\'s even possible), or whatever.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
They still have the free choice in how to respond

to you.

<hr /></blockquote>

Do they? From experience, I don\'t know if they do or

not. This obviously has a multitude of factors to consider, but I do know that by using pheromones I immediately

saw and experienced what I feel were positive reactions that would not have taken place without them on a

subconscious level.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
I am curious though. If

you feel so strongly that the use of pheromones is evil, what are you doing here?

<hr /></blockquote>

Because not only do I play the devil\'s advocate on this board, I am, in real life, the dark

lord of all things evil.

belgareth

11-20-2003, 04:02 AM

Sacogoo:

You dodged the question. If you believe mones are unethical, why are you using them? Your actions and

your statements are contraddictory. Or are your arguments wholly spurious?

Considering mones to be unethical is

akin to considering working out or dressing beyond your means to be unethical. All of them create impressions that

ARE NOT wholly on the concious level. Powerful techniques are taught in psycology to create rapport and lower

another person\'s resistance, are they unethical as well? None of them will force somebody into bed with you.

Using the same logic, a very glib guy talking a not so quick lady into bed would be unethical. Isn\'t it much more

unethical to buy somebody several drinks in an effort to seduce her? You are using drugs to circumvent her free

will. If she has already had several, her judgment is probably impaired to some degree. Just because alcohol is

socially acceptable does not mean that it is right. It certainly reduces the person\'s free choice far more than a

sober person being affected by mones would. Where would you like to draw the line?

EXIT63

11-20-2003, 05:46 AM

This

is all old news and nonsense.

Whitehall

11-20-2003, 08:12 AM

I

have to disagree and defend my original assertion that the ethical issues are with how you respond to other

peoples\' responses.

Wearing pheromones, say \'none, makes you more sexually attractive to some females. If

the woman is an appropriate match, then picking up on and developing her response through your own actions is not

unethical. If the female responding is 14 and developmentally disabled mentally, then banging her is an unethical

use of pheromones. You\'re not that evil, are you?

Perhaps deliberately wearing pheromones during a visit to

nunnery is unethical since the women there deliberately and publicly wish to renounce sexual stimulation - but

you\'re not that evil, are you?

A wearer of pheromones is in a similar situation to a famous, sex male movie

star. He gets more responses than other guys. What he does to those responses from females is the ethical issue.

Sacogoo

11-20-2003, 09:56 AM

belgareth writes:
<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
If you believe mones are

unethical, why are you using them?

<hr /></blockquote>

First off, while I believe

that \'mones could be considered unethical by some people, I\'m not one of them. (Basically, my sense of morals

and ethics when it comes to sex is nearly non-existent. Oh, the stories of debauchery, depravity and carnality that

I could enthrall the board with, but that is an entirely different subject.)

However, even if I did view their

use for attempting to covertly impel people into having sex with the user as immoral or unethical, my purchase and

subsequent use of pheromones did not involve and desire for gaining an advantage in sex via duplicitous subliminal

coercion. I was \"clean\" in terms of pheromones and morality. (At least initially.)

You see, it was another

individuals post from long ago on this very forum that was the initial impetus for my purcahse of pheromones. His

story was not unlike my own - a tale of misery and woe, where marriage was in doubt.

My own union was suffering

from machinations of my own creation, and was teetering on the very precipice of absolution. Desparate was I in my

search for some method of resolution, for I had exhausted all previous methods of apology and reparation and was

still suffering from her extensive wrath. I serendipitously stumbled upon this board and this one individuals post,

who was apparently also entwined in a difficult martial situation, indicated that his purchase and use of pheromones

ultimately proved to be a melange of blithe and bliss. Thus my impetus for my initial purchase of

pheromones.

However, it became apparent that not only were these products capable of affecting moods and emotions

of an individual, they also had the interesting side effect of enhancing the \"animalistic\" nature in people.

(Myself included.) Sex became primal, aggressive. There was a subconscious influence at work that was driving a

deeper desire than simply \"let\'s get a nut.\" There was a need, a want, a have to have that was coming from

within that may have not been fully touched/accessed previously. Maybe we as thinking animals have put that so far

into of subconscious that we are unable to retrieve it without the use of external stimulants. Anyway, I ramble on.

Basically, I can see where some people could/would have questions regarding ethical and moral implications in the

use of pheromones, and I don\'t think that they would necessarily be incorrect in this assumptions. Me? Don\'t

have a problem with \'em.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
Considering mones

to be unethical is akin to considering working out or dressing beyond your means to be unethical. All of them create

impressions that ARE NOT wholly on the concious level.

<hr /></blockquote>

But unlike

pheromones, the others can be perceived through conscious sensory clues. Pheromones are operating in a completely

different domain. Pheromones go beyond perceived social or economic or physical assumptions/perceptions. They are

meant to mitigate or nullify those specific impressions and allow those who would otherwise be at a disadvantage in

those same areas to become as equals. There is a difference.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
Powerful techniques are taught in psycology to create rapport and lower

another person\'s resistance, are they unethical as well?

<hr /></blockquote>

Slimey, yes. Unethical, no. Again, these are things that a person can be aware of through conscious means.

Pheromones are operating in a realm where individuals cannot knowingly ingore or discount them. They are forced to

be affected by them regardless if they want to or not. That is the difference.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
Isn\'t it much more unethical to buy somebody several drinks in an effort

to seduce her?

<hr /></blockquote>

You can always turn down a drink. You can\'t

turn down pheromones, especially if a person is using them clandestinely.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
It certainly reduces the person\'s free choice far more than a sober

person being affected by mones would.

<hr /></blockquote>

At least they have free

choice in accepting or declining other things of influence (drugs, alcohol, clothes, etc.).

Unless you inform

people that you are using pheromones in an attempt to change or alter their perceptions, you are forcing them to be

potentially affected by the pheromones without any chance to make a conscious decision to be or not be under their

potential influence. That\'s the line of morality and ethics that every individual who uses pheromones must

cross.

Sacogoo

11-20-2003, 10:13 AM

Whitehall writes:
<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
If the female responding is 14

and developmentally disabled mentally, then banging her is an unethical use of pheromones. You\'re not that evil,

are you?

<hr /></blockquote>

No, and I hope that no one is.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
Perhaps deliberately wearing pheromones during a

visit to nunnery is unethical since the women there deliberately and publicly wish to renounce sexual stimulation -

but you\'re not that evil, are you?

<hr /></blockquote>

Yes.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
A wearer of pheromones is in a similar situation to

a famous, sex male movie star. He gets more responses than other guys. What he does to those responses from females

is the ethical issue.

<hr /></blockquote>

They are in no way related. Being a movie

star is just another job. Because some segments of society deem this job as being glamorous or sexually stimulating

is their own problem. (In my personal cafe of perception, that and $2.50 will get you a cup of coffee. Right after

you finish standing in line like everybody else.) Being a \"movie star\" and using that to lay wood is not

subconcsiouly affecting people without giving them a choice as to whether they wish to be affected or not.

Mtnjim

11-20-2003, 11:55 AM

\"Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

They still have the

free choice in how to respond to you.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Do they? From

experience, I don\'t know if they do or not.\"

If they didn\'t have a choice, the results would be just like

the fly-by-night phero sites claim! Women would be riping off their clothes and falling on their backs left and

right (I wish /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif )

Sacogoo

11-20-2003, 04:59 PM

Mtnjim writes:
<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
If they didn\'t have a choice,

the results would be just like the fly-by-night phero sites claim! Women would be riping off their clothes and

falling on their backs left and right (I wish )

<hr /></blockquote>

Obviously they

won\'t work like that. (Although I\'d love to bottle whatever that drunk stripper who did that to me a few years

back was on. Man, she just went nuts.) However, they do have an impact on peoples perceptions - whether they want

the impact or not. You gotta know how to use them, see the signs and react to the signs in order for the pheromones

to work the way most people want them to work or think that they should work. But they do work.

Ash

11-21-2003, 02:36 AM

I for

one have gained a lot by reading the replys to this thread. All the thoughts I had on the subject have been

expressed by others far better than I could have expressed them. I\'m amazed by the fine verity of people on this

Forum!

Saco, you\'re getting \"interestinger and interestinger\" all the time!

Slinger

11-21-2003, 10:23 AM

Sacagoo, I like most of what you have said in here, seems to make sense, however...

You say pheromone use

becomes \"unethical\" because it bypasses the CONSCIOUS person, and plays on their subconscious. I don\'t see

that it matters which area of the human mind it plays on.
I have seen the types of guys that the \"hotties\" go

after, and they are almost invariably losers. And I seriously doubt these clowns are using pheromones.

Enter hot girl #1:

She supports her idiot boyfriend by working at her job while he sits on his ass

and plays video games. This guy is obviously not a good mating choice. Yet this girl CONSCIOUSLY picked him as the

most worthy mate for her.

Enter hot girl #2:

She walks into a club one night and a greasy slimeball

whom she would never normally give the time of day, happens to be wearing pheros that fine night. She is hopelessly

attracted to him (exaggerated) one thing leads to another, and soon she has this slime living at her pad, playing

video games while she goes off to work.

Let\'s review. What is difference between the two examples?

Pheromones. What is different in the outcome? Nothing.

Bear in mind I\'m not just coming up with some

bullshit here, I have seen the first situation unfold itself in real life many times over, and often times much

worse. The second situation is highly doubtful, myself having experimented with pheromones enough to realize they

don\'t work THAT good, but just for the benefit of discussion let\'s say it happens just as often as Sit. #1.

So what\'s my conclusion? Women very frequently choose horrible mates. Be it insecurities about themselves,

player skills from the loser at hand, I don\'t know, but the fact remains it is a fact, and pheromones, even at

their PEAK sleaziest usage (outside of underage sex or something similarly sick and twisted) the worst outcome is

that they blend very nicely with the way things already are, the only difference is that certain unsuccessful

greaseballs can attain women they were previously unable to attain, by whatever esoteric means of attraction the

OTHER greaseballs were able. Same players, different hand.

Another strange thing about it is this: people

use contraceptives. Very frequently. In fact, most American females (and males) seem to have a strange desire to

suppress and destroy their genes. Meanwhile, the ghetto-types, low-class, whatever, are breeding all the more.

This is from a purely scientific standpoint, and anyone taking offense, well, that\'s their problem. It is

undeniably true.

Now, seeing as women:

A) Frequently choose unworthy mates

B) Suppress or even

destroy their own genes on a daily basis

...who\'s to say anything is wrong with the butt-ugliest guy

screwing the finest woman in town? No one can, at least from the contraceptive angle the laws of nature have been

smashed to pieces, and whom the \"fittest\" woman chooses to mate with is no longer of any significance.

I

say if you\'re going to go by the laws of nature and selective breeding, with survival of the fittest in mind, you

have to take the whole shebang, the whole spectrum of human furtherance. One cannot consider it acceptable to

suppress one\'s genes, while at the same time condemning someone who skews or toys with the methods of mate

selection.

Slinger

bjf

11-21-2003, 10:28 AM

It is

all fair. It is just another part of evolution. Intelligent people utilizing resources. Look at the users on this

board! Incredibly intelligent people, and that is no accident.

Sacogoo

11-21-2003, 11:12 AM

Slinger writes:
<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
I have seen the types of guys

that the \"hotties\" go after, and they are almost invariably losers.

<hr /></blockquote>

In your opinion or estimation. I sincerely doubt that a significant portion of the males that

date the hot chicks are losers. However, the resentment that you are expressing is pretty typical of the \"other

guy\" syndrome, where the majority of the guys who are not dating the hottie feel that they should be because they,

not the boyfriend/husband of the hottie, could treat the hottie much better than the \"loser\" who is with her

now. This is the basic premise of being male - every guy thinks that they have something to offer that is better

than the other guy, whether they do or not. Natural law, dominance, etc. However, it\'s the actions, not the

thoughts, that get the results.

<<And I seriously doubt these clowns are using pheromones.>>

I

know that when I was actively dating, I never used pheromones, and I did actually have relationships/relations (long

term, short term, one night stands) with a couple of very attractive women. In fact, about half of these were the

result of the woman/female asking me out. If my marriage ends up in the crapper, I\'m actually pretty excited

about seeing what type of havoc I could wreak equipped with pheromones.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
Women very frequently choose horrible mates.

<hr /></blockquote>

So do men.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
You say

pheromone use becomes \"unethical\" because it bypasses the CONSCIOUS person, and plays on their subconscious. I

don\'t see that it matters which area of the human mind it plays on.
I have seen the types of guys that the

\"hotties\" go after, and they are almost invariably losers. And I seriously doubt these clowns are using

pheromones.

<hr /></blockquote>

The thing is, these \"losers\" are not having to be

duplicitous in their methods to attract a (potential) mate by using pheromones secretively.

bjf

11-21-2003, 11:37 AM

Sacagoo. I like what you said about not hating. some of the not-so-good-looking types are with the girl because

they had the confidence to not let it stop them. Better looking guys get jealous because they think, \"hey, I am

better looking, I should have her, not him\" but SOME guys like that don\'t have the confidence, so don\'t hate

others that do.

Slinger

11-21-2003, 12:03 PM

Sacagoo, I hear where you\'re coming from with the \"loser\" thing being a jealousy/whatever issue, in fact

reading my own post I would think much the same thing as an objective observer. But it\'s not that way at all.

I\'m talking about smelly bum-like guys who play vid gamez all day, crippled fat guys in wheelchairs, frail bald

married (cheating)stupid slobs, these are all guys getting pussy from some of the hottest available young females,

and none of that is any exaggeration whatsoever. Envy them I do not, if they can get some out of their league, then

good for them I guess (except the married ones, I have a problem with married guys cheating on their wives). There

are better women available to the left and to the right, I place myself merely as an observer (unless I\'m

interested in the girl, then watch out /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif), and these guys are losers

by pretty much any standard.

Slinger

Holmes

11-21-2003, 12:14 PM

So

someone is deemed a \"loser\" based on the fact that he\'s bald or a \"crippled fat guy\" in a

wheelchair?

Holmes

bjf

11-21-2003, 12:21 PM

Slinger:

But you can go out and get that hot tail, right? So why does any of it matter anyway? We all have the

freedom of choice, live and let live.

The losers also probably have something more than what you are seeing. I

think it is great that women will look past some of the things that men won\'t. Another thing, sometimes they

just fit their type, remind them of their father, or are basically right for them (even if that is a bad thing) even

if they are not right for other women. I could see where it does seem like BS if you are fighting for a woman with

the latter, because in a lot of those cases, it goes completely over the woman\'s head if you are better than the

other guy.

tallmacky

11-21-2003, 12:24 PM

Yes, odd. Bald is genetic and I will feel that brunt soon...shiiiit

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif.

Being in a wheelchair...well I doubt anyone wants to be in

one, or be \"crippled\". I don\'t see how that bad boy can satisfy that girl on two wheels very easily.

I

think I know what you mean, a unattractive guy? Or a lazy guy?:confused.

Still though the guy in a

wheelchair thing makes no sense....You say you are an observer, but is there anything personal undertones in that

speech? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Slinger

11-21-2003, 12:50 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
The losers also probably have something more than

what you are seeing. I think it is great that women will look past some of the things that men won\'t.

<hr

/></blockquote>

Absolutely. My point is not that these guys don\'t deserve these

girls they are with, or that I don\'t want them to have them, rather that from a purely evolutionary standpoint,

these mates are wholly unworthy And that brings us back to my original point, which is that you cannot judge

pheromones as being unethical, as it stands that womens\' choices in mates do not follow the sort of logic or

standard BY WHICH you are saying the pheromones are unethical.

By loser, I usually mean lazy/jobless. I

don\'t factor in looks as a defining factor of a loser, only as an \"additive\" that makes the mix all the more

\"seemingly\" undesireable.

If you\'re reading it that I\'m some sort of elitist or that I have a

problem with cripples, uglies, or stupids, you\'re reading it all wrong. Like bjf says, live and let live. None

of us are perfect.

Slinger

Elana

11-21-2003, 12:55 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
live and let live. None of us are perfect.

<hr /></blockquote>
well...... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

tallmacky

11-21-2003, 01:06 PM

.....Yeah she does have a point. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

bjf

11-21-2003, 01:09 PM

Slinger:

I get what you are saying. Technology moves faster than evolution, so we are still picking mates on

often useless characteristics. That\'s so so true.

If pheromones were anything like ruffies, I\'d call

them unethical, but I don\'t think there influence is quite at the \"control\" level.

belgareth

11-22-2003, 07:34 AM

After re-reading all these posts, some of them very thought provoking, I am begining to think the entire argument

is pointless. Mones are here and in the public\'s hands for good or ill. Whether the use of mones is ethical is

now beside the point. The real issue now is not whether they will be used but how to use them in an ethical manner.

Some arguments seem to support only allowing mone usage by consenting adults in long term relationships. That

isn\'t likely to happen. So, I ask everybody, what conditions should be placed on the use of mones in the real

world?

Whitehall

11-23-2003, 08:56 AM

Any controls necessary are

already well-understood and are those placed on behavior already with only minor elaboration. Here\'s a list off

the top of my head:

1) No sex with underaged or incompetent people (especially females aka \"San Quentin

Quail\").

2) Respect the theoretical dangers that heavy \'mone exposure might present to others such as to

pregnant women. In fact, a warning label on heavy \'none products might be appropriate.

3) Respect the

express rights of others to NOT be sexually stimulated (our nunnery example). \"Lead them not into temptation.\"

4) Don\'t pose as the opposite gender with intent to deceive by using \'mones - I could see a transvestite

using copulins to enhance \"her\" phony image to pick up straight guys - the \"Lo-Lo-Lola\" scenario. An

obvious butch dyke using \'none while cruising for femmes might be OK although distasteful.

That\'s all the

specifics I can think of. Any other ideas?

Holmes

11-23-2003, 04:51 PM

\"I detest violence. I

wouldn\'t smack a crippled sissy.\"

- Redd Fox

Holmes