detailed newbie question

[skeptic]

Okay, here\'s the deal. I realize this is Yet Another Newbie Question, so I\'ll try to pack in as much information as possible to make it easy on the experts.

I\'m a 24 year old male and just started attending a major university. I was out of school for a while working in the private sector, but decided to go back when the economy got bad. I\'m about 5\'8”, so not tall by any means, but not really short either. I\'m slender, not musclar, not cut or toned either since I haven\'t been exercising, but I\'m not super-skinny any more, having gained weight over the past year (a good portion of it making a little tummy, to my dismayed amusement, heh). Lookswise, I\'d say I\'m about average, though I\'ve been told I have captivating eyes. Some women are attracted to me, so I don\'t believe I\'m ugly or anything like that. I\'m suspicious that my testosterone might be on the low end of normal since I\'m not very hairy, not aggressive, don\'t have a pronounced jaw, seem to have a lower sex drive than a number of my male friends (sorry, no self-gratification six times a day..).

Behaviorally, I\'m not in the slightest bit alpha, I\'m conflict-avoidant, don\'t like competition, and most alphas really annoy me, though there is a small subset which I can bond with - two of my best friends are definite alphas. In general, I don\'t like men and prefer the company of women, part of this is probably because I\'m straight and they interest me more, part of it is because I find that how most men are socialized in American society is distasteful. I have anxiety and mood stability issues which are currently fair to well controlled with medication. Some of my anxiety centers around women; basically, for me, it\'s getting over the initial hump that\'s the hardest. Try as I might, I\'m not really a risk taker, and although I\'ve gotten much better at it, I still see putting myself on the line to be a risk, mainly because I\'m not good with rejection or blowing off when I make an ass of myself as everyone does now and then. Once I achieve a comfort level around them, I\'m fine, unless I really really really like them in which case I get the common “IQ points bleeding out ears” thing going on.

I also am not big on approach behavior in general, but I\'ve been practicing starting conversations, talking to random people, and trying things out socially with women that I\'m not terribly interested in since they\'re “safe” to make mistakes with. That may sound bad, but hey, you gotta start somewhere. Also, I come up with alternate ways to break the ice, by creating online communities for my classes and so on. Various personality tests put me close to the middle in terms of introversion vs. extroversion. I have distinct characteristics of both, but have moved a bit towards the introverted side since my teens, which is fine with me.. I\'m not looking to become an extrovert.

I haven\'t had too much experience with women, mainly due to fear of rejection, getting into the “friend zone”, failing to initiate, failing to portray myself as a sexual being (I\'ve been described in the past as “androgynous” .. um, no), and so forth. I feel that it\'s a combination of bad luck, poor socialization, and being somewhat subpar physically - average to decent looks but slim build, something not that many women appreciate - that\'s caused me problems. The luck and the looks to some extent I must accept. The socialization I\'ve been working on, feeling like I\'m getting better and better in a number of ways, and now I\'ve gone from small town living and not leaving the beaten path between home and work to being in the midst of a student body of around 25,000. So, it feels like with the right chain of events, I could be on the edge of a vast improvement in my social and intimate lives.

My goals are to meet lots of people and make friends and acquaintances, building a solid social network that I can rely on. Due to my personality type, I\'ll only ever have a few very close friends at a time, and that\'s fine with me, but I need to establish a network here. My other major goal is to find a woman. Surprised? Anyway, while I wouldn\'t turn up my nose at one night stands, I found out in a recent relationship that having sex with people I don\'t know all that well sometimes doesn\'t work too well for me. Besides, like I said if I got a “hit” I\'d most likely pursue it even if it was clear from the start it wasn\'t serious, but what I\'m really looking for is a committed relationship with somebody who likes me for who I am, who\'s attractive and reasonably compatible in terms of intelligence, personality, and sexuality. So, friends first (hopefully with some sexual tension! heh), then lovers, etc.

My “target” population is educated, intelligent women from around 20-28. Again, I\'d get involved with an 18 year old if she were great, but historically they\'ve tended to be trouble. :-P

So, leaving my skepticism aside for a moment (I\'ll get to it later), basically what I\'m looking for is something that can nudge interactions towards openness, warmth, friendliness, comfort, for those I\'m interacting with and also maybe me, though I have meds for that. :-P Also, a subtle push towards attraction would be great, to a point, but I couldn\'t live up to alpha male expectations nor would I want to - yes, I realize that\'s not exactly how pheromones are supposed to work, e.g. even if I soak myself in -none I\'m probably not going to be seen as an alpha, but you get the idea. So I\'d like a nudge towards easily breaking the ice, and for everyone (including me) to feel relaxed, and a significant but not overbearing nudge towards potential attraction in women. I like to talk and listen, so things that promote conversation would work nicely for me (and increase the possible influence of pheromones since I tend to get into long conversations). Clubs and bars generally aren\'t my scene, and I\'m usually my best when interacting in small groups or one on one.

I am quite skeptical about pheromones, just like any other similar thing you see sold on the net and in the back of magazines, and I think there\'s a lot of irresponsible marketing and snake oil sales going on. There\'s also a lack of research, unless there\'s a lot that I\'m somehow missing. The Cutler studies* are certainly interesting, but they haven\'t been repeated and the sample size is uncomfortably small. The subjective nature of “results”, the lack of rigorous testing, the difficulty of verifying whether the product one is getting is real, the “too good to be true” claims, the obviously bogus testimonial from non-existant people on some sites which sell the same products I hear mentioned here, and the - for lack of a better word - semi-religious tone I see in posts and the tendency to ascribe all maner of abilities to microgram quantities of odorless inhaled substances - this is the same kind of dedication I see in people who are All About Herbs or Totally Into Homeopathic Medicine or Really Believe In Astrology, and makes me highly suspicious.

On the other hand, just because there\'s currently a lack of strong evidence to support claims made about pheromones doesn\'t mean that all of the claims are false. While the amount of research which needs to be done is vast, there are small, tantalizing bits which show promise. There are anecdotes, which shouldn\'t be given much weight, but I\'ve read about the guy with the wacky hormone levels that had pigs following him around.

Pheromones have been proven to exist in the mammal kingdom and in humans, and exert some subtle influences. From the standpoint of evolutionary psychology, pheromones also make sense, though just because something makes sense doesn\'t mean it will evolve. But, for example if we go with the overly simplistic model of healthy, succesful male = more testosterone = more secreted steroids vs. stressed or unhealthy male = lower testosterone, more cortisol = less or different secreted steroids, and the female being able to detect this, that would be advantageous for the female\'s genes.

Do I believe all the hype? No, certainly not. Do I think it at least plausible that certain airbone chemicals secreted by humans can subtly affect the mood of other humans? Yes. Do I consider it likely? Possibly. Proven? Not to my satisfaction.

However, if you recall the “nudges” I was talking about before, well, not being a particularly outstanding guy, I sort of view social success as a series of nudges. Small things add up. Too many nudges in the wrong direction, and things don\'t work. A few nudges in the right direction can vastly increase success. When you\'re not outstanding, it\'s the small things that count.

My opinion after digging around on the net is that IF these products do anything at all, it\'s probably in the form of nudges, not ridiculous “chick magnet” type crap. Despite my skepticism and natural inclination towards disbelief, I figure I might give them a try, given the available evidence. This is sort of a weird position to be in for somebody who prides themself on keeping a critical mind, and not buying into marketing hype, but I guess my reasoning is that at this point in my life, if the pheromones DO work, the payoff could be immense. If not, I\'ve lost a few bucks and get to feel like a dumbass for a while, which is a minor loss compared to the potential gain.

Anyway, I\'m extremely busy and without further evidence, I\'m not interested in spending a ton of money buying 10 different products, nor am I interested in creating a pheromone chemistry set and spending a lot of time creating various potions, despite the fact that I derived a sick pleasure from organic chemistry in high school. Given the large amount of information I\'ve provided, I\'d greatly appreciate it if you, the experts, could recommend what will work best for me, preferably no more than two products (ideally one) which won\'t break the bank. If I notice tangible results, I\'ll be far more interested in continuing my experimentation.

I don\'t wear cologne often, so a product I could apply without it would also be great. When I do wear it, it\'s Tuscany.

The last thing I should mention is that one of the women I\'m currently most interested in is somebody I see first thing in the morning on the days that I see her, usually about an hour after getting out of the shower.. I\'ve seen some threads on here about lead time and whatnot, so that\'s also a factor.

From my basic research I was looking at AE. That\'s about it.

I\'ll make a little addition that I would be interested in something to subtly kick up sexual attraction or tension a notch in situations where it already exists. If this product is the same as the primary one I\'m looking for (the ideal product that I just gave you all the data to recommend to me), so much the better.

Thanks in advance for reading my mini-novel and any advice you may have.

* re: Cutler and the Athena Institute: I\'d be interested in hearing opinions on the Athena products. When I e-mailed some questions, they were quite helpful right up until the point where I asked about patents, at which point the reply got downright prickly and I was referred to their lawyer! My reason of course for searching for patents on the Athena products was to see if they contain androstenone et al, which can be more cheaply obtained elsewhere.

[Holmes]

Skeptic,

Outstanding post. The various points in your \"Nudge Theory\" are very well-taken and appreciated. I\'m glad to see someone else express it all that way.

AE/m might be a cost-effective solution if it works for you (hasn\'t done much for me--yet.) PI/m and SOE (gel) worked very well for me when I used that combo. Another good combo (as many others have mentioned) is NPA/m and WAGG (with or without NPA/w.) Just some thoughts...

Having said all this, hopefully one of the experts will chime in any minute now.../ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif)


Holmes

[Sacogoo]

skeptic writes:
<<Okay, here\'s the deal. I realize this is Yet Another Newbie Question, so I\'ll try to pack in as much information...>>

Sweet baby Jesus! We\'re going to have to help you tone down that analytical side before you\'re unleashed on the coeds at your school dripping in mones.

As far as the pheromones go, it\'s a complete crap shoot. You are just going to have to work through the process by trial and error, and find what works for you. (Much to your chargrin and Bruce\'s delight as this stuff ain\'t cheap.) Everybody\'s personal chemistry is different, and the different \'mone products are going to work differently on every single person. As an example, here are the \'mones that I\'m currently using and the effect that they have had on my wife:

SOE Gel Pack – conservatively applied (one pack lasts approximately six days): physically affectionate/sexually stimulated

NPA – Mixed with various colognes (Allure, Platinum Egoiste, Aqua di Gio) in ratios of 3:1, 4:1, 5:1, 6:1, 7:1: distant, aggressive, \"nasty\" behavior

PPA – three drops (two to neck, one to chest): touching, caressing

Andro 4.2 – straight spray: don’t touch me or I will start cutting off body parts; mixed with cologne at 6:1 ratio: mentally attentive, but not physically

AE – three drops (two to neck, one to chest): no noticeable effects, either positive or negative

These reactions are, in certain cases, completely opposite of what other individuals have experienced.

Looking at your situation, I would recommend the following products:

1. The Beginners Special
- Gets you The Edge spray, which is easier to apply and appropriately cover than it\'s cousin, NPA, as well as an atomizer, some Primal Oil and a Scent of Eros gel pack for sampling.

2. Alter Ego
- A good smelling and potent blend of the three main \'mones. While it has had no effect for me, there have been too many positive reactions posted by others not to give it a try.

3. PPA
- Like AE, it\'s a premixed topical solution that is potent and smells good.

While you\'re looking at around a hundred bones for the three, it\'s giving you a great mix of three completely different products that gives you a very good chance to find the one that works for you in the appropriate ratios.

However, just as an information point, while I could also be categorized as a shy person, I picked up a lot (and I mean A LOT) of girls/women over the years simply by getting drunk and getting over my initial inhibitions. (Suprisingly, the closing line of \"I would really like to take you back to my place and f#$%.\" worked extremely well more often than not. Sure, I ended up wearing a few drinks, but the possibility of sex with the winner of that nights\' bikini contest was worth the risk. :-) (I\'m only using pheromones to calm a pissed off spouse, not to pick up other women.)

Positive attitude, slightly aggressive sexual energy, loosening of the inhibitions, nice clothes and mones, and you\'ve got yourself a winner.

[franki]

</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />


As far as the pheromones go, it\'s a complete crap shoot. You are just going to have to work through the process by trial and error, and find what works for you. (Much to your chargrin and Bruce\'s delight as this stuff ain\'t cheap.) Everybody\'s personal chemistry is different, and the different \'mone products are going to work differently on every single person. As an example, here are the \'mones that I\'m currently using and the effect that they have had on my wife:



<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

Most of us think experimenting is half the fun. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[oscar]

skeptic,

Finding patents is fairly easy.
Finding the right pheromone can be hard.

All available U.S. patents can be found here:

http://www.uspto.gov/ (\"http://www.uspto.gov/\")

Here\'s one I\'ve bookmarked:

Patent Link (\"http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect2=PTO1&amp;Sect2=HITOFF&amp;p=1&amp;u=%2Fnetahtml%2 Fsearch-bool.html&amp;r=1&amp;f=G&amp;l=50&amp;d=PALL&amp;RefSrch=yes&amp;Query=PN %2F5155045http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect2=PTO1&amp;Sect2=HITOFF&amp;p=1&amp;u=%2Fnetahtml%2 Fsearch-bool.html&amp;r=1&amp;f=G&amp;l=50&amp;d=PALL&amp;RefSrch=yes&amp;Query=PN %2F5155045\")

And to find others that might have something to do with the Athena products you can do a search by \"inventor name\" for Cutler, Winnifred B.
___________________________

For an \"unscented\" additive to use with Tuscany I would recommend either NPA or AFA.
For a stand-alone, I\'d say AE.
Most economical? Buy NPA and spike your cologne. Four or five parts cologne to one part NPA.

Oscar /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Pancho1188]

Wow, someone wrote more than me! Amazing! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif I\'m testing out TE right now that came with my Newbie pack. I have the same stats as you (not very hairy or big, nice guy who likes talking to girls, etc.), so let me know if you get something that works. My experience last night had people a little friendlier to me than usual when using a few drops of TE. Still working on finding something to get the DIHL from women. I hope someone else can help you more.

PS:

</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
\"I would really like to take you back to my place and f#$%.\"

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

This is quite possibly the ballsiest thing I\'ve ever heard.

[skeptic]

Thanks all for the replies and the PMs. Keep them coming. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif I\'ll probably post a more detailed response later in the weekend.

Quick question for now though.. when I\'m first experimenting, might it be wise to test effects where the stakes are a bit lower, in other words around women I\'m not so interested in or random women? Not that I think it\'s likely, but I wouldn\'t want to trigger everlasting hatred in the ones that I definitely AM interested in. heh

And yes, I have been known to overanalyze things down to their component atoms.

[Sagacious1420]

</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
when I\'m first experimenting, might it be wise to test effects where the stakes are a bit lower, in other words around women I\'m not so interested in or random women?

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

Yes! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[Brian]

Hi skeptic,

I\'ll have to say, yours is the most detailed profile that I\'ve read on this site. Very clearly written and easy to understand.

Unfortunately, there are no clear answers to your questions.
Since we are all different, what works on one, may not on another. When you do find a mone that works for you, you will find the same thing with your targets, a mone that works on one target, may not work on another.

Because there are so many factors to consider, I will refrain from giving advice on any particular product. I can only tell you, that you will probably have to do some experimenting to determine which is right for you. There is no magic pill here, you will have to try different things to see what works well, and what doesn\'t. Few people have instant success. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif Good Luck!

Brian /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[PheroX]

ae/m doesn\'t do much for me when its by itself. I\'ve had better success with just a few drops of AFA and coolwater. I\'ve also had good luck with 2 drops of PI into my hair gel and then putting 1 drop mixed in with some lotion to get it spread out. The girls in art class kept looking my way and half kept playing with thier hair. In chemistry one girl that sat across the table was getting red and then started complaining to the teacher about being \"really hot\". I also noticed the hispanic women gave me long looks at lunch when i walked by them. PI seems to work very good for me and it as for most people. The biggest problem is the smell but i cover that with some fragrance oil like cool water or ck one. Good thing is if you don\'t think AE works for you, you could trade it in for something else

[CptKipling]

Nice post skeptic, it was an interesting read.

I liked what you said about nudges, quite an accurate description of how it works. There is no miracle, you still have to do some work yourself. The biggest nudge is on first impressions, but I\'m sure you will see others aswell.

As for product, AE is good, as is TE.

[a.k.a.]

skeptic,
I have a feeling Rogue Male could work for you.

First of all it’s very basic: just one powerful pheromone with a strong sexual signal. No complicated formulas to wrack your skeptical brains over.
If nothing else, it should get you noticed. (As a fellow 5’8” I can tell you that women’s radar tends to be set at 6’, and nothing overcomes this as well as Androstenone.)
I also think it could add a sort of “bad boy” edge to your androgyny. (It probably wouldn’t hurt to grow some facial hair and cultivate a somewhat ruffled/just-crawled-out-of-some-girl’s bed look.)
Another plus is that your anxiety might help you determine the proper dosage — which is the biggest challenge when working with Androstenone. The thing I’ve noticed is that something like 95% of the people I run into cary some form of anxiety in their bodies. (Given the state of the world, you’ve got to be crazy NOT to get a bit anxious from time to time.) It’s just that introverts tend to be more attuned to it, and less likely to vent it off on other people.
Given this “attunement”, a perfect dosage should make you feel a bit stimulated and possibly more confident. An OD will probably make you feel a bit anxious or tense.

If this doesn’t sound up your alley. SOE seems to be the most powerful product for loosening women up and stimulating conversation. In my experience it also makes women very trusting and compliant. Best of all it seems to erase their personal space, and kino works wonders when you wear the stuff. I’ve also given it my vote as best smelling love-scent product.
The only reason it’s not my first choice for you, is that you have to be somewhat extroverted to get the best results.

Good luck!

[a.k.a.]

PS For maximum results, get rid of that tummy — or at least wear baggy shirts. Older women might think it’s cute, but girls your age tend to get turned off.

[skeptic]

Thanks for the continuing posts and suggestions. It does seem that everyone is suggesting different things, heh. So I have some questions.

First, regarding overdosing. Is something like SOE fairly overdose-proof? I guess what I\'m asking is which products are the LEAST likely to cause a negative reaction, even if they don\'t cause a positive reaction? For example, if that\'s the case with SOE, I could start with that and then start applying small amounts of an androstenone product as needed.

Second, is AE scented and is there an unscented version? What is the ratio of the different pheromones in AE? I greatly prefer unscented products whereever possible, which I should have made more clear in my first post. I use unscented deodorant and so on. I prefer my cologne (when I wear it) to the \'cheap smells\' of various products and I\'m picky about how I smell, so... yeah. Unscented when possible, even if I have to use my cologne as cover due to its natural smell.

A couple clarifications, too. While I do have anxiety issues and described myself as a bit towards the introverted side... the anxiety can be almost totally eliminated with judicious use of meds, so it\'s not a major issue unless I\'m trying to limit my use of them and don\'t take enough and get into a situation, but that\'s pretty rare. For you folks that were talking in another thread about kava kava and valerian and whatnot.. eh, they sort of took the edge off for me, but nothing and I mean NOTHING works like valium, xanax and their assorted chemical siblings. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif Just use responsibly.

As for the introversion, I really am close to the middle and display characteristics of both.. if the mood and situation is right, I can talk and talk and stay out all night (though I don\'t like clubs for other reasons). If the atmosphere is less relaxed and it seems like I\'d be on the spot, then I don\'t approach as much. And regardless, I need downtime after interacting a lot like introverts do. So I\'m a hybrid.

I have a bit of facial hair, heh. At least where it will grow (another reason why I\'m suspicious of my testosterone, but due to other reasons I am going to be requesting a full endocrine workup as soon as my health insurance kicks in, so I will have an answer on that). Oh, and mutton chops too, which aren\'t trendy any more but I think they look good on me, and some girls do as well. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif I\'ve been messing around with my hair to go for a more messy but good look with moderate success.. I had long hair for years and years so finding the right length to do what I want with it is difficult.

As for my buddha belly.. well, it\'s not as big as it was, heh. That\'s related to medication. I need to start regular exercise for a whole variety of reasons including women, but it\'s really really hard for me to keep on a program for more than a few weeks without outside motivation, so I need to find myself a partner.

Finally, I wasn\'t completely forthcoming with my original post.. I definitely have my eye on one particular woman, and though it seems far away, the end of the semester isn\'t THAT far away, and who knows where she\'ll be after that. So I\'m looking to start fairly quickly here, probably with a \"low-risk\" product such as what I understand SOE might be.

[CptKipling]

Yes SOE is mostly over-dose proof, you have to be more converned with scent OD than the mones. If you are getting SOE, I would recommend TE (unscented) as a product that compliments it nicely.

[Holmes]

You probably don\'t want to spend this much, but there\'s also P10. Very concentrated (esp. in -none)...with careful use, should transform you into a walking ball-clanker.

Don\'t know if anyone\'s used SOE gel with P10...that might be interesting.

There are two versions of AE. The \"old\" version is a lot milder and the fragrance dies out fairly quickly. Far easier to cover up.

Holmes

[Sacogoo]

skeptic writes:
&lt;&lt;I definitely have my eye on one particular woman, and though it seems far away, the end of the semester isn\'t THAT far away, and who knows where she\'ll be after that. So I\'m looking to start fairly quickly here, probably with a \"low-risk\" product such as what I understand SOE might be.&gt;&gt;

I know that this might sound somewhat novel and possibly facetious, but have you thought about just asking her out right now LBP? (Life Before Pheromones.)

What\'s the worst that could happen? If she says no, then your in the same boat that you are paddling in right now, right? Be a little persistent, and maybe, just maybe, once you get the pheromones slathered on, she won\'t be able to resist you any more. (And you might find out that if you actually ask her out, and she actually says yes, and subsequently finds you charming in a quirky, neurotic kind of way, and falls in love with you, and ends up performing things to your body that only have happened in Thai massage/opium palors, and eventually bears you 13 children.)

The thing is, it ain\'t going to happen if you don\'t try. (And even with the pheromones, it\'s not likely that she\'s going to drop to her knees and beg you for your undying love in the middle of your Western Civilization class. (Although, it may actually happen like that. I remember my sophomore year when this girl in my sociology class (who I didn\'t even know was in the class) came up to me one day after class and asked me out. Ended up one of the coolest and wildest women I have ever known. Boderline S&amp;M fetish that had a rich dad who bought her a 911 for her college car. However, I ended up screwing that one up when she found a couple of wine glasses in the back of my car, and one had lipstick on it (she didn\'t wear makeup).)

Anyway, you\'re going to have to break the ice at sometime, and sooner is better than later. Just go ask her out for a cocktail or coffee and see where it goes. (Not to mince words, but stop being a wussy and get in the freaking game!)

[skeptic]

</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
I know that this might sound somewhat novel and possibly facetious, but have you thought about just asking her out right now LBP? (Life Before Pheromones.)


<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

Trust me, I\'ve thought about it, but there are very valid reasons that it will have to wait a while, which aren\'t changing.

As for my quirks, I guess I haven\'t given the impression too well since I\'m being honest about myself here, but I\'m actually pretty good at appearing normal until people get to know me. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[CJ01]

</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Boderline S&amp;M fetish that had a rich dad who bought her a 911 for her college car.

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
May I ask, what´s a 911 car? You don´t mean that she drove around in an ambulance or police car NO? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

[franki]

a Porsche 911 I guess

http://www2.us.porsche.com/english/usa/911/default.htm (\"http://www2.us.porsche.com/english/usa/911/default.htm\")

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

[Holmes]

No, a 911 car would be an ambulance.


Holmes

[skeptic]

</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Yes SOE is mostly over-dose proof, you have to be more converned with scent OD than the mones. If you are getting SOE, I would recommend TE (unscented) as a product that compliments it nicely.

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

Okay, I think I\'m beginning to formulate a plan. Let me know if I\'ve got this right, and then I have a few questions.

SOE is a ratio of 4:1 androstenol to androsterone, correct? And -nol and -rone are much less likely to cause negative reactions than -none?

If that\'s the case I may like to start with something like SOE and then \"spike\" it as needed with modest amounts of androstenone. So, questions.

What does SOE smell like? Is there an SOE \"clone\" that\'s unscented? If not, does the SOE fragrance fade or blend well with cologne?

What\'s the best unscented -none, NOT super ultra concentrated, in a form that\'s easy to apply? I am sort of wary of TE because the formula is secret or whatever. I definitely don\'t want to load myself up with -none. I think being able to control the amount would be best.

Oh, and finally, what\'s the content and ratio of the pheromones in WAGG?

[Brian]

</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
What\'s the best unscented -none, NOT super ultra concentrated, in a form that\'s easy to apply? I am sort of wary of TE because the formula is secret or whatever. I definitely don\'t want to load myself up with -none. I think being able to control the amount would be best.

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

AFA, would be your best bet for an unscented none product. As far as the wagg goes, it is unknown what the contents of it is. If you want to know the contents of the products on this site click the \"Pheromone Reference Material\" link on the top of virtually every page on this forum. You need to do some research of your own. The info is here, if you take the time to look for it. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Brian

[skeptic]

Yeah, I\'ve looked at the table multiple times comparing products. WAGG isn\'t listed.

[Icarus]

Spooky, ain\'t it?

S\'like it dun\'t exist!

Steve

[CptKipling]

</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Yes SOE is mostly over-dose proof, you have to be more converned with scent OD than the mones. If you are getting SOE, I would recommend TE (unscented) as a product that compliments it nicely.

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

Okay, I think I\'m beginning to formulate a plan. Let me know if I\'ve got this right, and then I have a few questions.

SOE is a ratio of 4:1 androstenol to androsterone, correct? And -nol and -rone are much less likely to cause negative reactions than -none?

If that\'s the case I may like to start with something like SOE and then \"spike\" it as needed with modest amounts of androstenone. So, questions.

What does SOE smell like? Is there an SOE \"clone\" that\'s unscented? If not, does the SOE fragrance fade or blend well with cologne?

What\'s the best unscented -none, NOT super ultra concentrated, in a form that\'s easy to apply? I am sort of wary of TE because the formula is secret or whatever. I definitely don\'t want to load myself up with -none. I think being able to control the amount would be best.

Oh, and finally, what\'s the content and ratio of the pheromones in WAGG?

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

I basically gave you a combo that works and aswers your \"plan\" (SOE and TE), if you dont trust it I dont know what to say. If you read around TE is one the most popular products, why are you wary? It\'s the most usable -none product besides PPA (which isnt as good IMO because it doesnt have the secrets), and it\'s cheap!

And dont be so worried about negative reactions, I can count the number of bad reactions on one hand from over a year of use.

[Sacogoo]

skeptic writes:
&lt;&lt;What\'s the best unscented -none, NOT super ultra concentrated, in a form that\'s easy to apply?&gt;&gt;

Andro 4.2. Spray bottle applicator that has a lot of \'none in the container (4.2 mg), but is diluted with 30 ml of alcohol. Easy to apply, and easy to control the application. Spreads the \'mone out over a larger area, making spot OD\'ing less likely. It also takes a cover scent well (easily masked).

BTW - I just got my latest shipment and just put on my WAGG-N. Smells potent, but it seems to be covered well with a small application of Chanel\'s Allure Homme. (I know that you are hesitant to purchase anything that does not list specific \"ingredients\", but this might be the \'mone you are looking for. The beneficial \"buddy\" qualities of WAGG, with a little shot of the \"sex me up hard and fast\" \'none. I know that as I sit typing this, I\'m starting to get a real rush from the WAGG-N. Just got a \"chill\" that went from head to toe, goosebumps, and all I\'m thinking about right now is laying some serious pipe. (Holy [censored] Bruce! What the hell did you put in this stuff?! I was thinking about going out this afternoon, but I don\'t think I can trust myself. My wife better get her ass back here ASAP or I might not be able to hold out much longer! Yikes! I am freaking RANDY! Did you puree Austin Powers and pour him in this bottle or something?!)

[skeptic]

Okay, I think I\'m going to try SOE gel + TE as my first purchase. Thanks everybody for all your suggestions and answers. I might end up diluting the TE so I can achieve finer dosage control of the -none, we\'ll see.

I think at first, assuming that the calculator is on point, I\'ll probably start with 1/3 packet of SOE + 1 spray of TE.

By the way, there are 30mL in a fluid oz, right?

[Brian]

</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
By the way, there are 30mL in a fluid oz, right?

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

That is correct. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Brian

[CptKipling]

</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Okay, I think I\'m going to try SOE gel + TE as my first purchase. Thanks everybody for all your suggestions and answers. I might end up diluting the TE so I can achieve finer dosage control of the -none, we\'ll see.

I think at first, assuming that the calculator is on point, I\'ll probably start with 1/3 packet of SOE + 1 spray of TE.

By the way, there are 30mL in a fluid oz, right?

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

You are right to want to dilute TE, I would be interested on what you find to be the optimal dilution/dosage for you.

[angeleyes]

You right the whole pheromones following is a crap shot. It does not matter what you mix it with how you wear it .it stinks. smells like CRAP! My boyfriend wore it and i couldnt stand to get near him...I can\'t believe you people whats wrong with you are yall such a bunch of losers to reley on such awful smelling stuff to be selfasured. to pick up the oposite sex.. i feel sorry for yall.if my boyfriend ever wore it again i would dump him...

[Brian]

WTF? Here\'s a question for you? Why did you bother to register on this forum? Was it to write that illegible post? I had to read it several times to understand what you were trying to say. It seems to me, that your the one with low self-esteem, the fact that you posted what you did, tells me that you did it to make yourself feel better about your own inadequacies. You made a lot of statements with nothing to back them up. If you were to dump your boyfriend for wearing phero\'s again, something tells me that it wouldn\'t be a great loss to him. You\'ll probably be doing him a favor. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[Sacogoo]

Brian,

I \'ve got no problem with what angeleyes wrote. She\'s entitled to her opinion, and she actually made some very valid points. In fact, prior to purchasing and using the pheromones, I was of the same opinion that she was - the only people using these things were sad losers who couldn\'t get laid on their own without help. However, after acquiring the pheromones and reading and participating on this board so that I could gain a proper understanding of how to use and apply the pheromones, I have quickly come to appreciate their existence.

If angeleyes would do a little research, she\'ll find that most individuals are not \"getting laid\" with them, but rather they help in breaking down or overcoming barriers (socio-economic, appearence, etc.) and help them gain a greater understanding of who the other individuals are at a more base/natural level. They also help in providing a level of confidence and self-esteem (for both men and women, as both sexes utilize pheromones). One man\'s bottle of The Edge is another mans Dodge Viper. Ego boosters, attractants, etc. Same thing. Although, people using pheromones are actually trying to appeal to people on a more intimate and emotional level, versus the guy in the Ferrari, who is trying to appeal to the visual and status level.

She also has had a negative experience with pheromones, likely due to her boyfriend who apparently didn\'t have the proper understanding of their use and how they should be applied.

Don\'t give up too quickly angeleyes. Look at pheromones with an open mind and you may yet end up mixing your own phero concoctions.

[CptKipling]

</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
You right the whole pheromones following is a crap shot. It does not matter what you mix it with how you wear it .it stinks. smells like CRAP! My boyfriend wore it and i couldnt stand to get near him...I can\'t believe you people whats wrong with you are yall such a bunch of losers to reley on such awful smelling stuff to be selfasured. to pick up the oposite sex.. i feel sorry for yall.if my boyfriend ever wore it again i would dump him...

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

I suspect a troll myself, but if im wrong dont shoot me!

But she did call me a loser...lol. Dont you just love sweeping statements, how can anyone qualify that statement without knowing me, or anyone else on the forum?

[cuddlebear]

Here we go again, another \"snake oil\" post ... It doesn\'t bother me that some don\'t believe about pheros, it really doesn\'t ... I would like to thank a certain forum member for bringing this thread to my attention, because it gives me an opportunity to assure ANYONE who thinks that these things are placebos that THEY ARE NOT. I have had experiences with mones (Nol especially) that have proven to me, for the remainder of my earthly existence, that these products DO indeed provide social and sexual results that, with me anyway, DO NOT HAPPEN WITHOUT THEM.

I will assume that Angeleyes is a legitimate poster, although I can\'t imagine why someone would start their tenure on the forum with that kind of post.

And BTW, it is possible THAT YOUR BOYFRIEND O\'D!

There are quite a few posters who have been frustrated in their efforts to find the right mone mix, to some extent I believe we all are, but if these things were just snake oil, do you really believe that the Hit Squad and things of that nature could continue to exist??

OK, off the soapbox ...

Cuddles

[Holmes]

Post deleted by Holmes

[franki]

Hello Guys, don\'t get all worked up because someone calls you a loser!

[Elana]

Troll.....no question about it.

[franki]

Threads with trolls are always fun.. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Personally I want to see a few more posts of this user before I call him/her a troll.

[Elana]

</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Threads with trolls are always fun..

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\"> agreed /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[Icarus]

What\'s a troll?

[Holmes]

</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
What\'s a troll?

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

Second cousin to the troglodyte.


Holmes

[Icarus]

No really... I\'ve seen it said all over this board...

Is is some specific kind of poster?

[metroman]

Look who cares if shes a troll, troglodyte, gremlin or gnome...the fact is we need sceptics &amp; I\'m glad for her scepticism...If everyone believed in the efficacy of mone use we\'d all be canceling each other out...Glad to have you on board angel eyes &amp; keep spreading the word that mones dont work... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Holmes]

</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
If everyone believed in the efficacy of mone use we\'d all be canceling each other out...

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

Very good point. But, still, what\'s a troll?


Holmes

[Brian]

</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Look who cares if shes a troll, troglodyte, gremlin or gnome...the fact is we need sceptics &amp; I\'m glad for her scepticism...If everyone believed in the efficacy of mone use we\'d all be canceling each other out...Glad to have you on board angel eyes &amp; keep spreading the word that mones dont work...

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

Being skeptical is one thing, calling everyone a loser who uses mones, is just ignorant. I was skeptical at first too, but it never entered my mind that those who use them are losers. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Brian

[Holmes]

</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Being skeptical is one thing, calling everyone a loser who uses mones, is just ignorant.

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

Also true. (I was biting my tongue--ouch!)


Holmes

[belgareth]

</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
If everyone believed in the efficacy of mone use we\'d all be canceling each other out...

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

Very good point. But, still, what\'s a troll?


Holmes

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

Lives under a bridge in the children\'s poem \"Billy Goats Gruff.\" Also, creatures of the mountains created by Suaron in \"The Hobbit\" When exposed to sunlight they turn to stone. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[belgareth]

</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Look who cares if shes a troll, troglodyte, gremlin or gnome...the fact is we need sceptics &amp; I\'m glad for her scepticism...If everyone believed in the efficacy of mone use we\'d all be canceling each other out...Glad to have you on board angel eyes &amp; keep spreading the word that mones dont work...

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

Being skeptical is one thing, calling everyone a loser who uses mones, is just ignorant. I was skeptical at first too, but it never entered my mind that those who use them are losers. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Brian

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

Do you really care what she calls You?

[Holmes]

</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />

Lives under a bridge in the children\'s poem \"Billy Goats Gruff.\" Also, creatures of the mountains created by Suaron in \"The Hobbit\" When exposed to sunlight they turn to stone. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

Well, Steve, there ya go. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif


Holmes

[oscar]

angeleyes,

I\'m curious. In the two and a half weeks since you registered as a member of this forum did you read some/any of the posts? Did you NOT come to realize that too large an application of pheromones WILL smell bad?
How about your boyfriend, the guy who wore the pheros. Did he figure out that it wasn\'t a good idea to dump a load of pheros on himself without knowing what he was doing?
Was HE checking the forum for advice?
Or were you advising him?
Why wouldn\'t HE be the one to come on the board and tell us what you told us?
Or, are you hinting to us that your boyfriend \"isn\'t too bright\"?
More or less twice.

Oscar /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Sacogoo]

</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
angeleyes,

I\'m curious. In the two and a half weeks since you registered as a member of this forum did you read some/any of the posts? Did you NOT come to realize that too large an application of pheromones WILL smell bad?
How about your boyfriend, the guy who wore the pheros. Did he figure out that it wasn\'t a good idea to dump a load of pheros on himself without knowing what he was doing?
Was HE checking the forum for advice?
Or were you advising him?
Why wouldn\'t HE be the one to come on the board and tell us what you told us?
Or, are you hinting to us that your boyfriend \"isn\'t too bright\"?
More or less twice.

Oscar /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

More than likely, she busted the dude redhanded with \'mones, and was trying to find out information on them. Probably ended up on this forum as a result of a web search, and found out that guys (and girls) are using them in an attempt to get laid via subterfuge. At this point she\'s pissed off at her boyfriend sneaky, underhanded methods of attempting to get into her pretty pink panties, forces him to flush his expensive \'mones down the drain, apologize profusely, and live in her dog house for a couple of weeks. Since she likes the guy enough to keep him around, she kicks his butt, but not enough to fully extinguish her rage. Thus she takes out her remaining wrath on the entire pheromone using cult of personality (a.k.a - the Love-Scent forum contributors).

Hey, I can understand. I\'d be pissed if some chick was dosing my cocktail with ruffies in an effort to drag me back to her apartment so that she can go at me with a John Holmes sized strap-on, and she probably looks at this as simply a minor variant on that type of invasion of personal privacy/space/whatever.

[Icarus]

</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />

Lives under a bridge in the children\'s poem \"Billy Goats Gruff.\" Also, creatures of the mountains created by Suaron in \"The Hobbit\" When exposed to sunlight they turn to stone. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

Well, Steve, there ya go. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif


Holmes

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

uhhh... Great /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif I just thought it meant something different when referring to a forum poster.

[AzMike]

</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />

Lives under a bridge in the children\'s poem \"Billy Goats Gruff.\" Also, creatures of the mountains created by Suaron in \"The Hobbit\" When exposed to sunlight they turn to stone. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

Well, Steve, there ya go. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif


Holmes

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

uhhh... Great /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif I just thought it meant something different when referring to a forum poster.



<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

If you want a long definition of Internet Troll, go to this URL:

http://www.4reference.net/encyclopedias/wikipedia/Internet_troll.html (\"http://www.4reference.net/encyclopedias/wikipedia/Internet_troll.html\")

This definition starts out as follows:

On the Internet, a troll is a person who posts messages that create controversy or an angry response without adding content to the discussion, often intentionally. Though technically different from flaming, which is an unmistakable direct personal attack, trolls often resort to innuendo or misdirection in the pursuit of their objective, which is to create controversy for its own sake, discredit those with whom they disagree, or sabotage discussion by creating an intimidating atmosphere. Note that this is a highly subjective term, as everyone is affected differently by the nature of the term deemed a \"troll\". Originally this term applied to people who were intentionally posting flamebait, by analogy with the fishing technique of trolling: metaphorically, these people were dragging a conversational lure through the group, hoping for a response. The concept of \"this person is trolling our newsgroup\" became shortened to \"this person is a troll\", and picked up the association of the monster trolls of folklore. Trolling mostly maintains its earlier meaning of posting messages specifically in order to elicit a particular response, usually anger or argument.

AzMike

[Holmes]

Thanks AzMike.


Holmes

[belgareth]

Darn, it was so much more fun to visualize them as hairy, ape-like creatures with long arms hiding in the dank recesses under a bridge. It just seems so much more appropriate. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[Holmes]

It does, actually! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif


Holmes

[Irish]

Since you’re interested in the research, look over the recent work of McClintock, Sobel, and Savic. Very clear and impressive evidence of how phero exposure affects the brain, and how those effects are gender-specific. There’s also good evidence from the Japanese that certain phero alter sex hormones in women, and a European study showing male testosterone spikes on exposure to female copulins. Humans have scent glands, and the chemicals they produce have a demonstrable affect on other humans’ endocrine and CN systems.

Of course this work is in it’s infancy, and the ‘language’ of pheros is nowhere near ‘translation’. But since the affected areas seem to be related to sex, and phero production really kicks in at puberty, well, it’s not to much of a leap to think that human pheros affect our sexuality and response.

You are quite right to then question how much of an effect are we talking about? That will be worked out more specifically in years to come, but as an upper limit on phero effects one can look at the extent to which human sexuality is controlled by hormones in general. There’s a tedious recent thread here dealing with that, but suffice it to say that hormonal shifts certainly influence our sexual motivation, but the response is much less affected by hormonal shifts than the it is in lower mammals. I’d rate the effect as a bit more than your ‘nudge’, but not a lot more. We still have to deal with a woman’s conscious mind…but pheros are important in the overall approach (as is anything that affects her hormone levels, like physical touch).

Anyway, there is good science that pheros have an effect, and we can assume they influence sexual attraction. Pheros are one of your weapons, but certainly not the entire arsenal.

Back to some things you mentioned. There is forum wisdom here about the effects of certain products, which you can verify with your own experimentation. -Nol is thought to increase friendliness, perhaps also along with some -rone (SoE). It’s hard to say exactly, since the effects can be different on the same woman at different times in her cycle. One thing is sure – nol affects hormone release rates in women when they are exposed. You’ll probably have to try it, and at different dosages, to see what behavioral effects you notice.

Products containing -dienone can be expected to have the brain-activating effects noted by Savic and the others. McClintock also showed psychological effects on women, such as mood upswings. I find the effect subtle when I wear it, but the research has convinced me there’s something going on in her brain’s sexual areas, whether I notice overt outward manifestations or not. I almost always have some -dienone on these days.

-None is definitely masculine, and I find it unpleasant except in very small doses. The research is sketchiest about -none, although I have noticed responses from some women when I’m wearing just a little -none. Too much without effective cologne cover just makes you smell bad, IMO.

NPA/TE have a secret ingredient, and I must say I have had some aggressive responses from girls while wearing it – responses that are out of character for some of the girls I know. But unfortunately these products also smell very bad, so must be used in moderation with some cover scent. I recommend them highly for experimentation – they are the products that initially convinced me that pheros work.

You described your personality type in detail. Since you have such a clear understanding of that, you may want to try pheros that help you project certain things in certain situations. At times you may want to reinforce friendliness, other times you may want to project aggressive masculinity which you think is somewhat counter to your basic personality. Since you like intelligent women, you may even want to send mixed signals (tough yet friendly, etc.), the type of paradox that fascinates the brighter women (waste of time on the dumber ones – they like things simple). Play with your image like a woman plays with makeup and clothes, and use pheros as one tool to support the signals you want to send. Human beings read all sorts of conscious and unconscious signals (not just olfactory).

Right now science has demonstrated that pheros have an effect on human beings; the precise meaning of what they mean in different mixtures and contexts is open to future exploration. Good luck on your phero journey…I encourage you to read up on the recent science, and give it a try for yourself.

[skeptic]

Thanks Irish for an interesting reply. I came back after a few days and saw 28 new on this thread, but unfortunately ... well, I\'m sure you saw. heh. I\'m curious if you have URLs to the newer research since I was digging around on the web and couldn\'t find much other than the few old ones, mainly due to \"Google pollution\" by loads of shady pheromone sites.

BTW, I did search the patent database as one user suggested for patents by Cutler (actually before he suggested it, but I tried again just in case) and came up with nothing specific on pheromones as an attractant, but one patent on the use of pheromones to regulate the menstrual cycle.

I\'m going to be starting another thread I think, since this one attracted a troll. :-P

[CptKipling]

Ed - just missed the last page where the troll question was answered /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif