Advice wanted for a strong, effective product [Archive]

AzMike

11-09-2003, 03:25 PM

After 5 weeks and 22 field tests, I have a total of zero real hits.

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif Have been using small to moderate applications of TE/m, PPA/m,

and/or SOE gel packs during these tests.

I would still like to continue testing for a period of 6 months, and

would like to field test a couple other products. What can people recommend to me as the strongest, most effective

product for 50 dollars or less? Although I\'d like to purchase a couple more things, I\'d like to put a 50

dollar limit on any individual product, since it\'s quite possible the products will do nothing for me, and I will

then feel I\'m flushing the money down the toilet. So, I will not be testing PI, P10, or A1.

I would really,

really like to find a mone that does produce some results; I definitely do not want to come to the conclusion, 5

months from now, that these products are the equivalent of oil from long, legless reptiles. I would much rather be

able to state that some pheromones are effective and very worthwhile, and want to recommend them to everyone. So

please, let me know which under-50-dollar products have been the strongest, and most likely to produce at least some

reactions in people. I would like especially to hear from people who have used TE and/or PPA with little or no

results, but went on to find another product which worked well.

Thanks,
AzMike

Phantom

11-09-2003, 03:40 PM

Maybe you can be more descriptive on the amounts, appiciation points, coverscents and settings you have

been using these products. PPA/m is the only product from love-scent that did\'nt give me any results whatsoever

(i\'ve used every product except Edge Essentials) PPA/w is a different story.... that stuff is worth the

di\'nero...

Even if you can\'t afford a good coverscent, there\'s always \"Old Spice\" bodyspray\'s..

those things are great, i\'ve been getting endless compliments on the \"Pure Sport\" version... more than any

cologne i\'ve ever worn. Also it\'s great for covering TE/m.. 1 spray of TE/m to the chest and a generous amount

of Old Spice bodyspray and your literally a chick magnet. Don\'t Underestimate TE/m, I got laid the first time I

used it and i\'ve been hooked ever since.

Too bad you wont be able to explore the world of PI/m...

Phantom.

DrSmellThis

11-09-2003, 03:56 PM

WAGG.

Phantom

11-09-2003, 03:58 PM

AzMike, what kind of hits are you looking for?

jamesdeanmartin

11-09-2003, 04:08 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
I would really, really like

to find a mone that does produce some results; I definitely do not want to come to the conclusion, 5 months from

now, that these products are the equivalent of oil from long, legless reptiles. I would much rather be able to state

that some pheromones are effective and very worthwhile, and want to recommend them to everyone. So please, let me

know which under-50-dollar products have been the strongest, and most likely to produce at least some reactions in

people. I would like especially to hear from people who have used TE and/or PPA with little or no results, but went

on to find another product which worked well.

<hr /></blockquote>

This is kind of a

goofy argument. I\'m assuming you are frustrated and want to vent, but please understand if you aren\'t

noticing results that really has no impact overall on whether pheromones \"work\" or are snake oil. We all have a

vested interest in them working, so we all will look favorably on any evidence whatsoever that may help the cause.

In my experience, \"hits\" are more a sign of the person \"working\" than the mones working per se. I can

wear all the pheromones in the world and sit at home and I wont\' get any hits. If you aren\'t in situations

where you can succeed, there is little use in them. I don\'t know about your situation, but I often find people

who complain about \"things not working\" haven\'t changed anything else in their lives. Pheromones can be part

of the whole package in creating new strategies for success, but they aren\'t the only thing.

It is very hard

to judge how effective mones can be/are. Part of the problem is that this a niche market. Brad Pitt isn\'t looking

for the perfect pheromone. Guys/girls who are getting play all the time don\'t usually worry about these kinds of

things. So the universe of buyers tends to be people who have \"struck out\" in the past. And speaking as someone

who has struck out in the past, whether or not I had pheromones on would not change the outcome.

Don\'t ask

them to change everything, they can\'t and try and work on other aspects of repetoire to increase the chances for

hits.

AzMike

11-09-2003, 11:12 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
Maybe you can be more descriptive on

the amounts, appiciation points, coverscents and settings you have been using these products. PPA/m is the only

product from love-scent that did\'nt give me any results whatsoever (i\'ve used every product except Edge

Essentials) PPA/w is a different story.... that stuff is worth the di\'nero...

Phantom.

<hr

/></blockquote>
1. Amounts- have varied from 1 or 2 small dabs to 2 big sprays from the

Love-scent-supplied atomizer, where each spray appears to be quite a number of dabs. These are amounts I\'ve used

for PPA/m and TE/m. I would guesstimate this would be the equivalent of slightly less than one drop, up to 4-6

drops. For SOE, used 4 times total, I used between 1/3 and 1/6 of a gel pack each time. I never used SOE alone,

always in combination with TE/m.

2. Application points- almost always put some on side of neck, the so-called

\"pulse points\". Sometimes put some on top of chest, sometimes back of neck, a couple times behind ears.

Several times, before going to swing dance lessons, smeared a small dab between wrists. The wrist is often swung

around the woman\'s head (and nose) in this dancing.

3. Coverscents- with PPA/m, usually none, it has its own

distinct fragrance. With TE/m, supposedly Sandalwood, a few times no cover, several times Dolce & Gabbana,

recently several times Diesel Zero Plus. 4 times I added SOE to TE/m, and 3 of those times didn\'t add additional

cover, once I added D & G. The reason I say \"supposedly Sandalwood\" is, my bottle doesn\'t seem to have

any perfume-type fragrance I can smell at all. It just smells like a hospital. The bottle is labeled \"Fragranced

Pheromone Spray For Men\". But it\'s not a spray bottle, just a bottle with a lid. So if the spray part is

mis-labeled, the \"fragranced\" part might be too.

4. Settings- various. A few times on hikes with outdoor

clubs, a few times in group dinners in restaurants, twice at a singles mixer with a fair amount of alcohol served,

twice in a bar, once at a health club working out, once at a picnic with about 20 people (half women), a few times

on dinner dates with one woman, several times swing dancing. In the last setting, only a small number of people are

in their 20\'s, most are in their 30\'s, 40\'s, and 50\'s. In fact, just did field test #23 at a Sunday

evening dance, since my original post on this. Tonite did 2 small dabs of TE/m, and 2 sprays of DZP cologne. No

hits at all, and in fact, a younger woman there (about 30), who I had seen a half dozen times before, mentioned to

me that she had a boyfriend, for the first time tonite. Also, I had a few trips to the grocery store before or

after the settings listed above, with no reactions from any women in the stores.

AzMike

AzMike

11-09-2003, 11:19 PM

DrSmellThis:<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
WAGG.

<hr /></blockquote>
Although I am looking for some women I know to get more \"chatty\", I am definitely looking

also for sexual hits. Would WAGG (without the -N) provide that?

AzMike

Irish

11-10-2003, 09:28 AM

I was a skeptic going in. But I got enough surprising results early on to investigate in earnest, to

see if there was a scientific basis.

Two things are quite certain in my mind based on respectable scientific

sources that I researched:

* A1 lights up the sexual area in women’s brains when they are exposed, even at

undetected and scent-covered levels.

* Androstenol changes the sex-hormone release rates in women’s brains.

Of

course there’s lots more emerging evidence, but these two recent well-documented facts convinced me it’s not

snakeoil.

The problem is that it’s an emerging field as it relates to human beings. So whatever you are using is

a bit of an experiment – it will be decades I think before the human phero language is well understood

scientifically.

The good part is you get to be an experimental pioneer, if you are so inclined.

I can tell

you that interactions have become much easier since I began to experiment, especially with women approaching me and

initiating conversations. I had expected failure and tried pheros on a whim, but the results really changed my

mind. And there’s enough science to validate my experience, that it’s not ‘all in my head’ or the result of some

changed attitude. But there’s been some rough spots along the road, especially with scent od’s. Such is the price

of exploration.

Anyway, I understand the budget issue. Work with what you already have, try small doses and use

social skills to maneuver close enough for the pheros to work in their soft-spoken way. I’m a huge fan of A1, but

it’s expensive (however it is probably a component of TE & NPA, even though the ingredients are officially

secret). The downside of TE/NPA is the smell, which much be managed closely. Androstenol can get things going with

less bad smell. But you probably already know all that…

I can honestly tell you that I have noticed a huge

increase in responses from women when I am close to them for some time (like sitting next to them or standing

close). They often flirt physically by taking my arm, touching thighs – you name it – and its come from women I

just met as well as ones I’ve known for years. I really must credit the pheros, cause in the previous decade before

pheros this probably happened to me only twice. Now it’s a fairly regular event. The trick for me seems to be a

light dose, and close physical proximity for a while . The longer they are near me and as conversation unfolds the

more overt their reaction becomes.

Anyway, try that. Make pheros a component of your conversation with women,

and see what happens. Try it with enough girls to see if you notice anything, or compare to reactions on days you

don’t use pheros. I’m like you – if I hadn’t noticed anything going on I wouldn’t have stuck with it. But I can

vouch for my own results, and hope you have similar experiences.

bigdog

11-10-2003, 11:17 AM

Great Post Irish. AZMike I suggest Alter Ego with all three mones. It\'s the first product I bought

and probably the most successful stand-alone. I\'ve got more sexual hits with it that way. Since I\'ve tried

mixing AE/NPA I\'ve OD each time. Too much aggression. When I\'ve added SOE or WAGG I get thought of as being

gay. It\'s definitely better to have the SOE/WAGG added though because the AE/NPA can be dangerous for me. One

girl at club claimed that I said that I wanted to f_ck her even though I had not talked or touched her. She went to

a bouncer claiming this and I got bounced. Also I have had women think I had said f_ck to them during conversation

even though I hadn\'t or exclaim \'f_ck\' out of the blue. I think the message they get from AE alone is less

intrusive and more are likely to react favorably. As if it\'s more of a \'I so want to get to know you\'

instead of the more blatantly intrusive \'I wanna f-ck you\' that occurs when near an OD.

I\'m gonna go

by the less is more theory and try AE again alone. Also NPA with cologne. Pheromones can be dangerous if too much is

used IMO. But if you do make sure to have SOE & WAGG.

AzMike

11-10-2003, 11:38 AM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
This is kind of a goofy argument. I\'m assuming

you are frustrated and want to vent, but please understand if you aren\'t noticing results that really has no

impact overall on whether pheromones \"work\" or are snake oil. We all have a vested interest in them working, so

we all will look favorably on any evidence whatsoever that may help the cause.

In my experience, \"hits\" are

more a sign of the person \"working\" than the mones working per se. I can wear all the pheromones in the world

and sit at home and I wont\' get any hits. If you aren\'t in situations where you can succeed, there is little

use in them. I don\'t know about your situation, but I often find people who complain about \"things not

working\" haven\'t changed anything else in their lives. Pheromones can be part of the whole package in creating

new strategies for success, but they aren\'t the only thing.

It is very hard to judge how effective mones can

be/are. Part of the problem is that this a niche market. Brad Pitt isn\'t looking for the perfect pheromone.

Guys/girls who are getting play all the time don\'t usually worry about these kinds of things. So the universe of

buyers tends to be people who have \"struck out\" in the past. And speaking as someone who has struck out in the

past, whether or not I had pheromones on would not change the outcome.

Don\'t ask them to change everything,

they can\'t and try and work on other aspects of repetoire to increase the chances for hits.

<hr

/></blockquote>
Ummm...first, I\'ve never used any pheromones when I planned to sit at

home, something I tend to do a couple nites per week. I have applied the mones prior to going out to situations

where I would be either with a large number of people, including many women, or in a couple cases, where I was on a

date with one woman. I don\'t believe in wasting any sort of product.

I don\'t have illusions about putting

on mones, and expecting them to do all the work. I am not expecting women to come up to me and start ripping my

clothes and her clothes off. However, I AM looking for subtle signs that would be out of the ordinary. One of

these would be increased eye contact. During the 23 times I\'ve used mones so far, I have noticed no women who

had a big increase in eye contact with me. No stares or anything. I have noticed one or two times what may have

been a rather slight increase, but these were women I was unfamiliar with.

In many settings, I have purposely,

but briefly, walked past a woman, so I would be within a foot or so of her for a second or 2. This was with a

moderate dose of PPA/m or TE/m on. This didn\'t turn any heads. In a dance situation, the woman is automatically

within range of you. In some other social settings, I might be standing 2-3 feet from a woman when conversing, but

might walk closer to her for a few seconds, so she might get a whiff.

I have struck out many times in the past

myself, but have had a number of home runs, certainly not as often as I\'d like, but these home runs were all

before I started using mones about 5 weeks ago. Speaking of strange arguments, I don\'t know why you\'d state

that pheromones would have no effect on the outcome. Doesn\'t exactly sound like a promotion of them. If they

would have NO EFFECT on the outcome, why would anybody buy them?

I don\'t expect to dab mones on, go to a

social function, sit on my butt, do nothing, and expect women to flock to me. But I would hope they would help

increase the chances of women acting favorably when I approach them. At the very least, I would hope to see

increased eye contact from SOME women.

AzMike

AzMike

11-10-2003, 11:57 AM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
Too bad you wont be able to explore the

world of PI/m...

Phantom.

<hr /></blockquote>
I do have the potential to become a

hard-core experimenter and tester, buying PI/m, A1, P10, even the chem sets. I just need to see some evidence that

the not-so-expensive mones work first. If I find a product or dosage that produces a fair number of hits for me, I

will be hooked. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
AzMike, what kind of hits are you looking for?

Phantom.

<hr

/></blockquote>
I am looking for almost anything out of the ordinary. Increased eye

contact, flirty/touchy behavior, increased chattiness, etc. Like most of us, I am mainly looking for a product that

will produce sexual hits, rather than friendship hits. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif But I am

keeping my eyes open for any behavior that seems outside the normal range of what I\'ve seen in the

past.

AzMike

Irish

11-10-2003, 01:18 PM

Since you mention a desire to get more eye contact, I’ll throw this out there for what it’s worth.

Irish’s Scheme for Pursuit Encounters:

I basically operate on the anthropological courtship scheme…courtship

operates through several stages before progressing to intercourse, and the order of the stages is important. The

first stage is the sending of presence and gender cues – all non-verbal. Eye contact is perhaps the most important,

although there are many gestures that are subconsciously processed. Next comes return signals of recognition and

permission to approach. Everything so far is non-verbal, and includes the eye contact you are looking for.

Next

the big hurdle: approach and speech, followed later by touching during the conversation. The moment builds rapidly

from here, with the couple seeking solitude for more intimate touch, kissing, and sex. Of course there’s little

advances and retreats throughout the process, and depending on how it goes the whole cycle can happen in one

encounter, or be spread out over many encounters. This is pretty basic stuff, but the idea of courtship occurring in

stages is what I’m getting at.

At what stage do pheros fit in? Well, at natural concentration levels on the human

skin, I think it would be when we were pretty close to the woman. Several years ago E. Miller made the point that

pheros are for close-in effect, not long distance signaling, and I tend to agree. Miller thinks the visual is for

long distance signals (eye contact, gestures, gender cues). If the theory of courtship stages is correct then the

visual would therefore be the primary sense in the early (longer-distance) stage of courtship. Only when the couple

had drawn closer together would the pheros begin to have significant impact (at distance smells are dispersed by the

wind, confused with other people’s and the environment, etc.) Visual cues are individual-specific at any distance;

smell cues are only individual-specific at close range in the ‘normal’ course of things.

Said all that to say

this: Signals like eye contact may be more significant in the early courtship encounter, when there is some physical

distance, and not designed to be facilitated by pheros. You don’t need pheros to catch a girl’s eye across the room:

people are quite sensitive to eye contact anyway. But in the later stages of an encounter, when you have drawn

physically close, then the pheros are exerting their influence. It makes sense to me, since only after you are close

would you be within ‘smelling range’ of an individual.

Loading up on commercial pheros to catch attention may be

counterproductive. The heavy dose could be repellent when you do eventually move in closer, and you may be getting

the courtship sequence out of order anyway by trying to increase eye contact with smell cues. Go ahead and catch her

eye contact up front, then move in for the phero effects as you begin to converse at close range.

In my

experience this holds. For me phero use tends to increase the sexiness of the conversation, the openness to touch

(giving and receiving)...the things associated with later courtship phases. I’ve had girls hanging on me and asking

why I smell good, what cologne I’m wearing, etc. That’s why I’m so big on not od-ing to the point where they will

be offended when they do get close. I use pheros to facilitate my conversation and touching moves, not really so

much to draw initial longer-distance attention. I can use my eyes for that anyway without smell cues.

Bernard

11-10-2003, 07:03 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
Said all that to say this: Signals

like eye contact may be more significant in the early courtship encounter, when there is some physical distance, and

not designed to be facilitated by pheros. You don’t need pheros to catch a girl’s eye across the room: people are

quite sensitive to eye contact anyway. But in the later stages of an encounter, when you have drawn physically

close, then the pheros are exerting their influence. It makes sense to me, since only after you are close would you

be within ‘smelling range’ of an individual.

Loading up on commercial pheros to catch attention may be

counterproductive. The heavy dose could be repellent when you do eventually move in closer, and you may be getting

the courtship sequence out of order anyway by trying to increase eye contact with smell cues. Go ahead and catch her

eye contact up front, then move in for the phero effects as you begin to converse at c

<hr /></blockquote>

i just wonder if u are ugly , how would women make a eye contact with u. even u try to make

eye contact with her, if u dont have some x factor in ur physical part to catch her eyes, i dont think she would be

attracted / going to bother about u , isnt it? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

bjf

11-10-2003, 07:30 PM

bernard:

That is why I got pheromones. I am butt ugly and it looks like someone smashed a bag

of marbles into my face, on a good day. In a perfect world, I would be able to get the visual attention and

invitation from women. However, since that is not something that happens, pheromones provide me and many others of

this forum with that edge to get your foot in the door.

Bernard

11-10-2003, 08:40 PM

then wha do u think between good looking feature that would mesmerize all the woment and more

naturalpheromone, which one is better? if only given 1 choice , which 1 do u want to have? personally i still feel

having better charming look would be more advantage than having natural more pheromone. i just do not know why i had

this thought!/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

Slinger

11-10-2003, 09:51 PM

Bernard, looks don\'t mean quite as much to women as one might think. But thinking you\'re ugly on

the starting line is a formula for FAILURE! We all have to play the hand we\'re dealt, but you owe it to

yourself, if to no one else, to make the best of your life and the body you\'re given and to change the things you

can. Work out, eat healthy, take pride in your body, be friendly, and you\'ll become someone people WANT to hang

out with, add the proper pheros to the mix, and you may never melt the ice queens, but you\'ll find girls taking

interest in you that you might have thought were out of your league not too long ago, and now they wanna play in

YOUR league /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif Trust me that is the way it works, and you truly have

to love yourself before anyone else will. Working out is a GOOD solid start and (as long as you\'re careful

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif) can ONLY be a step in the right direction. You CANNOT lose

ANYTHING by working out. It makes your BODY look good, it makes you FEEL good, and people around you WILL notice

the multi-level changes in you.

Slinger

AzMike

11-11-2003, 01:04 AM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
I was a skeptic going in. But I got

enough surprising results early on to investigate in earnest, to see if there was a scientific basis.

I can tell

you that interactions have become much easier since I began to experiment, especially with women approaching me and

initiating conversations. I had expected failure and tried pheros on a whim, but the results really changed my

mind. And there’s enough science to validate my experience, that it’s not ‘all in my head’ or the result of some

changed attitude. But there’s been some rough spots along the road, especially with scent od’s. Such is the price

of exploration.

I can honestly tell you that I have noticed a huge increase in responses from women when I am

close to them for some time (like sitting next to them or standing close). They often flirt physically by taking my

arm, touching thighs – you name it – and its come from women I just met as well as ones I’ve known for years. I

really must credit the pheros, cause in the previous decade before pheros this probably happened to me only twice.

Now it’s a fairly regular event. The trick for me seems to be a light dose, and close physical proximity for a while

. The longer they are near me and as conversation unfolds the more overt their reaction becomes.

Anyway, try

that. Make pheros a component of your conversation with women, and see what happens. Try it with enough girls to

see if you notice anything, or compare to reactions on days you don’t use pheros. I’m like you – if I hadn’t noticed

anything going on I wouldn’t have stuck with it. But I can vouch for my own results, and hope you have similar

experiences.

<hr /></blockquote>
Thanks for your informative, encouraging, and

thoughtful post, Irish. I\'ve had very little in the way of women approaching me and initiating conversations

with me since I started using pheros around Oct 1, once in a great while they do, which is just about the same as

before Oct 1. And I\'ve noticed no increase in women flirting physically by taking my arm, touching thighs,

etc.

I didn\'t expect to do any field tests at all Monday. But on a whim, decided to hit the health club after

work today. I get the impression from some posters here that I should try light doses more, so I intend to do that

more when I go somewhere where there\'s many people I know. BUT, I know very few people at the health club, so I

decided to do the opposite. I gave myself 4 sprays of TE/m, and 3 sprays of DZP cologne, to see if a big dose would

make a difference. I did feel that some women may have looked at me more than normal, but not a big increase. No

women seemed repelled by me, and I didn\'t notice any glares from any males in the club. One unusual thing was I

was on a calf-exercising machine, and a male next to me started up a conversation about how he was hoping to buy a

machine like the one he was working on, but it was 500 dollars, way too expensive.

It is unusual for any stranger

in this health club to start a conversation with me, and this seemed especially strange since I was using a -none

only product, with no -nol or -rone. If this had been a woman, I would have considered it to be a bonafide hit, but

not a male. ANY woman who acts unusually toward me, will be a hit, regardless of whether she\'s a beauty queen,

or looks like Frankenstein. But not guys.

On leaving the club, I walked by a woman who was on a hike I was on in

mid-October, and we stopped and chatted for a few minutes. I didn\'t expect to see someone I knew like that, but

this happens once in a while. She didn\'t seem more friendly or flirty than normal, but also didn\'t seem less

friendly, or repelled by me, in spite of my big TE application. She was standing 18-24 inches away, for about 3

minutes.

AzMike

AzMike

11-11-2003, 01:16 AM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
Great Post Irish. AZMike I suggest

Alter Ego with all three mones. It\'s the first product I bought and probably the most successful stand-alone.

I\'ve got more sexual hits with it that way. Since I\'ve tried mixing AE/NPA I\'ve OD each time. Too much

aggression. When I\'ve added SOE or WAGG I get thought of as being gay. It\'s definitely better to have the

SOE/WAGG added though because the AE/NPA can be dangerous for me. One girl at club claimed that I said that I wanted

to f_ck her even though I had not talked or touched her. She went to a bouncer claiming this and I got bounced. Also

I have had women think I had said f_ck to them during conversation even though I hadn\'t or exclaim \'f_ck\'

out of the blue. I think the message they get from AE alone is less intrusive and more are likely to react

favorably. As if it\'s more of a \'I so want to get to know you\' instead of the more blatantly intrusive

\'I wanna f-ck you\' that occurs when near an OD.

I\'m gonna go by the less is more theory and try AE again

alone. Also NPA with cologne. Pheromones can be dangerous if too much is used IMO. But if you do make sure to have

SOE & WAGG.

<hr /></blockquote>
Thanks bigdog. I actually considered Alter Ego as

my initial purchase, and its a good candidate for my next one. I haven\'t gotten any negative reactions from

anybody yet, while using mones. I don\'t want to get bounced from a club, but no one- female or male- has acted

in a negatively-aggressive manner toward me yet, even with 2, 3, or even 4 sprays of TE/m.

I wonder if your body

type will affect if you get these negative reactions. I am in great cardiovascular shape, I hike up big mountains

every few weeks. But I am thin and not really muscular. I work out at the gym, and actually have decent upper-body

strength, but don\'t seem to have the genetic makeup to get much in the way of visible muscles. I wonder if some

guys who get these bad reactions /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif with mone ODing, have more of a

\"big bear\" body type. A \"mesomorph\" if you will.

AzMike

bjf

11-11-2003, 06:21 AM

Supposedly we use visual cues to figure out someones pheromoens signature.

I think with the big

guys, they are interpreted as having a lot of none, and when they use sytnhetic pheromones that are largely none,

targets get both the implied visual reaction and the reaction from there actual pheromone signature, and it has

threat written all over it. It (the visual aspect) either legitimizes the feelings that the none gives the targets,

or could be more like having a double-dose of none.

Yes they definitely are more likely to have those bad

experiences ODing, even if their natural none + synthetic none equals the exact same total as mine.

Kari

11-11-2003, 06:42 AM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
Bernard, looks don\'t mean quite as

much to women as one might think. But thinking you\'re ugly on the starting line is a formula for FAILURE! We

all have to play the hand we\'re dealt, but you owe it to yourself, if to no one else, to make the best of your

life and the body you\'re given and to change the things you can. Work out, eat healthy, take pride in your body,

be friendly, and you\'ll become someone people WANT to hang out with, add the proper pheros to the mix, and you

may never melt the ice queens, but you\'ll find girls taking interest in you that you might have thought were out

of your league not too long ago, and now they wanna play in YOUR league

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif Trust me that is the way it works, and you truly have to love

yourself before anyone else will. Working out is a GOOD solid start and (as long as you\'re careful

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif) can ONLY be a step in the right direction. You CANNOT lose

ANYTHING by working out. It makes your BODY look good, it makes you FEEL good, and people around you WILL notice

the multi-level changes in you.

Slinger

<hr /></blockquote>

Also, there\'s

such a thing as ugly-sexy. Bogart, Tommy Lee Jones, Tom Berenger. Then there are guys like Tom Sellick and Brad Pitt

who are classically attractive, but don\'t have much sex appeal. In guys, looks don\'t often have a lot to do

with sex appeal. It\'s presence that matters.

bigdog

11-11-2003, 07:57 AM

AZMike-I am fairly stocky and muscular. That could contribute to the bouncer issues for I\'ve heard

they tend to go after guys that are perceived similar to themselves. I do believe OD contributed and alcohol can

somewhat too. I don\'t think I\'ve been too aggressive but yet I have seemed to be more confident & perhaps

cocky since using pheros. As Irish mentioned it is wise to watch carefully for cues. I\'ve learned to better watch

for that now. A girl that works at the club I was bounced from also figured out I wear pheros as she keeps telling

me she knows I buy off the internet. That doesn\'t help for she surely told others. The manager welcomes me back

for I have friends that frequent there. Yet I think it\'s right for me to avoid the place for now.

I

mentioned before that too much none kind of gives out the \'I wanna F_ck you\' vibe. While I think AE gives out

the more \'I\'m really digging you and wanna get to know you\' vibe. I first bought AE and used alone and the

best results with it alone. Combos have not worked well for me so far. Lately I have been overutilizing nol which

has given me alot fo social hits. Yet I have been perceived strangely enough by some as gay. I\'m not gonna use

SOE or WAGG with AE that much for that reason. I\'m just gonna stick to AE alone or NPA/cologne for now. AE has

enough nol & rone IMO.

JohnnyM

11-11-2003, 10:56 AM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
Next the big hurdle: approach and

speech, followed later by touching during the conversation. The moment builds rapidly from here, with the couple

seeking solitude for more intimate touch, kissing, and sex. Of course there’s little advances and retreats

throughout the process, and depending on how it goes the whole cycle can happen in one encounter, or be spread out

over many encounters. This is pretty basic stuff, but the idea of courtship occurring in stages is what I’m getting

at.

<hr /></blockquote>
Not to get away from the topic of this thread, but I really

liked Irish\'s post. This is one area that I\'d like to learn more about, the \"approach and speech\".

I tend to agree that in order for the \'mones to work you must be in close proximity to the other person.

Having had two long-term relationships in a row I have not been on the dating scene for over 12 years and I\'m now

back on the prowl if you will. But I\'d like to get some advice on how to go from a smile from across the room to

approaching the person and striking up a conversation. Am I worrying too much about it? Should I just walk up and

say, “Hi!\"? Hehe... What gives you the clue that a woman is attracted, if even only slightly, to you from across

the room?

-- Johnny

Kari

11-11-2003, 11:13 AM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
Next the big hurdle: approach and speech, followed later by touching during

the conversation. The moment builds rapidly from here, with the couple seeking solitude for more intimate touch,

kissing, and sex. Of course there’s little advances and retreats throughout the process, and depending on how it

goes the whole cycle can happen in one encounter, or be spread out over many encounters. This is pretty basic stuff,

but the idea of courtship occurring in stages is what I’m getting at.

<hr /></blockquote>
Not to get away from the topic of this thread, but I really liked Irish\'s post. This is one

area that I\'d like to learn more about, the \"approach and speech\".

I tend to agree that in order for the

\'mones to work you must be in close proximity to the other person. Having had two long-term relationships in a

row I have not been on the dating scene for over 12 years and I\'m now back on the prowl if you will. But I\'d

like to get some advice on how to go from a smile from across the room to approaching the person and striking up a

conversation. Am I worrying too much about it? Should I just walk up and say, “Hi!\"? Hehe... What gives you the

clue that a woman is attracted, if even only slightly, to you from across the room?

-- Johnny

<hr

/></blockquote>

Eye contact is a biggy. Does she subtly \"check you out,\" then look

away quickly, if you notice? Does she meet your eyes for one or two seconds, and then look someplace else?

franki

11-11-2003, 11:16 AM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
Does she subtly \"check you out,\"

then look away quickly, if you notice? Does she meet your eyes for one or two seconds, and then look someplace else?

<hr /></blockquote>

I have this all the time. I heard it makes a difference when

she looks away to the ground after it or looks at something else. What is better?

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif

Sexyredhead

11-11-2003, 11:18 AM

It\'s not so much that she looks at you and looks away, but if she looks at you, then

looks down and away. That\'s a sign of interest.

bjf

11-11-2003, 11:19 AM

i didn\'t know looks at something else was bad. Looking at the ground is submitting I thnk. Is

looking to the side not also a sign of a good thing? And what happens if they look at you for about 15 seconds like

they want to kill you? That happened to me the other night.

Sexyredhead

11-11-2003, 11:26 AM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
i didn\'t know looks at something

else was bad. Looking at the ground is submitting I thnk. Is looking to the side not also a sign of a good thing?

And what happens if they look at you for about 15 seconds like they want to kill you? That happened to me the other

night.

<hr /></blockquote>

Generally if they look at you, then look off to the side

before dropping their gaze, the woman isn\'t interested in you. She may be wondering where you got that hat.

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif Guys, on the other hand, don\'t generally look down, but away,

then come back. But watch--is she looking away AND down? That\'s still down.

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

If she looks at you for 15 seconds like she wants to kill you,

maybe she\'s had a few too many and you look like her ex-bf, the lousy cheating bastard! Anyway, I\'d probably

stay away from anybody giving me hostile glares from across the room.

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

cuddlebear

11-11-2003, 11:55 AM

So down and away simultaneously is the key? Worth a try ... I will watch for that in the future.

I\'m so glad we have females here /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

bjf

11-11-2003, 11:59 AM

i think she meant down and then away OR down and away.

to the sde, you should be fine to, they may

notice you but haven\'t made the judgement to submit, which is what looking down signals. But it is hard to go

and break up a conversation either way, if she is with her friends, if she doesn\'t hold eye contact long enough

for you to smile.

I have found some pheromone doses they can always smile back, while others they are too

paralyzed to return the gesture or even look away.

JohnnyM

11-11-2003, 12:02 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
If she looks at you for 15 seconds like

she wants to kill you, maybe she\'s had a few too many and you look like her ex-bf, the lousy cheating

bastard!

<hr /></blockquote>
Hahaha! Okay, this is all fascinating to me. Is this a

proven behavior? Eye contact (maybe a smile) and then looking down and away? So rolling of the eyes and mouthing

\"bug off!\" is a definite not a good sign? ROFL - Just kidding. I mean, some things are clear as day, but for me

the BIGGEST hurdle is just getting past the eye contact to actually approaching the woman. I guess I\'m just sort

of shy about walking up to a woman I\'ve never met and striking up the conversation. That is where I need to work

on things. I just want a definite sign before I take that chance I guess. Sort of embarrassing for a 35 year old man

to be shy about approaching women, eh?

Kari

11-11-2003, 12:10 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
If she looks at you for 15 seconds like she wants to kill you, maybe she\'s

had a few too many and you look like her ex-bf, the lousy cheating bastard!

<hr /></blockquote>
Hahaha! Okay, this is all fascinating to me. Is this a proven behavior? Eye contact (maybe a

smile) and then looking down and away? So rolling of the eyes and mouthing \"bug off!\" is a definite not a good

sign? ROFL - Just kidding. I mean, some things are clear as day, but for me the BIGGEST hurdle is just getting past

the eye contact to actually approaching the woman. I guess I\'m just sort of shy about walking up to a woman

I\'ve never met and striking up the conversation. That is where I need to work on things. I just want a definite

sign before I take that chance I guess. Sort of embarrassing for a 35 year old man to be shy about approaching

women, eh?

<hr /></blockquote>

NOT embarassing to be shy. Men are more vulnerable to

rejection, than women. All women have to do is... expect approaches, then accept or reject.

Kari

11-11-2003, 12:12 PM

.. and, if she looks, then looks away.. then looks BACK when she thinks you won\'t notice... you have

her attention.

Or, you may have spinach on your teeth. <G>

Pancho1188

11-11-2003, 12:18 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

All women have to do is... expect

approaches, then accept or reject.

<hr /></blockquote>

And for this, women should

never whine about anything ever again... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif J/K.

bjf

11-11-2003, 12:27 PM

Kari --

Question. I\'ve always thought women were far more vunerable.... which is why I

thought they have trouble making the first move, among other reasons.

I.E. If a single man rejects a woman,

it is more often than not because he isn\'t physically turned on by her. We are a lot less choosy about who and

how many sexual partners to pursue, making a gizzilion sperm a minute as we do.

Women on the other hand, can

be rejecting because of looks, personality (which a man doesn\'t have to take personally when the woman doesn\'t

know him well) or she\'s just not in the right state of mind at the time, etc. Seems to me we have very little at

stake, considering it could be a anyone of a number of personal or inpersonal reasons for the rejection, and we

will never know which one it is.

Women on the other hand can usually figure it out (looks), and I would think

it is difficult to make the first move when you are always knowing what personal thing you are being judged

on.

See what I am saying? Why do you think that men are more vulnerable?

cuddlebear

11-11-2003, 12:50 PM

Men are more likely to take rejection personally, the male ego thing ...

Women know if one guy

doesn\'t dig on them, that there are a thousand other horny fish in the sea ...

Never thought that was very

fair myself ...

Kari

11-11-2003, 01:07 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
Kari --

Question. I\'ve always

thought women were far more vunerable.... which is why I thought they have trouble making the first move, among

other reasons.

I.E. If a single man rejects a woman, it is more often than not because he isn\'t physically

turned on by her. We are a lot less choosy about who and how many sexual partners to pursue, making a gizzilion

sperm a minute as we do.

Women on the other hand, can be rejecting because of looks, personality (which a man

doesn\'t have to take personally when the woman doesn\'t know him well) or she\'s just not in the right state

of mind at the time, etc. Seems to me we have very little at stake, considering it could be a anyone of a number

of personal or inpersonal reasons for the rejection, and we will never know which one it is.

Women on the other

hand can usually figure it out (looks), and I would think it is difficult to make the first move when you are always

knowing what personal thing you are being judged on.

See what I am saying? Why do you think that men are more

vulnerable?

<hr /></blockquote>

I\'m not sure that women have difficulty

making the first DIRECT move, as much as many of us prefer to be approached, so that we can appear to do the

selecting. I say \"appear,\" because we have often managed to make the first indirect move-- subtly indicating

interest through looks, banter, innuendo, or body language. If the man doesn\'t pick up on the signals, we assume

he isn\'t interested. Because the move was indirect, the lady hasn\'t risked her ego.

Most women can quickly

assess which men are likely to be receptive (it\'s in the eyes), and can limit their \"signals\" to those.

Also, because men are less choosy, thanks to testosterone, women get approached a lot. So, it\'s easy to sit

back and choose. The lady doesn\'t have to make the first direct move, unless she chooses to be the aggressor

(which can also be fun). <g>

I think some men are more sensitive than they appear to be, and can be

momentarily a little bruised by a rejection-- or a few rejections-- even if there is no emotional involvement. I

think some men may not consider all the factors involved in eliciting a womans interest (as you have), and may think

that her rejection reflects solely on his lack of attractiveness. In short-- I think that some men expect women to

think like they do.

A woman gets valdiation of her attractiveness just from the approaches, even if the man

doesn\'t interest her.

There are, of course, guys like the late TV actor, Hugh O\'Brian. He used to walk up

to women and say, \"I\'m Hugh O\'Brian, wanna f**K?\" He might get rejected 50 time, he used to say, But,

he\'d ask 51 times. So, he always got laid. <g>

I hope I\'ve explained myself clearly. If I haven\'t

please let me know-- it\'s been a rough day.

Thanks! K.

bjf

11-11-2003, 01:26 PM

I am sorry if it a rough day.

I think I understand what you are saying. I thought you meant men

are more vunerable making the first move than women. From what I read, you seem to be saying men are more vunerable

in the scene because they have to do the soliciting, women do the choosing (which is a position of power as opposed

to vunerability).

You are definitely right, some men have there egos bruised because they don\'t realize how

the process is different for women than men.

And I love the indirect signals. Send me a sign! Too bad so many

women tend to be shy and don\'t use them! Plus maybe they don\'t want to send signinals to guys who miht turn

out to be pigs. Maybe the pigs ruin it for us all.

Kari

11-11-2003, 01:47 PM

I am sorry if it a rough day.

-- Thanks! The gym, after work, will smooth it out.

I think I

understand what you are saying. I thought you meant men are more vunerable making the first move than women. From

what I read, you seem to be saying men are more vunerable in the scene because they have to do the soliciting, women

do the choosing (which is a position of power as opposed to vunerability).

-- Exactly! Men have to put their egos

on the line. Women just have to signal, then wait and see whether he bites.

You are definitely right, some men

have there egos bruised because they don\'t realize how the process is different for women than men.

-- You

have a rare understanding of the process. I hate to see a guy get a little bruised, because he doesn\'t understand

that womens\' criteria are more complicated-- or at least, different.

And I love the indirect signals. Send

me a sign! Too bad so many women tend to be shy and don\'t use them! Plus maybe they don\'t want to send

signinals to guys who miht turn out to be pigs. Maybe the pigs ruin it for us all.

-- I think you\'re right.

Many ladies find it scary. Though, it needn\'t be. If he turns out to be a pig, she can beat a retreat.

-- Re:

signals: there was a TV movie called \"Sex and Mrs. X\" starring Jackie Bissett. In one scene, she demonstrated

casting a subtle, but alluring look over the rim of her wine glass.

Kari

11-11-2003, 01:50 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
Men are more likely to take rejection

personally, the male ego thing ...

Women know if one guy doesn\'t dig on them, that there are a thousand other

horny fish in the sea ...

Never thought that was very fair myself ...

<hr /></blockquote>

If you read all of the holy books, of all of the religions, you will never find the word

\"fair\" in any of them. <g>

Irish

11-11-2003, 01:58 PM

In mammals including primates (which we are), and in numerous direct studies of human courtship, the

basic pattern is the same. There are exchanged signals of gender and recognition. Next the female sends an overt

signal of some kind (‘proceptive behavior’), which incites the male to ‘approach’. Then the female exhibits

‘receptive behavior’ to his advance. The next generation is ensured…

Aside from the scientific lingo, it’s

all pretty simple when it plays out. We are basically unaware of all this signaling at the time (unless we’ve

studied it and concentrate), and the signals are processed unconsciously. The biggest detriment to a smooth

courtship is neurotic focus on ourselves and our own fragile egos – our big forebrain gets in the way and we stumble

over it on the way to our dreamgirl. The remedy is to put on your best ‘gameface’ in advance (grooming, clothes,

pheros, etc.) and then forget about that and yourself. Focus on the girl, instead of how you are coming across –

she’ll sense and appreciate that attention.

I like to keep things simple. Catch a girl’s glance a few times,

smile a little, see how she responds. If it is at all positive just walk up introduce yourself and start a casual

conversation. Any topic is fine - especially commenting on what\'s going on around you. The idea is that now you

are talking - not that you are a brilliant conversationalist. If it doesn’t click after a few minutes or she seems

annoyed just smile and beg off with a “Nice talking to ya!”, and move on. Anyone can engage in a simple casual

conversation with no danger to their ego. If the conversation starts to develop into something more - great! If not,

no harm done.

Hell sometimes we act like we’re trying to communicate with an alien species…they’re just women

after all. They’re programmed to respond to men just like men are programmed to chase them. Just follow the basic

pattern and try not to overthink the proceedings. Focus outwardly instead of inwardly.

Being able to

recognize positive encouraging signals will help you avoid rejection when you approach - you\'ll have an idea if

she wants you to approach , and you can pass her by if she\'s signaling dislike. But even if you get it wrong

you\'re not going to die, and most of the time you can exit gracefully from a rejection if you have decent

manners.

Kari

11-11-2003, 02:35 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
In mammals including primates (which we

are), and in numerous direct studies of human courtship, the basic pattern is the same. There are exchanged signals

of gender and recognition. Next the female sends an overt signal of some kind (‘proceptive behavior’), which incites

the male to ‘approach’. Then the female exhibits ‘receptive behavior’ to his advance. The next generation is

ensured…

Aside from the scientific lingo, it’s all pretty simple when it plays out. We are basically unaware of

all this signaling at the time (unless we’ve studied it and concentrate), and the signals are processed

unconsciously. The biggest detriment to a smooth courtship is neurotic focus on ourselves and our own fragile egos –

our big forebrain gets in the way and we stumble over it on the way to our dreamgirl. The remedy is to put on your

best ‘gameface’ in advance (grooming, clothes, pheros, etc.) and then forget about that and yourself. Focus on the

girl, instead of how you are coming across – she’ll sense and appreciate that attention.

I like to keep things

simple. Catch a girl’s glance a few times, smile a little, see how she responds. If it is at all positive just walk

up introduce yourself and start a casual conversation. Any topic is fine - especially commenting on what\'s going

on around you. The idea is that now you are talking - not that you are a brilliant conversationalist. If it doesn’t

click after a few minutes or she seems annoyed just smile and beg off with a “Nice talking to ya!”, and move on.

Anyone can engage in a simple casual conversation with no danger to their ego. If the conversation starts to develop

into something more - great! If not, no harm done.

Hell sometimes we act like we’re trying to communicate with an

alien species…they’re just women after all. They’re programmed to respond to men just like men are programmed to

chase them. Just follow the basic pattern and try not to overthink the proceedings. Focus outwardly instead of

inwardly.

Being able to recognize positive encouraging signals will help you avoid rejection when you approach -

you\'ll have an idea if she wants you to approach , and you can pass her by if she\'s signaling dislike. But

even if you get it wrong you\'re not going to die, and most of the time you can exit gracefully from a rejection

if you have decent manners.

<hr /></blockquote>

The first paragraph shows that we

really haven\'t been out of the tress, all that long. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

bigdog

11-11-2003, 02:36 PM

Very insightful posts Kari & Irish. Most men do not look for or pick up on the right cues. Even if

they do many will fail to act on them anyway. The lines also fail once a followup is initiated. Especially in a bar

scenario where people tend to not act as themselves and are out to deviously impress.

Kari

11-11-2003, 02:46 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
Very insightful posts Kari & Irish.

Most men do not look for or pick up on the right cues. Even if they do many will fail to act on them anyway. The

lines also fail once a followup is initiated. Especially in a bar scenario where people tend to not act as

themselves and are out to deviously impress.

<hr /></blockquote>

But.. a man who

DOES pick up on the cues... especially the less obvious ones.... can get VERY lucky!

bigdog

11-11-2003, 02:57 PM

Kari-Have you ever been affected by another\'s mones and in waht way did you react?

Kari

11-11-2003, 03:10 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
Kari-Have you ever been affected by

another\'s mones and in waht way did you react?

<hr /></blockquote>

I think so. I

have a friend who doesn\'t wear mones. But, he REALLY puts out the sexual vibes. It\'s almost palpable. I think

he generates a lot of natural mones. He isn\'t that good looking. He also isn\'t my type. We have nothing in

common. But, I often want to nibble his neck, and I hug him a lot. He\'s involved, so I can\'t flirt \"with

intent.\" But, I notice that women turn to look at him, on the street.

He only affects me, if I am in fairly

close proximity.

Sacogoo

11-11-2003, 03:59 PM

Johnny writes:
<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
But I\'d like to

get some advice on how to go from a smile from across the room to approaching the person and striking up a

conversation. Am I worrying too much about it? Should I just walk up and say, &#8220;Hi!\"? Hehe... What gives

you the clue that a woman is attracted, if even only slightly, to you from across the room?

<hr

/></blockquote>

An initial very short eye contact, followed by repeated short eye contact.

Find an excuse to walk by \"target\" and eye contact with a small but sincere smile. Followed up with a very

short, but meaningful positive comment (\"those are the sexiest boots I\'ve ever seen\"), which will let you

know if you can go on from there.

Crap, who knows what really works. I had a girl start making out with me and

go down the front of my pants because I grabbed her and took her along when I was making a surge to the front row of

the stage at a Poison/Ratt concert. (BTW - we were making out in the front row during the concert.) (And no,

I\'m not going to explain what I was doing at a Poison/Ratt concert in the first place. Screw you - they were

cool in the late eighties.)

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
Sort of

embarrassing for a 35 year old man to be shy about approaching women, eh?

<hr /></blockquote>

Not really. You\'re still the same person you were 15 years ago, and you were probably shy

then. I\'m shy. Seriously. If it wasn\'t for girls asking me out from 14 to 24, I probably wouldn\'t have

gone out at all. However, I\'ve found out that just opening up and initiating the contact and conversation, you

can get a lot more accomplished than hoping and waiting for somebody else to do it instead. Life is short, and

being reserved and hoping that somebody else makes the first move makes it all that much shorter.

Besides -

what\'s the worst that could happen? She says no? Well then, you are still at the same place that you were if

you did nothing at all. And, perhaps, just maybe, if you actually initiate the contact/conversation, etc., you

might actually find that things work out for the best.

You\'ll never know unless you try.

Sacogoo

11-11-2003, 04:18 PM

Kari writes:
<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
If the man doesn\'t

pick up on the signals, we assume he isn\'t interested.

<hr /></blockquote>

Wrong!

Assume the man is drunk or stupid or oblivious, but don\'t assume that he isn\'t interested. Every guy (at

least every guy I know, including myself) likes to be hit on by women, and subtle doesn\'t usually get it with us.

Most of us require the frying pan to the head to get that information in. (Don\'t think that \"Can I buy you a

drink?\" is a strong approach - most guys will just think \"Sweet! A free drink! I wonder why she bought me a

drink. I only wish that I had the balls to talk to her.\")

All guys are interested, especially if the woman is

even remotely attractive. Married guys. Single guys. Partially dead guys. We\'re just stupid, and don\'t

want to offend you, or are scared of rejection or whatever. We\'re still interested. Hell, every time I walk out

the door I\'m saddened that I don\'t get hit on, and then wonder why every woman is so unaccessible. Frigid

bunch of uptight bitches! Why can\'t I get laid? C\'MON! And then we just can\'t believe that the girl we

had our eyes on all night ends up going home with some heavy browed neanderthal. I can\'t believe that she went

home with that ape when I could have loved her forever with all my heart. (Sure, we were too chicken to even go up

to her or look at her all night, but goddamn if we weren\'t interested. Not interested?! I\'d have given my

left nut to have been with her tonight!)

That\'s most guys in a nutshell. With the exception of the dopey

meatheads who are either too stupid to ponder and deal with the possible subconcious complications subsequent to the

rejection, or have nothing to lose as they have already figured out from numerous rejections that life goes on, so

they might as well take a shot at the hot chick.

However, once a normal guy does initiate conversation with the

\"hot chick\", watch how many of the chicken sh_t mediocrity then go diving in in an attempt at contact. (It\'s

like baseball. A pitcher is just throwing bb\'s and nobody can touch him, then your 8th position guy rocks a

double and then everybody thinks that they can hit the guy. Girls and like a curveball. Nobody thinks that they

can hit it, but as soon as somebody does, everybody wants to, and thinks that they can, hit that stuff.)

cuddlebear

11-11-2003, 04:36 PM

I second this post. An uninterested male? Not likely ...

Icarus

11-11-2003, 04:55 PM

goood post!

Sexyredhead

11-11-2003, 04:57 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
An uninterested male? Not likely ...

<hr /></blockquote>

I don\'t mean to offend any of the guys posting, but...you

know, I see you guys saying all this, and then I think back to all the posts where I see guys complain about fat or

ugly women hitting on them, and wanting to know how they can get them to stop.

Just an observation.

Pancho1188

11-11-2003, 05:14 PM

Yeah, and women complain about ugly, uninteresting guys or jerks hitting on them all of the time when

all they really want is a \'nice guy\'... Go figure.

I still say we need a definite system to get the

go-ahead to flirt with someone. Something like the \'hotornot\' system where you both click \'yes\' if

you\'re interested and then attempt conversation. If I were a TV network, I\'d start a show where they made

definite verbal signals on whether a guy/girl was interested. For instance, if you were interested, you\'d say

\"Hi,\" but if you weren\'t you\'d say, \"Hey, there.\" That way you could let someone know where you stand

without saying anything out of the ordinary. This, of course, would never work, but it\'s nice to dream. This

goes along the lines of my \'ring\' idea where if you\'re married you have the ring on the left ring finger,

if you have a bf or are interested in someone you put a ring on your right ring finger, and if you want some action

you have no rings. That way no one looking for action will bother flirting with you if you have the ring. Great

system, absolutely no relation to what\'s really possible and no capability of instituting it globally.

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif A man can dream, dammit!!!

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Icarus

11-11-2003, 05:15 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
I don\'t mean to offend any of

the guys posting, but...you know, I see you guys saying all this, and then I think back to all the posts where I see

guys complain about fat or ugly women hitting on them, and wanting to know how they can get them to stop.

<hr /></blockquote>

A very good point.

This fence is rather uncomfortable.

DrSmellThis

11-11-2003, 06:11 PM

I think those kinds of posts stick out like a sore thumb, but usually us guys have our thumbs, and

heads, stuck safely up our asses. You have to know how to give a clear signal. This is a fundamental skill of

womanhood, in my O. On the other hand, our job is to learn to recognize clear signals. This is where evolution comes

in.

EXIT63

11-11-2003, 06:12 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
So down and away simultaneously is

the key? Worth a try ... I will watch for that in the future. I\'m so glad we have females here

<hr

/></blockquote>

Also works when urinating.

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

DrSmellThis

11-11-2003, 06:33 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
There are, of course, guys like the

late TV actor, Hugh O\'Brian. He used to walk up to women and say, \"I\'m Hugh O\'Brian, wanna f**K?\" He

might get rejected 50 time, he used to say, But, he\'d ask 51 times. So, he always got laid. <g>

<hr

/></blockquote>
I used to do that, but it never worked. Eventually they all found out my

name isn\'t Hugh O\'Brian.

Sacogoo

11-11-2003, 08:03 PM

Sexy writes:
<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
I don\'t mean to

offend any of the guys posting, but...you know, I see you guys saying all this, and then I think back to all the

posts where I see guys complain about fat or ugly women hitting on them, and wanting to know how they can get them

to stop.

<hr /></blockquote>

Not this guy. Crap, I\'ll take any attention that I

can get. Yeah, I might be a borderline egomaniac (and as I get older I know that compliments are going to be harder

to find regardless if they come from hotties or fatties), but letting fat ugly chicks hit on me once got me a good

friend that resulted in a couple years in a luxury box at the KC Chiefs games and horse riding whenever I wanted to

saddle up.

(By the way, fat and ugly is all in the eyes of the beholder. I mean, Kari said Brad Pitt wasn\'t

sexy. I mean, really. Brad Pitt not sexy? Have you seen that guys bod? That\'s a 40 year old bod BTW. Sexy as

hell. I\'d consider having sex with him he\'s so sexy (although I\'d have the ground rule that I would not be

the recipient, if you know what I mean. A hot chick with a strap on is one thing, a guy is completely different.

(Speaking from a hetero point of view.) Some people might prefer plump to a rock hard sexy, supple, volumptuous,

passionate, exotic, flexible body.)

Bernard

11-12-2003, 12:12 AM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
Also, there\'s such a thing as

ugly-sexy. Bogart, Tommy Lee Jones, Tom Berenger. Then there are guys like Tom Sellick and Brad Pitt who are

classically attractive, but don\'t have much sex appeal. In guys, looks don\'t often have a lot to do with sex

appeal. It\'s presence that matters.

--------------------
\"Sex appeal is 50% what you have and 50% what

people think you have.\"-- Sophia Loren

Post Extras:

<hr /></blockquote>

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
and, if she looks, then looks away.. then looks

BACK when she thinks you won\'t notice... you have her attention.

<hr /></blockquote>

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
the way, fat and ugly is all in the eyes of

the beholder. I mean, Kari said Brad Pitt wasn\'t sexy. I mean, really. Brad Pitt not sexy? Have you seen that

guys bod? That\'s a 40 year old bod BTW. Sexy as hell. I\'d consider having sex with him he\'s so sexy

(although I\'d have the ground rule that I would not be the recipient, if you know what I mean. A hot chick with a

strap on is one thing, a guy is completely different. (Speaking from a hetero point of view.) Some people might

prefer plump to a rock hard sexy, supple, volumptuous, passionate, exotic, flexible body.)

<hr

/></blockquote>

that\'s why i say thta u must at least have that x factor because u

can catch someone eye. if u are not attractive in away or another physically, u would unlikely hold her eye

contact! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

Kari

11-12-2003, 06:37 AM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
Yeah, and women complain about ugly,

uninteresting guys or jerks hitting on them all of the time when all they really want is a \'nice guy\'... Go

figure.

I still say we need a definite system to get the go-ahead to flirt with someone. Something like the

\'hotornot\' system where you both click \'yes\' if you\'re interested and then attempt conversation. If

I were a TV network, I\'d start a show where they made definite verbal signals on whether a guy/girl was

interested. For instance, if you were interested, you\'d say \"Hi,\" but if you weren\'t you\'d say,

\"Hey, there.\" That way you could let someone know where you stand without saying anything out of the ordinary.

This, of course, would never work, but it\'s nice to dream. This goes along the lines of my \'ring\' idea

where if you\'re married you have the ring on the left ring finger, if you have a bf or are interested in someone

you put a ring on your right ring finger, and if you want some action you have no rings. That way no one looking

for action will bother flirting with you if you have the ring. Great system, absolutely no relation to what\'s

really possible and no capability of instituting it globally. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif A

man can dream, dammit!!! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

<hr /></blockquote>

Speaking of

signals... there\'s a course for women called the \"Art of Exotic Dancing\"-- taught by an ex-stripper. One of

the primary lessons is how to enter a room, and use eye contact to create a presence. The class is on vid, and also

tours the country. Being an ex-dancer, I fond it to be of value.

AzMike

11-12-2003, 11:45 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
Sexy writes:
<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
I don\'t mean to offend any of the guys posting, but...you know, I see you

guys saying all this, and then I think back to all the posts where I see guys complain about fat or ugly women

hitting on them, and wanting to know how they can get them to stop.

<hr /></blockquote>

Not this guy. Crap, I\'ll take any attention that I can get. Yeah, I might be a borderline egomaniac (and as

I get older I know that compliments are going to be harder to find regardless if they come from hotties or fatties),

but letting fat ugly chicks hit on me once got me a good friend that resulted in a couple years in a luxury box at

the KC Chiefs games and horse riding whenever I wanted to saddle up.

<hr /></blockquote>
I agree with Sacogoo\'s attitude. I haven\'t had a fat or ugly woman hitting on me with

mones on yet. I see the potential for this to be a problem; but, you can always control how far an interaction goes

with anybody. You could end up with unexpected perks (like a luxury box). If someone hits on you that you don\'t

find attractive at all, you can be polite, but don\'t have to go home with them, or even spend much time with

them. If it were me, I would just record it as a hit, and move on to another person.

Now listening to: \"Kid

Charlemaign\" by Steely Dan. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

AzMike

AzMike

11-12-2003, 11:58 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
All guys are interested, especially if

the woman is even remotely attractive. Married guys. Single guys. Partially dead guys. We\'re just stupid, and

don\'t want to offend you, or are scared of rejection or whatever. We\'re still interested. Hell, every time I

walk out the door I\'m saddened that I don\'t get hit on, and then wonder why every woman is so unaccessible.

Frigid bunch of uptight bitches! Why can\'t I get laid? C\'MON! And then we just can\'t believe that the

girl we had our eyes on all night ends up going home with some heavy browed neanderthal. I can\'t believe that

she went home with that ape when I could have loved her forever with all my heart. (Sure, we were too chicken to

even go up to her or look at her all night, but goddamn if we weren\'t interested. Not interested?! I\'d have

given my left nut to have been with her tonight!)

<hr /></blockquote>
The majority of

women prefer a heavy browed neanderthal to an intelligent guy. Brawn usually wins out over brains, when women judge

guys. If you are built like a big ape, you will be quite popular with women, pheromones or no pheromones.

Now

listening to: \"Eagles Fly\" by Sammy Hagar.

AzMike

Icarus

11-13-2003, 01:45 AM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
If you are built like a big ape

<hr /></blockquote>

Do you mean in good shape, or just big?

On my years upon this

planet, I have witnessed those who looked most simian in nature be confident yet ultimatly thwarted in the dating

arena. Perhaps they don\'t look evolved enough.

It\'s the perma-banana hanging out the mouth that does it.

Watcher

11-13-2003, 01:52 AM

Pheromones are usefull but by working out you need a broadbased look ie legs, arms, cardio, areboic,

strength training. Remember some women prefer the skinny but fit look, others like fat guys, others like the upper

body worked look, others prefer a flat stomach but the rest of the body can be flabby. One look wont attract all

women but being fit is usefull but so is being smart, being funny and having $$$$$.

Younger women go for the

sweet talker or mature well built look but as they go past 25 they look for providers and stable types. (good

looking ones anyway as they start nesting if they havent got kids already)

Kari

11-13-2003, 07:06 AM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
Pheromones are usefull but by working

out you need a broadbased look ie legs, arms, cardio, areboic, strength training. Remember some women prefer the

skinny but fit look, others like fat guys, others like the upper body worked look, others prefer a flat stomach but

the rest of the body can be flabby. One look wont attract all women but being fit is usefull but so is being smart,

being funny and having $$$$$.

Younger women go for the sweet talker or mature well built look but as they go past

25 they look for providers and stable types. (good looking ones anyway as they start nesting if they havent got kids

already)

<hr /></blockquote>

I dunno. I like fit guys, visually (not necessarily

\"big\"). But, I end up WANTING sensitive, intelligent types. I think it\'s dangerous to generalize, because

people have such varied tastes.

BTW-- One of the most successful men I know, with women, is 6\'2\" and 300

pounds. He\'s VERY suave, intelligent, glib, and sensitive. A MAJOR charmer, but not a superficial one. Women

FLOCK to him. They like to be around him because he\'s such a great companion. He inspires warm feelings of

confidence, which then becomes sexual interest.

I will LOOK at a guy with a gorgeous bod, with superficial

interest. But, if he turns out to be a dork, when he opens his mouth, it really kills the good visual impression. He

may be eye candy, but I won\'t take him home.

AzMike

11-14-2003, 10:52 AM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
If you are built like a big ape

<hr /></blockquote>

Do you mean in good shape, or just big?

On my years upon this planet, I have witnessed

those who looked most simian in nature be confident yet ultimatly thwarted in the dating arena. Perhaps they

don\'t look evolved enough.

It\'s the perma-banana hanging out the mouth that does it.

<hr

/></blockquote>
I think women most prefer a guy who is big and muscular. However, I think a

fair number like guys who are just plain big, regardless of whether that\'s fat or muscle. There\'s exceptions

to every rule, but I think the majority of ladies prefer a \"big\" guy (big overall).

Judging by the abundance

of emails I get for VPRX pills, there\'s quite a perception that women like big guys (big in a particular area).

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Yes, there are 300 pound guys who are quite popular with women,

but hardly any 150 pound guys. I\'d like to see Kari or somebody else talk about such a guy. Some thin guys are

moderately successful with women, but its very rare that they are regarded as real \"hotties\". To have women

really flock to you, you have to be at least 175 pounds.

I do believe personality and charm has a lot to do with

it, and you can do well with women if you put enough effort into that. However, the bigger guys do have an edge

over thin guys, particularly in initial encounters. In particular, I think the big guys have a lot more women

taking the initiative with them, approaching them and striking up a conversation, offering phone numbers without

even being asked, etc. For us thin guys, this is very rare. We can sometimes have pretty good results with women,

but WE have to take the initiative almost 100 percent of the time.

AzMike

Holmes

11-14-2003, 11:10 AM

Good post, Mike.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
BTW-- One of the most

successful men I know, with women, is 6\'2\" and 300 pounds. He\'s VERY suave, intelligent, glib, and

sensitive. A MAJOR charmer, but not a superficial one. Women FLOCK to him. They like to be around him because

he\'s such a great companion. He inspires warm feelings of confidence...

<hr /></blockquote>

...because they know he could pummel the sh!t out of anyone for them at a moment\'s notice.

Holmes

Sacogoo

11-14-2003, 11:30 AM

Holmes writes:
<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
...because they know

he could pummel the sh!t out of anyone for them at a moment\'s notice.

<hr /></blockquote>

I\'d kick his ass.

bjf

11-14-2003, 11:38 AM

Preference is jsut that, preference. Most men prfer certain physical charteristics, but find others hot. I mean,

I get turned on by flat chest boobs. I don\'t mind a thicker boy type. Sure I have a preference, but it is not a

rule of thumb.

Lok at all the rock stars. Do women think twice about mick jagger beiing thin? No.

And even

if you have to take the initiative, that is part of the joy of being a man. the perogative to have a little fun

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Holmes

11-14-2003, 12:13 PM

bjf,

I agree. However,

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
Lok at all the rock

stars. Do women think twice about mick jagger beiing thin? No.

<hr /></blockquote>

That\'s because he\'s a rock star.

Which is to say that what you\'re involved in

doing with your life (and therefore how much power, charisma, and influence you have) can be as important a

determining factor as your physical stature. i.e., who would really find Woody Allen to be as \"sexy\" on his own?

In the case of old Mick, though...something tells me that he was born believing that he was The Man and that it

wouldn\'t have taken fronting the biggest rock \'n\' roll band on Earth to convince him. (Which, of course,

resurrects issues related to another proven attractant: confidence...)

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Holmes

bjf

11-14-2003, 12:23 PM

Yep. I agree. He\'s a rock star. I didn\'t want to get into, well he\'s got that fame thing and wild rock

star, etc, but women will look at some guys who look like aliens (not all of course) as sexy. Why do you think so

many women describe sexy is \"an attitude, a state of mind\"

I never used to understand that at all.

I

am not saying there aren\'t disadvantages to being skinny, etc, but the bottom line is the world is your oyster.

I am skinny. The only times where I was and wasn\'t taking seriously was how I approached.

It is extremely

obvious whether a man is in woman\'s league based on all of this. They can just read how comfortable and

confident he is, and if that is there, they will assume this guy is on my level, and therefore take you seriously.

Holmes

11-14-2003, 12:49 PM

True enough.

And with regard to \"rock stars,\" remember that many had that \"aura\" around them long

before anyone gave a crap who they were. (Which supports your point.) I\'m reminded of that Madonna story

someone related wherein they saw her on the street in an ordinary white T-shirt and jeans way before anyone knew of

her, but there was just something about her (that aura of confidence?) that would make anyone want to wear a white

T-Shirt and jeans just to be like her...

Anyway...good thoughts bjf--and encouraging for those of us who

aren\'t Suge Knight-ian in stature and proportions.

Holmes

bjf

11-14-2003, 01:14 PM

holmes....great minds think a like!! I was going to point out in my previous thread, do you think it is any

coincidience that mick jagger became a rock star? Same with bill clinton as president, and madonna, and so on.

They have it inside of them. We all don\'t have those personas, but I figure us men have it pretty good

considering we are far more likely to be judged for what we have on the inside than women are. They can get a

pretty raw deal sometimes.

AzMike

11-16-2003, 04:06 PM

Returning this thread to the original reason for my post, I am trying to determine one or two additional products

to buy in the future. Some have posted that NPA has worked well; BUT I see that it is also made by LaCroy Chemical.

So, do people here think that it has the same secret ingredients as TE? Is it basically a more concentrated

version of TE, that definitely needs cologne as a cover?

I still have considerable testing to do, and my bottle

of TE will last until probably next spring. I can\'t make any real firm conclusions on it yet. But, tentatively,

after about 15 tests, it has been essentially snake oil for those 15 tests, at light to moderate doses. It

hasn\'t generated any real hits yet, no significant reactions from any women. So, if NPA has a very similar

formulation as TE, I would probably want to avoid buying NPA.

In recent days, I have been careful to shower and

scrub the neck, chest, and wrists thoroughly, prior to re-application of TE, to try to prevent \"buildup\". I

will continue in this mode during the next week or two, and report any hits this may cause.

AzMike

Sacogoo

11-16-2003, 09:22 PM

AzMike,

What \'mones are you currently using? From my own personal experience, Alter-Ego has yet

to produce anything when I use it, but I\'ve had major reactions to other pheromone products. Maybe The Edge just

isn\'t copacetic with your body chemistry. There is a 30 day guarantee on the product. Perhaps you should think

about exchanging it for another pheromone product.

AzMike

11-17-2003, 11:45 AM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
Returning this thread to the original reason for my

post, I am trying to determine one or two additional products to buy in the future. Some have posted that NPA has

worked well; BUT I see that it is also made by LaCroy Chemical. So, do people here think that it has the same

secret ingredients as TE? Is it basically a more concentrated version of TE, that definitely needs cologne as a

cover?

<hr /></blockquote>
Well, I was looking at Who\'s Online, and just by chance,

someone else was looking at a thread called TE vs NPA,

at:
http://www.ser

ver2.love-scent.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Board=UBB5&Number=99758 (\"http://www.server2.love-scent.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Board=UBB5&Number=99758\")
which pretty much answers my question

above. Newbies should look at this thread.

AzMike

AzMike

11-17-2003, 11:53 AM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
AzMike,

What \'mones are you currently using?

From my own personal experience, Alter-Ego has yet to produce anything when I use it, but I\'ve had major

reactions to other pheromone products. Maybe The Edge just isn\'t copacetic with your body chemistry. There is a

30 day guarantee on the product. Perhaps you should think about exchanging it for another pheromone product.

<hr /></blockquote>
I have mostly used just TE during the past 2 weeks, with CK Truth,

DZP, or Dolce Gabbana as a cover. I did use some SOE back at the begining of November, about 1/4 gel pack each

time, and that didn\'t change anything. I\'ve also used PPA/m about 10 times back in October.

AzMike